Palo Alto acupuncture pioneer, 82, dies

As for constitution, I really like palpating the source point of the channel that I correlate with the constitution. The most weak, the most strong, the chronic diaphragm or dai mai pulse that won't go away, all seem to wash away and even out when the source point of the constitution is contacted.

Warmly,

Will

In my Classical Five-Element Classes it was taught that if one needles the source points of the CF at least 10 of the 12 pulses (except the CF pulses) should balance out if not all 12.

Eric

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM, rossrosen <rossrosen@gmail. com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Peter, Lon, Will...
> Sorry for the delay. Busy with patients.
>
> In terms of the Hesitant pulse wave, we generally consider this to be a Heart yin deficient sign, not Spleen/Stomach. According to Leon, he has stated that Dr. Shen associated this with obsessive thinking (Heart Yin deficiency) and totally unrelated to the Spleen involvement with the mind except in that it supplies blood to the HT. The role of the Spleen (Yi)in this regard is to assist the Heart in its job of controlling the mind. We have never considered this to be related to an earth constitution. As far as I know, this was a Dr. Shen finding from the many years of his experience with an enormous patient base.
>
> I know that Kiiko calls this same pulse the 'pecking' pulse and uses the 'ST qi line' to treat it. From my understanding of this, her description is more akin to HT and circulatory functions, ie arterial flow and veinous return.
>
> Warmly,
> Ross
>
> --- In PulseDiagnosis@ yahoogroups. com, William Morris <wmorris33@.. .> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Peter and Lon -
> > The term hesitant arose in the Essential of Acupuncture and is, I believe
> > still used in Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion. The California
> > Acupuncture Board continues to use the term hesitant as a translation of
> > the rough pulse (*sÃ¨ mÃ i, *æ¾€è„ˆ)
> > http://www.acupunct ure.ca.gov/ students/ exam_preparation .pdf. In this
> > instance, the notion of hesitant sprang from what I consider to be an
> > excessive focus upon time based distortions in the wave: "faltering and
> > balking".
> >
> > I describe Leon's hesitant pulse as a wave with such a rapid arrival and
> > departure that it feels like a line straight up and down. If we apply the
> > Pulse Classic and divide the arrival into the yang portion and the departure
> > into the yin portion of the wave, then Hammer's hesitant suggests both both
> > yin and yang are affected. It is one of Shen's push pulses related to
> > obsessive overworking and we can see it in government and stock market. It
> > reminds me of the trader who has monitors in the kitchen and the bathroom so
> > as not to miss a trade.
> >
> > Ross, what are your thoughts on this matter? It has been 9 years now since
> > my years of co-teaching masters courses with Leon. I wonder if that the
> > dialog has developed.
> >
> > Warmly,
> >
> > Will
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:16 PM, sppdestiny <revolution@. ..>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Peter,
> > >
> > > Now that you mention, I vaguely remember having discussed this before. I
> > > meant deep for the water pulse. Leon uses the term "hesitant" to describe a
> > > pulse with predominantly vertical movement. It's about the only term he uses
> > > which doesn't really describe directly what the pulse feels like (as far as
> > > I'm concerned). I don't know what Chinese character it corresponded to..
> > > perhaps only Dr. Shen knew. I'm never able to get constitution from pulse
> > > only physiology, but the weakest/strongest (most functional/least
> > > functional) does seem to apply.
> > >
> > > Warm regards, Lon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
> >
> > http://www.aoma. edu/
> >
>
>

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma. edu/

#4376

From: mystir <ykcul_ritsym@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 9:33 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

ykcul_ritsym

Offline

Hi Will. Looking back thru the discussion, I can see you all are speaking, identifying the specific use of the term, from Mr Hammers view. I'll look and maybe learn a thing or two, and not cloud the water. Thanks.

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse
To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 11:48 PM

Hi Mystir
-
I think it is important to highlight that the hesitant pulse under discussion is specific to Leon Hammer's nomenclature. It does not correlate with the choppy pulse (se mai) - a word that is translated as hesitant by the New Essentials and the California Acupunctu re Board. I think that you are referring to the choppy pulse (se mai), but I am not certain. Can you affirm that?

I appreciate it,

Warmly,

Will

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:06 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@ yahoo.com> wrote:

That might be closer. As I see it, and learned it, its not an uncommon term,.. the hesitance is when feeling the rythym, the breakover wave is late and strong, hesitant, not lacking power, but held back.Differenty in the wiry pulse, as the wiry pulse isn't late, and its trail edge is sharp too. It can be in many positions, rarely kidney.
Like this, the beginning of the wave holds back, then quickly pulses, because there is energy, but it is restrained emotionally (best), or physically (hidden organ failure).
How to tell the difference is the art. But you guys are the geniuses, I'm just adding a couple words.
--- On Thu, 7/2/09, sppdestiny <revolution@berkshir e.rr.com> wrote:

From: sppdestiny <revolution@berkshir e.rr.com>
Subject: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse
To: PulseDiagnosis@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 1:11 PM

Very interesting regarding the hesitant pulse. Again, I've found it to be highly correlated with earth constitution or significant imbalance. I think of it as pointing directly to the Yi as the spirit of earth (thought as the digestive aspect of mind) and it's relationship to si, worry, obsession.

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma. edu/

#4375

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:16 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

wmorris33

Offline

OK - let's mix our metaphors. The hesitant pulse has a shortened time for automaticity and refractory period. These notes are extrapolated from studies with one of my teachers, Qiu Zhouyi.

The hesitant pulse involves automaticity which is an intrinsic property of some types of cardiac tissues, like the nodes and the conducting fibers. Automatic cells are characterized by the appearance, during diastole, of a slow depolarization which is capable of reaching threshold and generate an action potential. This depolarization may also be called a slow diastolic depolarization, or pacemaker potential.�In the hesitant pulse, the automaticity depolarizes more quickly, this gives the sensation of no ramp up in the wave. �

The refractoriness property is defined as the period of recovery that cells required after being discharged before they can be reexcited by a stimulus. This refractory period is reduced in the hesitant pulse, giving the impression of no departure portion of the wave. The electro-phathophysiological mechanisms of the hesitant pulse can be divided into disorders of impulse propagation and the disorders of impulse formation. There are three factors affecting automaticity. They are the maximum diastolic potential, threshold potential and the slope of repolarization.

