i'm always for personal choice, but i think this was a good move indeed. I

recall the "NSAIDS wreck your liver" scare back in 1995, a few weeks into it the

NY DAILY NEWS published a half-page interview with the discoverer of

acetaminophen. He said he told his bosses it was "intrinsically hepatotoxic" and

that he suggested "no more than 500 325mg doses in a lifetime". the article went

on to describe the grim 1st place acetaminophen holds in drug-overdose

statistics.



i've told many people of that article over the years, including people who abuse

Vicodin and Percocet specifically... pretty much NO ONE was aware of the risks.

not even most doctors, although my orthopedist told me a couple of weeks ago

that his clinic advises patients to avoid more than 3 grams a day and no more

than 7 days at a time.



I'm especially worried about drug abusers using these pills willy-nilly, they

actually think the opiate within is the bigger risk.

Vicodin/Percocet and their variants were and are a deeply flawed approach to

drug abuse and dependence. Pharma companies mixed them up with the express idea

that pairing acetaminophen with various opiates would limit their abuse

potential by *making abusers feel sick via acetaminophen overdose*. The fact

that many opiate abusers will brag about taking 16 Vicodins at a time during a

drinking binge (Artie Lang from the Howard Stern Show among them) is proof of

the grim failure of that approach.



Ban them.



Jeton





--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, PoWeRTX@... wrote:

>

> Panel Recommends Ban on 2 Popular Painkillers

>

> NY Times

> By GARDINER HARRIS

> Published: June 30, 2009

>

> ADELPHI, Md. â€" A federal advisory panel voted narrowly on Tuesday to

recommend a ban on Percocet and Vicodin, two of the most popular prescription

painkillers in the world, because of their effects on the liver.

>

After hearing all kinds of this scary stuff -- that acetaminophen will destroy

my liver, I find that I have been on NORCO for over a year because of shoulder

surgery, an Achilles tendon tear and heal injuries. The final surgery to fix my

Achilles tendon happens in August, then I will be very happy to NOT talk to a

doctor for a long time and to gradually wean myself off NORCO.



I have been taking 1 and 1/2 to 2 NORCO, which is 10 mg of hydrocodone with 325

mg of acetaminophen per tablet about 4 times a day, getting about 2,000 mg of

acetaminophen per day because I average between 6 and 7 NORCO tablet per day. I

was very skeptical when my doctor told me he had hundreds of patients who took

painkillers that added up to as much as 4,000 mg of acetaminophen per day for

long periods, with no significant liver toxicity. I DO take 1,500 mg of NAC,

which is the antidote for liver toxicity from acetaminophen, per day, and other

supplements that support liver health. How much do they protect me? Who knows.



Well, reporting in, my recent blood tests showed no elevations of AST and ALT or

GGT. While AST and ALT are multi-function tests and do not only read the liver,

GGT is specific to the liver. My GGT measured 20, which is low-mid normal - the

top of normal is 65. MY blood tests say that I am not experiencing any

significant liver toxicity.



I drink alcohol to the tune of 2 to 3 good drinks per night, pretty much every

night. I never drink to get drunk - I don't like being out of control -- only to

relax a little. I've heard that alcohol and acetaminophen could quickly cause

liver failure -- how scary. I've heard this from well-known PhD researchers.

This is a hypothesis on their parts -- not based on the experience my doctor

has, watching the blood tests of hundreds of patients. It is misguided and wrong

on other part, based on my experience.



This scare on acetaminophen, based on my experience is complete bullshit. This

is what my doctor said based on him watching hundreds of patients over dozens of

years.



Just another powergrab by conservative liars who want to control more people's

lives and control the use of painkillers and drugs, in general.



People who are in pain should be given whatever they really need to make life

livable. And moralistic jerks should get their powergrabbing hands out of

people's personal lives. This is exactly the same issue as medical marijuana.



NORCO has helped me live normally, without a lot of pain. I have had the option

to advance to oxycodone/oxycontin, and tried it and didn't like it. It made me

feel dumb and dull. The next day I was very crabby -- and could tell oxycodone

could easily create an addiction syndrome.



I still have 15 tablets that I don't use.



I have friends who have drug addiction problems who can't believe I could refuse

to take oxycodone, but I do just fine with the weaker painkiller, NORCO, with

its hydrocodone and want no part in going to anything more addictive. I have

weaned myself off hydrocodone after hernia surgery 10 years ago, know how to do

it and can do it again.



Goddess, protect is from paternalistic asshole powergrabbers and the FDA who is

in cahoots with them!



Michael Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com



--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, "jetonxxx" <jeton@...> wrote:

>

> i'm always for personal choice, but i think this was a good move indeed. I

recall the "NSAIDS wreck your liver" scare back in 1995, a few weeks into it the

NY DAILY NEWS published a half-page interview with the discoverer of

acetaminophen. He said he told his bosses it was "intrinsically hepatotoxic" and

that he suggested "no more than 500 325mg doses in a lifetime". the article went

on to describe the grim 1st place acetaminophen holds in drug-overdose

statistics.

>

> i've told many people of that article over the years, including people who

abuse Vicodin and Percocet specifically... pretty much NO ONE was aware of the

risks. not even most doctors, although my orthopedist told me a couple of weeks

ago that his clinic advises patients to avoid more than 3 grams a day and no

more than 7 days at a time.

>

> I'm especially worried about drug abusers using these pills willy-nilly, they

actually think the opiate within is the bigger risk.

> Vicodin/Percocet and their variants were and are a deeply flawed approach to

drug abuse and dependence. Pharma companies mixed them up with the express idea

that pairing acetaminophen with various opiates would limit their abuse

potential by *making abusers feel sick via acetaminophen overdose*. The fact

that many opiate abusers will brag about taking 16 Vicodins at a time during a

drinking binge (Artie Lang from the Howard Stern Show among them) is proof of

the grim failure of that approach.

