I have support groups, but NOT for victims of  "N"'s.
I have found it is too time consuming to run those,
and I feel the issues are things I am still working on, myself.
I spend most of my time, not in therapy but on "work".
I have a heavy but flexible schedule.
I don' t feel capable of doing N groups. I do not run them.
I found them on Yahoo Groups through the search function.
We/I call them ACON groups.
"I did not have NP parents
so I find myself at a bit of a loss to know what to say."
Maybe you were brought up naive and protected. Too much protection makes us unable to cope or "learning" to cope with adversity at an older age.
I tried to let my kids deal with the consequences of their actions rather than 'do thing for them" so they could learn early to be responsible for themselves and their own happiness, to a degree.
There is a happy medium somewhere.
-sue d.

Darla wrote:

 Thanks Sue. We are indeed fortunate to have you here. Do we have a
link to your site: I would enjoy adding it here. I know a couple of
<i>"Children of Ns"</i> forums that I belong to and quite regularly
mention them to our members. A member recently mentioned...

"It seems a little strange to me that I logged onto these boards in
response to a threat from my P ex only to find I am discovering more
about my childhood than anything else!!"

and one from our front page at the MSN P forum:

"I have both a therapist and psychiatrist, and both helped me see
how I gravitate toward men without consciences because I was raised
around them. In fact, I was willing to look the other way for this
guy precisely because I grew up looking the other way"

It's been surprising to me how many members have had NP parents and
others in their families while growing up. I did not have NP parents
so I find myself at a bit of a loss to know what to say.

In response to messages, we have some websites that may be of help:

Helping Children Understand
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/helpingchildrenunderstand.msnw
and Effect of Abusive Parents
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/effectsofabusiveparents.msnw

Of course the book Toxic Parents by Dr. Susan Forward, continues to
be a favourite mentioned.
http://groups.msn.com/PSYCHOPATH/effectsofabusiveparents.msnw

Also, Dr. Richard Grossman's site about Voicelessness continues to
be one of my personal favourites.

It is a bitter discovery to learn the extend of the abuse on our
lives and it's impact in our later relationship management and
awareness.

It's almost so overwhelming it shocks me sometimes.

I'm glad there are forums devoted to this aspect of abuse.

