Hi folks, just joined today.  I'm looking for smaller dried soybeans
to make natto.  I tried once before with regular sized soybeans but
the flavor wasn't quite right as the fermentation did not penetrate
to the core of the soybean.  Then I tried running the beans lightly
with a food processor but it wasn't presentation grade material.

Does anyone know where to buy or order these little rascals?

Drew

Anybody have experience pickling veggies using fermented koji rice bran? From
what I understand the rice bran is fermented using the koji mold A. oryzae. Then
the vegetables are buried/layered in the fermented rice bran.  This is supposed
to give a sweeter taste instead of a typical vinegary taste.

I found a reference that said Japanese housewives kept a container of the koji
bran in the kitchen and would bury the fresh vegetables in the fermented bran
overnight to eat the next day.  I wonder if the modern Japanese housewives still
do that.

Darrell

Is it possible that the takeout boxes could be made from rice straw paper? 
Natto spores are extremely hardy and are found on rice straw in the wild.

I also would like to hear from anyone who has made natto using ADZUKI beans or
other beans.  The adzuki beans are supposed to be related to soybeans.

I may be thrown off this group  :)  but I heard that  natto can be made with
canned soybeans, bypassing the lengthy cooking process.

For what its worth I have put a squirt of dry natto spores in a cup of water and
drank it down.  Nothing untoward to report in the month afterward.

Darrell

Hi Beau, this is your friend in kefir, Dom, of Kefir_making. To put
in my 5 cents worth [the lowest denominator in our currency here in
the land of Oz].

It is important to keep tabs on humidity. Optimal humidity is between
70 to 85 %. Anything higher runs the risk of the mold not taking and
slime forming organisms, which may produce excess ammonia. Anything
lower and the correct mold-type will not proliferate.

I enjoy preparing [acidifying] and dehulling soybeans using the
traditional method. 3 parts of boiling water to 1 part dry soybeans
is soaked for some 16 hours. Foam forms on the surface to indicate
acidification. The beans are strained and placed in a wide bucket,
with a small amount of water. The beans are pounded under the bare
feet to remove the hulls. The bucket is filled with water and the
floating hulls are removed by pouring the water into another bucket,
fitted with a strainer over its mouth. The water is recycled to float
away the hulls in the previous bucket filled with beans.

The beans are cooked with enough fresh water to cover the beans by a
few inches, and simmered for 60 minutes at atmospheric pressure. The
beans a drained, and  placed over a large pre-ironed [to sterilize]
towel layered over a clean table top. Moister is removed by blowing
the beans with a fan for a few minutes, until the beans are just warm
to the touch, and dry. Tempeh mold spores [Rhizopus oligosporus] is
mixed in well with clean hands, and the inoculated beans are placed
in a suitable perforated packaging, such as Ziploc plastic bags or
containers, and incubated at 30 deg. C [86 F] for 22 to 24 hours,
depending on how much starter is added, and freshness of the starter.

The tempeh should be harvested when all the beans are covered with a
thick carpet of white mycelium. The beans should be bound together,
to form as a firm cake.

I am currently using "ragi tempe" [tempeh starter] which I received
from a friend in Jakarta, Indonesia. This is a commercial starter,
produced in Java, and it makes a wonderful tempeh. In fact, I have
tempe that was prepareed ealier today, marinating in kefir, red
fermented rice [to provide a delicate red colour, similar to Chinese
red peaking duck], rice malt, sufu [a fermented tofu of China] and
traditional organically produced soy sauce, with loads of garlic and
cilantro and an assortment of other fresh herbs.

This is mostly enjoyed cooked, by boiling the tempe with an amount of
marinade in a heavy iron skillett, until the marinade is reduced. The
cooked tempe melts in the mouth, due to the length it's marinaded
for, in the high proteolytic enzyme rich marinade. The marinade is
recycled to the next batch of fresh tempe [with extra kefir added to
prevent unfavorable organisms in the next batch-bath].