>

> Ban them.

>

> Jeton

>

>

> --- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, PoWeRTX@ wrote:

> >

> > Panel Recommends Ban on 2 Popular Painkillers

> >

> > NY Times

> > By GARDINER HARRIS

> > Published: June 30, 2009

> >

> > ADELPHI, Md. â€" A federal advisory panel voted narrowly on Tuesday to

recommend a ban on Percocet and Vicodin, two of the most popular prescription

painkillers in the world, because of their effects on the liver.

> >

>

i also have experience with acetaminophen, having had a 105.5 fever for a week

in 1995, with highly elevated liver enzymes, with nothing to explain it besides

having taken 3 vicodins and and 3 medium-strong drinks. i wasn't taking NAC at

the time, and most people don't.



there's nothing to stop doctors from prescribing any of the various opiates

currently paired with acetaminophen separately, the problem is in commonly

pairing (and titrating) them together. You describe this as a "powergrab" but

don't show who is gaining power by this move, and how exactly. The point is that

pairing acetaminophen together with opiates in the first place was the actual

powergrab: pharma companies wanted to punish anyone taking 'too much' opiate by

giving them too much acetaminophen to MAKE them sick. here is Time Magazine's

latest article on this, and i'll reprint the last 2 paragraphs here:



http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1908408,00.html?xid=rss-topstorie\

s



***The members based their decision on the studies and data that were presented

to them during the two-day meeting. The vast majority of studies linking liver

failure to acetaminophen use involve prescription acetaminophen products, such

as Vicodin or Percocet; more than 60% of the acetaminophen-associated liver

problems occurred in patients using prescription medications, while only 10%

occurred in those using nonprescription pain remedies. "The recommendations of

the committee are not based on the logic of what we think is happening, but on

the data presented to the committee," says Kramer. "A much larger percent of

liver-failure cases associated with acetaminophen involved a prescription

acetaminophen product."



Members were also concerned about the pairing of narcotic agents such as

hydrocodone and oxycodone, both known to be addictive, with acetaminophen, which

is known to increase the risk of liver problems with higher and higher doses. If

patients become dependent on the narcotic, and continue taking prescription

painkillers, they are also more likely to suffer from liver toxicity associated

with the acetaminophen. "How can you mix a highly addictive drug with one that

can cause toxicity at high doses?" says Dr. William Lee, director of the

Clinical Center for Liver Diseases at the University of Texas Southwestern

Medical Center. Lee presented data to the committee on liver damage due to

acetaminophen overdose. "It's like putting poison in a candy." ****



Jeton



--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <michael@...> wrote:

>

> After hearing all kinds of this scary stuff -- that acetaminophen will destroy

my liver, I find that I have been on NORCO for over a year because of shoulder

surgery, an Achilles tendon tear and heal injuries. The final surgery to fix my

Achilles tendon happens in August, then I will be very happy to NOT talk to a

doctor for a long time and to gradually wean myself off NORCO.

>

> I have been taking 1 and 1/2 to 2 NORCO, which is 10 mg of hydrocodone with

325 mg of acetaminophen per tablet about 4 times a day, getting about 2,000 mg

of acetaminophen per day because I average between 6 and 7 NORCO tablet per day.

I was very skeptical when my doctor told me he had hundreds of patients who took

painkillers that added up to as much as 4,000 mg of acetaminophen per day for

long periods, with no significant liver toxicity. I DO take 1,500 mg of NAC,

which is the antidote for liver toxicity from acetaminophen, per day, and other

supplements that support liver health. How much do they protect me? Who knows.

>

> Well, reporting in, my recent blood tests showed no elevations of AST and ALT

or GGT. While AST and ALT are multi-function tests and do not only read the

liver, GGT is specific to the liver. My GGT measured 20, which is low-mid normal

- the top of normal is 65. MY blood tests say that I am not experiencing any

significant liver toxicity.

>

> I drink alcohol to the tune of 2 to 3 good drinks per night, pretty much every

night. I never drink to get drunk - I don't like being out of control -- only to

relax a little. I've heard that alcohol and acetaminophen could quickly cause

liver failure -- how scary. I've heard this from well-known PhD researchers.

This is a hypothesis on their parts -- not based on the experience my doctor

has, watching the blood tests of hundreds of patients. It is misguided and wrong

on other part, based on my experience.

>

> This scare on acetaminophen, based on my experience is complete bullshit. This

is what my doctor said based on him watching hundreds of patients over dozens of

years.

>

> Just another powergrab by conservative liars who want to control more people's

lives and control the use of painkillers and drugs, in general.

>

> People who are in pain should be given whatever they really need to make life

livable. And moralistic jerks should get their powergrabbing hands out of

people's personal lives. This is exactly the same issue as medical marijuana.

>

> NORCO has helped me live normally, without a lot of pain. I have had the

option to advance to oxycodone/oxycontin, and tried it and didn't like it. It

made me feel dumb and dull. The next day I was very crabby -- and could tell

oxycodone could easily create an addiction syndrome.

>

> I still have 15 tablets that I don't use.

>

> I have friends who have drug addiction problems who can't believe I could

refuse to take oxycodone, but I do just fine with the weaker painkiller, NORCO,

with its hydrocodone and want no part in going to anything more addictive. I

have weaned myself off hydrocodone after hernia surgery 10 years ago, know how

to do it and can do it again.

>

> Goddess, protect is from paternalistic asshole powergrabbers and the FDA who

is in cahoots with them!

>

> Michael Mooney

> www.michaelmooney.net

> www.medibolics.com

>

> --- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, "jetonxxx" <jeton@> wrote:

> >

> > i'm always for personal choice, but i think this was a good move indeed.

I agree entirely. It's stupid to mix hydrocodone with acetaminophen. They should

be separate meds, to be prescribed as such.



