Hi,

This is a big step for me to express what i've been through in the
past 3 years.  I hope that by sharing my experience with others in
this forum I will be able to better confirm my abusive relationship
and heal from it.  I'm still in the bewilderment stage of healing...
i still have shock,anxiety,panic,anger,sorrow,shame, and low low low
self-esteem... I'm riddled with fear of having let this happen to me
and on top of that fearful of being alone and on top of that -
feeling as though this is perhaps what i deserved for my own wrong
doings and greed.

As a married woman, i have been seeking intimacy and compassion from
my husband of 10 years at the time i met my former lover
(narcisstist's).  I was lonely beyond what i could express to my
family and friends and distanced myself from my husband who did not
know how to show compassion and love in husbandly way.  He wasn't
exposed to that sort of caring way or wasn't brought up knowing how
to... whatever the reason.

After 8 years into the marriage and multiple attempts to leave my
marriage I always settled not to make the big move of leaving him
out of fear - fear of losing security and spoiling my families name.

I had an affair with another married man which was only sexual and
even though i was involved to a certain degree emotionally, it was
the physical contact i desparately seeked and it validated that i
was an attractive female and nothing could be wrong with me
physically and how good it felt to be attracked by a male.

This relationship lasted a little over one year... it ended
physically after my husband and i moved to another state.  The
former lover and i still stayed in contact via email and he came
through the state i now moved to once when all we did was kiss.  I
always felt dirty after every meeting with him... but it didn't stop
me from wanting to feel needed in that way.

Then in the new place where i moved to, i joined a new company and
started my job.  I came to find out that someone in the company
enquired about me and asked if i was married or not... to which my
boss told them i was.  Knowing that someone was interested in ME was
really all i needed to know to flatter me and to top it off - he was
indian (from India) which is where I'm originally from was like
icing on top.  I am an Indian female born in India and raised in
America.  I've been in the US for 30 years now.  My parents brought
us up in the states with traditional indian values.  To make a long
story short - i had an arranged marriage despite my rebelling
against it.  I gave in to my parents finally at the age of 21.

Now back to this Indian man that showed interest in me... I wondered
for several weeks who this man was and what he looked like.  I
finally had 2 of my co-workers on my team go and introduce me to
him... when i met him - i felt a soul connection with him almost
immediately.  I remember feeling things that I'd never felt
before.   After that initial introduction, nothing happened... until
finally one day, I looked us his name in the company directory and
called him at his desk.

In our conversation, I was asking him what he was still doing at
work (being there late and all)... the conversation went on about me
asking him about his passion for golf and such and he asked if I was
married... he sounded so shy on the phone (kind of childlike
innocense)... i told him, yes that i was married... the conversation
ended by him agreeing to show me how to hit golf balls at a range
and a date was arranged.

I remember going home that evening as if on my first date and was
estatic about the whole - butterflies in my stomach and all.  I
remeber getting ready as my husband was getting ready to go to work
and telling him i was going to the golf range and that this male
coworker was going to meet me to show me how to play.  Right away
this hurt my husbands feelings because he noticed how i didn't even
invite him... he brought this up in a conversation later down the
road to which i appologized for and admitted it was wrong of me to
have treated him that way.  I felt guilty for treating him so
unkindly yet my own greed for wanting to feel loved was more
overpowering then my guilt for my misconduct...

Writing all this makes me question how i could have been so
inconsiderate of all those around me (especially my husband - and I
somehow feel that all the years we were married I clearly
communicated to him what i needed from him and he flat out told me
that i was not his number one priority... so somehow my hurt and
anger towards him for not being able to be compassionate with me
justified my right to feel loved even if it was with an outsider).
I by no means meant to stay in the marriage while remaining with a
lover - i stayed because of fear of leaving and shaming the family.

Anyway, this new person, I'll call him "Ugly" because that's how I
see him now.  Our relationship started off with a long phone
conversation, then hitting golf balls at the range when I invited
home to have dinner with my husband and me to which he turned down
later telling me that he couldn't face my husband knowing he was
attracked to me.  Then a movie at his house and one at the theaters.

I felt so good around him and i knew he felt good around me.  He
would constantly compliment me on how beautiful i was and even more
so how beautiful my hair was - he was absolutely fascinated with my
hair.  I went to a Halloween costume party he had at his house with
several other co-workers and I was elated by the attention he was
giving me - he and I danced for a very short while as I was a bit
embarrassed of not really knowing how to dance and all - but I later
told him how that was the first time I'd ever danced with another
man.

The first time I got in the car with him to go to lunch  I remember
him telling me something and I replied to him "becareful what you
wish for" meaning I was interested in him and he might just get me.
Ironically though it was me who would be haunted by that phrase in
the end.

Then the first time we went out to see a movie, he stood behind me
in line for popcorn and asked can we get married... I turned around
and smiled - i was clearly love struck by him and thought there's no
way a man as handsome as he is and as intelligent as he is could
ever be interested in me.

During the movie, we held hands and I felt butterflies like I'd
never experienced before in my entire life.

Ugly use to pamper me like no other.  Here's just a few of things he
did over the 3 year relationship we had:

1. Compliment me on how beautiful i was
2. Give me gifts (very expensive ones and little ones)
3. He'd leave me either a note, a song, or a gift on my desk at work
every single day for a little over a year into our relationship (I'd
BEG him not to give me anyone more gifts and theartened him that I
would not accept another one from him no matter how expensive (big)
or inexpensive (small) it was.  I felt extemely uncomfortable
accepting gifts from him day in and day out - it was clearly out of
hand from my point of view.  Day in and day out he'd convince me
that it was the last one... i partically gave up because it was so
exhausting to turn down accepting his gifts in fear that i was
hurting his feelings and he was doing this out of his LOVE for me.
He was so infactuated with me that it was too much.
4. He'd constantly tell me of other girls who were interested in him
but that he only had eyes and love for me.  I'd constantly ask that
he pursue those girls.  I was exhausted by his showing interest in
me with such INTENSITY that it scared me to think how he could love
me so much and here i was a married woman and didn't know how to
leave my husband and felt as though i was using him and that he
deserved so much better than that.
5. He would take me to lunch nearly almost every single day and
would always pay for my lunch... i use to argue with him for doing
that and would ask that he stop doing that and threatened him that
I'd stop going to lunch with him if he kept paying for my lunch...
like the gift giving he'd tell me he'd stop doing it but wouldn't.
6. He complemented me on my physical appearance, how i dressed, my
hair, how I talked, my voice, how beautiful my eyes were, etc.
7. He'd tell me how his other friends/co-workers spoke so highly of
me and how they'd tell him to go after me (he said one of his
friends said "so what" when he told him I was married)
8. The compliments were overwhelming and he never ceased to come up
with them and express them to me with sheer happiness... even when
i'd brush them away and ask that he not keep expressing them to me
and that i wasn't worthy of them

Throughout this time period, we'd gotten intimately closer to one
another.  He told me about one of his sisters (younger sister) who
was married and divorced and then got in a relationship with a
married man and got pregnant with him and hid the pregnancy from the
family until it was time to have the baby.  He said his parents were
heart broken but accepted the child.  He said that he despised the
man that did that to his sister and left her by fleeing back to
India and leaving his sister alone and pregnant.  I felt for him and
thought what a rightous man Ugly was and how unworthy i was of his
attention and love for what I was doing to him ( I felt as though I
was using him on the side as I remained married).

I must mention that I did approach my mother before having had an
intimate relationship with Ugly about wanting to leave my marriage.
My mother, father, and my sister's father-in-law convinced me out of
doing that.  I once again let the fear of leaving my husband get the
best of me and Ugly even supported me in trying to make my marriage
work and that he was wrong in wanting me to be with him when I was a
married a woman.  He'd always tell me how bad he felt for being with
me and how wrong it was that we were together... but that he loved
me so much and unlike anyone else he'd ever loved.

7 months after I joined the same company Ugly was working out and
after we'd been together for about 5 1/2 months (intimately)... we
were planning a trip to the beach together (Ugly, another close
friend of mine from work and me) for 3 days.  We were to leave on
the weekend one week after my sister joined the company and came in
to work for Ugly (he would be her lead).  It was through him that I
was able to bring my sister into the company - it so happened that
he had an opening in his group and made it possible for her to get a
job there.  I knew he'd done this for me because he was so love
struck for me.

Well, that same week, I recieved a phone call from the man i had had
a relationship with in the past and he said he'd be coming through
town and I told him how I was going away for the weekend and then he
said how he might drop in at the beach - i didn't know what to say
to him about that other than I had not decided if I was really going
yet or not.

I then told my sister at her cube that my former friend had called
and said all that he did and that i wasn't sure if i wanted to go on
this trip or not.  Then i also wanted to cancel because i knew that
i couldn't keep it from my sister that i was going with a female
friend of mine and Ugly - she would clearly oppose to Ugly going
with us sense of course i'm married and why would i want him to also
go along unless I was attracted to him.  Ugly overheard my
conversation with my sister about not wanting this other man to meet
me at the beach... I wasn't trying to keep it confidential or
anything.  I knew that I wanted nothing to do with and didn't want
to see him again... but didn't know how to tell him that... (I never
have known how to just tell someone right out that I don't want to
be bothered by them - always have to be nice).

Anyway, I told Ugly that I felt uncomfortable going away for the
weekend with him and another friend of mine while my sister was
there at work only for one week.  He told me I shouldn't worry about
it and I told him that I had to tell her that the 3 of us were
planning on going and that we're all going only as friends.  He said
he wanted to be there when I told her this and so the 3 of us (my
sister, Ugly, and I went out to lunch) i told her that we were all
going as friends and nothing more and that nothing would happen on
the trip - he told her the same.

The whole car drive to the beach we (my friend, Ugly and I) sang
songs along with the CD's and later he told me about his first love
and I listened intensely and felt so sad for him that he never
married her because by the time he came back from overseas to marry
her she had already married someone else due to her family pressure.

Once at the beach he wanted to spend every second he could with me.
My friend knowing how much he cared for me left us to ourselves and
went about her own way to relax on the beach.  He and I went for a
long long bike ride the first day we were there.  We'd stop
occassionally and during those stops on the bike track he'd kiss me
so passionately.  I felt uncompfortable doing that with him out in
the open - with other bikers and passerbys.

I expressed to him how i just wanted to be friends with him (nothing
up to this point had gone wrong in our relationship - i was
overwhelmed with his over-the-top love for me... and I felt almost
suffocated by it and didn't know how to stop it without feeling
guilty or without hurting him).  He told me he already had enough
friends and didn't need me as a friend if that's all I wanted.

I'll never forget the first time we made love - I was the one who
initiated it and it was very early on into our relationship (may be
just over a month or month and a half after we'd gotten to know
eachother).  I remember stroking his private parts and he was limp,
couldn't get an erection and my head was spinning inside thinking oh
my goodness, what have i gotten myself into and thinking of my god
what do I do... i can't be with someone who can't get an errection.
I continued to kiss him and rub him and all the while make it seem
as if everything was perfectly fine... i could tell he was nervous
and a bit uncomfortable so I continued to kiss him and stroke him
and guide him into me... it was quick and weird and uncomfortable -
i felt as though i had taken advantage of him and he left my
apartment that evening feeling exposed and uncomfortable.  After
that night I took it upon myself to not make him feel uncomfortable
and anytime he brought up that night I'd tell him not to worry about
it.  Infact we became very sexual with one another after that and
I'd bring him to an erection and show him that he was ok... he'd
even take Viagra a few times to achieve an erection and always
commented on how he wasn't good enough in bed.

Everysingle time after making love, he'd say how he didn't perform
well enough and I'd constantly re-enforce that he was perfectly fine
and that I enjoyed making love to him... and I did.  The part I
hated was having to console him  after it was over.  Making love to
him was a mixture of ecstacy and disappointment for me.  Ecstacy in
that I loved it physically and disappointment in that emotionally it
was eating away at me that i was cheeting on my husband.

Anyway back to our beach trip.  One night after riding bikes we both
slept in the same bed as my friend  slept in the other in the same
room.  He got me to make love to him as she slept and I was scared
to death but wanted to make him happy  (of course - that's all I
wanted).  The next day, I noticed that my friend was not talking to
either one of us for the entire day.  I told him how uncomfortable I
was with her silence and told him i think she knows of our
relationship and must of known we fooled around that night and is
disappointed in us.  I told him I wanted to tell her about us.  He
told me that any friend of mine wouldn't treat me the way she was
and that she wouldn't be able to comprehend it anyway.  So I didn't
tell her.  He wasn't even bothered by her silence and he didn't skip
a beat about wanting to do the things he wanted and of course he
asked that I do things with him sense he was doing them all for me.

A few days after our return from the beach my friend told me that
she was ignoring me because she was upset over a misunderstanding
she and I had over something else and had nothing to do with Ugly
and me.