Be-well,
Dom



--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, "Beau Barrett"  wrote:

>  Hi,
>  Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters
> from Gemcultures.com.
>  Tried the Tempeh, Quite the task without a grain mill to de-hull
> the beans, but it was good, better than store bought for sure.
>  I made the mistake of stacking two of the bags and they overheated
> and did not mold, but instead smelled of ammonia and were slimy.
>   Anyone try making Tempeh?
> I'm curious about the ideal cooking time for the beans and do you
> use vinegar? Do you rinse the beans after soaking or cooking?
> I will try Natto next, higher incubation temp but no need to de-
hull.
>  Holler back if you have ever tried any of these.
> I intend to make a batch of light rice koji for making amazake too.
> Seems that it needs to incubate 2 1/2 days, I'll need a thermostat
> for my ice chest incubator before I take on that one.
> Just the group we need!
> Take Care,
>  Beau Barrett
> Pioneer, Ca

I am the owner of the Kimchi group and I only remember members asking clarifying
questions.  No one (to my recollection) was disrespectful towards you

Staci

Did not mean this literally. I inserted a (grin) .....

Was meant in the Rodney Daingerfield vein of "I can't get no respect".

Make natto any dang way ya want. Go buy all the natto cultures ya want. Most
replies to my original natto post were unjustly concerned about being hurt by
bacteria. Just my opinion, OK.


Dan







   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Staci Doctor
   To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:19 PM
   Subject: Re: [MN] natto making


   Fig,

   I am the owner of the Kimchi group and I only remember members asking
clarifying questions.  No one (to my recollection) was disrespectful towards you

   Staci
   ######################################################################
   fig227 <fig227@...> wrote:

   I posted this to the kimchi group but all I got was disrespect (grin)




















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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John,
  If you can buy soybeans anywhere (bulk section of the supermarket) I get
mine at Raley's.
You can make your own with a starter culture from.
www.gemcultures.com
There might be an online source to order some prepared natto, I'm not sure.
Have you tried it before?
Beau B.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <jbjet2@...>
To: <Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [MN] natto making



Hi,

I live in a rural area and would have to drive hours to find someplace to
buy prepared natto.  Does anyone know of a place to mail order natto
on-line?

John

Allan Balliett <igg@...> wrote:
Sorry to be dense - is there no innoculant needed for natto? -Allan


>
>     Wash mature dry soybeans, soak overnight in 10 cups water
>
>Drain and discard water. In a deep pot (not
>pressure cooker) add beans and water to cover by
>1.5". Bring to boil on medium flame and half
>cover. Turn to low flame and cook about 30
>minutes. When foam reduces, cover and simmer 4-5
>hours, until beans are tender. Crush one bean
>between thumb and fingers to check for
>tenderness. Do not stir or beans will break.
>Broken beans reduce the fermentation.
>
>Strain liquid and save for use in clear or miso
>soup. Place one cup of the hot soybeans in each
>one pint Chinese take out container. Fold in the
>covers and place all the filled containers in a
>large double paper bag (supermarket). Close up
>the bag. Tie with string. Place in the oven.
>Oven should be around 98° -104° Fahrenheit or
>the heat of the pilot light only. Do not turn
>the oven any higher. (Do not use oven for any
>other purpose while making natto) Leave the
>soybeans in oven for 3 nights. Remove after the
>3rd night ... should be ready.
>
>If you cook a larger quantity of beans, it is
>necessary to stack the containers on top of one
>another. After second night switch the bottom to
>the top and vice versa. Let them stay another
>full day.
>
>Open the container covers and let natto cool.
>Depending on your oven and the season, your
>natto may over ferment. If there is ammonia in
>the smell, remove all natto from containers and
>spread out for half a day in a cool place. The
>smell will evaporate and the good smell will
>return.
>
>Finished product has a dark tan color and the
>beans retain shape but are covered by stringy
>substance. Natto can be kept frozen for 1 or 2
>months and refrigerated for about one week