This system is based on paternalism, which is, in general, not truly for the

common good, but biased because someone in power thinks they know best or have

higher moral ground.



Michael Mooney



--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, "jetonxxx" <jeton@...> wrote:

>

> i also have experience with acetaminophen, having had a 105.5 fever for a week

in 1995, with highly elevated liver enzymes, with nothing to explain it besides

having taken 3 vicodins and and 3 medium-strong drinks. i wasn't taking NAC at

the time, and most people don't.

>

> there's nothing to stop doctors from prescribing any of the various opiates

currently paired with acetaminophen separately, the problem is in commonly

pairing (and titrating) them together. You describe this as a "powergrab" but

don't show who is gaining power by this move, and how exactly. The point is that

pairing acetaminophen together with opiates in the first place was the actual

powergrab: pharma companies wanted to punish anyone taking 'too much' opiate by

giving them too much acetaminophen to MAKE them sick. here is Time Magazine's

latest article on this, and i'll reprint the last 2 paragraphs here:

>

>

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1908408,00.html?xid=rss-topstorie\

s

>

> ***The members based their decision on the studies and data that were

presented to them during the two-day meeting. The vast majority of studies

linking liver failure to acetaminophen use involve prescription acetaminophen

products, such as Vicodin or Percocet; more than 60% of the

acetaminophen-associated liver problems occurred in patients using prescription

medications, while only 10% occurred in those using nonprescription pain

remedies. "The recommendations of the committee are not based on the logic of

what we think is happening, but on the data presented to the committee," says

Kramer. "A much larger percent of liver-failure cases associated with

acetaminophen involved a prescription acetaminophen product."

>

> Members were also concerned about the pairing of narcotic agents such as

hydrocodone and oxycodone, both known to be addictive, with acetaminophen, which

is known to increase the risk of liver problems with higher and higher doses. If

patients become dependent on the narcotic, and continue taking prescription

painkillers, they are also more likely to suffer from liver toxicity associated

with the acetaminophen. "How can you mix a highly addictive drug with one that

can cause toxicity at high doses?" says Dr. William Lee, director of the

Clinical Center for Liver Diseases at the University of Texas Southwestern

Medical Center. Lee presented data to the committee on liver damage due to

acetaminophen overdose. "It's like putting poison in a candy." ****

>

> Jeton

>

> --- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <michael@> wrote:

> >

> > After hearing all kinds of this scary stuff -- that acetaminophen will

destroy my liver, I find that I have been on NORCO for over a year because of

shoulder surgery, an Achilles tendon tear and heal injuries. The final surgery

to fix my Achilles tendon happens in August, then I will be very happy to NOT

talk to a doctor for a long time and to gradually wean myself off NORCO.

> >

> > I have been taking 1 and 1/2 to 2 NORCO, which is 10 mg of hydrocodone with

325 mg of acetaminophen per tablet about 4 times a day, getting about 2,000 mg

of acetaminophen per day because I average between 6 and 7 NORCO tablet per day.

I was very skeptical when my doctor told me he had hundreds of patients who took

painkillers that added up to as much as 4,000 mg of acetaminophen per day for

long periods, with no significant liver toxicity. I DO take 1,500 mg of NAC,

which is the antidote for liver toxicity from acetaminophen, per day, and other

supplements that support liver health. How much do they protect me? Who knows.

> >

> > Well, reporting in, my recent blood tests showed no elevations of AST and

ALT or GGT. While AST and ALT are multi-function tests and do not only read the

liver, GGT is specific to the liver. My GGT measured 20, which is low-mid normal

- the top of normal is 65. MY blood tests say that I am not experiencing any

significant liver toxicity.

> >

> > I drink alcohol to the tune of 2 to 3 good drinks per night, pretty much

every night. I never drink to get drunk - I don't like being out of control --

only to relax a little. I've heard that alcohol and acetaminophen could quickly

cause liver failure -- how scary. I've heard this from well-known PhD

researchers. This is a hypothesis on their parts -- not based on the experience

my doctor has, watching the blood tests of hundreds of patients. It is misguided

and wrong on other part, based on my experience.

> >

> > This scare on acetaminophen, based on my experience is complete bullshit.

This is what my doctor said based on him watching hundreds of patients over

dozens of years.

> >

> > Just another powergrab by conservative liars who want to control more

people's lives and control the use of painkillers and drugs, in general.

> >

> > People who are in pain should be given whatever they really need to make

life livable. And moralistic jerks should get their powergrabbing hands out of

people's personal lives. This is exactly the same issue as medical marijuana.

> >

> > NORCO has helped me live normally, without a lot of pain. I have had the

option to advance to oxycodone/oxycontin, and tried it and didn't like it. It

made me feel dumb and dull. The next day I was very crabby -- and could tell

oxycodone could easily create an addiction syndrome.

> >

> > I still have 15 tablets that I don't use.

> >

> > I have friends who have drug addiction problems who can't believe I could

refuse to take oxycodone, but I do just fine with the weaker painkiller, NORCO,

with its hydrocodone and want no part in going to anything more addictive. I

have weaned myself off hydrocodone after hernia surgery 10 years ago, know how

to do it and can do it again.

> >

> > Goddess, protect is from paternalistic asshole powergrabbers and the FDA who

is in cahoots with them!

> >

> > Michael Mooney

> > www.michaelmooney.net

> > www.medibolics.com

> >

> > --- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, "jetonxxx" <jeton@> wrote:

> > >

> > > i'm always for personal choice, but i think this was a good move indeed.

>

Michael wrote:



> This scare on acetaminophen, based on my experience is complete

> bullshit....

>

> Just another powergrab by conservative liars who want to control more

> people's lives and control the use of painkillers and drugs, in

> general.