I think it is important to raise the notion that early Chinese texts on rate do not articulate the difference for a fast pulse between beats per breath and an elevated rate of arrival or departure. The rate of the wave's arrival can be fast - and it is in the hesitant pulse, just as it is in the departure. So this is a pulse that in early times may have been described as fast. If it is without force, it is yin depletion. If there is force, there can be excess heat involved. The problem is that both the automaticity and the refractory period are so short, there is insufficient time to fill the heart with blood, so there is a reduced ejection fraction. This creates a scenario where a forceful hesitant pulse is rarer. �

So - in pursuit of a treatment for the patient with the hesitant pulse, and assuming confirmation of yin depletion,

Treatment principles:
� �Nourish Yin, enrich the Kidney and Heart, clear the Depletion-Fire
Formula:
1.�Huang Lian E Jiao Tang� (Coptis-Gelatinum Corii Asini Decoction)
� � � � Huang Lian 9g, Huang Qin 9g, Bai Shao 10g, Ji Zi Huang 2 yolks,
�EJiao 10g.
2.�Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan�(Emperor of Heaven�s Special Pill To Tonify
� � � The Heart)
� � � Sheng Di Huang 12g, �Ren Shen 6g, Tian Men Dong 12g, �
� � � Mai Men Dong 12g, Xuan Shen 9g, �Dan Shen 10g, �Fu Ling 12g,
� � � Yuan Zhi 6g, �Dang Gui 9g, �Wu Wei Zi 5g, Bai Zi Ren 10g, �
� � � Suan Zao Ren 10g, Jie Geng 9g, �Zhu Sha 10g.

For severe yin deficiency, add
Mai Men Dong (Ophiopogonis Japonici, Tuber) 10g
Sheng Di Huang (Rehmanniae Glutinosae, Radix) 10g
Dang Gui (Angelicae Sinensis, Radix) 6g
For irritability and insomnia, add
Long Chi (Draconis, Dens) 15g
Mu Li (Ostreae, Concha) 15g
For significant empty heat, add
� �Xi Yang Shen (Panacis Quinquefolii, Radix) 8g
� �Lian zi xin (Nelumbinis Nuciferae, Plumula) 10g

Electrohysiological study of Dang Gui:
Treating experimental arrhythmia with the alcohol purified extracts of Dong Gui was reported by Dr. Wei Zhong Min (Biejin University of TCM). The results suggest that Dang Gui can slow conduction, increase refractoriness, and depress phase 0 depolarization by increase action potential amplitude (APA), prolong the effective refractory period (ERP), and decrease the rate of rise of action potential (Vmax).

Further, complex patterns of blood stasis, excess heat and phlegm heat are common concomitants with the hesitant pulse, the whole picture must be considered. If there is qi depletion also present, Baked Licorice Combination (zhi gan cao tang) also has Ginseng and Ophiopogonis (Sheng Mai San) in it.

Warmly,

Will

On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 6:03 AM, rossrosen <rossrosen@...> wrote:
>
>
> I can definitely understand that. To some degree it is contingent upon perspective. For example, one can see the representative formula for treating Hesitant and HT yin deficient pulse as Sheng Mai San (which also treats HT shock which is almost always found with a Hesitant wave). Sheng Mai San can be analyzed to be a ST yin supplementing formula (Ren Shen nourishes fluids, Mai Men Dong nourishes ST yin; Wu Wei Zi astringes fluids and sometimes referred to as the 5 flavor herb to affect all zang) and indeed HT shock can be seen as affecting the Emperor which impacts the rest or the empire, or, significantly affecting one's center (stability/groundedness) rooted in the SP/ST and source of post-natal qi. It all comes down to experience and clinical success in that regard.
>
> Ross
>
> --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "sppdestiny" <revolution@...> wrote:
> >
> > Ross,
> >
> > I appreciate the context you're providing here. Still, I have to stand by my observations over quite some time that the earth element is strongly implicated in the hesitant pulse. Of course the heart radical is the foundation foe the yi and si so there would seem to be an interesting relationship.-Lon
> >
>
>

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4374

From: "rossrosen" <rossrosen@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 11:03 am
Subject: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

rossrosen

Offline

I can definitely understand that.  To some degree it is contingent upon
perspective.  For example, one can see the representative formula for treating
Hesitant and HT yin deficient pulse as Sheng Mai San (which also treats HT shock
which is almost always found with a Hesitant wave).  Sheng Mai San can be
analyzed to be a ST yin supplementing formula (Ren Shen nourishes fluids, Mai
Men Dong nourishes ST yin; Wu Wei Zi astringes fluids and sometimes referred to
as the 5 flavor herb to affect all zang) and indeed HT shock can be seen as
affecting the Emperor which impacts the rest or the empire, or, significantly
affecting one's center (stability/groundedness) rooted in the SP/ST and source
of post-natal qi.  It all comes down to experience and clinical success in that
regard.

Ross

--- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "sppdestiny" <revolution@...> wrote:
>
> Ross,
>
>    I appreciate the context you're providing here. Still, I have to stand by
my observations over quite some time that the earth element is strongly
implicated in the hesitant pulse. Of course the heart radical is the foundation
foe the yi and si so there would seem to be an interesting relationship.-Lon
>

#4373

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 4:14 am
Subject: Re: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

wmorris33

Offline

Lon -�

As I relayed before, I concur with your thought that there is an�involvement�of the yi. And, we are speaking about�Leon Hammer's hesitant pulse. There is another piece to this hesitant pulse and that is the notion of a lack of stomach qi, or moderation.�

A feature of the ideal pulse is that it�has stomach qi (wei), spirit (shen), and root (gen).. The stomach qi causes the pulse to be moderate and represents the gu qi that comes slowly with harmony. Stomach qi is postnatal qi, it is the source of the postnatal qi and blood, and the transformation of the pulse is full.�The spirit of the pulse is the stability of shape volume and temporal factors. Spirit depletion is signified by inconsistent comings and goings. When the pulse begins to flicker, develop arrhythmias and is easily changed in terms of shape and volume, then the spirit of the pulse is absent. There is no spirit if the pulse disappears.� The root is representative of the essence; it is the deep area of the organ depth and it is the proximal positions. The weird pulses all have a distinct absence of one or more of spirit, root or stomach qi.