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Hi Allan,
  What a bunch of duds...Is Tokyo even a good place to find Natto rolls?
Wow, natto in WV I live in Ca and have never seen it anywhere.
You can order the natto bacillus and tempeh starter along with lots of other
neat culture starters from www.gemcultures.com. Like Koji for making shoyu,
miso, sake, etc. They don't do online ordering, you need to print one of their
order forms and send them a Check or money order. I got my package within a week
of sending the order. They are in Fort Bragg.
You can call them and talk to a nice lady named Betty.
I ordered some of each of the Koji's, tempeh, and natto, plus a few plastic lids
that fit onto canning jars for about 25.00
It seems that preparing the Koji will prove to be the most challenging.
  Hope you give it try.
Beau B.


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jim Cunningham
   To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 6:22 AM
   Subject: [MN] Re: New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?



   Hey - where did you get your tempeh starter? Where are you getting your NATTO
starter?
   Man, I was at a SUSHI bar in SONOMA last night and asked for natto rolls and
they told me
   GO TO TOKYO FOR THAT! I couldn't believe it! I can get Natto in my home town
in WV!!
   -Allan




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-thanks for the recipe,
I have never had, and never made Natto
Pam-- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, John <jbjet2@y...>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I live in a rural area and would have to drive hours to find
someplace to buy prepared natto.  Does anyone know of a place to
mail order natto on-line?
>
> John
>
> Allan Balliett <igg@i...> wrote:
> Sorry to be dense - is there no innoculant needed for natto? -Allan
>
>
> >
> >     Wash mature dry soybeans, soak overnight in 10 cups water
> >
> >Drain and discard water. In a deep pot (not
> >pressure cooker) add beans and water to cover by
> >1.5". Bring to boil on medium flame and half
> >cover. Turn to low flame and cook about 30
> >minutes. When foam reduces, cover and simmer 4-5
> >hours, until beans are tender. Crush one bean
> >between thumb and fingers to check for
> >tenderness. Do not stir or beans will break.
> >Broken beans reduce the fermentation.
> >
> >Strain liquid and save for use in clear or miso
> >soup. Place one cup of the hot soybeans in each
> >one pint Chinese take out container. Fold in the
> >covers and place all the filled containers in a
> >large double paper bag (supermarket). Close up
> >the bag. Tie with string. Place in the oven.
> >Oven should be around 98° -104° Fahrenheit or
> >the heat of the pilot light only. Do not turn
> >the oven any higher. (Do not use oven for any
> >other purpose while making natto) Leave the
> >soybeans in oven for 3 nights. Remove after the
> >3rd night ... should be ready.
> >
> >If you cook a larger quantity of beans, it is
> >necessary to stack the containers on top of one
> >another. After second night switch the bottom to
> >the top and vice versa. Let them stay another
> >full day.
> >
> >Open the container covers and let natto cool.
> >Depending on your oven and the season, your
> >natto may over ferment. If there is ammonia in
> >the smell, remove all natto from containers and
> >spread out for half a day in a cool place. The
> >smell will evaporate and the good smell will
> >return.
> >
> >Finished product has a dark tan color and the
> >beans retain shape but are covered by stringy
> >substance. Natto can be kept frozen for 1 or 2
> >months and refrigerated for about one week
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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>
>
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,
  I remember your post, and I don't believe that anyone meant any disrespect. I
don't recall if you mentioned using the storebought natto for innoculant the
first time and it made some folks ask questions.
I do think that when there is the option of using a pure starter rather than
some of a previous batch or from the store, it is more appealing and can tend to
have better results.But we use what is convenient at the time right?
  I'm sure we all trust that your method works. Thanks for getting in on this
natto action.
I make natto in rectangular glass dish. I use bacillus natto spores that I
ordered from www.gemcultures.com
I have reserched all of the natto recipes I could find and the main guidelines
seem to be:
1-Soaked and well cooked beans. Some say to pressure steam them, some say to
simmer them 6 hrs or more. Warnings of soybean hulls clogging the vent of a
pressure cooker, pressure boiling is not recommended.
2-Some form of bacillus natto (rice straw, pure spores, storebought natto
package, previous batch)
3-Covered container (I put foil over my dish and poke holes in it).
3-Incubation @ 104F for 8-24 hrs, depending on how strong you like it, stronger
is healthier.
4-Some say to age it in the refrigerator for 1 week. It seems to become more
stringy and the enzymes break down the protiens further into amino acids.
5- Be as clean as possible when preparing.
I don't have an oven so I have converted my coleman camping cooler into an
incubator.
I used an electric seedling warming mat connected to a dimmer switch. I use a
rack that holds the food above the mat  Then I have a digital indoor/outdoor
thermometer that has a remote sensor connected to a wire, I place the sensor at
the level of the food.
It would be nice if there was a thermostat, because I usually have to adjust it
during the cold and hot parts of the day.
  NATTO NATTO
Beau B.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: fig227
   To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 7:22 AM
   Subject: [MN] natto making



