Paul: I see a good point in your comments... What is diabetes? At what point
do we call it a disease when it requires treatment? That is the prevaling
thought.

When we start losing beta cell function?

Insulin resistence?

Perhaps pre-diabetes should be monitored?

On the other hand what are you saying about eating glycemic foods such as
fruits and vegatables? I see you say you eat them.


Ellis: [Yes, I eat fruits and vegetables. They are not POISON. What is
POISON is to RAISE YOUR GLUCOSE LEVELS, in theory even 100 is "high"...
It is like temperature... 75 is comfortable, 80 is not going to kill you
but perhaps it is cooking you a little faster... 95 is pretty hot... 120
is extremely hot... and once upon a time, I was in a desert wind that hit
us at over 140 degrees Fahrenheit. I was still alive, for a while, but
I think I might have died if I had stayed in that heat for a few hours.

Similarly, I think that 70 to 90 is the optimum range for blood glucose
levels, because although we age, we also NEED the glucose for energy...
less than 70 I feel a little weak, and I have read that less than 25
you lose conciousness... so... 70 to 90 is the optimum range... anything
above that becomes progressively "hotter" and worse, and I THINK it
causes us more and more damage... I base this on what happens to diabetics,
ie, if Dr. Bernstein says he has seen that 120 mg/dl is BAD, and we KNOW
that 180 and above causes KIDNEY PROBLEMS ("Deathly") then 140 has to be
worse than 120, 160 has to be worse than 140 but not as bad as 180, etc.

So... I EAT FRUITS but I try not to EAT SO MUCH FRUITS that I raise my
glucose levels too high. I also inject insulin, which also keeps my
glucose levels from rising too high, and if they are "high" (100, 120,
etc.) I inject insulin again, to get them back down to 70 to 90 FASTER.

If I eat a fruit, I am VERY CAREFUL not to eat too much, because it is
EASY to eat too much delicious fruits. But I love fruits. I love mangoes,
but I can only have one slice of a mango. That is far less than a whole
mango, and THAT takes a lot of will power! I grew up climbing mango trees.
I risked my life many times when I was a young boy, climbing mango trees
to get a mango. Today, I won't eat a whole mango at one sitting.

As for vegetables... I simply can't eat enough vegetables to raise my
glucose levels too much. Even the "6.25%" on my Carbohydrate Thermometer
is too high for lettuce, spinach, and many, many vegetables. I never
eat as much as 300 grams of vegetables in one meal... after all, I am
also eating chicken and fish, etc. Vegetables are a side dish, not the
main dish. So most of my "good meals" are perhaps 20 grams of carbs,
including the main dish, the salads and vegetables, etc. That will raise
my glucose levels to 110 to 120, except it doesn't because I inject insulin.
- Ellis]


Paul: Don't eat anything that causes high BS? No, of course not but I tell
my kids, and this may be poof, I tell them eat carbs with other food groups,
protein & fats, never on an empty stomach since that is bound to cause insulin
cycles.

Ellis: [I used to think this was so... but it really doesn't make that much
difference. A little, perhaps... if you get some insulin out into the blood
with protein, then eat the carbs... maybe... but what REALLY counts is the
TOTAL grams of carbs, and THAT IS REALLY EASY TO CALCULATE using the
Carbohydrate Thermometer.

http://www.rajeun.net/carbotherm.html

You want to do your kids a big favor? Teach them to use the Carbohydrate
Thermometer. There is NOTHING so useful to me to predict glucose levels as
what I have learned calculating carbs using the Carbohydrate Thermometer.

And PREDICTING YOUR GLUCOSE LEVELS is really the single most important thing
for you to learn to do, if you are really serious about avoiding high glucose
levels and diabetes (according to Dr. Bernstein, who I quoted before). - Ellis]



Paul: You also have to factor in genetics, some folks can handle more carbs.

Ellis: [You know what, Paul? I don't really care so much about genetics.
If you eat correctly, I think you can avoid "inheriting" diabetes, or at
least postpone it... until after you are dead.

BOTH of my parents were diabetics. My father injected insulin for more
than 30 years, and my mother should have injected insulin (but her doctors
told her to control it with diet and pills, which really didn't work...
but I didn't know enough about diabetes to give an opinion in those days.)

In any case... I SHOULD become a diabetic according to that theory that we
inherit diabetes, but I think it MIGHT BE that diabetes is NOT really
inherited, and that now that I am trying to slow the advance of diabetes
to a crawl, I might die before I get diabetes... except that I also am
trying to live to age 100 well, and if I get to 100 well, I might bet
to 110, or 120... so I really do think I will get diabetes SOME DAY, and
that is when I will start losing the battle against aging, so eventually
I think diabetes will kill me, and everybody who is on a long successful
anti aging program, it will probably be diabetes that gets us in the end.

