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Hey there Brandt,
Thanks for the input and the hand-heart circulatory system/heart analysis.
Yes , it is good to see activity on the list. It has an interesting cyclic nature that way. Part of it has to do with the fact that we keep it more academic rather than the community generating social and smaller talk. When I started the list, a goal was to keep the digital noise down. I see that there is a price for that which is in part the longer gaps of inactivity.
The list has 615 members from all over the world. Europe, the Middle East , the Far East and the Americas. Are there any other locations I have missed?
We will conduct a poll to see if there is interest in opening the dialogue a little further so that we can build as a community with a common interest in pulse diagnosis and the commensurate benefits that it poses to the practice of Chinese medicine and the benefit of humanity.
Will
Thanks for the input and the hand-heart circulatory system/heart analysis.
Yes , it is good to see activity on the list. It has an interesting cyclic nature that way. Part of it has to do with the fact that we keep it more academic rather than the community generating social and smaller talk. When I started the list, a goal was to keep the digital noise down. I see that there is a price for that which is in part the longer gaps of inactivity.
The list has 615 members from all over the world. Europe, the Middle East , the Far East and the Americas. Are there any other locations I have missed?
We will conduct a poll to see if there is interest in opening the dialogue a little further so that we can build as a community with a common interest in pulse diagnosis and the commensurate benefits that it poses to the practice of Chinese medicine and the benefit of humanity.
Will
William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
President, AAOM
2700 Anderson Ln 204
Austin, TX 78757
wmorris@...
President, AAOM
2700 Anderson Ln 204
Austin, TX 78757
wmorris@...
-----Original Message-----
From: kbstickley@...
To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 7:35 PM
Subject: SV: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Question on a pulse picture
Hi Carl,
Speaking of chemical exposures, a very slow rate is also a finding
associated with poisoning (whether through malice or industry or
both). Of course other findings such as Will describes are even more
significant. I also agree that going through the history to determine
he etiology is key to sorting out these questions.
You mentioned the patient's face being red. Have you compared the
coloring of the face to her hands? In Heart Shock (i.e. heart
affecting circulation), the face will be redder and the hands paler.
Pale face, red hands suggests circulation affecting the heart. One
course of Yunnan Bai Yao (if one chooses to use it) does not always do
it. Any acupuncture?
I'm glad to see activity here in the group.
sincerely,
Brandt Stickley
--- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com , WMorris116@... wrote:
>
> Carl -
>
> I saw a patient like this once before, they worked in a factory
with chemical exposures [the pulse had blood unclear (it gets slightly
wider and then narrow when using the lifting method)]. Under these
conditions, I used jin yinhua, gan cao and mu zei. The pulse rate
returned to normal after about ten days.
>
> I must offer up a word of caution in terms of ethics. We do not
know the ingredients of Yu Nan Bai Yao. However, we do know that the
little red ball contains cinnabar. I no longer prescribe these
materials, at least until the ingredients are provided.
>
> W
>
>
> William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
> President, AAOM
> 2700 Anderson Ln 204
> Austin, TX 78757
> wmorris@...
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: carlhenryk.wallmark@...
