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Reply | Forward Message #3251 of 4879 |
Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Info

There are pulse features that remain and those that change.

 

The variables that Are is suggesting could be called the affect of the clinical interaction on the neurohumeral and neurovascular reflexes. The weaker the person, the more changeable they are. The more functional the disturbance, the more changeable it is and the more structural or substantive pathology will tend to change less.    

 

One set of features that impact changeability from practitioner to practitioner includes the depletions of essential substances. When shen is depleted the rate, amplitude and force can become inconsistent. The signs of depletion in the pulse such as thinness, lack of force, lack of amplitude and lack of root all reflect scenarios where the pulse can be more difficult to label. This is due to inconsistencies that occur when the heart gains qi and blood during a resting cycle and uses qi and blood during an activity cycle whether this be physical or emotional. Further, if the pulse has signs of qi depletion, then the wei qi and character armoring may be involved.

 

The excess pulses in general are more likely to present consistently regardless of the practitioner. Pulses that do not tend to change under the influence and presence of others include atherosclerotic pulses (Hammer's ropy), bounding and forceful pulses, drumskin and full pulses. Or take deep cotton; this pulse tends to reflect a depletion state and is typically very difficult to create change.  

 

These considerations are different than those pulse assessments that reflect a difference in volume from one position to another. Take for instance the diaphragm, if you get the patient to laugh, this pulse may very easily change. If the qi accumulates in an organ such as the spleen and there is also damp and qi depletion, then the qi may not easily flow towards the kidney or the heart. However, conversations that affect the yi and consciousness of possibilities or treatments that boost spleen qi may allow this qi to flow downstream and nourish the heart or kidney. The qi flow from spleen to kidney is the night time wei qi flow along the controlling cycle and the ying qi flow from the spleen to the heart is the channel clock flow.]

 

Ingrid – as far a demonstrating inter-rater reliability is concerned, this can be done. But you must set out to intentionally prove it. One could more easily set out to intentionally disprove inter-rater reliability. Either way – what has one proven?

 

In order to prove inter-rater reliability, certain problems in pulse diagnostic education have to be discussed. Take for instance level of pressure. If I press into the blood stream, I am far more likely to call the pulse slippery than if I press to the vessel wall. Here is the number one cause of inconsistent findings from practitioner to practitioner regarding a slippery or a bow-string label. Just as we could look at the proving or disproving of inter-rater reliability, we can find the slippery or bow-string depending on whether we focus on turbulence or tension.

 

Could it be that pulse diagnosis has value and significance outside of positivistic and mechanistic Newtonian science? Has our culture gone so far in to a need for evidence that we cannot see the obvious? The current devastation of the ecosphere is a byproduct of mechanistic and positivistic scientific values. We have to find a different way. Our body of evidence must become less biased towards quantitative assessments and embrace qualitative approaches to inquiry.

 

I am not sure that proving pulse diagnosis inter-rater reliability is as valuable as accurate and detailed reflections in the case notes. Full bodied phenomenological descriptors of both the practitioners and the patient's experiences will go a long way towards developing our conversations about pulse diagnosis. Case series within a group of practitioners who are sharing a common inquiry into pulse diagnosis – plus a series of interviews by an expert would also help in developing our body of knowledge.

 

Ingrid, all this said, we do have some studies (see below), and I am not sure if there are more at this time. They are reasonable designs and you should be aware of this work if you are setting out on this course. Sean Walsh is on the list and participated in the first study below. Sean, do you know of any further work in this area?

 

King E CD, Ryan D, Walsh S, Ryan D. The Reliable Measurement of Radial Pulse Characteristics. Acupuncture in Medicine. December 2002;20 (4)(December):150.

 

King E CD, Ryan D. The reliable measurement of radial pulse: gender differences in pulse profiles. 1: Acupunct Med. December 2002;20(4):160-167.

 

 

 



On 5/18/07, Are Thoresen <arethore@...> wrote:

We must remember that the mere presence of the therapist will influence the pulses of the patient.

Also that the pulse tend to show how that special therapist should treat.

The pulses may thus show quite different picture for different therapists.

 

Are

 

Are Thoresen

Gisleröd

N-3175 Ramnes

arethore@...

http://home .online/~arethore/

 


Fra: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com] Pĺ vegne av Ingrid
Sendt: 17. mai 2007 23:06
Til: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
Emne: Re: [PulseDiagnosis] Info

 

Hi Will,
Thanks for sharing this forum over the past 7 years!