What is really inherited is the same diet as our parents... My mother was
born in Egypt and she was French... and she was a great, great cook... I
mean, really outstanding... I ate the most delicious meals I have ever
eaten anywhere, better than any French restaurant, in my mother's house.

But that meant great spaghetti, great rice with chicken, delicious potatoes
with Friday Night chicken, wonderful kibbes... and French fried potatoes...
and waffles and pancakes, and Mexican and Italian and Chinese and French and
Panamanian and Indian food... it was all HEAVILY CARBOHYDRATES... I thought
that was great, because that was also how the Food Guide Pyramid said we
should eat, too.

But when I bought a glucose meter, that was the beginning of the end for
all those fantastic delicious meals for me. Once I learned to use the
glucose meter, and interpret glucose levels as strictly as I do now, I
cannot eat like my mother used to eat, because now I know it raises my
glucose levels out the roof. I still eat delicious meals, but they are
not the same delicious meals as before.

That's why I think I would have "inherited" diabetes, because I would have
been EATING LIKE MY MOTHER... And that is why NOW I think I might have
broken the cycle: I am NOT eating like I used to eat when my mother planned
the menu.... I am eating so that I don't raise my glucose levels and so
that I still get all the nutrients my body needs. - Ellis]


One interesting fact, and this supports your idea, is how the Indians in
Arizona once exposed to refined foods develop very high proportion of
diabetes. Again there can be other factors but a person has to think
this can have significant relevance.

Another factor, what about excercise after carbs or excercise period? Does
that reduce the impact on BS? I would think so but I can't remember all my
physiology.

Ellis: [Yes, of course, exercise burns away some of the glucose, so it
lowers blood glucose.]

I do think you make a provacative argument about the effects of excessive
carbs but there remain some gaps in your thoughts. IMHO.

Having said all that, I am like most, I limit my carbs and I eat them with
other food groups, slowing absorption, less chance of insulin peaks and
valleys, and excercise. Excercise improves carb metabolism and again, stay
away from too many carbs for maintaing ideal weight.

If you can measure decreased beta cell function in a select group eating
excessive glycemic foods groups, you may be able to say your's or Bernsteins
theory has validity.

Paul

Ellis: [Heck, that has been shown many times... It is not necessary to
reinvent warm water... we know high carbs raise glucose levels, and we
know high glucose levels are bad for diabetics... we also know that
high glucose levels for a long time increases your "chance" of diabetes
(actually, it just brings it on earlier and faster, because your chance
of diabetes or pre-diabetes, or insulin resistance, or circulatory system
damage (diabetes) or other illnesses not-called-diabetes-but-they-are-
diabetes, is 100% in the LONG RUN if you continue to raise your glucose
levels high up.

Thanks for writing. - Ellis]



Paul Villaret wrote:

Paul: You may be right, but I have not seen any evidence that concretely
supports your theory. I know of some very obese folks who do not have
diabetes.

Ellis: [They are not diabetic "by definition"... however if they are "insulin
resistant" or "pre-diabetic", or if they have a high morning fasting glucose
level, then they really are diabetic already, "according to Ellis" but not to
the more lax A.D.A.... it doesn't matter what a "definition" says they are,
that is only a cut-off point where they decide to treat you for diabetes... I
am trying to treat my "diabetes" long before I get to that point, before I
am "defined" as being diabetic... if they have lost beta cells due to high
glucose levels caused by eating excess carbs, then I am right, whether I
prove it or not... I will bet 1 to 100 that 100% of all obese persons have
lost "many" beta cells because they have eaten excess carbs since many years
ago. It almost doesn't have to be proven... but I suppose a way to prove it
is to ask a pathologist to tell us if he can see ANY beta cell loss in obese
cadavers that did NOT "have diabetes" according to the "definition" of the
A.D.A.

Of course they must have... is there anybody who is over 30 years old who
still has a new-born pancreas? So... if high glucose levels lost them ONE
beta cell, then I am right. You might argue that one beta cell is not so
bad, and I might agree... but we're talking about whether excess carbs caused
the death of that one cell or not... Is it really DANGEROUS for diabetics
for me to say that excess carbs CAUSES diabetes, or not...?

According to Dr. Bernstein, CAPITALS BELOW, this is exactly what happens.
(quoting Dr. Bernstein is not scientific proof, but I have always said that
I am only saying what I can back up by what he says...)

Dr. Bernstein, Diabetes Solution, p. 42, first edition

"YOU WILL NOTE THAT IN SOME LITERATURE ON DIABETES "NORMAL" MAY BE
DEFINED AS 60 - 120 MG/DL, OR EVEN AS HIGH AS 140 MG/DL. THIS "NORMAL"
IS ENTIRELY RELATIVE. NO NONDIABETIC WILL HAVE BLOOD SUGAR LEVELS AS
HIGH AS 140 MG/DL **EXCEPT AFTER CONSUMING A LOT OF CARBOHYDRATES**."