> To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 3:51 PM
> Subject: SV: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Question on a pulse picture
>
> Hi Will and Sean! Many thanks for your answers! Yes, I
am following the Shen/Hammer system, studying with Scott Towers and
using their terminology. The problem I have with this patient is
that I can not really find the root of the problem… I am
suspecting very early Heart shock, but the patient can not confirm
this in any way. I have performed the He shock treatment used in the
Shen/Hammer system (Yunnan baiyao 64 capsules + one red pill together
with modified Sheng mai san), since she initially also had Rough
vibrations (2-3) over her entire pulse at all depths. This treatment
cleared the vibrations and made her feel a little bit
better…..however not as good as I or her want J What I have a
problem with interpretating, is why this pulse is so very slow Rate
(43-48 bpm). I know the theory about long standing He shock draining
the He qi, yang and yin. The LDP somehow supports this. Could this be
something like that or? Her face is always very red, the tongue is
red and thin, lacking any coating. This together with the Tight (4)
would indicate a general yin def, I guess…do you agree? Will I have
tried to identify the most tight position, but they all feel as tight
(at least to my insensitive fingers)…. So I am most thankful for
suggestions regarding this patient! PULSE PICTURE: Rate: 43-48 bpm
Rate on exertion: 60-65 bpm Rhythm: Normal Wave: Flooding deficient
Entire pulse at Qi depth: Tight (3-4), Thin Entire pulse at Blood
depth: Tight (3-4), Robust Pounding (3), Blood Heat Entire pulse at
Organ depth: Tight (3-4), Robust pounding (3-4) The only position that
is other than Tight is the LDP, which is Deep, Feeble (4), no
vibrations Best regards Carl -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
> Från: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com ] För wmorris116
> Skickat: den 2 september 2006 17:33
> Till: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
> Ämne: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Question on a pulse picture Hi Sean,
>
> Good to 'hear' from you. Carl, who are you studying with? I assume it
> is the current stock of teachers who are certified by Dragon Rises. If
> that is the case, Sean, the use of the term tight implies a series of
> processes that began with qi stagnation which caused heat and this
> then toasted the yin making the vessels a little harder and more
> narrow. The best descriptor for this in the standard nomenclature is
> 'thready-wiry,' however, this term doesn't capture the hardness that
> is beginning to emerge. In Hammer's nomenclature 'tight' is not the
> 'jin mai' which is typically translated as tight and is representative
> of the influence of cold upon the neurovascular web. This is a typical
> expression of complexity in the human condition.
>
> Sean I like your descriptions of heart yang xu and will consider that
> as part of the dialectic.
>
> It would appear as thought the heart qi and yang are depleted to a
> degree and that there is yin xu elsewhere. Since the heart is the
> ruler, it defines the rate. Carl, I would look to see where the pulse
> is most 'tight' in Hammer's use of the term to distinguish a likely
> root of the yin depletion. Another area to examine is the arrival of
> the wave. In Hammer's terms, this would be the position that is most
> pounding (I use the term urgent) without force.
>
> Carl, the question for me is: how did this occur? I would search the
> history and continue the clinical inquiry until the thread of etiology
> is discovered.
>
> Sean, are you doing any further work on inter-rater reliability? I am
> thinking about something along those lines and am curious what y'all
> are up to in Australia.
>
> Regards to you all and happy holiday weekend!
>
> Will
>
> --- In PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com , Sean Walsh <sean.walsh@> wrote:
> >
> > Not sure about how to relate the other descriptions of the pulse
> within my own CM framework but the pulse rate is interesting if only
> 45bpm. Rate is coordinated by the heart Yang (heart rhythm is
> coordinated by the heart qi). the heart within a Five Phase (Wu Xing)
> context relates to joy. In this sense, is it the heart Yang - the
> internal emotional warmth aspect, that is vacuous/deficient and so
> being reflected in the pulse?
> > Additionally, if heart Yang is vacuous then the pulse wave will not
> expand and so the pulse may additionally be felt deep - of course this
> also relates to the level of depth of the 'illness' ie internal.
> Tense (as in increased tension in the arterial wall?) could in this
> instance relate to the constrained flow of Qi (or hyperactivity of the
> Liver Yang) - ie Liver related. From a Five Phase context is this
> constrained Liver Qi not feeding the Fire phase.
> > But, increase arterial tension (ie tense?) could equally indicate
> pain or Cold - this could confirm the Yang vacuous diagnosis (but Yang
> vacuity is often accompanied by cold signs and symptoms - not to
> mention fluid or oedematous type conditions if heart function is being
> affected).
> > Restful sleep requires the Shen to be nourished/housed. Again this
> relates to the heart and the Blood. Disturbed sleep results when the
> Shen isn't housed, Blood isn't suitably nourishing (ie aneamia) or
> there is emotional constraint agitating the Shen (ie Liver). (More
> information is required on the actual pattern of sleep disturbance to
> understand to which pattern it is relating to).
> >
> >
> > Dr Sean Walsh, Ph.D.
> > Lecturer
> > College of TCM
> > Dept Medical and Molecular Biosciences
> > University of Technology, Sydney
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr Sean Walsh, Ph.D.
> > Lecturer
> > College of TCM
> > Dept Medical and Molecular Biosciences
> > University of Technology, Sydney
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.wallmark@>
> > Date: Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:33 pm
> > Subject: [PulseDiagnosis] Question on a pulse picture
> > To: PulseDiagnosis@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > >
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > I have a question for you regarding the pulse picture of a
patient of
> > > mine..