It's very popular these days to "conservative" bash (dog knows, I do my

share of it as well), but I wish Political Science 101, or even 99.5 was

taught more widely.



It's actually the trad *liberal* position to centralize government in

this fashion as well as expand its powers, expand the "nanny state," and

mandate this kind of control in people's lives.  The trad *conservative*

position would be to make it all available, unregulated, and let people

make their own choices, informed or less so.



B/

I agree, however, my "conservative-bashing" includes wolves-in-sheeps-clothing

like Henry Waxman, who never say a paternalistic law to control your behavior

because you're-too-stupid-to-do-it-yourself that he didn't champion.



Waxman's Answers

Drugs/steroids in sports! - Ban steroids from all uses.

Michael Jackson dies of painkillers. -Ban painkillers.

Vitamins compete with drugs, according to FDA in the federal register. -Make

vitamins into prescription-only items.



Yes, he's truly a control-your-life-conservative in liberal clothing.



Michael Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com



--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, Brian Mailman <bmailman@...> wrote:

>

> Michael wrote:

>

> > This scare on acetaminophen, based on my experience is complete

> > bullshit....

> >

> > Just another powergrab by conservative liars who want to control more

> > people's lives and control the use of painkillers and drugs, in

> > general.

>

> It's very popular these days to "conservative" bash (dog knows, I do my

> share of it as well), but I wish Political Science 101, or even 99.5 was

> taught more widely.

>

> It's actually the trad *liberal* position to centralize government in

> this fashion as well as expand its powers, expand the "nanny state," and

> mandate this kind of control in people's lives.  The trad *conservative*

> position would be to make it all available, unregulated, and let people

> make their own choices, informed or less so.

>

> B/

>

Michael wrote:

> I agree,



No, I don't think you do, since you continue to misclassify.  My point

is that classing someone(s) that disagree with you as "the other" is

simply the same dynamic as the conservatives you are bashing employ and

you should know which is which, anyway.



> however, my "conservative-bashing" includes wolves-in-sheeps-clothing

> like Henry Waxman, who never say a paternalistic law to control your

> behavior because you're-too-stupid-to-do-it-yourself that he didn't

> champion.



Which is a trad "liberal" position.  To have an agency or bureau

control, (e.g., expanded governmental control) things that individuals

in a Jeffersonian model can and should control for themselves.



> Waxman's Answers Drugs/steroids in sports! - Ban steroids from all

> uses. Michael Jackson dies of painkillers. -Ban painkillers. Vitamins

> compete with drugs, according to FDA in the federal register. -Make

> vitamins into prescription-only items.



Those are not trad conservative positions, as I said.  You're describing

aspects of the nanny state.  What the conservatives wish is a smaller

government with less regulation (Bush, Rove, and Co. are an extreme

aberration).  As you seem to do.



B/

Hey Guys;



I don't suppose this is a good time to make the announcement about Henry

Waxman's new book in which he details his life-long crusade to protect the

American public.



At least, it was news to me. I nearly fell over in the bookstore.



Ironic or just downright funny?



Sanford



Sanford M. Gross, OD, FAAO

Associate Professor

Illinois College of Optometry

3241 South Michigan Ave

Chicago, Illinois 60616



>>> Brian Mailman <bmailman@...> 7/6/2009 1:01 AM >>>

Michael wrote:

> I agree,



No, I don't think you do, since you continue to misclassify.  My point

is that classing someone(s) that disagree with you as "the other" is

simply the same dynamic as the conservatives you are bashing employ and

you should know which is which, anyway.



> however, my "conservative-bashing" includes wolves-in-sheeps-clothing

> like Henry Waxman, who never say a paternalistic law to control your

> behavior because you're-too-stupid-to-do-it-yourself that he didn't

> champion.



Which is a trad "liberal" position.  To have an agency or bureau

control, (e.g., expanded governmental control) things that individuals

in a Jeffersonian model can and should control for themselves.



> Waxman's Answers Drugs/steroids in sports! - Ban steroids from all

> uses. Michael Jackson dies of painkillers. -Ban painkillers. Vitamins

> compete with drugs, according to FDA in the federal register. -Make

> vitamins into prescription-only items.



Those are not trad conservative positions, as I said.  You're describing

aspects of the nanny state.  What the conservatives wish is a smaller

government with less regulation (Bush, Rove, and Co. are an extreme

aberration).  As you seem to do.



B/

No Joe. It's interesting...his tome on his idealism.



In 1993 APLA took me to meet Waxman in his office to "discuss" technical matters

that he didn't seen to understand about complementary medicine for HIV. He was

actively roadblocking things related to this.



He was duplicitous. As soon as APLA's committee head signaled me to ask the real

questions, he ducked and dodged and almost lost his sheepskin to show the wolf

under it. He's married into the medical/pharma/insurance industry, lock, stock

and $$ and that's why he is NOT supporting Obama's public health care option.



I engaged him one more time at a public meeting in Santa Monica. Same MO.



He may think he's working to protect Americans, but his means to that end

includes deception and acting with a lack of the kind of moral code I think our

President has.



All Democrats who oppose the public health care option should be forced to

consider that they might be voted out of office.



Michael Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com



--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, "Sanford Gross" <SGross@...> wrote:

>

> Hey Guys;

>

> I don't suppose this is a good time to make the announcement about Henry

Waxman's new book in which he details his life-long crusade to protect the

American public.

>

> At least, it was news to me. I nearly fell over in the bookstore.

>

> Ironic or just downright funny?

>

> Sanford

>

> Sanford M. Gross, OD, FAAO

> Associate Professor

> Illinois College of Optometry

> 3241 South Michigan Ave

> Chicago, Illinois 60616

>

> >>> Brian Mailman <bmailman@...> 7/6/2009 1:01 AM >>>

> Michael wrote:

> > I agree,

>

> No, I don't think you do, since you continue to misclassify.  My point

> is that classing someone(s) that disagree with you as "the other" is

> simply the same dynamic as the conservatives you are bashing employ and

> you should know which is which, anyway.