I still never did tell her about Ugly's relationship and mine.  A
month after our beach trip I was over at Ugly's house one night and
out of nowhere Ugly started accusations of me having a relationship
with another man.  I became defensive and denied all accusations.
He then asked who such and such was and what was the real reason why
I didn't want to go to the beach?  He pounded me with accusations of
having a sexual relationship with this other person until I broke
down into tears and gave in and admitted that i did have a sexual
relationship with this other man.  I told him that we'd only been
together once.  I was in a fetal position against a wall and crying
frantically and asking him for forgiveness.  He too  sat down and
held me as I cried and with tears in his eyes asked how could i do
this to him and what did he do to deserve this.  As I cried
uncontrolably, he held me and said I still want to marry you.  I
couldn't believe what I was hearing and cried my eyes out.  I was so
scared of him and what he might think of me and how I'd lost the one
person I'd loved more than anyone else and wanted to be with yet
didn't know how to be with him without getting a divorce and how to
even go about doing that and the fear of my family finding out all
that has been going on and now Ugly knew about my past secret.  I
was scared beyond belief.

Ugly held me as I cried and comforted me tell I could calm myself
down and drive home.  Every time I'd leave his house and drive home
I would call him as soon as I reached my house so that he'd know I
reached home safely.

After that night, our relationship was never ever the same again.
The verbal abuse began from that night forward for the next 2 to 2
1/2 years.  He constantly would ask me how many times I'd slept with
this other man and made me look him straight in the eyes and answer
him.  After many denials of having slept with this man more than
once... under constant acquastions and pressure I gave in once again
and told him more than once.  He then told me that he came to know
that I was still in touch with the person because he'd read my
emails from him before our trip to the beach and he asked why was I
envolved with him if I was continuing to see this other guy.  I told
him how I wasn't seeing this other guy nor anyone else and that i
only was with him.  He told me that that's not what the emails look
like.  He would be so angry that it scared the daylights out of me
to see how angry he was... he'd never laid a hand on me though.  He
just expressed how much he loved me and couldn't believe that I
could treat him the way I had knowing how much he'd done for me and
how much he'd loved me and how I could just lie to him over and over
and over again and how much he hated people who lied.

He'd constantly through my wrong doing in my face and each time it
would lead to my crying and profound appologies to him for hurting
him in such a way.  He'd then appologize to me for making me so sad
and say how he wouldn't bring it up again but how much it killed him
to think I was seeing another  guy and being with him and making him
a fool or a joke.  I begged him not to think that way and that the
relationship with this other guy ended before anything happened
between him and me.

I even told the other guy not to ever again send emails to me.  I
never heard from him again.  Ugly would constantly accuse me of my
past relationship and how much I'd hurt him with that and then he
began accusing me with being very flitatous with other men and then
accused me of sleeping with them.  This was all too much for me, I
constantly found myself appologizing for things that weren't even
true and begging him to forgive me.  I even degraded myself in front
of him repeatedly telling him I was like a whore, sleeze, etc.
demeaning myself out of guilt and shame and telling him that I
didn't deserve him.  He'd appologize for making me cry and then
treated me so sweetly and on many occassions make love to me... even
force himself upon me until I gave into making love to him.  Then he
would appologize for his lack of performance and how he needed to
quit making love to me sense I was married and not force me when I
didn't want to do it, etc. etc.

I always comforted him and would tell him how good he was in bed and
how I too wanted to be with him and agreed that we shouldn't be
together.

He constantly pushed me away and then brought me back in.  This went
on and on.  Through out our entire roller-coaster relationship he'd
always tell me how this girl that girl wanted him yet he'd wait only
for me - even after all that he knew of me.

I could go on with so many details... but it really will take
forever.

Then one day he must have decided that enough was enough and he
distanced himself from me.  Whenever I'd call him to just talk he'd
act angry and hateful and clearly showed he didn't want to be
bothered.  I got the message after a few phone calls like that and
kept my distance from him.  For awhile I even breathed a little
easier.  He then called me once and told me that this girl he'd had
a crush on before he'd met me was going to move in with him and that
he wasn't looking for anything but that she needed a place to stay
till she found a house and that she'd asked him if she could stay
with him and he said she could.  I acted happy for him knowing how
much he hated going to an empty home and being alone.  I told him
that I was happy for me because I thought he was still in love with
me and I wasn't threatened by her.

After she'd moved in with him, he'd call me still at work and every-
once-in-a-while tell me how happy he was to go home to her and her 2
year-old daughter.  How she was cooking for him... and how crazy the
little daughter was for him.  I always expressed my happiness for me.
Then with all the guilt and shame I'd felt over the years for having
stepped out of my marriage I decided that I was going to leave my
marriage.  The only person who knew of my decision to do this was my
husband who supported me in my decision stating that I needed to do
what would make me happy.

I didn't tell Ugly I was looking for a house and leaving my husband
because I wanted it to be for me not for him and i wasn't sure if he
and i would even have a future together... yet in the back of my
mind I couldn't wait to tell him after I'd bought a house to call
him and ask him over for dinner and see how elated he'd be.

Well, one day at work (Aug. 11, 2002) Ugly called me and said I
thought I should tell you that "my roommate told me we're offically
dating"  I could not believe what I had heard and felt as though a
baseball bat had hit me in the chest and I could not breath.
Somehow I found the words to tell him I was happy for him and said
bye and put the phone down and tried to catch my breath.

A few minutes later he was in my cube and when i saw him I broke
down and quickly walked past him and ran into the ladies room at
work and sobbed in a stall so no one would see me.  After composing
myself I came out expecting him to be standing outside for him yet
he was not around.

I then told him on the phone that I was leaving my husband and
finding a house for myself.  He first said something along the
lines... Oh my God, this is all do to what I've done wrong, all this
is on my shoulders, I don't deserver to be with anyone, I deserver
to be alone, I'm not going to be with you or her, I'm going to be
alone for the rest of my life.  He sounded so angry and as if this
was a punishment to him.  He then asked why I was doing this now, he
kept yelling "why now, why now, why now, just like that".  He
insisted that I don't leave my husband and to try and make the
marriage work.  My head was spinning out of control thinking he'd be
happy to hear I was leaving my husband and that he'd talk to this
girl and tell her he couldn't be with her because he wanted to be
with me.

That was the exact opposite of what I got.  Instead he was furious
with me and treated me with hatered like I'd never seen before in my
entire life... he made me feel as if I was a schizo (sp) and that he
wanted to be with this other girl and that he'd moved on.

He even went to counseling with me once to tell my therapist that he
had had a crush on this girl before he'd ever met me and that he
wanted to give their relationship a try.

He told me sorry.  I could not believe what I was going through.
That the very same man who expressed his uncondtional love and
devotion to me and how he'd wait for me (3 years or a life time if
I'd be his) had now moved on with another person and treated me with
disgust.  I told him how I didn't expect him to come back to me but
didn't understand why he had to treat me so badly and with such
disgust and hatered... and that all I wanted from him was some
dignity and respect.

He told me once at a reastaurant how I'd hurt him more than anyone
else and treated him like dog crap... I got up that day and left him
knowing I wasn't going to take it anymore from him... especially
after he'd moved on with another girl and was still verbally abusing
me for all his pain.  Enough was enough.

I lived in frantic fear and would have and tried to show him how
desparate i was for him and how badly I wanted to have something
with him.

He kept me on a string the whole time he was with her and misled me
to thinking that she didn't really want him or that his sisters
didn't like her... he played cruel teasing games with me.  During
this time I'd moved into my own house (a week after I'd found out he
was dating this girl I bought a new home and month later moved into
it.)  I never had any empathy from him during this time.  He was off
going on vacations with his new love interest and wanted nothing to
do with me.  I was in thearapy.  My councelor had met him on 3 or 4
other occassions when it was he who wanted to desparately be with
me.  Ironically, the last visit he agreed to come with me was when
he told her that he wanted to work on this other relationship with
his new girlfriend.

While he was dating this new girl, in phone conversations when I'd
tell him how much pain I was going through he'd say things to me
like...

1. see how the tables have turned, do you see how it feels
2. now you'll know what it's like to be alone (see how it feels
after 6 months)
3. don't you think it's a little to late (when I'd tell him how much
I wanted him and loved him)

He'd come down to my cube with a pitful looking face acting as if he
was sorry for the pain I was going through.  He'd call me every once
in a while to ask how I was doing... and then when I'd open up he'd
say something like "what did you think I was going to wait
forever?"  Those kinds of things would make me hurt to the bone and
depths of my soul... I confessed to my closest friend (the one who'd
gone to the beach with us) and she was there for me like a devoted
sister (an angel) listening to my cries and advising me to stay away
from him - she echoed everything my councelor was telling me.
Then one day, he called me to tell me that his new girlfriend dumped
him and I told him I was sorry to her that and meant it.  He said I
thought you'd like to know and now I'll spend the rest of my life
alone.


I finally realized that he was enjoying seeing me suffer and getting
a thrill out of it somehow bringing me to my knees that one day I
told him that I wanted nothing to do with him anymore and for him to
not have any communication with me unless it was business related.
He acted so hurt by this and begged me not to end it like this.  I
told him that day he didn't know what love was and he had an
expression of shock on his face and said "I don't know what love is"
as if that was the greatest insult.  I told him I meant it and not
to talk to me unless it was work related and left in my car.  I went
to a buddist center that I'd been visiting to help me spiritually
heal from the devastation i was going through and that day I told
the buddist monk about my 2 affairs and how I was going through a
divorce and cried as i told her a my worst secretes.  She listened
and showed empathy towards me (to my surprise) and told me that I
was punishing myself way to much for all my wrong doings and that I
need to focus on getting better and staying on the right path.

I spent several sessions with her - learning mediatation and
volunteered at the center by staying overnight at the center sense
there was no other female monk to accompany her.  These individual
sessions helped me calm myself  during all that was going on... we
didn't talk about my situation but I just felt like being around a
spiritual person and place helped calm my mind.

I had lost my appetite eversince Aug. 11, 2003 and could not eat
hardly at all. Days, Weeks, went by where I'd only eat one bite of
something or nothing at all.  In 6 weeks I'd lost 23 pounds.  Ugly
even made jokes of how skinny I was getting and how I had a punie
little ass.  I was clearly devasted by all that was going on and it
took every cell in my body to compose myself enough to get up each
night and go into work.  The only people now that knew what was
going on were my best friend (who was now in New York), my counselor
and the buddist monk.

Ugly honored my wishes and did not contact me unless it was work
related.
Then a month or so later, I found out that his mother had a heart
attack.  I immediately called him, thinking his ex-girlfriend was
still living with him but called him to express my sympathy.  I
realized that he was at home alone and asked if i could come by to
see him and he said if I wanted to but that he was ok.

I went and bought some food for him and as scared as i was to go
into his house after so long and after his ex-girlfriend moved out.
I gave him the food and told him how sorry I was to hear about his
mother and hoped that she got well soon and asked if there was
anything i or my family could do to help to let us know.  I even
offered to sleep on his couch which he said no thanks to.  I left
him that night letting him know that he could me if he needed
anything.  He thanked me and that was that.

The next weeks to follow he updated me on his mother's condition.
Slowly we began talking again... mostly about his mother.  I even
asked him to a movie once which didn't work out do to timing.
Slowly but surely though it was if things were turning around for
us. We started spending time together again... he told me that he
never stopped caring for me... and that he wanted to take things
extremly slowly after all he's gone through.  I didn't want to lose
him again and also wanted to take things slowly.  I still felt
uncomfortable around him though and wasn't really  sure myself if he
and I were right for eachother - especially after I'd experienced
how hateful he could be and seen anger in him like I'd never seen or
imagined or was blinded to before.

The 2 months after visiting him about his mothers condition he told
me that he'd like for us to forget about the past we'd had and for
us to look towards the future.  We'd kissed and fondled eachother
again on several occassions and I'd told him that I didn't want to
make love to him until my divorce was final and on another occassion
told him that I didn't want to do that until after we were married.
He agreed and would give me teasing smiles and on one occassion said
if he wanted it it wouldn't take him much to make me make love to
him.

I cried one day out of anger and told him how cruel he was to me
while dating this other girl... and how he thought i'd left my
husband for him to which i told him he wasn't even worth that much
and not to get his ego over inflated thinking that.

He laughed at me and calmed me down and said ok ok, lets just put
the past behind us and work for a future.  He said all the right
things to make me feel like he cared about me.

Then he was going to India to see his mother and bring them back to
the states to look after her till she got better.  Before he left
for India he told me that his mother would try and force him to get
married and that this time it may actually work because she would be
good at making him feel guilty.  I told him he needed to do what
made him and his family happy and that if that's what he wanted I
didn't want to stop him.  He reassured me that he cared about me...
he said he had 3 concerns:

1. getting his parents blessings for us (which he said he could talk
to them about and saw no problem in getting them to understand)
2. his temper - he agreed he needed to work on it but that it may
not get any better any time soon and that I'd have to understand that
3. can't remember this one

I dropped him off at the airport feeling assured that he loved me
and wanted something with me...

alot happened while he was in India...

Upon is return... the same Ugly did not come back - it was again the
mean dispecable man I'd come to love yet never existed.

To make this long story short - he told me he couldn't face his
parents and tell them that he had feeling for a woman going through
a divorce that that would kill his mother and she was weak...

He walked away from the relationship and hasn't spoken to me sense.
He walked away from me on April 1, 2004 after I begged and pleated
with him to give us a chance... he said he couldn't face being the
reason i left my husband and that he couldn't kill his mother if she
were to find out about us...

I live today in complete devastion of what's happened and unable to
comprehend how someone could have loved me so intensely when i was
not available and would propose his unconditional devotion and love
to me and express how he much he wanted to be with me and was
willing to talk to my father to fight for me... to this man who now
couldn't face his parents in fear that it would kill them and i was
availble and how he had always told me that he would marry someone
he loved not by arranged marriage.