> > >
> > > The rate is about 45 bpm
> > > LDP is deep, feeble (4), no vibrations
> > > The entire pulse is tight (4)
> > >
> > > The patient does not have any physical symptoms except some sleep
> > > difficulties (never sleeps through a whole night), and appears
to be
> > > well. Her main complaint is a feeling of not being able to be
> > > happy, no
> > > matter what good happens to her. She (and I) do not classify
her as
> > > depressive, but more a "lack of joy" .
> > >
> > > Any suggestions regarding the pulse?
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Carl Wallmark
> > >
> >
> __________________________________________________________
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures,
email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>
Speaking of chemical exposures, a very slow rate is also a finding
associated with poisoning (whether through malice or industry or
both). Of course other findings such as Will describes are even more
significant. I also agree that going through the history to determine
he etiology is key to sorting out these questions.
You mentioned the patient's face being red. Have you compared the
coloring of the face to her hands? In Heart Shock (i.e. heart
affecting circulation)
Pale face, red hands suggests circulation affecting the heart. One
course of Yunnan Bai Yao (if one chooses to use it) does not always do
it. Any acupuncture?
I'm glad to see activity here in the group.
sincerely,
Brandt Stickley
--- In PulseDiagnosis@
>
> Carl -
>
> I saw a patient like this once before, they worked in a factory
with chemical exposures [the pulse had blood unclear (it gets slightly
wider and then narrow when using the lifting method)]. Under these
conditions, I used jin yinhua, gan cao and mu zei. The pulse rate
returned to normal after about ten days.
>
> I must offer up a word of caution in terms of ethics. We do not
know the ingredients of Yu Nan Bai Yao. However, we do know that the
little red ball contains cinnabar. I no longer prescribe these
materials, at least until the ingredients are provided.
>
> W
>
>
> William R. Morris, DAOM, MSEd, LAc
> President, AAOM
> 2700 Anderson Ln 204
> Austin, TX 78757
> wmorris@...
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: carlhenryk.wallmark
> To: PulseDiagnosis@
> Sent: Sat, 2 Sep 2006 3:51 PM
> Subject: SV: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Question on a pulse picture
>
> Hi Will and Sean! Many thanks for your answers! Yes, I
am following the Shen/Hammer system, studying with Scott Towers and
using their terminology. The problem I have with this patient is
that I can not really find the root of the problem… I am
suspecting very early Heart shock, but the patient can not confirm
this in any way. I have performed the He shock treatment used in the
Shen/Hammer system (Yunnan baiyao 64 capsules + one red pill together
with modified Sheng mai san), since she initially also had Rough
vibrations (2-3) over her entire pulse at all depths. This treatment
cleared the vibrations and made her feel a little bit
better…..however not as good as I or her want J What I have a
problem with interpretating, is why this pulse is so very slow Rate
(43-48 bpm). I know the theory about long standing He shock draining
the He qi, yang and yin. The LDP somehow supports this. Could this be
something like that or? Her face is always very red, the tongue is
red and thin, lacking any coating. This together with the Tight (4)
would indicate a general yin def, I guess…do you agree? Will I have
tried to identify the most tight position, but they all feel as tight
(at least to my insensitive fingers)…. So I am most thankful for
suggestions regarding this patient! PULSE PICTURE: Rate: 43-48 bpm
Rate on exertion: 60-65 bpm Rhythm: Normal Wave: Flooding deficient
Entire pulse at Qi depth: Tight (3-4), Thin Entire pulse at Blood
depth: Tight (3-4), Robust Pounding (3), Blood Heat Entire pulse at
Organ depth: Tight (3-4), Robust pounding (3-4) The only position that
is other than Tight is the LDP, which is Deep, Feeble (4), no
vibrations Best regards Carl -----Ursprungligt meddelande--
> Från: PulseDiagnosis@
[mailto:PulseDiagnosis@
> Skickat: den 2 september 2006 17:33
> Till: PulseDiagnosis@
> Ämne: [PulseDiagnosis] Re: Question on a pulse picture Hi Sean,
>
> Good to 'hear' from you. Carl, who are you studying with? I assume it
> is the current stock of teachers who are certified by Dragon Rises. If
> that is the case, Sean, the use of the term tight implies a series of
> processes that began with qi stagnation which caused heat and this
> then toasted the yin making the vessels a little harder and more
> narrow. The best descriptor for this in the standard nomenclature is
> 'thready-wiry,
> is beginning to emerge. In Hammer's nomenclature 'tight' is not the
> 'jin mai' which is typically translated as tight and is representative
> of the influence of cold upon the neurovascular web. This is a typical
> expression of complexity in the human condition.