>

> > however, my "conservative-bashing" includes wolves-in-sheeps-clothing

> > like Henry Waxman, who never say a paternalistic law to control your

> > behavior because you're-too-stupid-to-do-it-yourself that he didn't

> > champion.

>

> Which is a trad "liberal" position.  To have an agency or bureau

> control, (e.g., expanded governmental control) things that individuals

> in a Jeffersonian model can and should control for themselves.

>

> > Waxman's Answers Drugs/steroids in sports! - Ban steroids from all

> > uses. Michael Jackson dies of painkillers. -Ban painkillers. Vitamins

> > compete with drugs, according to FDA in the federal register. -Make

> > vitamins into prescription-only items.

>

> Those are not trad conservative positions, as I said.  You're describing

> aspects of the nanny state.  What the conservatives wish is a smaller

> government with less regulation (Bush, Rove, and Co. are an extreme

> aberration).  As you seem to do.

>

> B/

>

The semantics are screwed up.



A true conservative wants government to stay out of controlling people's lives -

I agree with them. Real liberals want to regulate some things to REALLY protect

and really take care of the public. I agree with that.



I agree with socialists related to health care and education.



Politically I am completely independent.



You mistake what I am "bashing."



The difference between my "bashing" and the way the current Refucklicans bash is

that I don't make things up that aren't true while making some kind of attempt

at character assassination or exaggerating the importance of odd trivia to

distract from the real issues. No, you're wrong. I do agree with you. And I

don't want small government when it comes to protecting the public from

industrial vampires. I want strong regulations that actually protect the

well-being of all the people, while giving the people full freedom to be

themselves.



Michael Mooney





--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, Brian Mailman <bmailman@...> wrote:

>

> Michael wrote:

> > I agree,

>

> No, I don't think you do, since you continue to misclassify.  My point

> is that classing someone(s) that disagree with you as "the other" is

> simply the same dynamic as the conservatives you are bashing employ and

> you should know which is which, anyway.

>

> > however, my "conservative-bashing" includes wolves-in-sheeps-clothing

> > like Henry Waxman, who never say a paternalistic law to control your

> > behavior because you're-too-stupid-to-do-it-yourself that he didn't

> > champion.

>

> Which is a trad "liberal" position.  To have an agency or bureau

> control, (e.g., expanded governmental control) things that individuals

> in a Jeffersonian model can and should control for themselves.

>

> > Waxman's Answers Drugs/steroids in sports! - Ban steroids from all

> > uses. Michael Jackson dies of painkillers. -Ban painkillers. Vitamins

> > compete with drugs, according to FDA in the federal register. -Make

> > vitamins into prescription-only items.

>

> Those are not trad conservative positions, as I said.  You're describing

> aspects of the nanny state.  What the conservatives wish is a smaller

> government with less regulation (Bush, Rove, and Co. are an extreme

> aberration).  As you seem to do.

>

> B/

>

Ah, I at first requested Vicoprofen to avoid acetaminophen, but because it is

kidney toxic, it raised my blood pressure A LOT. I'm not sure that it isn't more

kidney toxic than acetaminophen is liver toxic. Maybe someone who is a

pharmacologist here knows. I switched to Vicodin, then Norco -- which has less

acetaminophen per amount of hydrocodone for the most benign effect.



Michael Mooney



--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, Flipper 501501 <flipper501501@...> wrote:

>

> There's always Viprofen (narcotic with ibuprofen) and Empirin #3 (narcotic and

aspirin) so it's not like there are no alternatives to using acetaminophen.  My

understanding is there is a synergy between the two ingredients.  Together, they

give better pain relief than only one or the other.  I've avoided acetaminophen

for years.  It does nothing for me except make me feel slightly nauseated.

>

> --- On Fri, 7/3/09, jetonxxx <jeton@...> wrote:

>

> From: jetonxxx <jeton@...>

> Subject: [PozHealth] Re: NATAP: Ban Vicodin/Percocet-FDA Panel Recommends

BULLSHIT

> To: PozHealth@yahoogroups.com

> Date: Friday, July 3, 2009, 10:48 AM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>       i also have experience with acetaminophen, having had a 105.5 fever for

a week in 1995, with highly elevated liver enzymes, with nothing to explain it

besides having taken 3 vicodins and and 3 medium-strong drinks. i wasn't taking

NAC at the time, and most people don't.

>

"Acetaminophen, where it is known as paracetamol in Europe, I hear is often

sold with its antidote. NAC."



Is it? I never heard of that.



When properly used, paracetamol is quite stomach friendly, with the desired

effect.

And properly used means: staying within the recommended limit of 6 x 500 mg

a day.



Only over 15 x 500mg it is consired harmfull to the liver.

And indeed, in case of overdose, NAC is an antidote.



I consider acetaminophen/paracetamol much safer than NSAID's.



The use of NSAID's, even within their safetly limit, can give many side

efects.

Chronic use of NSAIS's in the Netherlands is always accompanied with proton

pump inhibitors to prevent gastric bleeding.



Regards,





Frank

Amsterdam, The Netherlands

So the "solution" in reaction to people who take too much Acetaminophen is to

propose banning Percocet (Oxycodone) and Vicodin?  To me this is another

knee-jerk reaction void of common sense.  These pain-killers are invaluable to

many people.  What will be next, Aspirin?  Too much Aspirin can erode the

stomach lining.



For this being 2009, in some ways we've not come very far.



Gary

Philip,



The issue of opiophobia is inversely connected to the pairing of acetaminophen

and opiates...opiophobia is what coupled the two drug classes together in the

first place.