This hesitant wave is not full. It virtually has no arrival nor departure. This is a concern in the area of stomach qi as opposed to spirit or root.�

Warmly,

Will

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 9:23 PM, sppdestiny <revolution@...> wrote:

Ross,

I appreciate the context you're providing here. Still, I have to stand by my observations over quite some time that the earth element is strongly implicated in the hesitant pulse. Of course the heart radical is the foundation foe the yi and si so there would seem to be an interesting relationship.-Lon

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4372

From: john kokko <johnkokko@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 3:22 am
Subject: Re: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

mubonglim

Offline

I believe that the "pecking" pulse in Kiiko style is found on the stomach position (right middle- guan).
The pecking pulse lacks horizontal movement and root,
which is associated with a lack of ST Qi
thereafter treated with the ST Qi line (ST 36 - ST 41),
on the left side first and then the right side if needed.

K

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:23 PM, sppdestiny <revolution@...> wrote:

Ross,

I appreciate the context you're providing here. Still, I have to stand by my observations over quite some time that the earth element is strongly implicated in the hesitant pulse. Of course the heart radical is the foundation foe the yi and si so there would seem to be an interesting relationship.-Lon

--
John Kokko, L.Ac
Turtle Island Integrative Health
www.turtleclinic.com

TCM Review director
CA State Board Prep Courses
www.tcmreview.com

#4371

From: "Eduardo Lobo" <eduardolobo.vet@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 11:24 pm
Subject: pulse diagnosis in animals

lobojr20002000

Offline

Hello to all.
I'm a vet from Brasil who works with acupuncture in small animals. i'm looking
for some infformation about pulse diagnosis in animals, papers, books or courses
related to this matter.
Thanks in advanced for the help.
Regards
Eduardo Lobo

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)

#4370

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 3:48 am
Subject: Re: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

wmorris33

Offline

Hi Mystir�
-

I think it is important to highlight that the hesitant pulse under discussion is specific to Leon Hammer's nomenclature. It does not correlate with the choppy pulse (se mai) - a word that is translated as hesitant by the New Essentials and the California�Acupuncture�Board. I think that you are referring to the�choppy pulse (se mai), but I am not certain. Can you affirm that?

I appreciate it,

Warmly,

Will

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 7:06 PM, mystir <ykcul_ritsym@...> wrote:

�That might be closer. As I see it, and learned it, its not an uncommon term,.. the hesitance is when feeling the rythym, the breakover wave is late and strong, hesitant, not lacking power, but held back.Differenty in the wiry pulse, as the wiry pulse isn't late, and its trail edge is sharp too. It can be in many positions, rarely kidney.
�Like this, the beginning of the wave holds back, then quickly pulses, because there is energy, but it is restrained emotionally (best), or physically (hidden organ failure).
�How to tell the difference is the art. But you guys are the geniuses, I'm just adding a couple words.
--- On Thu, 7/2/09, sppdestiny <revolution@...> wrote:

From: sppdestiny <revolution@...>
Subject: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse
To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 1:11 PM

Very interesting regarding the hesitant pulse. Again, I've found it to be highly correlated with earth constitution or significant imbalance. I think of it as pointing directly to the Yi as the spirit of earth (thought as the digestive aspect of mind) and it's relationship to si, worry, obsession.

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4369

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 11:25 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

wmorris33

Offline

Hi Ross, Lon and Peter,

I am on vacation in Southern OR and have time for posting. ;-)

The wave analysis method for Hammer's 'hesitant' pulse also confirms yin depletion (rapid departure), but also a slight hyperactivity of yang (rapid arrival). Since it is in the wave, the heart is the primary indication. Thus, the notion of yin depletion that Dr. Shen identifies is reiterated using early wave analysis methods. As for the yi, as one of the shen it resides in the heart. Of course, the spleen is the natural residence of the yi. That is the paradox.

I am familiar with Kiiko's use of the term pecking, and concur, it seemed to be the same as the hesitant pulse. This is distinct from Professor Xie Zhufa's description of the "Bird-pecking Pulse" as described in English Translation of Common Terms in Chinese Medicine (2004). Clearly, this is an arrhythmia. :

The pulse is middle-sited with rapid rhythm . After three or five beats , the pulse pauses suddenly for a long interval, then the pulse appears again as if a bird pecks food . It indicates that primordial energy of spleen and essential substances from cereals exhaust inside body.

