Lorne: Pamela,

Lorne: I've been following the discussions on HGH with Ellis and
I must say that the recommendations are far too simplistic and
frankly dangerous. HGH can be a problematic hormone to take,
especially if your own body is producing sufficient quantities.

Ellis: "Frankly dangerous..." ? Tell us about it. What are
the dangers of taking injectible growth hormone?

Lorne: You should also be aware that injecting HGH will most
definitely affect the production of other hormones in your body.
All of these chemical messengers work in concert together to tell
us when to support muscle function, to when to stop eating. We don't
individually know how we will be affected because each individual
is different, metabolizes additional hormones uniquely and will
have our homeostasis affected in our own particular way.

Don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of hormone supplementation in
a form that is relevant for the client. But for me testing and
measurement are key. Elite body-builders take heed to this warning,
since they measure minute amounts to avoid any of the side affects
of excess HGH which I'm sure you've heard about.


Ellis: Elite body-builders are taking doses of 8 to 15 iu of
growth hormone per day... even more... These are not the doses that
I or anybody on this forum has ever recommended. In nearly 11 years
taking growth hormone nearly every day, and getting feedback from
persons on this forum, Rejuvenation, I disagree with your assessment
that growth hormone is "a problematic hormone to take." or that my
recommendations are "frankly dangerous"...

Ellis: You are writing to a forum which is specifically for the
discussion between doctors and persons who are using growth hormone,
and it is specifically not to discuss secretagogues because there
are 100 times as many forums to discuss the use of secretagogues...
for example your forum.

Ellis: But if you want to debate the use of secretagogues vs. the
use of authentic injectible growth hormone, then say so.

Ellis: It is very easy to say growth hormone is a very dangerous
hormone to use... but tell it to the people who have never used
growth hormone before, because those of us who use authentic
injectible growth hormone have not had any problem using it, and
we have had many many benefits.

Ellis: HGH probably does affect other hormones, but please tell us
which ones you are talking about, and tell us how it affects them.
And show us how this is dangerous, and what we should do about it.
Don't beat about the bush. Tell us why injectible growth hormone
is dangerous.


Lorne: Certainly, at low levels, our bodies will adjust and excrete
what is not necessary and those who take huge amounts will suffer
greater consequences.


Ellis: I never heard that our body will excrete "what is not
necessary" and I don't recommend "huge amounts"... Tell us first
what is a "huge amount" because you seem to know zero about the
use of injectible growth hormone. And tell us what are those
greater consequences that occur, and at what dose do these
consequences occur.


Lorne: Where I do differ with Ellis is on precursors and
secretagogues.

Ellis: You differ with Ellis fundamentally and on everything.
I don't think you use injectible growth hormone yourself...
Please tell us if you do, and if you do, please tell us what
is your dose, and what has been your experience... If not, don't
criticize it until you know what you are saying. Right now you
don't know what you are saying... but YOU THINK YOU KNOW what you
are saying... Except you came to a forum with doctors and patients
who are using growth hormone, and you are the one who seems to
know the least, and you presume to tell us what to do.

Lorne: My objective with my clients is to have the body produce as
much of it's own key hormones to allow our own bodies to get into
balance before introducing large shifts of a hormone (whether
testosterone, estrogen, melatonin or otherwise). I would want to
measure the ability of the gland in question (and subsequent downstream activity
of related hormone production and many ARE
related) to produce more of the hormone that is lacking and only
after identifying that my own system is unable to produce sufficient
quantities of a hormone (such as HGH where studies have shown weight
bearing exercise causes the substantial, almost 1500% more,
production of HGH).

Ellis: It sounds very good. But the bottom line is that
secretagogues don't work as well as injectible growth hormone, for
the objective that we have, which is to repair the body. They don't
cause the physical benefits that we are looking for. You don't
know what "dose" of growth hormone a secretagogue might be causing,
and you don't know if it is still working. You also don't know what
else or what other hormones it might be stimulating.

I am not against the use of secretagogues... but they are not
what we are looking for, for ourself. They are fine for you.
Not for me. Thanks.


Lorne: Unfortunately, anyone that refuses to take these measures of
accuracy and monitoring are just kidding themselves. There is no
quick fix or magic pill (as with injections of HGH, or the
substantially less effective ingestion of HGH,


Ellis: "ingestion of HGH"??? There is no authentic growth hormone
that can be ingested. It is totally ineffective, not "less
effective." You need to learn a bit more about growth hormone
before you come here to preach to us.