There is a patient-driven movement in the USA towards overcoming that doctors'

opiophobia, and many medical bodies are coming to support that movement.

decoupling acetaminophen and opiates makes that easier, because the combination

of the two is simply one of the biggest (or the biggest, depending on the

information source) causes of drug overdoses in the US.



ALL press coverage of the FDA panel decision has focused on the danger involved

being from acetaminophen, not from any opiate. This can only help the cause of

the pain-management movement, as even the most disconnected doctors learn that

the FDA is not as concerned with opiates as they feared. More so now that we

have a rational Executive in place.



I dont know what the over-the-counter drug market looks like in the UK, but here

in the US one can find acetaminophen everywhere and in almost everything.

However, as a result of opiophobia, overdoses and fatalities that should have

been attributed to (prescribed and non-prescribed) acetaminophen were attributed

to prescribed opiates instead.



As you yourself point out, opiates have an exceptionally wide therapeutic

range...but acetaminophen has an exceptionally narrow range. the horridly

paternalistic attitude that paired them together in the first place (expressly

to punish "unauthorized" opiate use) has destroyed tens or hundreds of thousands

of livers and lives pointlessly, and ironically exacerbated the opiophobia that

leaves many in needless agony.



decoupling them has been a long time coming, and will ultimately benefit

patients medically...and politically.



Jeton

********

I suffer from a congenital connective tissue disorder called Marfan syndrome. 

This syndrome is caused by a faulty gene (FBN1) on the 15th chromosome pair, and

is autosomal dominant (if one parent has the syndrome, each child that the

parent brings into the world stands a 50% chance of presenting with this

syndrome).  The fault in FBN1 causes this gene to code for a damaged version of

a key protein called fibrillin-1 (this protein is a key component of connective

tissue).

I learned a lot from this post. Thanks, Philip.



Now, we have two political problems:



1. FDA shouldn't ban these painkillers combined with acetaminophen. I'm not sure

what organizations are against this, but we need to support them in stopping

this.



Even so, ideally, they'd make them separate drugs that are not combined with

acetaminophen. However, I was told that if hydrocodone  was not combined with

acetaminophen, they would make it a schedule 2 drug, not a schedule 3. According

to Philip's post, doctors would be less likely to prescribe it if it were

schedule 2.



2. Nandrolone. A group of compounding pharmacists thinks that the way to help

keep nandrolone on the market is to make it a schedule 2, so that FDA thinks it

is controlled better. The post by Philip convinces me that this would be a

horrible thing to do because doctors would be MORE UNLIKELY to prescribe it.



We need to tell the pharmacists that we do NOT want them to petition for this.

I'm thinking we need to generate a letter to them stating this.



Michael Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com



RE: [PozHealth] Re: Fw: NATAP: Ban Vicodin/Percocet-FDA Panel Recommends



I suffer from a congenital connective tissue disorder called Marfan syndrome. 

This syndrome is caused by a faulty gene (FBN1) on the 15th chromosome pair, and

is autosomal dominant (if one parent has the syndrome, each child that the

parent brings into the world stands a 50% chance of presenting with this

syndrome).  The fault in FBN1 causes this gene to code for a damaged version of

a key protein called fibrillin-1 (this protein is a key component of connective

tissue).



As a direct result of this genetic defect, my connective tissue (the "glue" that

holds the body together) is insufficiently elastic.  This syndrome, if left

untreated, is highly lethal.  As in so many patients who suffer from Marfan

syndrome, I have an ascending aortic aneurysm.  In my case, the aneurysm is not

quite large enough to warrant the brutal surgery that may one day become

necessary – furthermore, the aneurysm has shown absolutely no indication of

increased size since I was first diagnosed as suffering from this condition back

in 1995.  It appears that I may be one of the lucky patients who will never

require the surgery to which I allude above.  This surgery involves replacement

of the aortic root and the aortic valve with a Dacron tube and artificial valves

– this procedure is highly effective, but requires that the patient take

warfarin sodium (Coumadin) for the rest of his or her life.



Currently, the standard of care consists of putting the patient on beta blockers

(e.g. metoprolol 100 mg twice daily) for life – beta blockers reduce both blood

pressure and heart rate.  This in turn places less strain on the aneurysm,

lessening the chances of the aneurysm ever dissecting (slowly coming apart over

a period of hours) or rupturing (in which case the patient usually dies within

seconds).  The standard of care also calls for regular echocardiograms with

complete visualization of the heart, or CT scans (an echocardiogram performed by

a talented radiologist is as good as a CT scan, and has the advantage of

enabling the radiologist to detect and measure any aortic valve incompetence

(which causes regurgitation of blood back into the heart)).



Recently, Dr. Harry Dietz (a world authority on Marfan syndrome and related

conditions) discovered that the faulty FBN1 gene also potentiates the action of

a hormone named Transforming Growth Factor beta (TGF-beta).  This discovery has

completely revolutionized the treatment of Marfan syndrome.  When TGF-beta is

overactive, the patient presents with symptoms such as unusual height  (in my

case, 6'6"), unusually long arms and legs, a highly arched palate, a "crowded

mouth" (too many teeth for too small a mouth), a tendency for some joints to

dislocate spontaneously, and other problems that cannot be attributed to the bad

version of fibrillin-1 acting alone.  Dr. Dietz theorized that drugs that block

the action of TGF-beta may arrest the condition.  He therefore placed several

infants who had very severe cases of Marfan syndrome on a drug named losartan

(which inhibits the action of TGF-beta).  This theory appears to be correct –

Dr. Dietz noted not just arrest of the syndrome in pediatric cases, but in

several cases, complete reversal of the aortic wall abnormalities that give rise

to the aortic aneurysms!  In short, Dr. Dietz identified another factor in the

pathogenesis of Marfan syndrome – as a direct result of his work in pediatric

patients, and the successes he has documented in these patients, he is now

conducting a Phase III clinical trial involving adults, using losartan combined

with beta blockers, irbesartan combined with beta blockers, and beta blockers

alone.  I decided not to wait for the results of this clinical trial, and my

doctor now prescribes losartan for me every month on a repeat prescription.