Warmly,

Will

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 4:17 PM, rossrosen <rossrosen@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Peter, Lon, Will...
> Sorry for the delay. Busy with patients.
>
> In terms of the Hesitant pulse wave, we generally consider this to be a Heart yin deficient sign, not Spleen/Stomach. According to Leon, he has stated that Dr. Shen associated this with obsessive thinking (Heart Yin deficiency) and totally unrelated to the Spleen involvement with the mind except in that it supplies blood to the HT. The role of the Spleen (Yi)in this regard is to assist the Heart in its job of controlling the mind. We have never considered this to be related to an earth constitution. As far as I know, this was a Dr. Shen finding from the many years of his experience with an enormous patient base.
>
> I know that Kiiko calls this same pulse the 'pecking' pulse and uses the 'ST qi line' to treat it. From my understanding of this, her description is more akin to HT and circulatory functions, ie arterial flow and veinous return.
>
> Warmly,
> Ross
>
> --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Peter and Lon -
> > The term hesitant arose in the Essential of Acupuncture and is, I believe
> > still used in Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion. The California
> > Acupuncture Board continues to use the term hesitant as a translation of
> > the rough pulse (*sÃ¨ mÃ i, *æ¾€è„ˆ)
> > http://www.acupuncture.ca.gov/students/exam_preparation.pdf. In this
> > instance, the notion of hesitant sprang from what I consider to be an
> > excessive focus upon time based distortions in the wave: "faltering and
> > balking".
> >
> > I describe Leon's hesitant pulse as a wave with such a rapid arrival and
> > departure that it feels like a line straight up and down. If we apply the
> > Pulse Classic and divide the arrival into the yang portion and the departure
> > into the yin portion of the wave, then Hammer's hesitant suggests both both
> > yin and yang are affected. It is one of Shen's push pulses related to
> > obsessive overworking and we can see it in government and stock market. It
> > reminds me of the trader who has monitors in the kitchen and the bathroom so
> > as not to miss a trade.
> >
> > Ross, what are your thoughts on this matter? It has been 9 years now since
> > my years of co-teaching masters courses with Leon. I wonder if that the
> > dialog has developed.
> >
> > Warmly,
> >
> > Will
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:16 PM, sppdestiny <revolution@...>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Peter,
> > >
> > > Now that you mention, I vaguely remember having discussed this before. I
> > > meant deep for the water pulse. Leon uses the term "hesitant" to describe a
> > > pulse with predominantly vertical movement. It's about the only term he uses
> > > which doesn't really describe directly what the pulse feels like (as far as
> > > I'm concerned). I don't know what Chinese character it corresponded to.
> > > perhaps only Dr. Shen knew. I'm never able to get constitution from pulse
> > > only physiology, but the weakest/strongest (most functional/least
> > > functional) does seem to apply.
> > >
> > > Warm regards, Lon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
> >
> > http://www.aoma.edu/
> >
>
>

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4368

From: mystir <ykcul_ritsym@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 12:06 am
Subject: Re: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

ykcul_ritsym

Offline

That might be closer. As I see it, and learned it, its not an uncommon term,.. the hesitance is when feeling the rythym, the breakover wave is late and strong, hesitant, not lacking power, but held back.Differenty in the wiry pulse, as the wiry pulse isn't late, and its trail edge is sharp too. It can be in many positions, rarely kidney.
Like this, the beginning of the wave holds back, then quickly pulses, because there is energy, but it is restrained emotionally (best), or physically (hidden organ failure).
How to tell the difference is the art. But you guys are the geniuses, I'm just adding a couple words.
--- On Thu, 7/2/09, sppdestiny <revolution@...> wrote:

From: sppdestiny <revolution@...>
Subject: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse
To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 1:11 PM

Very interesting regarding the hesitant pulse. Again, I've found it to be highly correlated with earth constitution or significant imbalance. I think of it as pointing directly to the Yi as the spirit of earth (thought as the digestive aspect of mind) and it's relationship to si, worry, obsession.

#4367

From: "sppdestiny" <revolution@...>
Date: Fri Jul 3, 2009 2:23 am
Subject: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

sppdestiny

Offline

Ross,

    I appreciate the context you're providing here. Still, I have to stand by my
observations over quite some time that the earth element is strongly implicated
in the hesitant pulse. Of course the heart radical is the foundation foe the yi
and si so there would seem to be an interesting relationship.-Lon

#4366

From: "rossrosen" <rossrosen@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 9:17 pm
Subject: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

rossrosen

Offline

Hi Peter, Lon, Will...
Sorry for the delay.  Busy with patients.

In terms of the Hesitant pulse wave, we generally consider this to be a Heart
yin deficient sign, not Spleen/Stomach.  According to Leon, he has stated that
Dr. Shen associated this with obsessive thinking (Heart Yin deficiency) and
totally unrelated to the Spleen involvement with the mind except in that it
supplies blood to the HT. The role of the Spleen (Yi)in this regard is to assist
the Heart in its job of controlling the mind.  We have never considered this to
be related to an earth constitution.  As far as I know, this was a Dr. Shen
finding from the many years of his experience with an enormous patient base.

I know that Kiiko calls this same pulse the 'pecking' pulse and uses the 'ST qi
line' to treat it.  From my understanding of this, her description is more akin
to HT and circulatory functions, ie arterial flow and veinous return.

Warmly,
Ross




--- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Peter and Lon -
> The term hesitant arose in the Essential of Acupuncture and is, I believe
> still used in Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion. The California
> Acupuncture Board continues to use the term hesitant as a translation of
> the rough pulse (*sè mài, *澀脈)
> http://www.acupuncture.ca.gov/students/exam_preparation.pdf. In this
> instance, the notion of hesitant sprang from what I consider to be an
> excessive focus upon time based distortions in the wave: "faltering and
> balking".
>
> I describe Leon's hesitant pulse as a wave with such a rapid arrival and
> departure that it feels like a line straight up and down. If we apply the
> Pulse Classic and divide the arrival into the yang portion and the departure
> into the yin portion of the wave, then Hammer's hesitant suggests both both
> yin and yang are affected. It is one of Shen's push pulses related to
> obsessive overworking and we can see it in government and stock market. It
> reminds me of the trader who has monitors in the kitchen and the bathroom so
> as not to miss a trade.
>
> Ross, what are your thoughts on this matter? It has been 9 years now since
> my years of co-teaching masters courses with Leon. I wonder if that the
> dialog has developed.
>
> Warmly,
>
> Will
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:16 PM, sppdestiny <revolution@...>wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > Now that you mention, I vaguely remember having discussed this before. I
> > meant deep for the water pulse. Leon uses the term "hesitant" to describe a
> > pulse with predominantly vertical movement. It's about the only term he uses
> > which doesn't really describe directly what the pulse feels like (as far as
> > I'm concerned). I don't know what Chinese character it corresponded to.
> > perhaps only Dr. Shen knew. I'm never able to get constitution from pulse
> > only physiology, but the weakest/strongest (most functional/least
> > functional) does seem to apply.
> >
> > Warm regards, Lon
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc
>
> http://www.aoma.edu/
>

#4365

From: "sppdestiny" <revolution@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 5:11 pm
Subject: Re: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

sppdestiny

Offline

Very interesting regarding the hesitant pulse. Again, I've found it to be highly
correlated with earth constitution or significant imbalance. I think of it as
pointing directly to the Yi as the spirit of earth (thought as the digestive
aspect of mind) and it's relationship to si, worry, obsession.