   I posted this to the kimchi group but all I got was disrespect (grin)

   1-The frozen natto in oriental stores is a good enough starter. You can add
some to the recipe below. 50% of the packet will do the trick.

   2- Here is  a great natto recipe from Cornelia Aihara who has been making
natto for at least 40 years. I ate her natto many times and have made it this
way. I have seen her make it this way. Use a 15-25 watt light bulb in an
electric oven (no pilot light) Crack open the door if too warm in oven

   _______________



   NATTO BY CORNELIA AIHARA


   FROM THE BOOK  "DO OF COOKING" BY CORNELIA AIHARA



   INGREDIENTS:

   6 ONE PINT PAPER CONTAINERS

   (USED FOR CHINESE TAKE OUT)

   3 CUPS SOYBEANS

   10 CUPS WATER

   _______________________________________________



       Wash mature dry soybeans, soak overnight in 10 cups water

   Drain and discard water. In a deep pot (not pressure cooker) add beans and
water to cover by 1.5". Bring to boil on medium flame and half cover. Turn to
low flame and cook about 30 minutes. When foam reduces, cover and simmer 4-5
hours, until beans are tender. Crush one bean between thumb and fingers to check
for tenderness. Do not stir or beans will break. Broken beans reduce the
fermentation.

   Strain liquid and save for use in clear or miso soup. Place one cup of the hot
soybeans in each one pint Chinese take out container. Fold in the covers and
place all the filled containers in a large double paper bag (supermarket). Close
up the bag. Tie with string. Place in the oven. Oven should be around 98° -104°
Fahrenheit or the heat of the pilot light only. Do not turn the oven any higher.
(Do not use oven for any other purpose while making natto) Leave the soybeans in
oven for 3 nights. Remove after the 3rd night ... should be ready.

   If you cook a larger quantity of beans, it is necessary to stack the
containers on top of one another. After second night switch the bottom to the
top and vice versa. Let them stay another full day.

   Open the container covers and let natto cool. Depending on your oven and the
season, your natto may over ferment. If there is ammonia in the smell, remove
all natto from containers and spread out for half a day in a cool place. The
smell will evaporate and the good smell will return.

   Finished product has a dark tan color and the beans retain shape but are
covered by stringy substance. Natto can be kept frozen for 1 or 2 months and
refrigerated for about one week

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Fig,
>
> I am the owner of the Kimchi group and I only remember members asking
> clarifying questions.  No one (to my recollection) was disrespectful towards
> you
>
> Staci
> ######################################################################
> fig227 <fig227@...> wrote:
>
> I posted this to the kimchi group but all I got was disrespect (grin)