I have a question for all of you out there studying pulses about a possible research question.  There is always the individual practitioner's interpretation of pulse; however, there should be some sense of inter-rater reliability. I know this is one of the reasons Will, as well as Dr. Shen and Hammer's other students, have been teaching pulse taking, so that discussions based on pulses can be understood by more than one or two individuals.

Would it be possible then to demonstrate to the academic world, namely the medical field, how pulse taking is a reliable method of diagnosis?  My proposal is to begin with a small study with 5-7 practitoners that all have similar amounts of training and pulse taking backgrounds, interview patients only by taking their pulses and doing a basic TCM diagnosis.  If these individual practitioners are able to give very similar to sa! me diagnoses without the other interview skills used for diagnosis, there would be a small but useful demonstration of how acupuncture works from the diagnosis to the treatment.  This is of course useful for allowing academia to say, yes, this is a reliable method of diagnosis and even though we don't know how acupuncture works itself, it demonstrates the individualized diagnoses that is used in treatment, even if the individuals all have the same allopathic diagnosis.



Have there been any demonstrations of such? and where could I find information on this?  My interest in this is from a patient who was curious as to what my interpretation of his pulses were in comparison to another practitioner's and how reliable the diagnostic procedures were for TCM.  I know there are many nuances with pulse diagnosis, but there are also nuances for interpreting a CAT scan or MRI and the better the practitioner or the more reliable the diagnositic technique, the more solid of! a diagnosis can be made. 

Thanks for your input!
Ingrid Park


WMorris116@... wrote:

Dear All -

We have approximately 688 members from all over the world. The list has grown as we aproach our 7th anniversary on May15.

Those of you who are new will find in the archives among the 3,332 messages some important discussions and pearls. Some of them from pulse significant diagnosis teachers who have passed away including Rory Kerr and James Ramholz. Also, be sure to check the files section. There are some great pulse diagnosis resources. For example Robert Baptist has a chart that provides an overview of neoclassical methods.

Will

 

William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
President Emeritus, AAAOM
2700 Anderson Ln 204
Austin, TX 78757
512-454-1188












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William R. Morris, DAOM
President Emeritus, AAAOM
Editor in Chief, American Acupuncturist

Fri May 18, 2007 1:21 pm

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Message #3251 of 4879 |
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Dear All - We have approximately 688 members from all over the world. The list has grown as we aproach our 7th anniversary on May15. Those of you who are new...
WMorris116@...
wmorris116
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Apr 20, 2007
1:08 pm

Will, Thanks for the info. Hope all is well. Vanessa WMorris116@... wrote: Dear All - We have approximately 688 members from all over the world. The list...
Vanessa Passov
vpassov
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Apr 20, 2007
5:19 pm

Hello Will, That's great news. Thanks for providing a forum for serious discussion of sophisticated methods of pulse diagnosis. Brandt Stickley ...
Brandt Stickley
kbstickley
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Apr 21, 2007
12:53 pm

As a student and future practioner, I appreciate all of the valuable information that passes through this site. Thank you to all that contribute. Dianne Said ...
Dianne
dacsaid
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Apr 21, 2007
11:12 pm

Hi Will, Thanks for sharing this forum over the past 7 years! I have a question for all of you out there studying pulses about a possible research question....
Ingrid
imparking
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May 17, 2007
10:16 pm

We must remember that the mere presence of the therapist will influence the pulses of the patient. Also that the pulse tend to show how that special therapist...
Are Thoresen
arethore@...
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May 18, 2007
11:49 am

There are pulse features that remain and those that change. The variables that Are is suggesting could be called the affect of the clinical interaction on the...
William Morris
wmorris33
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May 18, 2007
1:33 pm

HHi Will, Yes - there is also further work occurring with testing inter-rater agreement levels of practitioners using the Shen- Hammer system. This is...
Sean Walsh
sean2003walsh
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May 19, 2007
2:24 am

Thank you Will, Dr. Walsh, and Are for your responses! I will take all that was shared into consideration. I am thinking about proposing this as my doctoral...
Ingrid
imparking
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May 19, 2007
5:10 pm

Hi Ingrid, Now that I know the purpose of your inquiry, it becomes clearer as to what your possibilities are. The current DAOM program only have the capacity...
William Morris
wmorris33
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May 19, 2007
7:58 pm

Ingrid, Interesting project, but I guess that the results will be the same as when the Norwegian Medical Journal tried to evaluate the “Dowsers” of Norway....
Are Thoresen
arethore@...
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May 21, 2007
2:00 am
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