Lorne: don't waste your money as serum levels of the hormone are not
statistically significant when taken through the digestive track.
You're better off going through sub-lingual delivery if you don't
like needles or don't need the rapid uptake and substantially greater
quantities.

Ellis: You are totally off. You know nothing about authentic growth
hormone. Sub-lingual delivery does not work either. It is not
growth hormone. It is fake. It is a scam. There is no other way
to take growth hormone than through "needles"... and there is NO
REASON not to "like needles."

I wonder: Have YOU ever injected yourself with a 31 gauge needle?


Lorne: That is the scourge of the American fantasy with anti-aging
beauty and physiology.

Ellis: The scourge of the American fantasy is people who don't
use growth hormone and who think they know that it is dangerous
who want to preach to people who do use growth hormone to say
that what we want to do is a fantasy.

There is no "scourge of the American fantasy with anti-aging
beauty and physiology." The persons who are attempting to stay
well and staying healthy in a young body do not have to ask you
for permission and we don't have to ask you to forgive us for
trying to stay young and healthy. I think it is GREAT that many
Americans (and many other persons around the world too...) want to
stay young and healthy... and I am glad that they do what it takes
to stay beautiful with a good body...

If that means secretagogues, then that is fine with me... There
are some who want to play in the major leagues, and we use growth
hormone and other hormones... and also Botox or Fraxell or Thermage,
or plastic surgery, whatever it takes... to me that is not a
"scourge" it is A GOOD THING to want to stay healthy and young...

Lorne: It takes a well adjusted diet, with supplementation, exercise
that is designed for the objectives at hand (not just cardio. That is
frankly, to me a waste of time if you are looking to increase muscle
tone, mass, hormone production, etc...) and mental stimulation since
a healthy mind will support a healthy body (limited stress,
supporting nutrients and the like).

Ellis: "Mental stimulation" will do nothing for the mind. It is
interesting, and I am all for it, but I don't fool myself to think
that it is helping me to fight aging. I like to play chess, and I
like to read, and I like many mentally stimulating activities but
these activities do not prevent the loss of neurons, which is
what we need to have a healthy mind which will support a healthy
body.

What DOES prevent the loss of neurons (and which you also know
zero about...) is: KEEP YOUR GLUCOSE LEVELS BETWEEN 70 AND 100,
(preferably between 70 and 85) AS LONG AS YOU CAN FOR AS LONG AS
YOU CAN ALL DAY, EVERY DAY. That means: EAT CORRECTLY... and
MONITOR YOUR BLOOD GLUCOSE LEVELS and KEEP GLUCOSE LEVEL CONTROLLED.

Exercise is great for your body and will also help to control blood
glucose. You say that cardio exercise is a waste of time, but I am
all for cardio exercise (a.k.a. aerobic exercise) such as walking,
running, bicycle, swimming, etc... and I am also in favor of
resistance (weight lifting) exercise. They are BOTH very good.

Lorne: Needless to say, the conversation can go on for weeks or forever.
Opposing viewpoints are many when it comes to hormone
supplementation and certainly the FDA and other government agencies
would bang the gavel on anyone they could find that tries to support
a healthy anti-aging regimen.


Ellis: You just said it. Look at what you wrote. If this is true,
then this truely a "scourge": "certainly the FDA and other
government agencies would bang the gavel on anyone they find that
TRIES TO SUPPORT A HEALTHY ANTI-AGING REGIMEN"!!!

WHY should the F.D.A. and OTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCIES BANG THE
GAVEL on anyone that tries to support a HEALTHY ANTI-AGING REGIMEN?
Anti-Aging = anticipating the signs of aging and then try to do
what you can do to lessen or stop or reverse them.

In fact, the F.D.A. is not AGAINST growth hormone. F.D.A. approved
growth hormone is MADE in the United States... It is approved for
children to grow taller. It is approved for muscle wasting. And it
is approved for adult growth hormone deficiency. Call it what you
want... if you are growth hormone deficient and you replace it, and
your body responds by getting better, that is anti-aging. The F.D.A.
is not against doctors prescribing growth hormone.


Lorne: I don't put much credence in these sheep since they know
less than even the most reticent endocrinologist on the issue.

Ellis: Which sheep? The F.D.A. and other government agencies are
sheep? Who are they following?

Lorne: So do more research on testing, monitoring and ultimately
homeostasis for your goals. Begin the process by helping support
your own system of hormone production, recognizing that any addition
of any hormone will affect the entire web of your endocrine system
and you will notice the changes, positively I trust, but gradually.
There is no quick fix unless your thyroid is not performing or some
other instance of a clear pathology.