I am in total confusion mainly of his actions and for my allowing
him to verbally, emotionaly and sexually abuse me all these years.

How could I have ignored all the red flags and taken on all the
blame... how stupid and pitful i was... God help me!!!!!!!!!

Hi Mustard. Do you have children with a P?  Do find out about
bankrupcy laws. Your documentation will be crucial. Good luck, I
know this is going to be a rough time for you.

Take Care
femfree

i have finally decided to end the marriage, however i am now deeply
in debt (everything in my name). where do i begin?

i have finally decided to end the marriage, however i am now deeply
in debt (everything in my name). where do i begin?

Hi Jen and Welcome. You sound like such an intelligent, level-headed
person. We can't detect them in the beginning because they go to
such extreme lengths to hide their Jekyll/Hyde personalities and
unless one is an expert N-detector - and who can possibly have those
skills, they are very successful at hooking a target.

That's what you were - a target for him.

Now, the part of his trying to hoover you back into the relationship
MAY begin. Some do (most in fact) however, others give up, they know
the game is over and they move on. And, when they do try to hoover
us back it becomes up to us to end it.
Here's a quote from Dr. Sam Vaknin that helps explain the
N's 'twisted' thinking

A post-mortem of a relationship conducted with a narcissist is very
frustrating because it never achieves closure. The narcissist is
interested exclusively in allocating blame and generating guilt -
not in progressing, developing, atoning, soothing, or concluding
anything. Such exercises in futility are best avoided.
Sam Vaknin, PhD, Author Malignant Self Love, Narcissism Revisited
http://samvak.tripod.com/thebook.html

The very best therapists tell us to self impose a rigid "No Contact"
period with the N. It's difficult to see the forest for the trees in
these relationsips and that precious time we take for ourselves is
where the constant chaos, confusion and their abusive behaviours
comes out with learning as much as we can as fast as we can and
protecting ourselves financially and emotionally - a must for all of
us.

I know you'll do well Jen. You are a strong lady and quite frankly
you are able to see through him quickly and take steps to eliminate
the craziness from your life by moving. Your daughter has a rich
example in you of how to say 'No' to life's bullies - well done.

Welcome again, and please do feel free to visit our Psychopath and
Narcissistic PD forums

http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/home1.msnw

http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/home.msnw

Our forums offer over 1000 links to learn about these disorders and
incuded are hundreds about learning about ourselves. After all,
that's the best lesson of all isn't it.

And, LOL $1.99 for his spaghetti is way too much!! LOL

Taking great care - of ourselves
femfree
(financial and emotional freedom)
The narcissist idealizes and then DEVALUES and discards the object
of his initial idealization. This abrupt, heartless devaluation IS
abuse. ALL narcissists idealize and then devalue. This is THE core
of pathological narcissism. The narcissist exploits, lies, insults,
demeans, ignores (the "silent treatment"), manipulates, controls.
All these are forms of abuse.
What kind of a spouse/mate/partner is likely to be attracted to a
Narcissist? Faq#6 - Dr. Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq6.html

I wanted to thank you Pamela, for your encouraging words and info. on
the books you mentioned. I havent read either one but plan to this
weekend. I"m also sorry to hear about your struggles as well. Its
hard for me to believe their are other men/people who behave like
this...I felt really alone with it.

I may have found a house to rent, will find out Friday if I got it.
Im doing all my looking/planning at work and using my office phone
number so that he wont be privy to my business.

Today I got a lecture from him on how disresptful I was to him the
other day when I kidded around with him about charging 1.99 for a
plate of spagetti. (It was his idea for us to buy our own individual
food and I had made spagetti for my daughter and I and thought it was
absurd that he not eat any simply because it was mine so I offered
him some. He fell all over me, how nice a gesture that was etc etc so
I tried to lighten the mood by saying...that will cost you 1.99. He
laughed even...then said he wasnt paying for it, so continuing to
smile and be lighthearted i told him that ok, he could let me borrow
his lawn mower when I move so I would have a way to cut the grass. He
got very serious then and said he didnt want to get into loaning
things to me so I shut up.)

So today, he said he thought it over all day and was now very angry
and offended that I had the odacity to ask to borrow his lawn mower
after trying to charge him for a plate of spagetti. He truely was
upset over this! I told him I was kidding! about the food and the
mower...please it was nothing but light hearted banter. He then told
me that he didnt deserve to be kidded with like that and it was very
disrespectful of me for doing that!
Here is what really disturbs me... he stated over and over for at
least 5 mins "I couldnt believe you would have the odacity to ask to
borrow my mower after trying to charge me for food!"
He took something so absurd and miniscule and has turned it into huge
offense on my part.
Never in my life have i been witness to something so bizarre like
this.

I will say a prayer for your situation as well as my own this
night...may we both find some peace from all of this.
If I can ever give an ear or a shoulder, please dont hesitate to
email or msg me on the yahoo chat thingy.

Thanks again
Jen

I wanted to thank you Pamela, for your encouraging words and info. on
the books you mentioned. I havent read either one but plan to this
weekend. I"m also sorry to hear about your struggles as well. Its
hard for me to believe their are other men/people who behave like
this...I felt really alone with it.

I may have found a house to rent, will find out Friday if I got it.
Im doing all my looking/planning at work and using my office phone
number so that he wont be privy to my business.

Today I got a lecture from him on how disresptful I was to him the
other day when I kidded around with him about charging 1.99 for a
plate of spagetti. (It was his idea for us to buy our own individual
food and I had made spagetti for my daughter and I and thought it was
absurd that he not eat any simply because it was mine so I offered
him some. He fell all over me, how nice a gesture that was etc etc so
I tried to lighten the mood by saying...that will cost you 1.99. He
laughed even...then said he wasnt paying for it, so continuing to
smile and be lighthearted i told him that ok, he could let me borrow
his lawn mower when I move so I would have a way to cut the grass. He
got very serious then and said he didnt want to get into loaning
things to me so I shut up.)

So today, he said he thought it over all day and was now very angry
and offended that I had the odacity to ask to borrow his lawn mower
after trying to charge him for a plate of spagetti. He truely was
upset over this! I told him I was kidding! about the food and the
mower...please it was nothing but light hearted banter. He then told
me that he didnt deserve to be kidded with like that and it was very
disrespectful of me for doing that!
Here is what really disturbs me... he stated over and over for at
least 5 mins "I couldnt believe you would have the odacity to ask to
borrow my mower after trying to charge me for food!"
He took something so absurd and miniscule and has turned it into huge
offense on my part.
Never in my life have i been witness to something so bizarre like
this.

I will say a prayer for your situation as well as my own this
night...may we both find some peace from all of this.
If I can ever give an ear or a shoulder, please dont hesitate to
email or msg me on the yahoo chat thingy.

Thanks again
Jen

Hi, I am new here. Im in the process of leaving what I believe is a
relationship with a narcissist. Someone at my work told me they
thought my fiance fit the bill for being a narcissist so I have been
reading and learning...and they may be right. I'm very confused,
hurt, and trying to stay focused and sane while I make the move away
from this toxic relationship. I really have no one to talk to, (as he
over the last couple of years he made it a point to isolate me from
friends/family) and to try to talk to those people in our lives (he
permitted to remain) is useless since they have only known the sweet,
charming, and wonderful side he chooses to show them.

Maybe I just need to tell someone, anyone...what I have went through
even though it be strangers on a forum board. He has me so confused
that maybe I just need an unbiased opinion from someone who has (been
there).

To make this short as possible...we met, he charmed his way into my
heart. He wanted to know everything about me, sadly I fear only to
use in his manipulation against me. Within a year, he wanted to marry
me and we became engaged. I could do no wrong in his eyes and he
thought my teenaged daughter was wonderful. He wanted to give us
things we didnt have (his words) out of his deep love for me. He
bought us furniture, jewelry etc. Then knowing what kind of house I
had always dreamt of having, he went out and bought it...country, a
acre, cozy little ranch. I was estatic! All my dreams coming true. A
wonderful upstanding, responsible loving man who loved me enough to
give me the world! I adored him and loved him deeply. My love was
unconditional. My daughter thought the world of him.

Within days of moving in together in the new house...things changed.
He issued rules of conduct for my daughter and I was lectured about
how lenient I was with her and how I would be failing her as a mother
if she didnt have strict rules/guidelines to follow. He was so
intelligent, so well spoken and so well versed in his opinions and I
knowing because of the divorce from her father I HAD been somewhat
lenient...I agreed with him. Within a month, he issued rules for my
behavior...how he should be spoken too, how he wanted the house kept,
how I should dress, etc etc etc. This started 3 months of fights,
talks, and lectures about what he expected from a wife, how he
expected his home to be run. This was when he began the threats.."If
you dont think you can be the kind of wife I need, want and
deserve..then maybe you would be happier elsewhere"

I wanted so much to make this work for me and my daughter. I didnt
want another failed relationship so I promised to try harder to make
him happy. He used words to make it appear as if I was the one with
the problem, I was contaminated by my past, my job, my friends and he
thought it best for *us* if I discontinued contact with people he
thought were a bad influence on me.

So for the next 2 years, as I would reach one level of satisfaction
for him...he would suddenly need *to have a talk with me* I would
then find out (the new things about me that were harming our
relationship) and his bar of perfection would be raised and the
threat (to leave) would be issued. At this time he told me as long as
I remained as I was (disrespectful to him, warring with him) he would
not marry me but if I conceded to his wishes, I might get the honor
of marriage. Also, because my daughter was now seeing this other side
of him in his treatment to her...and she is a teen..she started
rebelling somewhat. She is a wonderful kid, good grades, polite,
helpful and loving and she made the mistake of telling him that he
didnt have to be so strict and mean to her, and I backed her up
telling him that being grounded for 3 weeks for forgetting to turn
off one light and her computer monitor was extreme.

Well, the was the beginning of the end. In his mind, we co-conspired
to disrespect and defy his authority. He never thought she would ever
turn out to be *that kind of kid* (whatever that meant). Maybe he
wasnt ready to step father. I was a failure as a mom because I let
her say what was on her mind. I had never supported him in his
discipline of her. He even lied and told me that he had talked
previously with my family and they told him that I was a bad mother
and knew he would have *problems* with me and my daughter. I got the
lecture on how much he had done for me, for us, and how ungrateful I
was. He thought it best I move out and go raise my daughter as I saw
fit.

The threat of this and the constant dangling of the marriage carrot
was enough for me and I agreed that I should go. Then he told me that
really, I could stay BUT..I had to agree on the following...and I
quote..."You will recognize that I am the head of the house and you
will respect and follow my rules for you and your daughter, you will
support me fully in the decisions i make for your daughter and we
will raise her the way I feel is right for her. You will no longer
question my decisions or actions, you will obey me as a wife should
and your daughter will be taught that she must be polite, respectful,
and obedient. If you can do this, we will have a nice life together,
if not...then you should go."

I decided to go because I will never be able to live up to the
standards of his perfection and neither will my daughter. She is a
teen and if he cant handle a very minor issue such as what he
percieves as a teens mouthiness, he would totally flip should she
ever really make a mistake. And...Im not a robot.

So now we are looking for a place to live and yes he is trying to
control that as well, where I should go, how much to pay etc. But he
never lets me forget that this is all my fault, because i couldnt see
just how wonderful and deserving he truely is and how he never
deserved a disobedient wife and disrespect from my daughter.
Im sorry this is so long...I really needed to get this off my chest.
Thanks for listening.
Jen

I chose the name mastersgrief because he wanted to be the Master of
his home and I was never anything more than grief to him.

Hi, I am new here. Im in the process of leaving what I believe is a
relationship with a narcissist. Someone at my work told me they
thought my fiance fit the bill for being a narcissist so I have been
reading and learning...and they may be right. I'm very confused,
hurt, and trying to stay focused and sane while I make the move away
from this toxic relationship. I really have no one to talk to, (as he
over the last couple of years he made it a point to isolate me from
friends/family) and to try to talk to those people in our lives (he
permitted to remain) is useless since they have only known the sweet,
charming, and wonderful side he chooses to show them.

Maybe I just need to tell someone, anyone...what I have went through
even though it be strangers on a forum board. He has me so confused
that maybe I just need an unbiased opinion from someone who has (been
there).

To make this short as possible...we met, he charmed his way into my
heart. He wanted to know everything about me, sadly I fear only to
use in his manipulation against me. Within a year, he wanted to marry
me and we became engaged. I could do no wrong in his eyes and he
thought my teenaged daughter was wonderful. He wanted to give us
things we didnt have (his words) out of his deep love for me. He
bought us furniture, jewelry etc. Then knowing what kind of house I
had always dreamt of having, he went out and bought it...country, a
acre, cozy little ranch. I was estatic! All my dreams coming true. A
wonderful upstanding, responsible loving man who loved me enough to
give me the world! I adored him and loved him deeply. My love was
unconditional. My daughter thought the world of him.