#4364

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:49 pm
Subject: Was halusinogenic drugs: Now Hesitant Pulse

wmorris33

Offline

Hi Peter and Lon -

The term hesitant arose in the Essential of Acupuncture and is, I believe still used in Chinese Acupuncture and Moxibustion. The California Acupuncture Board continues to use the term hesitant as a translation of the rough pulse (sè mài, 澀脈) http://www.acupuncture.ca.gov/students/exam_preparation.pdf. In this instance, the notion of hesitant sprang from what I consider to be an excessive focus upon time based distortions in the wave: "faltering and balking".

I describe Leon's hesitant pulse as a wave with such a rapid arrival and departure that it feels like a line straight up and down. If we apply the Pulse Classic and divide the arrival into the yang portion and the departure into the yin portion of the wave, then Hammer's hesitant suggests both both yin and yang are affected. It is one of Shen's push pulses related to obsessive overworking and we can see it in government and stock market. It reminds me of the trader who has monitors in the kitchen and the bathroom so as not to miss a trade.

Ross, what are your thoughts on this matter? It has been 9 years now since my years of co-teaching masters courses with Leon. I wonder if that the dialog has developed.

Warmly,

Will

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:16 PM, sppdestiny <revolution@...> wrote:

Hi Peter,

Now that you mention, I vaguely remember having discussed this before. I meant deep for the water pulse. Leon uses the term "hesitant" to describe a pulse with predominantly vertical movement. It's about the only term he uses which doesn't really describe directly what the pulse feels like (as far as I'm concerned). I don't know what Chinese character it corresponded to. perhaps only Dr. Shen knew. I'm never able to get constitution from pulse only physiology, but the weakest/strongest (most functional/least functional) does seem to apply.

Warm regards, Lon

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4363

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 12:02 pm
Subject: Re: Miriam Lee

wmorris33

Offline

Palo Alto acupuncture pioneer, 82, dies

By Shaun Bishop

Daily News Staff Writer

Posted:�06/30/2009 11:02:41 PM PDT

Updated:�06/30/2009 11:02:46 PM PDT

Miriam Lee, a prominent acupuncturist who pushed for licensing the practice in California and treated patients for two decades in Palo Alto, died last week. She was 82.

Lee suffered a severe stroke in recent weeks and died June 24 in Southern California, where she lived after retiring in 1997, said Susan Johnson, a former student and longtime friend.

Lee's 1974 arrest in Palo Alto for practicing medicine without a license made her an icon for the movement to allow acupuncture to be legalized in the United States, Johnson said.

She also had a lifelong desire to learn, traveling across the world to pick up new skills and passing on her knowledge to many of her students.

"She was an extraordinary practitioner, a one-of-a-kind pioneer in terms of techniques and teaching," said Johnson, who was an intern under Lee in 1982.

Born Dec. 8, 1926, in China, Lee studied in her late teenage years to be a midwife. She moved to Singapore in 1953, where she worked as a bank teller until she immigrated to the United States in 1969, Johnson said.

Lee settled in Palo Alto and worked on an assembly line in a Hewlett-Packard factory, treating co-workers who complained of shoulder or neck pain with acupuncture in her home, Johnson said.

As word of her in-home acupuncture practice spread, Lee attracted a growing number of patients. But authorities caught wind of her popularity, and in 1974 arrested her for practicing medicine without�a license.

According to Lee's 1992 book, "Insights of a Senior Acupuncturist," she was acquitted after supporters came to her defense at a court hearing. Lee then pushed for legislation that eventually established acupuncture licensing in California in 1976.

She founded an acupuncture practice on Cambridge Avenue, where she treated a variety of illnesses, from thyroid problems to migraine headaches, said Jean Leong, who observed Lee's treatments as an adolescent while her mother worked as Lee's assistant.

Lee started her day early and treated as many as 10 patients every hour using different tables in different rooms, Leong said.

Throughout her career, Lee studied with acupuncture masters in China, learning new skills that she took back to the United States, including unusual techniques not taught in acupuncture schools, Johnson said.

In 1997 she retired and moved to the Los Angeles area after suffering her first stroke, Johnson said.

"I just think Miriam was the pioneer," Leong said. "If it wasn't for her, I don't know if acupuncture would have been introduced to the U.S. � and certainly not to California � at the time it happened."

A memorial service for Lee will be held 1 p.m. Friday at Rose Hills Park and Mortuary, 3888 Workman Mill Road, Whittier, Calif.

On Sat, Jun 27, 2009 at 8:22 AM, twi rose <twirose@...> wrote:

Miriam Lee was a guiding�light to me once I'd completed my acupuncture studies.Of all my texts on this subject it is hers that I so often refer to, and employ in many various ways.�Her text, 'Insights of a Senior Acupuncturist' belongs on every student of TCM's bookshelf, for not only her simple (though so useful)�point indications, but for her gracious�and encouraging�spirit.

�

I believe that her court case in the 1970's helped to open people's eyes to the knowledge of acupuncture as�a�genuine�medical modality, especially�in North America where it was too�often�regarded as a kind of�Asian voodoo.
(It is rare now to hear an MD patronizing about the 'placebo' or the 'endorphin' effect of acupuncture.)

�

May her Spirit continue to inspire and to heal.

�

Jon
--- On Sat, 6/27/09, john kokko <johnkokko@...> wrote:

From: john kokko <johnkokko@...>
Subject: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Miriam Lee
To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
Received: Saturday, June 27, 2009, 3:20 AM

I didn't know Miriam Lee personally,
but her students say that she was like a saint,
waking up early to take care of her patients
and dedicating her life for the medicine,
jailed in the 70s for practicing our medicine when it was illegal.

My condolences to her students who had the highest respect for her.