I think Fig was making a sly joke because natto is so... what's the
word...  "unique"....  Most people like or don't mind kimchi, but
natto splits the human race into two very clear-cut halves...  When I
first tried it many years ago at a Japanese restaurant, I wasn't just
disgusted; I was ready to become an anti-natto activist with bumper
stickers and t-shirts, and lobby congress to rid our country of this
menace to all the values we hold dear, etc...   Something like that...
  (just joking of course)....  But definitely the most offensive food
experience I've ever had.... That was before I got into NT and all
this stuff...   Now I even eat bugs and raw organs meats...
LOL

Actually, this reminds me of something I found recently, a site that
sells "got natto?" and "I love natto" t-shirts, etc.   Some of their
other "messages" are a little sketchy (typical soy/vegetarian kind of
thing) though.
http://www.rotemdesignstudio.com/cgi-bin/store/cpshop.cgi/natto
I have to admit it's very tempting to wear a "got natto?" t-shirt!

Mike Parker
SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

Hi,

I live in a rural area and would have to drive hours to find someplace to buy
prepared natto.  Does anyone know of a place to mail order natto on-line?

John

Allan Balliett <igg@...> wrote:
Sorry to be dense - is there no innoculant needed for natto? -Allan


>
>     Wash mature dry soybeans, soak overnight in 10 cups water
>
>Drain and discard water. In a deep pot (not
>pressure cooker) add beans and water to cover by
>1.5". Bring to boil on medium flame and half
>cover. Turn to low flame and cook about 30
>minutes. When foam reduces, cover and simmer 4-5
>hours, until beans are tender. Crush one bean
>between thumb and fingers to check for
>tenderness. Do not stir or beans will break.
>Broken beans reduce the fermentation.
>
>Strain liquid and save for use in clear or miso
>soup. Place one cup of the hot soybeans in each
>one pint Chinese take out container. Fold in the
>covers and place all the filled containers in a
>large double paper bag (supermarket). Close up
>the bag. Tie with string. Place in the oven.
>Oven should be around 98° -104° Fahrenheit or
>the heat of the pilot light only. Do not turn
>the oven any higher. (Do not use oven for any
>other purpose while making natto) Leave the
>soybeans in oven for 3 nights. Remove after the
>3rd night ... should be ready.
>
>If you cook a larger quantity of beans, it is
>necessary to stack the containers on top of one
>another. After second night switch the bottom to
>the top and vice versa. Let them stay another
>full day.
>
>Open the container covers and let natto cool.
>Depending on your oven and the season, your
>natto may over ferment. If there is ammonia in
>the smell, remove all natto from containers and
>spread out for half a day in a cool place. The
>smell will evaporate and the good smell will
>return.
>
>Finished product has a dark tan color and the
>beans retain shape but are covered by stringy
>substance. Natto can be kept frozen for 1 or 2
>months and refrigerated for about one week


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for creating this group. Very goood idea.  Georgi

Fig,

I am the owner of the Kimchi group and I only remember members asking clarifying
questions.  No one (to my recollection) was disrespectful towards you

Staci
######################################################################
fig227 <fig227@...> wrote:

I posted this to the kimchi group but all I got was disrespect (grin)




















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@@@@@@@
> > I haven't made kvass or beet kvass yet. I would like to have input
> > from experienced fermenters about recipes, etc.
> >
> > Rachel
>
> I too would like to hear about kvass techniques. Kvass is one of my
> all-time favorite fermented food!
>
> A big thank-you to Mike for setting up this group. It holds great promise!
>
> Tom
@@@@@@

Hi Tom,
As I well remember you as "the cool guy from Wisconsin" and WI is so
close to two areas I associate with kvass in my mind, Canada and
Chicago, due to concentrated Eastern European populations (but I'm not
really sure about that), I have to ask you whether kvass is something
you see around in stores a lot in your area?    I've never gone
kvass-hunting around here, but I have a local Amish farmer friend who
produces and distributes a variety of NT-friendly foods, and he gets
"authentic kvass" in 2 liter plastic bottles from All Stars Bakery in
Ontario, Canada.   I've tried some in small samples, and it's pleasant
enough, but I'm something of a teetotaller, so I've never swug enough
to get intimate with the flavor.   I've never tried beer before, so
would you say the flavor is similar?  I was thinking about trying to
share some of that kvass with friends for their fun and possible entry
to consumption of a healthy food.  I'm wondering if it would go over
well with gourmet beer types?   It's quite inexpensive.   This local
guy sells the 2 liter bottles for $3 I think.