Without getting too technical, I suffer from chronic pain.  My back, knees, and

arms are badly damaged – phrases such as spur formation, levoscoliosis, annular

bulge, Schmorl's node formation, bone marrow signal changes, degenerative

changes, etc. jump out from the CT scan reports.  My doctor in New York City

(where I lived and worked until about two years ago) treated the chronic pain

with OxyContin as the mainstay of my pain management regimen, and Norco 10 / 325

(hydrocodone 10 mg and acetaminophen 325 mg) for breakthrough pain.



I now live in the UK, where hydrocodone is not marketed – instead, I take

OxyNorm 10 mg and 20 mg capsules, and the UK equivalent of Tylenol #3 with

codeine (known as Co-codamol in the UK) for the treatment of breakthrough pain. 

I continue to take OxyContin 160 mg twice daily as the mainstay of my pain

management strategy.  I am therefore on OxyContin, OxyNorm, and Co-codamol for

pain management.



Yes – thank you, I am well aware of the fact that oxycodone (the active

ingredient in OxyContin and OxyNorm) is a very powerful opiate!  A French study

concluded that, on a gram for gram basis, 100 mg of oxycodone packs the same

analgesic punch as about 150 mg of oral morphine (making oxycodone considerably

stronger than morphine); another study concluded that oxycodone is roughly

equianalgesic to diamorphine (heroin, which is a legal painkiller in the UK,

often used in the treatment of cancer pain and in palliative care contexts). 

Yes, you read that correctly – heroin (known to doctors as diamorphine) is a

legal drug in the UK when dispensed by doctors who know what they are doing, and

oxycodone is roughly equianalgesic to diamorphine.



I am lucky in that I have developed tolerance to oxycodone unusually slowly. 

Back in 1995, my daily dose of OxyContin was 80 mg twice daily.  Now, 14 years

later, my daily dose of OxyContin is 160 mg twice daily.  The development of

tolerance and the manifestation of withdrawal symptoms when an opiate or opioid

is abruptly discontinued are not indicative of addiction!  It was accepted

wisdom for a long time that tolerance and withdrawal were indicia of addiction –

pain management specialists now know that physiological dependence on an opiate

or opioid is not the same as addiction.  Addiction is diagnosed clinically in

terms of the behaviour of the patient and in terms of psychology: Does the

patient hoard drugs?  Does the patient engage in deceptive techniques to acquire

drugs (e.g. "doctor-shopping")?  Does the patient refuse to travel unless he can

bring his "stash" with him?  Does he engage in drug-seeking behaviour?  These

are now the issues that pain management specialists take into consideration when

determining whether nor not a patient is addicted.



The decision by the FDA advisory panel, if adopted by the FDA, could have tragic

consequences.  It is now well established that doctors in the USA are notorious

for undertreating chronic pain for fear of their patients becoming "drug

addicts".  The "war on drugs" has become enmeshed with the legitimate field of

pain management, to the extent that many doctors in the USA (about 25% of them)

don't even bother to order the triplicate prescription blanks required in order

to issue Schedule II prescriptions for drugs such as pure oxycodone, pure

codeine, pure morphine, etc.  Pain management specialists have coined the phrase

"opiophobia" to describe the attitude of so many doctors who do not specialize

in pain management.  Up until now, doctors in the USA have always been able to

fall back on Schedule III compound analgesics – e.g. Norco 10 / 325 (hydrocodone

mixed with APAP), Tylenol #3 with codeine, Vicoprofen (hydrocodone mixed with

ibuprofen), Darvocet (dextro-propoxyphene mixed with APAP), etc.  Schedule III

prescriptions are not tracked to the same extent as Schedule II prescriptions,

and doctors may issue up to five refills on all Schedule III prescriptions,

whereas they may not issue any refills on Schedule II prescriptions.  All

Schedule II prescriptions have to be written up on triplicate prescription

blanks, and a new prescription has to be written for each month's supply of the

medication in question.  Given the well-documented tendency of doctors in the

USA to undertreat chronic pain, I foresee a great sadness as those doctors who

previously issued prescriptions for medications such as Norco, Vicodin, Tylenol

#3, etc. simply stop issuing prescriptions for opioid / opiate analgesics,

leaving their patients to suffer with NSAIDs and drugs such as acetaminophen and

aspirin.



This is so typical of the reactionary and backwards mentality that informs the

"war on drugs" – Americans have a shocking tendency to confuse the abuse of a

drug with its legitimate usage.  The recent death of Michael Jackson has thrown

this issue into sharp relief – already, people are blaming OxyContin and

Demerol, instead of the dumb f—k who (allegedly) abused both of these drugs on a

daily basis.  Those patients who suffer from chronic pain and who need

aggressive treatment with mu-agonist opioids and opiates may now end up paying

the price for the crass stupidity of people such as Michael Jackson and Rush

Limbaugh (after his abuse of OxyContin, people started blaming OxyContin itself

for his addiction, instead of blaming the gasbag who blackmailed his maid and

who shovelled these tablets into his system as though they were pistachio nuts).

After Sonny Bono skiid into a tree whilst high on Vicodin, his wife blamed the

Vicodin for his accident, not the idiot who took to the slopes in a semi-stupor.

Doctors in the USA are already afraid of falling victim to overzealous D.E.A.

bureaucrats, who are uninhibited by wisdom, knowledge, or clinical experience

and who substitute their own judgment for that of physicians who have studied

medicine for seven or eight years before being permitted to prescribe!



Yes – some people abuse compound analgesics, mix them with alcohol, and damage

their livers – but it is generally not sound public policy to throw away an

entire class of drugs to accommodate the stupidity and ignorance of those

patients who abuse such drugs!