>
> Sean I like your descriptions of heart yang xu and will consider that
> as part of the dialectic.
>
> It would appear as thought the heart qi and yang are depleted to a
> degree and that there is yin xu elsewhere. Since the heart is the
> ruler, it defines the rate. Carl, I would look to see where the pulse
> is most 'tight' in Hammer's use of the term to distinguish a likely
> root of the yin depletion. Another area to examine is the arrival of
> the wave. In Hammer's terms, this would be the position that is most
> pounding (I use the term urgent) without force.
>
> Carl, the question for me is: how did this occur? I would search the
> history and continue the clinical inquiry until the thread of etiology
> is discovered.
>
> Sean, are you doing any further work on inter-rater reliability? I am
> thinking about something along those lines and am curious what y'all
> are up to in Australia.
>
> Regards to you all and happy holiday weekend!
>
> Will
>
> --- In PulseDiagnosis@
> >
> > Not sure about how to relate the other descriptions of the pulse
> within my own CM framework but the pulse rate is interesting if only
> 45bpm. Rate is coordinated by the heart Yang (heart rhythm is
> coordinated by the heart qi). the heart within a Five Phase (Wu Xing)
> context relates to joy. In this sense, is it the heart Yang - the
> internal emotional warmth aspect, that is vacuous/deficient and so
> being reflected in the pulse?
> > Additionally, if heart Yang is vacuous then the pulse wave will not
> expand and so the pulse may additionally be felt deep - of course this
> also relates to the level of depth of the 'illness' ie internal.
> Tense (as in increased tension in the arterial wall?) could in this
> instance relate to the constrained flow of Qi (or hyperactivity of the
> Liver Yang) - ie Liver related. From a Five Phase context is this
> constrained Liver Qi not feeding the Fire phase.
> > But, increase arterial tension (ie tense?) could equally indicate
> pain or Cold - this could confirm the Yang vacuous diagnosis (but Yang
> vacuity is often accompanied by cold signs and symptoms - not to
> mention fluid or oedematous type conditions if heart function is being
> affected).
> > Restful sleep requires the Shen to be nourished/housed. Again this
> relates to the heart and the Blood. Disturbed sleep results when the
> Shen isn't housed, Blood isn't suitably nourishing (ie aneamia) or
> there is emotional constraint agitating the Shen (ie Liver). (More
> information is required on the actual pattern of sleep disturbance to
> understand to which pattern it is relating to).
> >
> >
> > Dr Sean Walsh, Ph.D.
> > Lecturer
> > College of TCM
> > Dept Medical and Molecular Biosciences
> > University of Technology, Sydney
> >
> >
> >
> > Dr Sean Walsh, Ph.D.
> > Lecturer
> > College of TCM
> > Dept Medical and Molecular Biosciences
> > University of Technology, Sydney
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Carl Henryk Wallmark <carlhenryk.
> > Date: Thursday, August 31, 2006 10:33 pm
> > Subject: [PulseDiagnosis] Question on a pulse picture
> > To: PulseDiagnosis@
> >
> > >
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > I have a question for you regarding the pulse picture of a
patient of
> > > mine..
> > >
> > > The rate is about 45 bpm
> > > LDP is deep, feeble (4), no vibrations
> > > The entire pulse is tight (4)
> > >
> > > The patient does not have any physical symptoms except some sleep
> > > difficulties (never sleeps through a whole night), and appears
to be
> > > well. Her main complaint is a feeling of not being able to be
> > > happy, no
> > > matter what good happens to her. She (and I) do not classify
her as
> > > depressive, but more a "lack of joy" .
> > >
> > > Any suggestions regarding the pulse?
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Carl Wallmark
> > >
> >
> ____________
> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures,
email and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>
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