Within days of moving in together in the new house...things changed.
He issued rules of conduct for my daughter and I was lectured about
how lenient I was with her and how I would be failing her as a mother
if she didnt have strict rules/guidelines to follow. He was so
intelligent, so well spoken and so well versed in his opinions and I
knowing because of the divorce from her father I HAD been somewhat
lenient...I agreed with him. Within a month, he issued rules for my
behavior...how he should be spoken too, how he wanted the house kept,
how I should dress, etc etc etc. This started 3 months of fights,
talks, and lectures about what he expected from a wife, how he
expected his home to be run. This was when he began the threats.."If
you dont think you can be the kind of wife I need, want and
deserve..then maybe you would be happier elsewhere"

I wanted so much to make this work for me and my daughter. I didnt
want another failed relationship so I promised to try harder to make
him happy. He used words to make it appear as if I was the one with
the problem, I was contaminated by my past, my job, my friends and he
thought it best for *us* if I discontinued contact with people he
thought were a bad influence on me.

So for the next 2 years, as I would reach one level of satisfaction
for him...he would suddenly need *to have a talk with me* I would
then find out (the new things about me that were harming our
relationship) and his bar of perfection would be raised and the
threat (to leave) would be issued. At this time he told me as long as
I remained as I was (disrespectful to him, warring with him) he would
not marry me but if I conceded to his wishes, I might get the honor
of marriage. Also, because my daughter was now seeing this other side
of him in his treatment to her...and she is a teen..she started
rebelling somewhat. She is a wonderful kid, good grades, polite,
helpful and loving and she made the mistake of telling him that he
didnt have to be so strict and mean to her, and I backed her up
telling him that being grounded for 3 weeks for forgetting to turn
off one light and her computer monitor was extreme.

Well, the was the beginning of the end. In his mind, we co-conspired
to disrespect and defy his authority. He never thought she would ever
turn out to be *that kind of kid* (whatever that meant). Maybe he
wasnt ready to step father. I was a failure as a mom because I let
her say what was on her mind. I had never supported him in his
discipline of her. He even lied and told me that he had talked
previously with my family and they told him that I was a bad mother
and knew he would have *problems* with me and my daughter. I got the
lecture on how much he had done for me, for us, and how ungrateful I
was. He thought it best I move out and go raise my daughter as I saw
fit.

The threat of this and the constant dangling of the marriage carrot
was enough for me and I agreed that I should go. Then he told me that
really, I could stay BUT..I had to agree on the following...and I
quote..."You will recognize that I am the head of the house and you
will respect and follow my rules for you and your daughter, you will
support me fully in the decisions i make for your daughter and we
will raise her the way I feel is right for her. You will no longer
question my decisions or actions, you will obey me as a wife should
and your daughter will be taught that she must be polite, respectful,
and obedient. If you can do this, we will have a nice life together,
if not...then you should go."

I decided to go because I will never be able to live up to the
standards of his perfection and neither will my daughter. She is a
teen and if he cant handle a very minor issue such as what he
percieves as a teens mouthiness, he would totally flip should she
ever really make a mistake. And...Im not a robot.

So now we are looking for a place to live and yes he is trying to
control that as well, where I should go, how much to pay etc. But he
never lets me forget that this is all my fault, because i couldnt see
just how wonderful and deserving he truely is and how he never
deserved a disobedient wife and disrespect from my daughter.
Im sorry this is so long...I really needed to get this off my chest.
Thanks for listening.
Jen

I chose the name mastersgrief because he wanted to be the Master of
his home and I was never anything more than grief to him.

--- In Psychopathsgroup@yahoogroups.com, lorir5300 <no_reply@y...>
wrote:
> Any advice on how to get a divorce from NPD?

Hi Lori. I would like to suggest that you visit our NPD forum:
http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/general.msnw

we have 4 pages of divorce/custody Links:
http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/divorcecustodyl
inks.msnw

(that's the first page)

This site is only used as a satellite for our MSN groups and you
will find our MSN NPD site board to be more active.

Hope this helps.

Any advice on how to get a divorce from NPD?

Hi not soon yet and welcome. You may wish to join our Narcissistic
Personality Disorder forum here:
http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/home1.msnw


--- In Psychopathsgroup@yahoogroups.com, "soon_not_yet"
<soon_not_yet@y...> wrote:
> Hello, this may sound pretty vague but I would appreciate any
contact
> with people who are in relationships with narcissistic females. I
> find life to be coming increasingly unbearable and feel unable to
> cope with the behaviour traits of a narcissist.
>
> If there is anyone who can listen, offer advice etc then I would
> dearly love to make contact.
>
> Many thanx

Chat-time tip: Try meeting on the 'top' of the hour ie 9:00; 10:00
etc.

Hello, this may sound pretty vague but I would appreciate any contact
with people who are in relationships with narcissistic females. I
find life to be coming increasingly unbearable and feel unable to
cope with the behaviour traits of a narcissist.

If there is anyone who can listen, offer advice etc then I would
dearly love to make contact.

Many thanx

OUR 'OFFSITE' CHATROOM

For members of our Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Psychopath
family of forums.

Many of our members are unable to use MSN chatroom - If you have a
Mac computer, you may not be able to access MSN chat sites.

We have a Yahoo Group available which may help with that problem.
The link is below, but please first read this short message.

Situationally, we may activate our MSN chatroom - we will announce
any hosted chats.

Here's some simple Common-Sense rules. Follow the rules and enjoy
the chatsite - failure to follow the rules will result in being
banned not only from the Yahoo site, but our MSN sites and being
reported to both YAHOO and MSN security.

* * * * * *

CHATROOM RULES

CHATTERS WILL BE BANNED FOR:

1. Posting unrelated, off-topic, commercial products or websites

2. Verbal attacks, threats or insults.

3. Whispering to a member about another member's character is a no-
no (you aren't qualified to denigrate someone's character or create
a smear campaign about them. These are typical 'low-rent' tactics we
learn about our abusers doing, so don't do it). If you receive such
a whisper you may want to think about the whisperer's intentions,
and why you are being targeted as the recipient.

4. No solicitations for private emails - it's not a dating site

5. Be courteous of members who are 'lurking' they may need time to
find their voice about abuse and you're helping them do so. They
have a right to be there as much as you do. Their safety may be in
jeopardy if an abuser hears them typing. Harass them and you're
banned.

5. Negative comments about our forums, our managers, members or
other groups is another 'no no'.
If you aren't happy with our groups we recommend you leave.

6. Please note that a copy of a chat transcript may be made by right-
clicking on the text. If you encounter a problem, send a copy to me
femfree@... and the managers will take any necessary steps.

We think these rules are fair. If you do too, then proceed to our
chatrom.

Use at your own risk, there is no active manager present.

<eom>

"Be bold in what you stand for and careful what you fall for." Ruth
Boorstin

Verbal Abuse Red Flags
http://hometown.aol.com/azterri/abuser-victim-red-flag-warnings.html

Am I in an Abusive Relationship?
http://www.whatsgoodaboutanger.com/abusive.asp

How to Spot an Abuser on Your First Date, Author Sam Vaknin
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/9128/104161

15 Signs of an Abusive Relationship
http://www.creatingfutures.net/abusive.html
http://ohr.gsfc.nasa.gov/family/domestic/arerelation.htm

Spot the Internet Cyberpath & More Predators online
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/fighting/player.html

Signs of Emotional Abuse (A Quiz format)
http://abuse101.com/emotionalabuse.html

Lies abusers tell their victims
http://www.hhhh.org/maia/lies.html

Red Flags of Abusive Behaviour - Tactics
http://www.hopesplace.net/polyamory/redflags.html

Warning Signs of Abusive Relationships
http://www.recovery-man.com/abusive/abusive_signs.htm

Are You Emotionally Abused? Questions for Women to ask themselves
http://www.womanabuseprevention.com/html/emotional_abuse.html

Recognizing the Abusive Personality
http://abuse101.com/theabuser.html
http://hometown.aol.com/sue121/warning.html

Characteristics of an Abuser
http://abuse101.com/profile.html
http://abuse101.com/

Red Flags of Relationship Abuse
http://www.lifeskillsintl.org/page21.html

Understanding the Dynamics of Abusive Relationships
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p960926.html

Red Flags of Abusive Behavior
http://geocities.com/Wellesley/commons/1654/behaviors.html

Abusive Relationship Red Flags
http://www.soulselfhelp.on.ca/verbalabuse.html

Brain Washing & Mind Control Techniques
http://www.phinnweb.com/neuro/brainwash/

How to Recognize a Narcissist, Dr. Sam Vaknin
http://samvak.tripod.com/faq58.html

Recognizing the Abusive Personality by Nona Penia
http://abuse101.com/theabuser.html

85 personality disorder traits by J. Kent Griffeth, DSW
http://members.aol.com/dswgriff/chardisorder.html

Dangerous Relationships & How To Avoid Them
http://www.ccmagazine.org/edit/staff/vito37.htm

Recognizing Controlling Behaviour
http://www.drirene.com/control.htm



Warning Signs of Abusive Relationships
http://pages.ivillage.com/samuel10011/domesticviolence/id6.html

Dr. Vaknin's page on abuse
http://samvak.tripod.com/abuse.html

Dating - Warning Signs
http://www.break-the-cycle.org/warningsigns.htm

"The Loser"  Warning signs that you're dating a Loser, Joseph M.
Carver, Ph.D., Psychologist Dating Red Flags  (discover the P before
it's too late)
http://www.drjoecarver.com/loser.html

How young women can spot an abusive relationship
http://www.oag.state.ny.us/family/warningsigns.html

Tale of Joe Smooth - fun story and test to spot 'red flags'
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/joesmooth.shtml

Red Flags of an Emotional Manipulator:Written by Fiona McColl
http://www.heartless-
bitches.com/rants/manipulator/eighteasyways.shtml
http://heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/redflaglist.shtml

Red Flags of Emotional Abuse --..."but he said he loved me --- the
beginning"
http://www.geocities.com/andifekete/guide1.html

Verbal Abuse  (gives examples of verbal responses to verbal abuse)
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~bri/verbal.htm

Signs of Emotional Blackmail
http://www.couplescompany.com/Advice/Tina/EmBlackmail.htm

Relationship Warning Signs
http://www.dvirc.org.au/whenlove/checklist.htm

A Girl's Guide to Avoiding the Emotional Blackmailer
http://www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/black2.shtml

Tips to Spot the Abuser
http://www.passiveaggressive.homestead.com/RedFlags.html

Darla wrote:

 Thanks Sue. We are indeed fortunate to have you here. Do we have a
link to your site: I would enjoy adding it here. I know a couple of
<i>"Children of Ns"</i> forums that I belong to and quite regularly
mention them to our members. A member recently mentioned...

"It seems a little strange to me that I logged onto these boards in
response to a threat from my P ex only to find I am discovering more
about my childhood than anything else!!"

and one from our front page at the MSN P forum:

"I have both a therapist and psychiatrist, and both helped me see
how I gravitate toward men without consciences because I was raised
around them. In fact, I was willing to look the other way for this
guy precisely because I grew up looking the other way"

It's been surprising to me how many members have had NP parents and
others in their families while growing up. I did not have NP parents
so I find myself at a bit of a loss to know what to say.

In response to messages, we have some websites that may be of help:

Helping Children Understand
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/helpingchildrenunderstand.msnw
and Effect of Abusive Parents
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/effectsofabusiveparents.msnw

Of course the book Toxic Parents by Dr. Susan Forward, continues to
be a favourite mentioned.
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/effectsofabusiveparents.msnw

Also, Dr. Richard Grossman's site about Voicelessness continues to
be one of my personal favourites.

It is a bitter discovery to learn the extend of the abuse on our
lives and it's impact in our later relationship management and
awareness.

It's almost so overwhelming it shocks me sometimes.

I'm glad there are forums devoted to this aspect of abuse.