K

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:04 PM, William Morris <wmorris33@...> wrote:

Dear All -�

This from Susan Johnson. My condolences to all who knew her.�

Will

Just writing to let you know.............

Our beloved teacher and friend, Dr. Miriam Lee, OMD (Lee Chuan Djin) passed to the other side this afternoon, at 12:50pm.

At the moment of her death, her brother David and I were at her bedside, having an animated conversation about her life. He was speaking and i was transcribing, a rough timeline of events. I looked up and noticed that she was no longer breathing.

Miriam had had a severe stroke, a week ago last Sunday. She died peacefully, in her home in Torrance, CA. with her family around her.

In this her final journey, may she experience her greatest fulfillment.................

all my love to all of you,
� � � � � � � � � � � Susan

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4362

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 2:29 am
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

wmorris33

Offline

Z'ev and Lon -

Lon: I have fond memories of you quoting that passage as we sat together in your kitchen.�

Z'ev: Agreed, the whole knowledge of the patient, the season and the location are part of an "ecopsychosocial" construct of medicine that serves a spiritual vitalism.�

To this end, we are getting closer to the metaphor of "seeing" and "listening" while taking the pulse. Which seems to be a movement towards direct�knowledge, unfettered by the�senses.�This conversation speaks to the "signs" which imprint upon the practitioner's consciousness and then becomes abstracted into some meaning. The early signs on the scapula of the cow in the Shang Dynasty were determined through a sacred space where fire is brought to bear upon material reality such that communication occurs. In later times, the mythic half bird half human, Bian Que is �attributed authorship of the Nan Jing. This implies a shamanic vision and power inherent to the structure and content of the Nan Jing.�

Warmly,

Will

On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Z'ev Rosenberg <zrosenbe@...> wrote:

Lon,
�� I would agree with the Nan Jing that 'penetrating insight' is the 'hight' of diagnosis, but certainly I agree
that pulse diagnosis in no way needs to be limited to an inferior 'data taking' tool. �Really Chinese diagnosis is�

a Gestalt form, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. �The complete utilization of Chinese diagnostic methods can awaken the penetrating insight which can lead to healing of our patients, G-d willing.

Z'ev Rosenberg
On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:46 AM, sppdestiny wrote:

Thanks Will for the kind words.

"I would love to open up some discussion on the Nan Jing"

Well, as you know, my favorite quote from the Nanjing is the hierarchy of diagnosis that puts "to look and know" at the top as the spiritual practice of medicine and pulse dx at the bottom as a "skilled craft". It's interesting to consider that in our current climate of "anything I think or feel is as valid as anything else" I'd say pulse diagnosis offers a very important reality factor in the integral practice of medicine. Really, to "touch and know" is the same as to "look and know" in a certain sense. The real distinction being made is about apprehension prior to mind vs just thinking about things and drawing conclusions based on data. But from an integral perspective I'm always happiest when I can explain my intuitions concretely in terms of physiology. Still at the leading edge there is submission to the pull of the unknown and a realization of that which lies just beyond theory.

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine
Pacific College of Oriental Medicine
San Diego, Ca. 92122

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4361

From: "sppdestiny" <revolution@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 2:16 am
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

sppdestiny

Offline

Hi Peter,


     Now that you mention, I vaguely remember having discussed this before. I
meant deep for the water pulse. Leon uses the term "hesitant" to describe a
pulse with predominantly vertical movement. It's about the only term he uses
which doesn't really describe directly what the pulse feels like (as far as I'm
concerned). I don't know what Chinese character it corresponded to. perhaps only
Dr. Shen knew. I'm never able to get constitution from pulse only physiology,
but the weakest/strongest (most functional/least functional) does seem to apply.

  Warm regards, Lon

#4360

From: Z'ev Rosenberg <zrosenbe@...>
Date: Thu Jul 2, 2009 1:00 am
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

zrosenberg2001

Offline

Lon,

I would agree with the Nan Jing that 'penetrating insight' is the 'hight' of diagnosis, but certainly I agree

that pulse diagnosis in no way needs to be limited to an inferior 'data taking' tool. Really Chinese diagnosis is

a Gestalt form, where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The complete utilization of Chinese diagnostic methods can awaken the penetrating insight which can lead to healing of our patients, G-d willing.

Z'ev Rosenberg

On Jul 1, 2009, at 11:46 AM, sppdestiny wrote:

Thanks Will for the kind words.

"I would love to open up some discussion on the Nan Jing"

Well, as you know, my favorite quote from the Nanjing is the hierarchy of diagnosis that puts "to look and know" at the top as the spiritual practice of medicine and pulse dx at the bottom as a "skilled craft". It's interesting to consider that in our current climate of "anything I think or feel is as valid as anything else" I'd say pulse diagnosis offers a very important reality factor in the integral practice of medicine. Really, to "touch and know" is the same as to "look and know" in a certain sense. The real distinction being made is about apprehension prior to mind vs just thinking about things and drawing conclusions based on data. But from an integral perspective I'm always happiest when I can explain my intuitions concretely in terms of physiology. Still at the leading edge there is submission to the pull of the unknown and a realization of that which lies just beyond theory.

Z'ev Rosenberg, L. Ac.

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

#4359

From: Ross Rosen <rossrosen@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 4:26 pm
Subject: Re: Jim Ramholz and his pulse teachings

rossrosen

Offline

Hey Sasha,
Nice to see you here.� There were a bunch of articles on Jim's old pulse diagnosis yahoogroup.� Have you checked there?

Also on www.dragonrises.org there are tons of articles written by Dr. Leon Hammer, and a handful of mine with my colleague Brandt.

Best regards,
Ross

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 10:56 PM, alex_kremer <alex_kremer@...> wrote:

Hi, I was wondering if anyone can recommend books, articles, etc on Jim Ramholz's work. I know some people teach his methods but I'd like to read up on it more.
I know he once taught a year in Colorado, Advanced Pulse Diagnosis I & II, I wonder if that material ever made it into print...

Thanks!