Take great care!
femfree
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

--- In Psychopathsgroup@yahoogroups.com, SD <sue.darnell@v...> wrote:
> Great post I'm new here. I'm new here. I'm 51 and pretty stable
now. My
> mother has NPD and I believe she has no conscience. I consequently
grew
> up (and my sister) in  complete and utter madness. She once
thought she
> hit a cat with her car and went back to help it. She wound up
sneaking
> around people's backyards that night in her night gown. I was a
child
> and thought this behavior was normal. My mother's other behaviors
range
> from Joan Crawford to stuff Leona Helmsley stuff and "beyond."
She take
> pride in hurting people , ripping them off, etc. Taught em
burglary when
> I was 11 years old. Taught me at age 6 to lie and keep secrets for
her.
> She is a convicted felon and I believe she is only behaving at all
to
> avoid prison. I do not have an official diagnosis for her, she
does not
> drink or use drugs. But she is the smartest person she knows and
claims
> to b e a victim that everyone abandoned her. She claims she has
given us
> gifts and we have used her. She has a little entourage of
supporters of
> course, but they  are dwindling. Some have died, others are getting
> smart. I'm sure she has lied to therapists.
> My situation now is that she is getting older and I worry about her
> because I have a conscience and empathy. She needs help but the
whole
> family moved thousands of miles a way from her for safety reasons.
Well,
> I am torn and believe I will never feel resolved because I believe
that
> I would like to help her but I do not know how to protect myself
while
> doing so. I cannot afford to quit work and go there. And she would
> sabotage any work I did while there, anyway. It is her pattern. She
> sweet talks people into her web and then abuses them, not unlike
like a
> spider. I cannot shake feelings of guilt and I continue to
correspond
> with her when I can. So the guilt trips are very fresh and blatant
and
> ever forthcoming. She has never been a grandmother to my 1 child
> although she did act nicely toward one of my children. She prefers
males
> above females and when He was 14, things got out of hand, as she
likes
> people to sleep in her bed. Innocently, watching old movies on TV
but it
> was  not healthy in my eyes.  My son seems ok and seems very
normal, is
> 27 and seems not to be harmed. She may have spared the
grandchildren the
> abuse the dished out to her own children. But I protected my second
> child better. She has a small fortune or claims to and threatens
to cut
> everyone out on a regular basis in her will. She uses her will
like a
> weapon and probably hs no will.
> Oh well, I have gone on too much. A lifelong pattern of abuse. Btw,
> there have been times that I did not speak with her for 10 years
at a
> time. I have forgiven her for abuses but have not forgotten. Right
> now... today, I take care of me and mine and do not associate with
her
> on a deep level, 1 minute at a time. I also believe I have DID
from it.
> In fact, I know I do. Any hoe for my guilt complex?
> I believe I will never be good enough to take care of my parent in
a way
> that most people can. I would if I could, but I cannot figure out
how
> to. I know we have enabled her in the past because we did not know
the
> pathology No one in the family would do that again. I don't think
> everybody can even have a bottom. Crises can also teach people to
cover
> up better or to be covert in their abuse. Some do not hit bottom I
> believe, and I have seen some die.
> I have been in supervised and group therapy for over 20 years. I
use
> online groups now. Mainly I belong to groups for Adult Children of
> Narcissists. More? I am a certified paraprofessional in Health and
Human
> Services, specializing in entry level, short term counseling
> (certificate from SDSU).
> -Sue D.
>
>
> Darla wrote:
>
> >  Dear Members. The following story has been given to our forums
to
> > help our members and readers.
> > Deprogramming
> > Ending the cult-like draw of the Psychopath
> > One family's story
> >
> > Rick Ross Review:
> >
> > This bulletin board has been extremely valuable to our family. We
> > nearly lost a daughter and probably would have if it were not for
> > Rick Ross of the Ross Institute. I hope the following review of
Rick
> > will be of use for others who frequent this board. I believe Rick
> > can not only help those who are currently involved in a
controlling
> > and destructive relationship but also those who have recently
left
> > one and are having difficulty with the separation.
> >
> > Rick makes it a point to explain that he is not a trained
clinician.
> > His web page is geared toward cults. He attacks cults and has
done
> > so on dozens of TV talk and news shows. He is SELF taught, soft
> > spoken, a good listener and backs up everything he states with
> > clinical documentation. He has performed about 500 hundred de-
> > programs, the bulk of which have been cultic in origin. He
believes
> > that controlling, abusive relationship are the same as one on one
> > cultic relationships. He also believes they are harder to break
due
> > to the time spent in a one on one relationship and there is a
> > romantic investment that may not be present in a cultic
> > deprogramming. When I asked him to give me an idea of his success
> > rate he stated that he had about a 75% success rate. He also
stated