Take great care!
femfree
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

--- In Psychopathsgroup@yahoogroups.com, SD <sue.darnell@v...> wrote:
> Great post I'm new here. I'm new here. I'm 51 and pretty stable
now. My
> mother has NPD and I believe she has no conscience. I consequently
grew
> up (and my sister) in  complete and utter madness. She once
thought she
> hit a cat with her car and went back to help it. She wound up
sneaking
> around people's backyards that night in her night gown. I was a
child
> and thought this behavior was normal. My mother's other behaviors
range
> from Joan Crawford to stuff Leona Helmsley stuff and "beyond."
She take
> pride in hurting people , ripping them off, etc. Taught em
burglary when
> I was 11 years old. Taught me at age 6 to lie and keep secrets for
her.
> She is a convicted felon and I believe she is only behaving at all
to
> avoid prison. I do not have an official diagnosis for her, she
does not
> drink or use drugs. But she is the smartest person she knows and
claims
> to b e a victim that everyone abandoned her. She claims she has
given us
> gifts and we have used her. She has a little entourage of
supporters of
> course, but they  are dwindling. Some have died, others are getting
> smart. I'm sure she has lied to therapists.
> My situation now is that she is getting older and I worry about her
> because I have a conscience and empathy. She needs help but the
whole
> family moved thousands of miles a way from her for safety reasons.
Well,
> I am torn and believe I will never feel resolved because I believe
that
> I would like to help her but I do not know how to protect myself
while
> doing so. I cannot afford to quit work and go there. And she would
> sabotage any work I did while there, anyway. It is her pattern. She
> sweet talks people into her web and then abuses them, not unlike
like a
> spider. I cannot shake feelings of guilt and I continue to
correspond
> with her when I can. So the guilt trips are very fresh and blatant
and
> ever forthcoming. She has never been a grandmother to my 1 child
> although she did act nicely toward one of my children. She prefers
males
> above females and when He was 14, things got out of hand, as she
likes
> people to sleep in her bed. Innocently, watching old movies on TV
but it
> was  not healthy in my eyes.  My son seems ok and seems very
normal, is
> 27 and seems not to be harmed. She may have spared the
grandchildren the
> abuse the dished out to her own children. But I protected my second
> child better. She has a small fortune or claims to and threatens
to cut
> everyone out on a regular basis in her will. She uses her will
like a
> weapon and probably hs no will.
> Oh well, I have gone on too much. A lifelong pattern of abuse. Btw,
> there have been times that I did not speak with her for 10 years
at a
> time. I have forgiven her for abuses but have not forgotten. Right
> now... today, I take care of me and mine and do not associate with
her
> on a deep level, 1 minute at a time. I also believe I have DID
from it.
> In fact, I know I do. Any hoe for my guilt complex?
> I believe I will never be good enough to take care of my parent in
a way
> that most people can. I would if I could, but I cannot figure out
how
> to. I know we have enabled her in the past because we did not know
the
> pathology No one in the family would do that again. I don't think
> everybody can even have a bottom. Crises can also teach people to
cover
> up better or to be covert in their abuse. Some do not hit bottom I
> believe, and I have seen some die.
> I have been in supervised and group therapy for over 20 years. I
use
> online groups now. Mainly I belong to groups for Adult Children of
> Narcissists. More? I am a certified paraprofessional in Health and
Human
> Services, specializing in entry level, short term counseling
> (certificate from SDSU).
> -Sue D.
>
>
> Darla wrote:
>
> >  Dear Members. The following story has been given to our forums
to
> > help our members and readers.
> > Deprogramming
> > Ending the cult-like draw of the Psychopath
> > One family's story
> >
> > Rick Ross Review:
> >
> > This bulletin board has been extremely valuable to our family. We
> > nearly lost a daughter and probably would have if it were not for
> > Rick Ross of the Ross Institute. I hope the following review of
Rick
> > will be of use for others who frequent this board. I believe Rick
> > can not only help those who are currently involved in a
controlling
> > and destructive relationship but also those who have recently
left
> > one and are having difficulty with the separation.
> >
> > Rick makes it a point to explain that he is not a trained
clinician.
> > His web page is geared toward cults. He attacks cults and has
done
> > so on dozens of TV talk and news shows. He is SELF taught, soft
> > spoken, a good listener and backs up everything he states with
> > clinical documentation. He has performed about 500 hundred de-
> > programs, the bulk of which have been cultic in origin. He
believes
> > that controlling, abusive relationship are the same as one on one
> > cultic relationships. He also believes they are harder to break
due
> > to the time spent in a one on one relationship and there is a
> > romantic investment that may not be present in a cultic
> > deprogramming. When I asked him to give me an idea of his success
> > rate he stated that he had about a 75% success rate. He also
stated
> > in a one on one relationship that percentage was lower.
> >
> > Due to other professionals telling us that we could not save our
> > daughter until she wanted to be saved and that was not going to
be
> > until she hit as low as was humanly possible and that fact that
we
> > were extremely doubtful that a cultic deprogramming would do
> > anything but further remove us from our daughter we were
extremely
> > hesitant to hire Rick.  However after 18 months of her life and
ours
> > getting worse and worse and no hope in the future we were all
very
> > disparate. We called Rick and tried to understand the connection
> > between cultic and controlling abusive relationships. We checked
his
> > references and regardless of the outcome everyone had high praise
> > for Rick and the process. That still didn't do it. A couple of
> > months ago we deliberately passed up on an opportunity to bring
Rick
> > in. After that missed opportunity she ran away with her abuser to
> > Florida. She latter called us crying that she had been abandoned
had
> > no money and left with a hotel bill. This was a consistent
behavior
> > pattern. He constantly abused her and left her only so she would
> > have to beg him to take her back! We called Rick and he was
> > available for five days. We then called our daughter back and
stated
> > we would only rescue her if she agreed to be with us for a
couple of
> > days and get help. We flew down to Florida on Monday night. Rick
> > Flew down on Tuesday. I picked him up from the airport which was
> > about an hour away from where we were staying. This gave us ample
> > time for Rick to go over what he expected from us and for him to
get
> > a complete understanding of the situation.
> >
> > Both my wife and I were present during the entire four days. Our
job
> > was to be supportive to her and also reinforce a fact if she
refused
> > to see it when Rick brought it up. We started at 9AM and Rick
> > proceeded to discuss his background and then to get her to
describe
> > her relationship. She blamed most of what was happening to her as
> > just a bad relationship; their stars were not in alignment and
> > refused to understand that she was in a controlling abusive
> > relationship. He then started to describe other bad
relationships, a
> > lot of which have been publicized and many that have not. He is
> > extremely good at telling random stories of past experiences
which
> > he latter refers back to make a point. He carefully reviewed the
> > descriptions of controlling and abusive relationships and got
her to
> > agree to each characteristic that was present in her
relationship.
> > If there were twelve factors outlined in the documentation in
most
> > cases her abused fit 12 of them. This was repeated several times
> > documented by a different clinical paper each time. Rick then
> > referred back to the tragic cases where this type of relationship
> > had produced devastating results. Our daughter was particularly
> > touched by the Nusbaum case, as were we all.
> >
> > The bubble her abuser created and kept her in filled her with a
> > tremendous amount of distorted feelings and information which he
> > used against her, her friends and family. Rick spent the part of
the
> > afternoon educating her on this isolation technique and how it
had
> > impacted her thinking and feelings. He used dozens of examples
and
> > related them to the feelings she now had about us and how they
were
> > a distortion form the reality she had always known.  That was a
full
> > first day and we were all exhausted. She was still holding on to
him
> > but we saw some cracks in that foundation.
> >
> > On the second day he went after the relationship much stronger.
He
> > spent a good part of the morning reviewing the day before and
> > learning more about how she was treated. They discussed random
and
> > unbelievable charges he made against her. If she took to long in
a
> > store then she must be F##king the store manger because she was
in
> > there alone. This verbal abuse would continue for hours until she
> > struck out at him and at that point SHE was characterized as
being
> > psychotic. They covered many more sickening examples. He then
> > introduced her to all the current literature on brain washing and
> > very slowly went over each element used. They he demonstrated by
the
> > behavior that her abuser had demonstrated to her that she was a
> > victim of every technique. We could see that this hit her hard
and
> > her house of sand was crumbling. The session ended that day when
he
> > tried to explain to her that this was not love. She left the
session
> > crying and ran up to her room. She would come a couple of hours
> > latter and acted like the daughter we had always known, but we
did
> > not discuss anything further that night about her situation.
> >
> > On day three he spent the entire morning reviewing the previously
> > two days. He reinforced how her abuser's actions were in complete
> > alliance with current documentation on mind control techniques.
He
> > reviewed the Nusbaun, Smart, Simpson and other high profile
> > controlling relationship cases and related how their abusers had
> > controlled them by using these same techniques. He explained that
> > her abuser had never studied these techniques but had fallen into
> > the because of his personality type and used them to get his
way. He
> > related this to how he treats his mother. He is 22, doesn't hold
a
> > steady job, is an alcoholic, drug user, has been arrested over 50
> > times does not pay rent, his mother does his laundry buys him
things
> > and he abuses her constantly telling her she is a bitch and
needs to
> > get laid.
> > He then asked what type of person does these types to things.
Rick
> > then produced clinical descriptions of narcissists and went
through
> > point by point with my daughter his actions and how they fit this
> > disorder exactly. He demonstrated that this type of person is
> > incapable of real love. The love they believe they have and are
> > offering is distorted and sick. He showed where this type of
person
> > does not change; in fact they get much worse with age. He stated
> > where he had a history of violence he had thrown full coke cans
at
> > her head, shaving cans, even air conditioners that this was only
> > going to get worse and had a good probability of ending up like
one
> > of the cases he had reviewed. Again he reviewed the personality
> > disorder and informed her that his actions demonstrated that he
was
> > never going to change plus there was a high probability of a
tragic
> > outcome. He also stated that if the thought back he could predict
> > when her relationship with her abuser turned bad. He stated it
was
> > right after she told him she loved him. The look in her eyes was
> > devastating. The third day ended with Rick asking her to think
about
> > all they had talked about and to be ready to make some decisions
> > tomorrow. That night I took her to dinner. My wife was not
feeling
> > well. It had been a stressful day for all of us. My daughter
> > indicated that she was very upset. I asked her if she was upset
at
> > us and she stated no. I am upset a him.
> >
> > On day four he spent the morning reviewing what had been covered
> > the previous days. At the end of the morning he asked her if she
had
> > made a decision and she stated she wanted her life and family
back.
> > After lunch Rick tried to convince her how dangerous he was and
that
> > he would stop at nothing to try to trick her and get her back. He
> > made it clear that NO CONTACT was her only option. We all tried
to
> > get her to invest two to three weeks in a clinic he had
recommended
> > but were not successful. She did agree to take out a restraining
> > order and seek professional help in our home area.
> >
> > Rick was excellent in his approach, content and documentation. He
> > built a logical and documented case to my daughter in a
controlled
> > non-bias manner. We were lucky in that my daughter responded to
the
> > logic and reason. However I must state there is no one I am
aware of
> > that could have presented the information better than Rick. If
> > anyone is thinking on using Rick for a love one or for you own
> > particular situation and the person open enough to listen I
believe
> > he will be successful. He is not cheap! The four days ran us
$2800
> > and the travel time and travel and expenses ran another $2500.
Is he
> > worth it? To us, knowing what we know now we would have sold the
> > house and paid him 10 times that for what he did.
> >
> > Last Friday we were in out third day with Rick. We are now home.
Our
> > daughter obtained her own restraining order. Monday she starts
at a
> > clinic specializing in the aftermath of this kind of destructive
> > relationship. She is enrolled for two weeks of day classes and
will
> > need some additional help after it's over. She is also contacting
> > her college to re-enroll this fall. Will there still be tough
times,
> > yes; but my wife slept all night for the first time in a long
time.
> >
> > I talked with Rick at length about these types of situations and
the
> > lack of an organized approach for help. He stated her would
> > reorganize a separate website dedicated to controlling and
> > destructive relationships and perhaps produce a video tape that
> > could offer some approaches to help. I think Rick can be a
valuable
> > resource to everyone trapped in these relationships. I also
> > introduced him to this board. Rick may not have the answer but he
> > has the best approach I have found so far. The professionals we
> > consulted with were correct; before anyone can be helped they
must
> > WANT to be helped. Rick helps victims see that they need that
WANT.
> > He helps victims see that they need (WANT) to be helped, from
there
> > everything is possible.
> >
> > The following are links to Rick Ross' websites:
> > Brainwashing/Cults/Manipulation
> >
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
> > The Cultic Relationship
> >
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html
> >
> > I would like to extend my appreciation to the members who
> > contributed this story. Your words will help many. We cannot
think
> > of enough words to express our gratitude.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     -------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >    * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychopathsgroup/
> >
> >    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >      Psychopathsgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >      Service.
> >
> --
> -Sue Darnell
> (mexican_gifts)
> http://www.stores.ebay.com/mexicansilverandstuff

Thanks Sue. We are indeed fortunate to have you here. Do we have a
link to your site: I would enjoy adding it here. I know a couple of
<i>"Children of Ns"</i> forums that I belong to and quite regularly
mention them to our members. A member recently mentioned...

"It seems a little strange to me that I logged onto these boards in
response to a threat from my P ex only to find I am discovering more
about my childhood than anything else!!"

and one from our front page at the MSN P forum:

"I have both a therapist and psychiatrist, and both helped me see
how I gravitate toward men without consciences because I was raised
around them. In fact, I was willing to look the other way for this
guy precisely because I grew up looking the other way"

It's been surprising to me how many members have had NP parents and
others in their families while growing up. I did not have NP parents
so I find myself at a bit of a loss to know what to say.

In response to messages, we have some websites that may be of help:

Helping Children Understand
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/helpingchildrenunderstand.msnw
and Effect of Abusive Parents
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/effectsofabusiveparents.msnw

Of course the book Toxic Parents by Dr. Susan Forward, continues to
be a favourite mentioned.
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/effectsofabusiveparents.msnw

Also, Dr. Richard Grossman's site about Voicelessness continues to
be one of my personal favourites.

It is a bitter discovery to learn the extend of the abuse on our
lives and it's impact in our later relationship management and
awareness.

It's almost so overwhelming it shocks me sometimes.

I'm glad there are forums devoted to this aspect of abuse.