Sasha

--
_/I\_
Ross Rosen, LAc, CA, Dipl OM (NCCAOM)
Center for Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine
166 Mountain Ave.
Westfield, NJ �07090
(908) 654-4333
http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com
http://rossrosen.blogspot.com
Ross Rosen's Interview on Blog Talk Tadio http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Larry-Elliott/2008/10/02/Founder-of-Center-for-Acupuncture-Addresses-Root-Causes-of-Health-Issues-
Ross Rosen's Lecture Jan. 12 2009 on Chinese medicine and his upcoming book debunking many western medical myths on health
http://www.acupunctureandherbalmedicine.com/forms/Ross_Lecture_011209.mp3
http://chinesepulsediagnosis.blogspot.com/

This email contains confidential information intended for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. �If you should receive this in error please contact us immediately by return mail, or at the above phone number. �Unauthorized �use of this information may be in violation of criminal statutes or HIPAA regulations. �Under no circumstances shall this material be retained, transmitted, or copied by anyone other than the addressee(s).

#4358

From: healingmountain@...
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:33 pm
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

eckmanpeter

Offline

Hi Lonny,

I remember having this same discussion with you about a year or two ago. I fully agree with your conclusion that there is no reliable diagnosis of the constitution based on the pulse quality either in a specific locus, or distributed over the pulse as a whole. And yet, it is inconceivable to me that the constitution is not inscribed in the pulse. What a wonderful koan! It's been reverberating inside my skull for decades. I hope to find a satisfying answer in this lifetime (actually, I feel fairly close), but if not, it will not feel like wasted time.

I like your take on the dynamics and interpretation of slippery and hesitant pulses. I'm a little puzzled by the terminology though. I've often thought that hesitant was one of the translations of the pulse that feels like it's moving over a jagged piece of bamboo (also called sticky, rough, or choppy). Which Chinese term are you referring to as hesitant?

And for the Water quality, did you mean Deep? Deer makes me think of deer horn, which brings up many a humorous association,

Peter

In a message dated 7/1/09 11:57:52 AM, revolution@... writes:

Will, that's a large topic for a late night reply! The short answer is
> that I am invested in finding a way to confirm one's constitutional diagnosis
> strictly via the pulse.

Hi Peter, My insights are:

1. The constitution is likely to be either the weakest (where the problem started) or strongest pulse (the place that's compensating now).

I've found qualities associated with elements but never found they correspond to constitution. In other words, Slippery often correlates with earth imbalance but may or may not be the 5E dx.

Earth: Slippery
Hesitant: Pulse waveform is straight up and down (obsession, covering the same ground over and over).

Interestingly Slippery is a strong lateral motion with the vertical dimension diminished and Hesitant is a strong Vertical motion with the Lateral dimension diminished.

Metal: Fine Vibration (emotional sensitivity/ the bubbles on the champagne)

Water: deer or wiry (jingxu through a path of yinxu)

Wood: Tense

Fire: Intermittent, Change rate, rhythm, intensity. Also choppy (blood stasis/betrayal/ Fire:

**************
Dell Laptops: Huge Savings on Popular Laptops – Deals starting at $399(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222883570x1201497211/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D0)

#4357

From: "alex_kremer" <alex_kremer@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 10:46 pm
Subject: Re: Jim Ramholz and his pulse teachings

alex_kremer

Offline

Thank you, an excellent article and I've downloaded Jim's work at the end of it.
I wonder if there's more on the subject on the web, so far my search hasn't
yielded much...

#4356

From: "Will Morris" <wmorris33@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 8:36 pm
Subject: Re: Jim Ramholz and his pulse teachings

wmorris33

Offline

Hi Sasha --

Here is a brief memorial to Jim, some of his papers are attached.
http://www.pulsediagnosis.com/JimRamholzandtheDongHanTradition.htm

Warmly,

Will



--- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, "alex_kremer" <alex_kremer@...> wrote:
>
> Hi, I was wondering if anyone can recommend books, articles, etc on Jim
Ramholz's work. I know some people teach his methods but I'd like to read up on
it more.
> I know he once taught a year in Colorado, Advanced Pulse Diagnosis I & II, I
wonder if that material ever made it into print...
>
> Thanks!
>
> Sasha
>

#4355

From: "sppdestiny" <revolution@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:56 pm
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

sppdestiny

Offline

--- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com, healingmountain@... wrote:
>
> Will, that's a large topic for a late night reply!   The short answer is
> that I am invested in finding a way to confirm one's constitutional diagnosis
> strictly via the pulse.

Hi Peter, My insights are:

1. The constitution is likely to be either the weakest (where the problem
started) or strongest pulse (the place that's compensating now).

I've found qualities associated with elements but never found they correspond to
constitution. In other words, Slippery often correlates with earth imbalance but
may or may not be the 5E dx.

Earth: Slippery
Hesitant: Pulse waveform is straight up and down (obsession, covering the same
ground over and over).

Interestingly Slippery is a strong lateral motion with the vertical dimension
diminished and Hesitant is a strong Vertical motion with the Lateral dimension
diminished.

Metal: Fine Vibration (emotional sensitivity/ the bubbles on the champagne)

Water: deer or wiry (jingxu through a path of yinxu)

Wood: Tense

Fire: Intermittent, Change rate, rhythm, intensity. Also choppy (blood
stasis/betrayal/denial)

#4354

From: "sppdestiny" <revolution@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 6:46 pm
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

sppdestiny

Offline

Thanks Will for the kind words.

"I would love to open up some discussion on the Nan Jing"

Well, as you know, my favorite quote from the Nanjing is the hierarchy of
diagnosis that puts "to look and know" at the top as the spiritual practice of
medicine and pulse dx at the bottom as a "skilled craft". It's interesting to
consider that in our current climate of "anything I think or feel is as valid as
anything else" I'd say pulse diagnosis offers a very important reality factor in
the integral practice of medicine. Really, to "touch and know" is the same as to
"look and know" in a certain sense. The real distinction being made is about
apprehension prior to mind vs just thinking about things and drawing conclusions
based on data. But from an integral perspective I'm always happiest when I can
explain my intuitions concretely in terms of physiology. Still at the leading
edge there is submission to the pull of the unknown and a realization of that
which lies just beyond theory.