> > in a one on one relationship that percentage was lower.
> >
> > Due to other professionals telling us that we could not save our
> > daughter until she wanted to be saved and that was not going to
be
> > until she hit as low as was humanly possible and that fact that
we
> > were extremely doubtful that a cultic deprogramming would do
> > anything but further remove us from our daughter we were
extremely
> > hesitant to hire Rick.  However after 18 months of her life and
ours
> > getting worse and worse and no hope in the future we were all
very
> > disparate. We called Rick and tried to understand the connection
> > between cultic and controlling abusive relationships. We checked
his
> > references and regardless of the outcome everyone had high praise
> > for Rick and the process. That still didn't do it. A couple of
> > months ago we deliberately passed up on an opportunity to bring
Rick
> > in. After that missed opportunity she ran away with her abuser to
> > Florida. She latter called us crying that she had been abandoned
had
> > no money and left with a hotel bill. This was a consistent
behavior
> > pattern. He constantly abused her and left her only so she would
> > have to beg him to take her back! We called Rick and he was
> > available for five days. We then called our daughter back and
stated
> > we would only rescue her if she agreed to be with us for a
couple of
> > days and get help. We flew down to Florida on Monday night. Rick
> > Flew down on Tuesday. I picked him up from the airport which was
> > about an hour away from where we were staying. This gave us ample
> > time for Rick to go over what he expected from us and for him to
get
> > a complete understanding of the situation.
> >
> > Both my wife and I were present during the entire four days. Our
job
> > was to be supportive to her and also reinforce a fact if she
refused
> > to see it when Rick brought it up. We started at 9AM and Rick
> > proceeded to discuss his background and then to get her to
describe
> > her relationship. She blamed most of what was happening to her as
> > just a bad relationship; their stars were not in alignment and
> > refused to understand that she was in a controlling abusive
> > relationship. He then started to describe other bad
relationships, a
> > lot of which have been publicized and many that have not. He is
> > extremely good at telling random stories of past experiences
which
> > he latter refers back to make a point. He carefully reviewed the
> > descriptions of controlling and abusive relationships and got
her to
> > agree to each characteristic that was present in her
relationship.
> > If there were twelve factors outlined in the documentation in
most
> > cases her abused fit 12 of them. This was repeated several times
> > documented by a different clinical paper each time. Rick then
> > referred back to the tragic cases where this type of relationship
> > had produced devastating results. Our daughter was particularly
> > touched by the Nusbaum case, as were we all.
> >
> > The bubble her abuser created and kept her in filled her with a
> > tremendous amount of distorted feelings and information which he
> > used against her, her friends and family. Rick spent the part of
the
> > afternoon educating her on this isolation technique and how it
had
> > impacted her thinking and feelings. He used dozens of examples
and
> > related them to the feelings she now had about us and how they
were
> > a distortion form the reality she had always known.  That was a
full
> > first day and we were all exhausted. She was still holding on to
him
> > but we saw some cracks in that foundation.
> >
> > On the second day he went after the relationship much stronger.
He
> > spent a good part of the morning reviewing the day before and
> > learning more about how she was treated. They discussed random
and
> > unbelievable charges he made against her. If she took to long in
a
> > store then she must be F##king the store manger because she was
in
> > there alone. This verbal abuse would continue for hours until she
> > struck out at him and at that point SHE was characterized as
being
> > psychotic. They covered many more sickening examples. He then
> > introduced her to all the current literature on brain washing and
> > very slowly went over each element used. They he demonstrated by
the
> > behavior that her abuser had demonstrated to her that she was a
> > victim of every technique. We could see that this hit her hard
and
> > her house of sand was crumbling. The session ended that day when
he
> > tried to explain to her that this was not love. She left the
session
> > crying and ran up to her room. She would come a couple of hours
> > latter and acted like the daughter we had always known, but we
did
> > not discuss anything further that night about her situation.
> >
> > On day three he spent the entire morning reviewing the previously
> > two days. He reinforced how her abuser's actions were in complete
> > alliance with current documentation on mind control techniques.
He
> > reviewed the Nusbaun, Smart, Simpson and other high profile
> > controlling relationship cases and related how their abusers had
> > controlled them by using these same techniques. He explained that
> > her abuser had never studied these techniques but had fallen into
> > the because of his personality type and used them to get his
way. He
> > related this to how he treats his mother. He is 22, doesn't hold
a