Take great care!
femfree













--- In Psychopathsgroup@yahoogroups.com, SD <sue.darnell@v...> wrote:
> Great post I'm new here. I'm new here. I'm 51 and pretty stable
now. My
> mother has NPD and I believe she has no conscience. I consequently
grew
> up (and my sister) in  complete and utter madness. She once
thought she
> hit a cat with her car and went back to help it. She wound up
sneaking
> around people's backyards that night in her night gown. I was a
child
> and thought this behavior was normal. My mother's other behaviors
range
> from Joan Crawford to stuff Leona Helmsley stuff and "beyond."
She take
> pride in hurting people , ripping them off, etc. Taught em
burglary when
> I was 11 years old. Taught me at age 6 to lie and keep secrets for
her.
> She is a convicted felon and I believe she is only behaving at all
to
> avoid prison. I do not have an official diagnosis for her, she
does not
> drink or use drugs. But she is the smartest person she knows and
claims
> to b e a victim that everyone abandoned her. She claims she has
given us
> gifts and we have used her. She has a little entourage of
supporters of
> course, but they  are dwindling. Some have died, others are getting
> smart. I'm sure she has lied to therapists.
> My situation now is that she is getting older and I worry about her
> because I have a conscience and empathy. She needs help but the
whole
> family moved thousands of miles a way from her for safety reasons.
Well,
> I am torn and believe I will never feel resolved because I believe
that
> I would like to help her but I do not know how to protect myself
while
> doing so. I cannot afford to quit work and go there. And she would
> sabotage any work I did while there, anyway. It is her pattern. She
> sweet talks people into her web and then abuses them, not unlike
like a
> spider. I cannot shake feelings of guilt and I continue to
correspond
> with her when I can. So the guilt trips are very fresh and blatant
and
> ever forthcoming. She has never been a grandmother to my 1 child
> although she did act nicely toward one of my children. She prefers
males
> above females and when He was 14, things got out of hand, as she
likes
> people to sleep in her bed. Innocently, watching old movies on TV
but it
> was  not healthy in my eyes.  My son seems ok and seems very
normal, is
> 27 and seems not to be harmed. She may have spared the
grandchildren the
> abuse the dished out to her own children. But I protected my second
> child better. She has a small fortune or claims to and threatens
to cut
> everyone out on a regular basis in her will. She uses her will
like a
> weapon and probably hs no will.
> Oh well, I have gone on too much. A lifelong pattern of abuse. Btw,
> there have been times that I did not speak with her for 10 years
at a
> time. I have forgiven her for abuses but have not forgotten. Right
> now... today, I take care of me and mine and do not associate with
her
> on a deep level, 1 minute at a time. I also believe I have DID
from it.
> In fact, I know I do. Any hoe for my guilt complex?
> I believe I will never be good enough to take care of my parent in
a way
> that most people can. I would if I could, but I cannot figure out
how
> to. I know we have enabled her in the past because we did not know
the
> pathology No one in the family would do that again. I don't think
> everybody can even have a bottom. Crises can also teach people to
cover
> up better or to be covert in their abuse. Some do not hit bottom I
> believe, and I have seen some die.
> I have been in supervised and group therapy for over 20 years. I
use
> online groups now. Mainly I belong to groups for Adult Children of
> Narcissists. More? I am a certified paraprofessional in Health and
Human
> Services, specializing in entry level, short term counseling
> (certificate from SDSU).
> -Sue D.
>
>
> Darla wrote:
>
> >  Dear Members. The following story has been given to our forums
to
> > help our members and readers.
> > Deprogramming
> > Ending the cult-like draw of the Psychopath
> > One family's story
> >
> > Rick Ross Review:
> >
> > This bulletin board has been extremely valuable to our family. We
> > nearly lost a daughter and probably would have if it were not for
> > Rick Ross of the Ross Institute. I hope the following review of
Rick
> > will be of use for others who frequent this board. I believe Rick
> > can not only help those who are currently involved in a
controlling
> > and destructive relationship but also those who have recently
left
> > one and are having difficulty with the separation.
> >
> > Rick makes it a point to explain that he is not a trained
clinician.
> > His web page is geared toward cults. He attacks cults and has
done
> > so on dozens of TV talk and news shows. He is SELF taught, soft
> > spoken, a good listener and backs up everything he states with
> > clinical documentation. He has performed about 500 hundred de-
> > programs, the bulk of which have been cultic in origin. He
believes
> > that controlling, abusive relationship are the same as one on one
> > cultic relationships. He also believes they are harder to break
due
> > to the time spent in a one on one relationship and there is a
> > romantic investment that may not be present in a cultic
> > deprogramming. When I asked him to give me an idea of his success
> > rate he stated that he had about a 75% success rate. He also
stated
> > in a one on one relationship that percentage was lower.
> >
> > Due to other professionals telling us that we could not save our
> > daughter until she wanted to be saved and that was not going to
be
> > until she hit as low as was humanly possible and that fact that
we
> > were extremely doubtful that a cultic deprogramming would do
> > anything but further remove us from our daughter we were
extremely
> > hesitant to hire Rick.  However after 18 months of her life and
ours
> > getting worse and worse and no hope in the future we were all
very
> > disparate. We called Rick and tried to understand the connection
> > between cultic and controlling abusive relationships. We checked
his
> > references and regardless of the outcome everyone had high praise
> > for Rick and the process. That still didn't do it. A couple of
> > months ago we deliberately passed up on an opportunity to bring
Rick
> > in. After that missed opportunity she ran away with her abuser to
> > Florida. She latter called us crying that she had been abandoned
had
> > no money and left with a hotel bill. This was a consistent
behavior
> > pattern. He constantly abused her and left her only so she would
> > have to beg him to take her back! We called Rick and he was
> > available for five days. We then called our daughter back and
stated
> > we would only rescue her if she agreed to be with us for a
couple of
> > days and get help. We flew down to Florida on Monday night. Rick
> > Flew down on Tuesday. I picked him up from the airport which was
> > about an hour away from where we were staying. This gave us ample
> > time for Rick to go over what he expected from us and for him to
get
> > a complete understanding of the situation.
> >
> > Both my wife and I were present during the entire four days. Our
job
> > was to be supportive to her and also reinforce a fact if she
refused
> > to see it when Rick brought it up. We started at 9AM and Rick
> > proceeded to discuss his background and then to get her to
describe
> > her relationship. She blamed most of what was happening to her as
> > just a bad relationship; their stars were not in alignment and
> > refused to understand that she was in a controlling abusive
> > relationship. He then started to describe other bad
relationships, a
> > lot of which have been publicized and many that have not. He is
> > extremely good at telling random stories of past experiences
which
> > he latter refers back to make a point. He carefully reviewed the
> > descriptions of controlling and abusive relationships and got
her to
> > agree to each characteristic that was present in her
relationship.
> > If there were twelve factors outlined in the documentation in
most
> > cases her abused fit 12 of them. This was repeated several times
> > documented by a different clinical paper each time. Rick then
> > referred back to the tragic cases where this type of relationship
> > had produced devastating results. Our daughter was particularly
> > touched by the Nusbaum case, as were we all.
> >
> > The bubble her abuser created and kept her in filled her with a
> > tremendous amount of distorted feelings and information which he
> > used against her, her friends and family. Rick spent the part of
the
> > afternoon educating her on this isolation technique and how it
had
> > impacted her thinking and feelings. He used dozens of examples
and
> > related them to the feelings she now had about us and how they
were
> > a distortion form the reality she had always known.  That was a
full
> > first day and we were all exhausted. She was still holding on to
him
> > but we saw some cracks in that foundation.
> >
> > On the second day he went after the relationship much stronger.
He
> > spent a good part of the morning reviewing the day before and
> > learning more about how she was treated. They discussed random
and
> > unbelievable charges he made against her. If she took to long in
a
> > store then she must be F##king the store manger because she was
in
> > there alone. This verbal abuse would continue for hours until she
> > struck out at him and at that point SHE was characterized as
being
> > psychotic. They covered many more sickening examples. He then
> > introduced her to all the current literature on brain washing and
> > very slowly went over each element used. They he demonstrated by
the
> > behavior that her abuser had demonstrated to her that she was a
> > victim of every technique. We could see that this hit her hard
and
> > her house of sand was crumbling. The session ended that day when
he
> > tried to explain to her that this was not love. She left the
session
> > crying and ran up to her room. She would come a couple of hours
> > latter and acted like the daughter we had always known, but we
did
> > not discuss anything further that night about her situation.
> >
> > On day three he spent the entire morning reviewing the previously
> > two days. He reinforced how her abuser's actions were in complete
> > alliance with current documentation on mind control techniques.
He
> > reviewed the Nusbaun, Smart, Simpson and other high profile
> > controlling relationship cases and related how their abusers had
> > controlled them by using these same techniques. He explained that
> > her abuser had never studied these techniques but had fallen into
> > the because of his personality type and used them to get his
way. He
> > related this to how he treats his mother. He is 22, doesn't hold
a
> > steady job, is an alcoholic, drug user, has been arrested over 50
> > times does not pay rent, his mother does his laundry buys him
things
> > and he abuses her constantly telling her she is a bitch and
needs to
> > get laid.
> > He then asked what type of person does these types to things.
Rick
> > then produced clinical descriptions of narcissists and went
through
> > point by point with my daughter his actions and how they fit this
> > disorder exactly. He demonstrated that this type of person is
> > incapable of real love. The love they believe they have and are
> > offering is distorted and sick. He showed where this type of
person
> > does not change; in fact they get much worse with age. He stated
> > where he had a history of violence he had thrown full coke cans
at
> > her head, shaving cans, even air conditioners that this was only
> > going to get worse and had a good probability of ending up like
one
> > of the cases he had reviewed. Again he reviewed the personality
> > disorder and informed her that his actions demonstrated that he
was
> > never going to change plus there was a high probability of a
tragic
> > outcome. He also stated that if the thought back he could predict
> > when her relationship with her abuser turned bad. He stated it
was
> > right after she told him she loved him. The look in her eyes was
> > devastating. The third day ended with Rick asking her to think
about
> > all they had talked about and to be ready to make some decisions
> > tomorrow. That night I took her to dinner. My wife was not
feeling
> > well. It had been a stressful day for all of us. My daughter
> > indicated that she was very upset. I asked her if she was upset
at
> > us and she stated no. I am upset a him.
> >
> > On day four he spent the morning reviewing what had been covered
> > the previous days. At the end of the morning he asked her if she
had
> > made a decision and she stated she wanted her life and family
back.
> > After lunch Rick tried to convince her how dangerous he was and
that
> > he would stop at nothing to try to trick her and get her back. He
> > made it clear that NO CONTACT was her only option. We all tried
to
> > get her to invest two to three weeks in a clinic he had
recommended
> > but were not successful. She did agree to take out a restraining
> > order and seek professional help in our home area.
> >
> > Rick was excellent in his approach, content and documentation. He
> > built a logical and documented case to my daughter in a
controlled
> > non-bias manner. We were lucky in that my daughter responded to
the
> > logic and reason. However I must state there is no one I am
aware of
> > that could have presented the information better than Rick. If
> > anyone is thinking on using Rick for a love one or for you own
> > particular situation and the person open enough to listen I
believe
> > he will be successful. He is not cheap! The four days ran us
$2800
> > and the travel time and travel and expenses ran another $2500.
Is he
> > worth it? To us, knowing what we know now we would have sold the
> > house and paid him 10 times that for what he did.
> >
> > Last Friday we were in out third day with Rick. We are now home.
Our
> > daughter obtained her own restraining order. Monday she starts
at a
> > clinic specializing in the aftermath of this kind of destructive
> > relationship. She is enrolled for two weeks of day classes and
will
> > need some additional help after it's over. She is also contacting
> > her college to re-enroll this fall. Will there still be tough
times,
> > yes; but my wife slept all night for the first time in a long
time.
> >
> > I talked with Rick at length about these types of situations and
the
> > lack of an organized approach for help. He stated her would
> > reorganize a separate website dedicated to controlling and
> > destructive relationships and perhaps produce a video tape that
> > could offer some approaches to help. I think Rick can be a
valuable
> > resource to everyone trapped in these relationships. I also
> > introduced him to this board. Rick may not have the answer but he
> > has the best approach I have found so far. The professionals we
> > consulted with were correct; before anyone can be helped they
must
> > WANT to be helped. Rick helps victims see that they need that
WANT.
> > He helps victims see that they need (WANT) to be helped, from
there
> > everything is possible.
> >
> > The following are links to Rick Ross' websites:
> > Brainwashing/Cults/Manipulation
> >
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
> > The Cultic Relationship
> >
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html
> >
> > I would like to extend my appreciation to the members who
> > contributed this story. Your words will help many. We cannot
think
> > of enough words to express our gratitude.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     -------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >    * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychopathsgroup/
> >
> >    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >      Psychopathsgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >      Service.
> >
> --
> -Sue Darnell
> (mexican_gifts)
> http://www.stores.ebay.com/mexicansilverandstuff

Darla wrote:

 Dear Members. The following story has been given to our forums to
help our members and readers.
Deprogramming
Ending the cult-like draw of the Psychopath
One family's story

Rick Ross Review:

This bulletin board has been extremely valuable to our family. We
nearly lost a daughter and probably would have if it were not for
Rick Ross of the Ross Institute. I hope the following review of Rick
will be of use for others who frequent this board. I believe Rick
can not only help those who are currently involved in a controlling
and destructive relationship but also those who have recently left
one and are having difficulty with the separation.

Rick makes it a point to explain that he is not a trained clinician.
His web page is geared toward cults. He attacks cults and has done
so on dozens of TV talk and news shows. He is SELF taught, soft
spoken, a good listener and backs up everything he states with
clinical documentation. He has performed about 500 hundred de-
programs, the bulk of which have been cultic in origin. He believes
that controlling, abusive relationship are the same as one on one
cultic relationships. He also believes they are harder to break due
to the time spent in a one on one relationship and there is a
romantic investment that may not be present in a cultic
deprogramming. When I asked him to give me an idea of his success
rate he stated that he had about a 75% success rate. He also stated
in a one on one relationship that percentage was lower.