#4353

From: "alex_kremer" <alex_kremer@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 2:56 am
Subject: Jim Ramholz and his pulse teachings

alex_kremer

Offline

Hi, I was wondering if anyone can recommend books, articles, etc on Jim
Ramholz's work. I know some people teach his methods but I'd like to read up on
it more.
I know he once taught a year in Colorado, Advanced Pulse Diagnosis I & II, I
wonder if that material ever made it into print...

Thanks!

Sasha

#4352

From: Eric Waltemate <ericwaltemate@...>
Date: Wed Jul 1, 2009 1:10 am
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

ericwaltemate

Offline

Cool, I'd be interested in that!

--- On Tue, 6/30/09, healingmountain@... <healingmountain@...> wrote:

From: healingmountain@... <healingmountain@...>
Subject: Re: SV: [PulseDiagnosis] The effect of halusinogenic drugs
To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 1:16 AM

Will, that's a large topic for a late night reply! The short answer is that I am invested in finding a way to confirm one's constitutional diagnosis strictly via the pulse. I mean constitution in a broad sense that includes Worsley's CF, the Korean Constitutional Acupuncture tradition and many others. In this pursuit I have incorporated many acupuncture traditions, but also Ayurvedic pulse diagnosis which I studied under an excellent teacher for 5 years. When the bugs are sufficiently resolved, it will be a pleasure to report on my ideas.

Peter

In a message dated 6/29/09 2:16:07 PM, wmorris33@gmail. com writes:

Peter, I am interested in hearing about what you are working on now.

************ **
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122237 7075x1201454393/ aol?redir= http://www. freecreditreport .com/pm/default. aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Junestepsfooter NO62)

#4351

From: healingmountain@...
Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:28 am
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

eckmanpeter

Offline

Hi Will,

A brief answer: I do not think the carotid/radial ratio, nor the Extraordinary Meridian system is an indicator of the "constitution". There are several reasons for this, the most telling one being that both the ratios and the indicated Extraordinary Meridians can be seen to be variables that change from patient visit to visit. My criterion for a constitutional pulse is that it be invariant with respect to age, time, health status, etc.

Peter

In a message dated 6/30/09 6:57:12 AM, wmorris33@... writes:

Hi Peter,�

I think it might even be a large topic in the early morning armed with a brisk walk and tea. I have had an inkling to study Ayurvedic pulses. It was reading Vasant Lad's book on the subject that first tipped me towards what became the compass method. The compass method it turns out is confirmed in the Nan Jing and in the Bin Hu Mai Xue.�

When the discussion about the carotid-radial ratios, you clearly had studied the Japanese methods as van Meter teaches them, and the Korean methods as taught by Dan Lobash. I wonder where in the schema of constitutional thinking, you place that method?

Warmly,

Will

**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377075x1201454393/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62)

#4350

From: William Morris <wmorris33@...>
Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:54 pm
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

wmorris33

Offline

Hi Peter,�

I think it might even be a large topic in the early morning armed with a brisk walk and tea. I have had an inkling to study Ayurvedic pulses. It was reading Vasant Lad's book on the subject that first tipped me towards what became the compass method. The compass method it turns out is confirmed in the Nan Jing and in the Bin Hu Mai Xue.�

When the discussion about the carotid-radial ratios, you clearly had studied the Japanese methods as van Meter teaches them, and the Korean methods as taught by Dan Lobash. I wonder where in the schema of constitutional thinking, you place that method?

Warmly,

Will

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:16 AM, <healingmountain@...> wrote:

Will, that's a large topic for a late night reply!� The short answer is that I am invested in finding a way to confirm one's constitutional diagnosis strictly via the pulse.� I mean constitution in a broad sense that includes Worsley's CF, the Korean Constitutional Acupuncture tradition and many others.� In this pursuit I have incorporated many acupuncture traditions, but also Ayurvedic pulse diagnosis which I studied under an excellent teacher for 5 years.� When the bugs are sufficiently resolved, it will be a pleasure to report on my ideas.

Peter

In a message dated 6/29/09 2:16:07 PM, wmorris33@... writes:

Peter, I am interested in hearing about what you are working on now.

**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377075x1201454393/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62)

--
William R. Morris, PhD, DAOM, LAc

http://www.aoma.edu/

#4349

From: healingmountain@...
Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:37 am
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

eckmanpeter

Offline

John,

Thanks for the encouragement. If I do any teaching of this material, I will post a notice on this chatgroup. It is indeed a fascinating picture, seeing all the models interlocking in the same patient.

Peter

In a message dated 6/30/09 6:20:41 AM, johnkokko@... writes:

Peter,
if you ever set up speaking engagements,
it would be great if you could do a book-signing in the SF area.

I would be interested in seeing how the 3 doshas, 4 Sa sang and 5 phase dynamics
work in relation to each other on a single patient.

K

**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377075x1201454393/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62)

#4348

From: john kokko <johnkokko@...>
Date: Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:45 pm
Subject: Re: SV: The effect of halusinogenic drugs

mubonglim

Offline

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:16 PM, <healingmountain@...> wrote:

Will, that's a large topic for a late night reply!� The short answer is that I am invested in finding a way to confirm one's constitutional diagnosis strictly via the pulse.� I mean constitution in a broad sense that includes Worsley's CF, the Korean Constitutional Acupuncture tradition and many others.� In this pursuit I have incorporated many acupuncture traditions, but also Ayurvedic pulse diagnosis which I studied under an excellent teacher for 5 years.� When the bugs are sufficiently resolved, it will be a pleasure to report on my ideas.

Peter

In a message dated 6/29/09 2:16:07 PM, wmorris33@... writes:

Peter, I am interested in hearing about what you are working on now.

**************
A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377075x1201454393/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62)

--
John Kokko, L.Ac
Turtle Island Integrative Health
www.turtleclinic.com

TCM Review director
CA State Board Prep Courses
www.tcmreview.com