The situation in the UK is precisely the reverse of that in the USA.  Doctors in

the UK are entirely willing to prescribe powerful medications to those patients

who can document a legitimate medical need for such drugs.  I had a good and

caring doctor in New York City, and therefore never suffered the effects of

opiophobia first-hand – but I heard of a doctor in Oregon who was disciplined

for treating a terminally ill cancer patient with acetaminophen alone, for fear

of turning that patient into a "drug addict" (the doctor was forced, as a

condition of retention of his license to practice, to work side-by-side with a

pain management specialist)!  These are not isolated incidents in the USA. 

These tragedies occur with tragic frequency.  Fortunately, doctors in the UK

treat chronic pain seriously and have not confused the legitimate usage of

powerful opioids and opiates (including diamorphine!) with the abuse of such

medications.  I doubt very much that the UK would follow the USA's example

should the FDA adopt the recommendation of its advisory panel – but even were

the UK to do so, I don't believe that UK doctors would stop issuing powerful

opioids / opiates – instead of prescribing drugs such as Co-codamol, they would

probably write separate prescriptions for codeine and APAP; instead of writing

prescriptions for Co-dydramol, they would probably write separate prescriptions

for dihydrocodeine and APAP.



Sadly, the FDA usually follows the recommendations of its advisory panel. 

However, it does not have to do so, and there is still time to apply pressure on

the FDA (in the form of angry public comment) to put a stop to this madness

before it starts!



I very much hope that people will take this issue very, very seriously, and make

the necessary noise to derail this grotesque proposal.



Philip



From: PozHealth@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PozHealth@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

John Barrow

Sent: 03 July 2009 15:59

To: PozHealth@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [PozHealth] Re: Fw: NATAP: Ban Vicodin/Percocet-FDA Panel Recommends



"So the "solution" in reaction to people who take too much Acetaminophen is to

propose banning Percocet (Oxycodone) and Vicodin? To me this is another

knee-jerk reaction void of common sense. These pain-killers are invaluable to

many people. What will be next, Aspirin? Too much Aspirin can erode the stomach

lining."



Gary,



The thought is that "uncoupling" the two might lead to safer usage of the

agents, separately.  It would still be possible to combine the agents, but with

less convenience.



While NSAIDs have risks, Acetaminophen really has some safety problems,

especially when used with alcohol.    A real issue is that acetaminophen is

present as an ingredient in so many other agents that unintentional overdose is

pretty easy.



I have never seen acetaminophen sold with NAC in the UK or France, where I have

worked.



JB

Thanks for your second post, Philip.



I called Rich Degarmo at Degarmo's Compounding Pharmacy and relayed enough of

what you said that he agreed that his groups trying to get nandrolone made into

a schedule 2 was not a good idea and they will back off.



Thank you,



Michael Mooney

www.michaelmooney.net

www.medibolics.com

www.twitter.com/michaelkmooney

> So the "solution" in reaction to people who take too much

> Acetaminophen is to propose banning Percocet (Oxycodone) and

> Vicodin?  To me this is another knee-jerk reaction void of common

> sense.  These pain-killers are invaluable to many people.  What

> will be next, Aspirin?  Too much Aspirin can erode the stomach

> lining.



Acetaminophen/paracetamol even at the current recommended dose can cause

liver toxicity in some people, especially if taken over several days.

People with chronic hep B or C may be at greater risk (though studies

are mixed). But most drugs can cause severe side effects in some people

-- doesn't mean they should all be banned.



A lot of acetaminophen overdoses are suicide attempts, so selling it

with NAC wouldn't help, since those people wouldn't take the antidote. I

wonder if you could co-formulate acetaminophen with NAC, since it's not

harmful and lots of people use it as a supplement?



Others boost their dose of Vicodin or Percocet to get more of the

narcotic (either because the longer they use it, the more they need to

control pain, or sometimes for recreational use), and end up getting too

much acetaminophen in the process. If they can sell the combo by

prescription without being Schedule II, I don't see why they can't sell

hydrocodone alone, and then people who also wanted acetaminophen could

take it separately.



--

Liz Highleyman

Freelance journalist

liz@...

415-305-0821

Great thoughts.



It's only logical to sell hydrocodone alone, for full freedom to choose for the

doctor -- and the patient.



Michael Mooney



--- In PozHealth@yahoogroups.com, Liz Highleyman <liz@...> wrote:

>

> > So the "solution" in reaction to people who take too much

> > Acetaminophen is to propose banning Percocet (Oxycodone) and

> > Vicodin?  To me this is another knee-jerk reaction void of common

> > sense.  These pain-killers are invaluable to many people.  What

> > will be next, Aspirin?  Too much Aspirin can erode the stomach

> > lining.

>

> Acetaminophen/paracetamol even at the current recommended dose can cause

> liver toxicity in some people, especially if taken over several days.

> People with chronic hep B or C may be at greater risk (though studies

> are mixed). But most drugs can cause severe side effects in some people

> -- doesn't mean they should all be banned.

>

> A lot of acetaminophen overdoses are suicide attempts, so selling it

> with NAC wouldn't help, since those people wouldn't take the antidote. I

> wonder if you could co-formulate acetaminophen with NAC, since it's not

> harmful and lots of people use it as a supplement?

>

> Others boost their dose of Vicodin or Percocet to get more of the

> narcotic (either because the longer they use it, the more they need to

> control pain, or sometimes for recreational use), and end up getting too

> much acetaminophen in the process. If they can sell the combo by

> prescription without being Schedule II, I don't see why they can't sell

> hydrocodone alone, and then people who also wanted acetaminophen could

> take it separately.

>

> --

> Liz Highleyman

> Freelance journalist

> liz@...

> 415-305-0821

>