> > steady job, is an alcoholic, drug user, has been arrested over 50
> > times does not pay rent, his mother does his laundry buys him
things
> > and he abuses her constantly telling her she is a bitch and
needs to
> > get laid.
> > He then asked what type of person does these types to things.
Rick
> > then produced clinical descriptions of narcissists and went
through
> > point by point with my daughter his actions and how they fit this
> > disorder exactly. He demonstrated that this type of person is
> > incapable of real love. The love they believe they have and are
> > offering is distorted and sick. He showed where this type of
person
> > does not change; in fact they get much worse with age. He stated
> > where he had a history of violence he had thrown full coke cans
at
> > her head, shaving cans, even air conditioners that this was only
> > going to get worse and had a good probability of ending up like
one
> > of the cases he had reviewed. Again he reviewed the personality
> > disorder and informed her that his actions demonstrated that he
was
> > never going to change plus there was a high probability of a
tragic
> > outcome. He also stated that if the thought back he could predict
> > when her relationship with her abuser turned bad. He stated it
was
> > right after she told him she loved him. The look in her eyes was
> > devastating. The third day ended with Rick asking her to think
about
> > all they had talked about and to be ready to make some decisions
> > tomorrow. That night I took her to dinner. My wife was not
feeling
> > well. It had been a stressful day for all of us. My daughter
> > indicated that she was very upset. I asked her if she was upset
at
> > us and she stated no. I am upset a him.
> >
> > On day four he spent the morning reviewing what had been covered
> > the previous days. At the end of the morning he asked her if she
had
> > made a decision and she stated she wanted her life and family
back.
> > After lunch Rick tried to convince her how dangerous he was and
that
> > he would stop at nothing to try to trick her and get her back. He
> > made it clear that NO CONTACT was her only option. We all tried
to
> > get her to invest two to three weeks in a clinic he had
recommended
> > but were not successful. She did agree to take out a restraining
> > order and seek professional help in our home area.
> >
> > Rick was excellent in his approach, content and documentation. He
> > built a logical and documented case to my daughter in a
controlled
> > non-bias manner. We were lucky in that my daughter responded to
the
> > logic and reason. However I must state there is no one I am
aware of
> > that could have presented the information better than Rick. If
> > anyone is thinking on using Rick for a love one or for you own
> > particular situation and the person open enough to listen I
believe
> > he will be successful. He is not cheap! The four days ran us
$2800
> > and the travel time and travel and expenses ran another $2500.
Is he
> > worth it? To us, knowing what we know now we would have sold the
> > house and paid him 10 times that for what he did.
> >
> > Last Friday we were in out third day with Rick. We are now home.
Our
> > daughter obtained her own restraining order. Monday she starts
at a
> > clinic specializing in the aftermath of this kind of destructive
> > relationship. She is enrolled for two weeks of day classes and
will
> > need some additional help after it's over. She is also contacting
> > her college to re-enroll this fall. Will there still be tough
times,
> > yes; but my wife slept all night for the first time in a long
time.
> >
> > I talked with Rick at length about these types of situations and
the
> > lack of an organized approach for help. He stated her would
> > reorganize a separate website dedicated to controlling and
> > destructive relationships and perhaps produce a video tape that
> > could offer some approaches to help. I think Rick can be a
valuable
> > resource to everyone trapped in these relationships. I also
> > introduced him to this board. Rick may not have the answer but he
> > has the best approach I have found so far. The professionals we
> > consulted with were correct; before anyone can be helped they
must
> > WANT to be helped. Rick helps victims see that they need that
WANT.
> > He helps victims see that they need (WANT) to be helped, from
there
> > everything is possible.
> >
> > The following are links to Rick Ross' websites:
> > Brainwashing/Cults/Manipulation
> >
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing11.html
> > The Cultic Relationship
> >
http://www.rickross.com/reference/brainwashing/brainwashing18.html
> >
> > I would like to extend my appreciation to the members who
> > contributed this story. Your words will help many. We cannot
think
> > of enough words to express our gratitude.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     -------------------------------------------------------------
--
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >    * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychopathsgroup/
> >
> >    * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >      Psychopathsgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >    * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> >      Service.
> >
> --
> -Sue Darnell
> (mexican_gifts)
> http://www.stores.ebay.com/mexicansilverandstuff

--
-Sue Darnell
(mexican_gifts)
http://www.stores.ebay.com/mexicansilverandstuff