He does not say "simple" carbohydrates. He says "a lot of carbohydrates."
He does not make a distinction between simple or complex carbs, just "a
lot of carbohydrates." Then he says in the same paragraph:

"DESPITE THE DESIGNATION "NORMAL" AN INDIVIDUAL FREQUENTLY DISPLAYING
A BLOOD SUGAR LEVEL OF 140 MG/DL IS A GOOD CANDIDATE FOR FULL-BLOWN
TYPE II DIABETES. I HAVE SEEN "NONDIABETICS" WITH SUSTAINED BLOOD
SUGARS AVERAGING 120 MG/DL DEVELOPING DIABETIC COMPLICATIONS."

Ellis: Q.E.D.

Besides... what is REALLY important is the ability to PREDICT glucose
levels, and by not wondering about whether a carb is "complex" or "simple"
but just looking at the NUMBER OF GRAMS of carbs in the food I am about to
eat, I can usually PREDICT my glucose levels easily, plus or minus 20 points,
which is MORE THAN ENOUGH ACCURACY to help me to DECIDE if I should eat it
or not.

If I would eat 800 grams of COMPLEX VEGETABLE SALAD I am sure to raise my
glucose levels... in fact... I will eat 50 grams of complex carbs without
injecting insulin before, and I'll tell you what it does to MY glucose
levels... Would it be o.k. if I drink 500 grams of carrot juice with the
fiber (500 grams raw carrots contain 50 grams carbs, according to U.S.D.A.
food guide tables, and 3% fiber) instead of 500 grams of whole raw carrots?

I predict it will raise my glucose levels as much as 400 grams of ORANGE
JUICE did, which is as much as 50 grams of SUGAR does, which is somewhere
close to 150 mg/dl. - Ellis]

Paul: As I said before, I believe that excessive carb intake is a factor in
the development of Type II, but I don't believe your statement to be supported
by any data in the medical literature.

I agree it is cetainly healthier to avoid the yo-yo insulin cycles that carbs
induce, and I understand you are saying this is only your opinion. Is it not
adequate to say too many carbs can be harmful to one's health?

I think you can vigously debate your theory to what end? Who cares? It is
unhealthy to eat bundles of carbs but there are too many other factors that
must be considered in your statement that everyone gets diabetes from too many
carbs. Everyone has an opinion, Ellis, but it seems we are better off having
scientific support of our comments?

Paul

Ellis [Yes, you are right. However, this is one of the least "DANGEROUS" of
my ideas... Taking insulin to PREVENT or POSTPONE diabetes when I know I am
not a diabetic is much more RADICAL than "saying" carbohydrates CAUSE
diabetes, and it hasn't bothered Randy as much as this. If Randy had been
telling me that TAKING INSULIN is dangerous, and I am spreading a dangerous
idea by saying it here, at least I can see his point of view. But to say
that saying that an excess amount of carbs is the CAUSE of diabetes, without
making it clear that there are SIMPLE carbs and COMPLEX carbs... it really
isn't a "dangerous" statement.

I have never actually SEEN a carb, so I really don't have any idea what is
so "complex" about the carbs in lettuce and carrots, or what is so "simple"
about the carbs in sugar and honey... It is much easier to say you can eat
lettuce and carrots because they contain 6.25% carbs on the AVERAGE, and you
can't eat sugar (100%) or honey (75%) or bread (50%) or potatoes (25%)
because they contain too much carbs, than to be wondering how much FIBER
they have.

As I said, by coincidence perhaps, the lower part of the Carbohydrate
Thermometer is called "complex carbs" and the higher part is called "simple
carbs" by somebody else... and we both agree on eating Vegetables... so
what is so darn "dangerous" and "B.S." about not making a distinction about
"complex" and "simple" carbs?

Or not mentioning the "glycemic index"... Who cares about the "glycemic
index" of a food, if the glucose meter gives you the FINAL WORD? You can't
argue with the result of the glucose meter, which is why I always tell people
to TEST their assumptions about foods with the glucose meter. - Ellis]




Paul Villaret wrote:

It seems to me Ellis is simply saying Carbs of any type taken in excess can
influence the development of Type II.

Ellis: [I say more than that... I say that carbs of any type taken in excess
definitely CAUSE the development of Type II diabetes. I have no doubt about
this, but it is only "according to Ellis". If I am mistaken, it doesn't
matter. It is a good explanation, says I... We know high glucose levels are
bad. We know excess carbs causes high glucose levels. So if you try to avoid
diabetes by avoiding excess carbohydrates which we know causes insulin spikes,
and if I am mistaken, it really doesn't harm you that you avoided the spikes
in glucose levels. - Ellis]

He is also saying to reduce carbs for that purpose. I am not sure why the
good doctor is reading more into his comments.

I find it hard to fault any of Ellis' comments unless we are looking for
something else......

Paul PharmD









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