Due to other professionals telling us that we could not save our
daughter until she wanted to be saved and that was not going to be
until she hit as low as was humanly possible and that fact that we
were extremely doubtful that a cultic deprogramming would do
anything but further remove us from our daughter we were extremely
hesitant to hire Rick.  However after 18 months of her life and ours
getting worse and worse and no hope in the future we were all very
disparate. We called Rick and tried to understand the connection
between cultic and controlling abusive relationships. We checked his
references and regardless of the outcome everyone had high praise
for Rick and the process. That still didn't do it. A couple of
months ago we deliberately passed up on an opportunity to bring Rick
in. After that missed opportunity she ran away with her abuser to
Florida. She latter called us crying that she had been abandoned had
no money and left with a hotel bill. This was a consistent behavior
pattern. He constantly abused her and left her only so she would
have to beg him to take her back! We called Rick and he was
available for five days. We then called our daughter back and stated
we would only rescue her if she agreed to be with us for a couple of
days and get help. We flew down to Florida on Monday night. Rick
Flew down on Tuesday. I picked him up from the airport which was
about an hour away from where we were staying. This gave us ample
time for Rick to go over what he expected from us and for him to get
a complete understanding of the situation.

Both my wife and I were present during the entire four days. Our job
was to be supportive to her and also reinforce a fact if she refused
to see it when Rick brought it up. We started at 9AM and Rick
proceeded to discuss his background and then to get her to describe
her relationship. She blamed most of what was happening to her as
just a bad relationship; their stars were not in alignment and
refused to understand that she was in a controlling abusive
relationship. He then started to describe other bad relationships, a
lot of which have been publicized and many that have not. He is
extremely good at telling random stories of past experiences which
he latter refers back to make a point. He carefully reviewed the
descriptions of controlling and abusive relationships and got her to
agree to each characteristic that was present in her relationship.
If there were twelve factors outlined in the documentation in most
cases her abused fit 12 of them. This was repeated several times
documented by a different clinical paper each time. Rick then
referred back to the tragic cases where this type of relationship
had produced devastating results. Our daughter was particularly
touched by the Nusbaum case, as were we all.

The bubble her abuser created and kept her in filled her with a
tremendous amount of distorted feelings and information which he
used against her, her friends and family. Rick spent the part of the
afternoon educating her on this isolation technique and how it had
impacted her thinking and feelings. He used dozens of examples and
related them to the feelings she now had about us and how they were
a distortion form the reality she had always known.  That was a full
first day and we were all exhausted. She was still holding on to him
but we saw some cracks in that foundation.

On the second day he went after the relationship much stronger. He
spent a good part of the morning reviewing the day before and
learning more about how she was treated. They discussed random and
unbelievable charges he made against her. If she took to long in a
store then she must be F##king the store manger because she was in
there alone. This verbal abuse would continue for hours until she
struck out at him and at that point SHE was characterized as being
psychotic. They covered many more sickening examples. He then
introduced her to all the current literature on brain washing and
very slowly went over each element used. They he demonstrated by the
behavior that her abuser had demonstrated to her that she was a
victim of every technique. We could see that this hit her hard and
her house of sand was crumbling. The session ended that day when he
tried to explain to her that this was not love. She left the session
crying and ran up to her room. She would come a couple of hours
latter and acted like the daughter we had always known, but we did
not discuss anything further that night about her situation.

On day three he spent the entire morning reviewing the previously
two days. He reinforced how her abuser's actions were in complete
alliance with current documentation on mind control techniques. He
reviewed the Nusbaun, Smart, Simpson and other high profile
controlling relationship cases and related how their abusers had
controlled them by using these same techniques. He explained that
her abuser had never studied these techniques but had fallen into
the because of his personality type and used them to get his way. He
related this to how he treats his mother. He is 22, doesn't hold a
steady job, is an alcoholic, drug user, has been arrested over 50
times does not pay rent, his mother does his laundry buys him things
and he abuses her constantly telling her she is a bitch and needs to
get laid.
He then asked what type of person does these types to things. Rick
then produced clinical descriptions of narcissists and went through
point by point with my daughter his actions and how they fit this
disorder exactly. He demonstrated that this type of person is
incapable of real love. The love they believe they have and are
offering is distorted and sick. He showed where this type of person
does not change; in fact they get much worse with age. He stated
where he had a history of violence he had thrown full coke cans at
her head, shaving cans, even air conditioners that this was only
going to get worse and had a good probability of ending up like one
of the cases he had reviewed. Again he reviewed the personality
disorder and informed her that his actions demonstrated that he was
never going to change plus there was a high probability of a tragic
outcome. He also stated that if the thought back he could predict
when her relationship with her abuser turned bad. He stated it was
right after she told him she loved him. The look in her eyes was
devastating. The third day ended with Rick asking her to think about
all they had talked about and to be ready to make some decisions
tomorrow. That night I took her to dinner. My wife was not feeling
well. It had been a stressful day for all of us. My daughter
indicated that she was very upset. I asked her if she was upset at
us and she stated no. I am upset a him.

On day four he spent the morning reviewing what had been covered
the previous days. At the end of the morning he asked her if she had
made a decision and she stated she wanted her life and family back.
After lunch Rick tried to convince her how dangerous he was and that
he would stop at nothing to try to trick her and get her back. He
made it clear that NO CONTACT was her only option. We all tried to
get her to invest two to three weeks in a clinic he had recommended
but were not successful. She did agree to take out a restraining
order and seek professional help in our home area.

Rick was excellent in his approach, content and documentation. He
built a logical and documented case to my daughter in a controlled
non-bias manner. We were lucky in that my daughter responded to the
logic and reason. However I must state there is no one I am aware of
that could have presented the information better than Rick. If
anyone is thinking on using Rick for a love one or for you own
particular situation and the person open enough to listen I believe
he will be successful. He is not cheap! The four days ran us $2800
and the travel time and travel and expenses ran another $2500. Is he
worth it? To us, knowing what we know now we would have sold the
house and paid him 10 times that for what he did.

Last Friday we were in out third day with Rick. We are now home. Our
daughter obtained her own restraining order. Monday she starts at a
clinic specializing in the aftermath of this kind of destructive
relationship. She is enrolled for two weeks of day classes and will
need some additional help after it's over. She is also contacting
her college to re-enroll this fall. Will there still be tough times,
yes; but my wife slept all night for the first time in a long time.

I talked with Rick at length about these types of situations and the
lack of an organized approach for help. He stated her would
reorganize a separate website dedicated to controlling and
destructive relationships and perhaps produce a video tape that
could offer some approaches to help. I think Rick can be a valuable
resource to everyone trapped in these relationships. I also
introduced him to this board. Rick may not have the answer but he
has the best approach I have found so far. The professionals we
consulted with were correct; before anyone can be helped they must
WANT to be helped. Rick helps victims see that they need that WANT.
He helps victims see that they need (WANT) to be helped, from there
everything is possible.

The following are links to Rick Ross' websites:
Brainwashing/Cults/Manipulation
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
The Cultic Relationship
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html

I would like to extend my appreciation to the members who
contributed this story. Your words will help many. We cannot think
of enough words to express our gratitude.
 
 

Dear Members. The following story has been given to our forums to
help our members and readers.
Deprogramming
Ending the cult-like draw of the Psychopath
One family's story

Rick Ross Review:

This bulletin board has been extremely valuable to our family. We
nearly lost a daughter and probably would have if it were not for
Rick Ross of the Ross Institute. I hope the following review of Rick
will be of use for others who frequent this board. I believe Rick
can not only help those who are currently involved in a controlling
and destructive relationship but also those who have recently left
one and are having difficulty with the separation.

Rick makes it a point to explain that he is not a trained clinician.
His web page is geared toward cults. He attacks cults and has done
so on dozens of TV talk and news shows. He is SELF taught, soft
spoken, a good listener and backs up everything he states with
clinical documentation. He has performed about 500 hundred de-
programs, the bulk of which have been cultic in origin. He believes
that controlling, abusive relationship are the same as one on one
cultic relationships. He also believes they are harder to break due
to the time spent in a one on one relationship and there is a
romantic investment that may not be present in a cultic
deprogramming. When I asked him to give me an idea of his success
rate he stated that he had about a 75% success rate. He also stated
in a one on one relationship that percentage was lower.

Due to other professionals telling us that we could not save our
daughter until she wanted to be saved and that was not going to be
until she hit as low as was humanly possible and that fact that we
were extremely doubtful that a cultic deprogramming would do
anything but further remove us from our daughter we were extremely
hesitant to hire Rick.  However after 18 months of her life and ours
getting worse and worse and no hope in the future we were all very
disparate. We called Rick and tried to understand the connection
between cultic and controlling abusive relationships. We checked his
references and regardless of the outcome everyone had high praise
for Rick and the process. That still didn't do it. A couple of
months ago we deliberately passed up on an opportunity to bring Rick
in. After that missed opportunity she ran away with her abuser to
Florida. She latter called us crying that she had been abandoned had
no money and left with a hotel bill. This was a consistent behavior
pattern. He constantly abused her and left her only so she would
have to beg him to take her back! We called Rick and he was
available for five days. We then called our daughter back and stated
we would only rescue her if she agreed to be with us for a couple of
days and get help. We flew down to Florida on Monday night. Rick
Flew down on Tuesday. I picked him up from the airport which was
about an hour away from where we were staying. This gave us ample
time for Rick to go over what he expected from us and for him to get
a complete understanding of the situation.

Both my wife and I were present during the entire four days. Our job
was to be supportive to her and also reinforce a fact if she refused
to see it when Rick brought it up. We started at 9AM and Rick
proceeded to discuss his background and then to get her to describe
her relationship. She blamed most of what was happening to her as
just a bad relationship; their stars were not in alignment and
refused to understand that she was in a controlling abusive
relationship. He then started to describe other bad relationships, a
lot of which have been publicized and many that have not. He is
extremely good at telling random stories of past experiences which
he latter refers back to make a point. He carefully reviewed the
descriptions of controlling and abusive relationships and got her to
agree to each characteristic that was present in her relationship.
If there were twelve factors outlined in the documentation in most
cases her abused fit 12 of them. This was repeated several times
documented by a different clinical paper each time. Rick then
referred back to the tragic cases where this type of relationship
had produced devastating results. Our daughter was particularly
touched by the Nusbaum case, as were we all.

The bubble her abuser created and kept her in filled her with a
tremendous amount of distorted feelings and information which he
used against her, her friends and family. Rick spent the part of the
afternoon educating her on this isolation technique and how it had
impacted her thinking and feelings. He used dozens of examples and
related them to the feelings she now had about us and how they were
a distortion form the reality she had always known.  That was a full
first day and we were all exhausted. She was still holding on to him
but we saw some cracks in that foundation.

On the second day he went after the relationship much stronger. He
spent a good part of the morning reviewing the day before and
learning more about how she was treated. They discussed random and
unbelievable charges he made against her. If she took to long in a
store then she must be F##king the store manger because she was in
there alone. This verbal abuse would continue for hours until she
struck out at him and at that point SHE was characterized as being
psychotic. They covered many more sickening examples. He then
introduced her to all the current literature on brain washing and
very slowly went over each element used. They he demonstrated by the
behavior that her abuser had demonstrated to her that she was a
victim of every technique. We could see that this hit her hard and
her house of sand was crumbling. The session ended that day when he
tried to explain to her that this was not love. She left the session
crying and ran up to her room. She would come a couple of hours
latter and acted like the daughter we had always known, but we did
not discuss anything further that night about her situation.

On day three he spent the entire morning reviewing the previously
two days. He reinforced how her abuser's actions were in complete
alliance with current documentation on mind control techniques. He
reviewed the Nusbaun, Smart, Simpson and other high profile
controlling relationship cases and related how their abusers had
controlled them by using these same techniques. He explained that
her abuser had never studied these techniques but had fallen into
the because of his personality type and used them to get his way. He
related this to how he treats his mother. He is 22, doesn't hold a
steady job, is an alcoholic, drug user, has been arrested over 50
times does not pay rent, his mother does his laundry buys him things
and he abuses her constantly telling her she is a bitch and needs to
get laid.
He then asked what type of person does these types to things. Rick
then produced clinical descriptions of narcissists and went through
point by point with my daughter his actions and how they fit this
disorder exactly. He demonstrated that this type of person is
incapable of real love. The love they believe they have and are
offering is distorted and sick. He showed where this type of person
does not change; in fact they get much worse with age. He stated
where he had a history of violence he had thrown full coke cans at
her head, shaving cans, even air conditioners that this was only
going to get worse and had a good probability of ending up like one
of the cases he had reviewed. Again he reviewed the personality
disorder and informed her that his actions demonstrated that he was
never going to change plus there was a high probability of a tragic
outcome. He also stated that if the thought back he could predict
when her relationship with her abuser turned bad. He stated it was
right after she told him she loved him. The look in her eyes was
devastating. The third day ended with Rick asking her to think about
all they had talked about and to be ready to make some decisions
tomorrow. That night I took her to dinner. My wife was not feeling
well. It had been a stressful day for all of us. My daughter
indicated that she was very upset. I asked her if she was upset at
us and she stated no. I am upset a him.