Lorne: I'd suggest that you start by having a look at a program that
I designed called the Optimal Metabolism Program.

http://www.anti-agingbeauty.com/anti-aging/when-to-eat-and-what-to-eat-wewe-prin\
cipal-for-optimal-anti-aging-beauty-by-lorne-caplan

Lorne: It takes the best from body-builders and teaches the lay
person to take control of the key aspects of their physiology by
monitoring, measuring and listening to what their body is telling
them. No gimmicks, nothing to spend, just common-sense, but you'll
have to do a little work.

Lorne Caplan

AgeMedica, LLC
52D Avon Circle
Rye Brook, New York 10573-2007
Ears: 914-481-4148
Eyes: 201-801-0189
Air: 917-881-5613
Bytes: lorne@...




Ellis: Congratulations on the program that you designed. But you
addressed this post to Pamela and you didn't answer Pamela's question
at all. And you did not say why my answer to Pamela was
"simplistic."

So now, PLEASE ANSWER PAMELAS QUESTION, and please SAY WHY MY REPLY
TO PAMELA IS SIMPLISTIC.

Here is Pamela's question again:

Pamela: On the site you were discussing it says to take the HGH
at night. I always thought it was best to take HGH in the morning
upon first arising. What is your opinion?

Please answer Pamela's question, and please tell everybody why
my answer (see below) to Pamela is simplistic. Please go over
it word for word and you tell us the correct answer.

Thanks for writing. - Ellis



--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Pamela Caruso wrote:
From: Pamela Caruso
Subject: [Rejuvenation] * * * When to take HGH? at night, or morning?
To: Rejuvenation@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 7:56 AM




Hi Ellis,

On the site you were discussing it says to take the HGH at night. 
I always thought it was best to take HGH in the morning upon first
arising. 

What is your opinion?

Thank you.

Pamela Caruso



Ellis: Hello Pamela... The site that we were discussing gives
you all the standard answers, and taking HGH at night is still
the standard doctor answer...

but... There is no really good reason to take HGH at night...


The MYTH is that it is better to take HGH at night because it
mimicks the body's release of growth hormone which occurs "in
deep sleep"...

But "according to Ellis" it is FALSE that the body releases
growth hormone during "DEEP SLEEP"... This is nonsense,
"according to Ellis" but to take HGH at night because our
body releases HGH during "deep sleep" would be mistaken EVEN IF
the myth is true.

("According to Ellis" the pituitary releases growth hormone when
BLOOD GLUCOSE LEVELS ARE LOW... and blood glucose levels are
lowest 10 or 12 hours after our last meal, which happens about
5:00 or 6:00 o'clock in the morning... This happens to coincide
to the time when we are deeply asleep... SOMEBODY then decided
that DEEP SLEEP was the CAUSE of the release of growth hormone...

Then it got printed in Medical Books... and DOCTORS have since
STUDIED what I say is A MYTH... and since there was nobody else
to say otherwise, they have all been REPEATING the same MYTH
for years.)

But one end of a rope is JUST AS FAR from the CENTER of the rope
as the other end of the rope. So if growth hormone would be
released at 3:00 A.M. we can suppose that it is JUST THE SAME if
you take it four hours earlier at 11:00 P.M. as if you would take
it four hours later at 7:00 A.M.

But one end of a rope is CLOSER to a point closer to that end,
than the other end of the rope. And I GUESS that growth hormone
is normally released about 5:00 or 6:00 A.M. while we are deeply
asleep and also WHEN BLOOD GLUCOSE IS LOWEST in the 24 hour day...

In which case it would be BETTER to take growth hormone two
hours later at 7:00 A.M. than six hours earlier 11:00 P.M:, if
what you want is to mimick the natural release of growth hormone.

But it turns out that it is great if you take your dose of
growth hormone at NIGHT, or if you take it IN THE MORNING...

They BOTH work very well.

We have had many reports from persons who take it at night and they
have gotten excellent results... And we have had many reports from
persons who take their dose in the early morning, and they have
also gotten excellent results.

And we have had reports from persons who take their dose BEFORE...
or AFTER... THEY DO EXERCISE... and they have also gotten excellent
results...

So it seems to be that THE ONLY TIME TO TAKE HGH INCORRECTLY is:
if you take it at NO TIME... IF YOU DO NOT TO TAKE HGH...

As long as you get growth hormone into your body, you will get
good results, no matter WHAT TIME you take it.

So... That is my opinion...

- Ellis