  On day four he spent the morning reviewing what had been covered
the previous days. At the end of the morning he asked her if she had
made a decision and she stated she wanted her life and family back.
After lunch Rick tried to convince her how dangerous he was and that
he would stop at nothing to try to trick her and get her back. He
made it clear that NO CONTACT was her only option. We all tried to
get her to invest two to three weeks in a clinic he had recommended
but were not successful. She did agree to take out a restraining
order and seek professional help in our home area.

Rick was excellent in his approach, content and documentation. He
built a logical and documented case to my daughter in a controlled
non-bias manner. We were lucky in that my daughter responded to the
logic and reason. However I must state there is no one I am aware of
that could have presented the information better than Rick. If
anyone is thinking on using Rick for a love one or for you own
particular situation and the person open enough to listen I believe
he will be successful. He is not cheap! The four days ran us $2800
and the travel time and travel and expenses ran another $2500. Is he
worth it? To us, knowing what we know now we would have sold the
house and paid him 10 times that for what he did.

Last Friday we were in out third day with Rick. We are now home. Our
daughter obtained her own restraining order. Monday she starts at a
clinic specializing in the aftermath of this kind of destructive
relationship. She is enrolled for two weeks of day classes and will
need some additional help after it's over. She is also contacting
her college to re-enroll this fall. Will there still be tough times,
yes; but my wife slept all night for the first time in a long time.

I talked with Rick at length about these types of situations and the
lack of an organized approach for help. He stated her would
reorganize a separate website dedicated to controlling and
destructive relationships and perhaps produce a video tape that
could offer some approaches to help. I think Rick can be a valuable
resource to everyone trapped in these relationships. I also
introduced him to this board. Rick may not have the answer but he
has the best approach I have found so far. The professionals we
consulted with were correct; before anyone can be helped they must
WANT to be helped. Rick helps victims see that they need that WANT.
He helps victims see that they need (WANT) to be helped, from there
everything is possible.

The following are links to Rick Ross' websites:
Brainwashing/Cults/Manipulation
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
The Cultic Relationship
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html

I would like to extend my appreciation to the members who
contributed this story. Your words will help many. We cannot think
of enough words to express our gratitude.

Dear Members. This site is available for users who wish a separate
venue from our MSN forums.

The policies/rules at this forum are the same as at our MSN groups:
http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER-
PRIVATEFORUM/welcomepageandforumpolicies.msnw

The Golden Rule applies.

Abuse in chat will be grounds for banning from all our forums.

Respect that everyone has been through abusive relationships and
respect and tolerance is our policy.

Members can right-click in the chat text area and make a copy of the
transcript. If there's a problem, send that transcript to
femfree@... and the managers will take whatever action is
required.

Also, if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact
me.

Cheers!
femfree

Welcome!!  You may wish to check out our psychopath forum here:
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/home.htm

Nice to see you here.
femfree

Hi and Welcome Eliza. Your question is an excellent one. There is a
lot of similarities and overlap with Antisocial PD (the psychopath)
and NPD (the narcissist). Accoridng to the study done by Ronningstam
and Gunderson, the primary difference is the narcissists need for
attention and adulation.

The results confirm a sufficiently broad array of similarities that
the question of whether these categories should be kept separate (as
they are in DSM-IV) is underscored. The results also indicate
important areas of difference. The NPD sample was best discriminated
from the ASPD sample by their grandiosity, that is, the tendency to
exaggerate their talents, and to regard themselves as more unique and
superior.
From: Abstract: Differentiating narcissistic and antisocial
personality disorders.
Gunderson JG, Ronningstam E. J Personal Disord 2001 Apr;15(2):103-9

Onething Eliza is that we're not professionals and it becomes up to
us to figure out what's wrong with our abusive persons in our lives.
To this end, we must all learn as much as we can as fast as we can
and protect ourselves financially and emotionally.

As we learn about mental disorders, we also learn a lot about
ourselves along the way.

An abuser is an abuser and while it's nice to have a label to pin on
them (this may be needed in the legal arena) it's also nice to know
that pigeon-holding them into the right 'slot' really isn't
necessary. My husband is bi-polar, very narcissistic and borderline,
he would also meet the criteria for both masochistic and sadistic
(that one just barely) PDs as well.

Here's a link to our psychopath forum
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/home.htm

and our Narcissistic Personality Disroder forum
http://groups.msn.com/NARCISSISTICPERSONALITYDISORDER/home1.msnw

You will find pages of link and information there about these
disorders to help cope with these people in our lives.

My apologies for the late delay in responding. I am usually at those
forums and not here as often.

Take Care
femfree
(financial & emotional freedom)





--- In Psychopathsgroup@yahoogroups.com, "elizaaddams"
<elizaaddams@y...> wrote:
> For a long time I've thought my ex is a narcissist. And I'm sure he
> is. But I'd like to know what separates a plain narcissit from a
> psychopath?


>
> Eliza

For a long time I've thought my ex is a narcissist. And I'm sure he
is. But I'd like to know what separates a plain narcissit from a
psychopath?

Eliza

We look forward to seeing you at our psychopath forum. We have over
500 links and many resources about psychopaths and the devastation
they can cause.

http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/home.htm

Take Care
femfree

Characteristics  of  a  Psychopath A 'DIRTY DOZEN'
How  many  does  yours  have?

1. The `Jekyll/Hyde' Psychopath comes on strong, sweeps us off our
feet. Appearing to be our 'soulmate', he falsely mirrors our values,
interests, goals, philosophies, tastes and habits. He mimics our
ambition, integrity, honesty and sincerity. He wants to marry us
quickly. This control freak wants us dependent on him. He portrays
false integrity, appears helpful, comforting, generous in
his 'idealization' of us phase. It never lasts as Jekyll turns into
Hyde. He blames others. His victims are objectified and disposable.
He convincingly mimics human emotions. His lack of conscience is
shocking, incomprehensible and emotionally painful to us. We
remember his odd reaction to situations. We end the relationship and
salvage what we can, or we are quickly discarded as he cultivates
a "new perfect soulmate". He will have numerous relationships. He
may drop verbal clues about his true character early in the
relationship, but we fail to grasp its meaning. Later, when the
psychopath eventually emerges, we remember his early warning. His
targets suffer emotional and financial devastation and our emotional
recovery is lengthy. Defense Strategy: Abandon your efforts to help
or cure him. His true mask exposed, your 'soulmate' is gone forever.
Accept the reality. Seek therapy. Join a support group to know you
are not alone. Don't take the bait when he blames or lies. They fool
even trained professionals. Do not be vulnerable or naive. Prepare
for a nasty divorce. Accept no abuse. Learn about mental diseases
and disorders.

2. The Female Psychopath: Using her false mask, this
charming "Southern Belle" schemer appears helpless or needy,
pitiful, inept or emotionally unable to cope. Even total strangers
give her things she gratefully accepts. Falsely claiming to be the
victim, this passive parasite lures and abuses the normal
protector/provider instincts in her male target. When her mask comes
off she is cunning, ruthless, predatory, and loveless. Defense
Strategy: She'll try to hook and reel you in. Take the hook out of
your lip. Don't make her emotional neediness your problem. This
black hole of need can never be filled. Understand the mask of
helplessness is not the "real her".  If she won't give reasonable
answers to reasonable questions turn and run. Beware and
remember "...deadlier than the male." Realize she uses sexuality as
a lure. Avoid financial or emotional involvement.

3. 'Liar Liar'  He will lie for no reason. He will skilfully twists
our words, evade questions, and omit important facts in his ever-
changing, self-serving goals. "Hang 'em high" he says about the
murderer on the 6:00 news. This hypocrite portrays himself of high
morals then proceeds to exploit, manipulate and abuse. His lies and
projection are emotionally cruel. He will accuse you of being crazy.
Defense Strategy: Quietly verify what he says. The grain of truth he
drops occasionally is deceptive manipulation. Do not try to
negotiate or bargain. Head for the door when things don't add up.
Learn about projection.

4. The Thrll Seeker never learns from his past follies. Easily
bored, his hunt for new thrills escalates. His reckless disregard
for others endangers them. Poor impulse control, bad judgment,
criminal activity and substance abuse are common. Defense Strategy:
Don't get involved. Use your good judgment. Say No. Don't take the
bait of his rage or manipulation. Don't bail him out.

5. The Malevolent Psychopath is now fully unmasked. We remember when
his eyes were vacant, cold and predatory. This wife-beater,
murderer, serial killer, stalker, rapist, fighter, harasser,
terrorist has a 'chip-on-his-shoulder' attitude. His short fuse
erupts into rages. He anticipates betrayal, humiliation or
punishment. He imagines rejection and rejects first to 'get it over
with'. He will harass to get your reaction and try to make you look
out of control. Can become dangerous and unpredictable. He has no
remorse, no conscience and no regard for the rights of others. This
coward sadistically picks on the vulnerable, women, children and the
elderly. Defies probation or the courts. He has bad judgment. He
never learns his lesson and and repeats past actions to his own
detriment. The media loves stories about his heinous acts. Defense
Strategy: Act to protect yourself physically, financially and
emotionally. Don't tip your hand that you're leaving. Don't take the
bait of his over-reactions. Be aware of the services of the police,
law and shelters.

6. The Arrogant Psychopath Displays his false mask and his haughty
strut as he demands centre stage. He seeks envy, attention even our
fear and hatred. He can never get enough. Fame or infamy are the
same to him if he can acquire notoriety. Reacts disproportionately
to situations. He boastfully displays his possessions to garner
attention. Defense Strategy: Learn the red flags of behaviour.
Demand equal treatment. Deny him the attention he demands. Learn
about Malignant Narcissism

7. The Charismatic Leader manipulates others to obtain status,
control, compliance, money, attention. His effective brainwashing
tactics often found in religious cults or political venues. He
targets the naive, vulnerable, uneducated or mentally weak. He
falsely portrays himself to be virtuous, the perfect father,
husband, spiritual leader, advisor, mentor, friend. Defense
Strategy: Avoid him. Know his payoff is attention, money or abusing
us. Be suspicious of excessive charisma emanating from others. Pay
attention when your gut instinct tells you to avoid him.

8. The Promiscuous Psychopath (male or female). Pornography,
hypersexuality, masturbation, incest are reported by his targets.
Anyone, young, old, male/female, even animals are there for his
gratification. This predator takes what is available. Can have a
preference for 'sado-maso' sexuality. Easily bored, he demands
increasingly deviant stimulation. The internet a favourite hunting
ground. However, another type exists, the one who withholds sex or
affection. Defense Strategy: Expect this type to try to degrade you.
Get away from him. Expect him to tell lies about your sexuality to
evade exposure of his own. Be aware of their frequent presence on
the internet.

9. The Nomadic Parasite has a lack of long-term goals. With
unrealistic expectations, he is aimless and lacking commitment,
focus or direction. He aggressively pursues opportunistic predatory
use of others. Defense strategy: Be aware of their red flags. Don't
bail him out. Know his ability to appear helpless, pitiful, confused
and needing our assistance.

10. Conman/Manipulator pits people against each other. We may be
used as his proxy interacting with others as he sets us up to take
the fall while he enjoys watching the performance he orchestrates.
Keeps his allies and targets separate to avoid exposure. Verbally
skilled at twisting our words, this charmer usually gets his way.
Applying 'fear' selling tactics, this scam artist crafts situations
to appear indispensable, ready to solve our problems. Money and
conning others are his objective. He will agree to anything then
turn around and do the opposite. He will accuse you of breaking the
contract. Legal, custody agreements and normal social or personal
protocol mean nothing to him. Enjoys orchestrating police/legal
action and playing the role of the 'poor me' victim. Defense
Strategy: Expect him to disregard the agreement. Know the 'nature of
the beast'. Facing consequences is his best lesson. Avoid
involvement. Be self-sufficient. Avoid any "Trust-Me" get-rich-quick
sales pitch. Learn how swindlers and scam artists operate.

11. The Professional Psychopath is often successful and intelligent
in his field. He can masterfully fake his abilities and credentials.
He exploits others, and must be in absolute control. He relies on
his intellectual manipulation, and charisma. His eye on the
boardroom, he backstabs his way to high position. He ruthlessly
abuses his power. His bad judgment has adverse affects on many
levels of society. He places others in problem or failure
situations. This professional bully has no social conscience, and is
often suspicious and paranoid. Others may support him to further
their own objective but this wheeler-dealer leaves them holding the
bag. Defense Strategy: Keep your references and resume up to date.
Don't get involved in anything illegal. Document thoroughly to
protect yourself. Thwarting them may backlash with a cascade of
retaliation.

12. The Psychopath Child displays signs as early as age 3. This
juvenile delinquent shows early red flags of psychopathy including
lying, fighting, stealing, bullying, bad judgment, cheating, cruelty
to animals, vandalism, truancy, sexual activity, fire-setting,
substance abuse, and running away from home. Many see him
as 'sneaky'. Defense Strategy: Fix the problem, not the blame.
Maintain domestic stability. Recognize signs in early childhood.
Reinforce and reward positive behaviour. Seek therapy. Establish
firm moral integrity standards within the home.

We have used the male gender. Yours could be female. Additional
Reading: 20 Traits of Malignant Narcissism
Enjoy the Psychopath Fun Test (Is Yours One?)
http://members.tripod.com/~CollA/social/growth/psycho.htm
For permission to copy, email mylady54@.... Thank You!