I've made beet kvass a few times following the NT recipe, using whey,
but only a fraction of the salt recommended because I'm in the "NT is
too salty" school of thought despite using Celtic Sea Salt for
everything.  It seemed to be a very easy ferment to succeed with, and
it was a pleasant flavor, but not something to get excited about.   I
did get the white mold on the top one time though.  I remember folks
on one of the lists reporting success making beet kvass with no whey
and no salt, just chopping up the beets and putting them in the water.
   I guess that takes a little finesse just like salt-free sauerkraut.
I always kick myself for not making beet kvass more often when beets
are in season, because it's so darn easy!

Has anyone ever tried putting other stuff in beet kvass to make the
flavor more appealing?   Maybe spices like cinnamon?  That could be an
area for fun experimentation.

Mike Parker
SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

Sorry to be dense - is there no innoculant needed for natto? -Allan


>
>     Wash mature dry soybeans, soak overnight in 10 cups water
>
>Drain and discard water. In a deep pot (not
>pressure cooker) add beans and water to cover by
>1.5". Bring to boil on medium flame and half
>cover. Turn to low flame and cook about 30
>minutes. When foam reduces, cover and simmer 4-5
>hours, until beans are tender. Crush one bean
>between thumb and fingers to check for
>tenderness. Do not stir or beans will break.
>Broken beans reduce the fermentation.
>
>Strain liquid and save for use in clear or miso
>soup. Place one cup of the hot soybeans in each
>one pint Chinese take out container. Fold in the
>covers and place all the filled containers in a
>large double paper bag (supermarket). Close up
>the bag. Tie with string. Place in the oven.
>Oven should be around 98° -104° Fahrenheit or
>the heat of the pilot light only. Do not turn
>the oven any higher. (Do not use oven for any
>other purpose while making natto) Leave the
>soybeans in oven for 3 nights. Remove after the
>3rd night ... should be ready.
>
>If you cook a larger quantity of beans, it is
>necessary to stack the containers on top of one
>another. After second night switch the bottom to
>the top and vice versa. Let them stay another
>full day.
>
>Open the container covers and let natto cool.
>Depending on your oven and the season, your
>natto may over ferment. If there is ammonia in
>the smell, remove all natto from containers and
>spread out for half a day in a cool place. The
>smell will evaporate and the good smell will
>return.
>
>Finished product has a dark tan color and the
>beans retain shape but are covered by stringy
>substance. Natto can be kept frozen for 1 or 2
>months and refrigerated for about one week


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I posted this to the kimchi group but all I got was disrespect (grin)

1-The frozen natto in oriental stores is a good enough starter. You can add some
to the recipe below. 50% of the packet will do the trick.

2- Here is  a great natto recipe from Cornelia Aihara who has been making natto
for at least 40 years. I ate her natto many times and have made it this way. I
have seen her make it this way. Use a 15-25 watt light bulb in an electric oven
(no pilot light) Crack open the door if too warm in oven

_______________



NATTO BY CORNELIA AIHARA


FROM THE BOOK  "DO OF COOKING" BY CORNELIA AIHARA



INGREDIENTS:

6 ONE PINT PAPER CONTAINERS

(USED FOR CHINESE TAKE OUT)

3 CUPS SOYBEANS

10 CUPS WATER

_______________________________________________



     Wash mature dry soybeans, soak overnight in 10 cups water

Drain and discard water. In a deep pot (not pressure cooker) add beans and water
to cover by 1.5". Bring to boil on medium flame and half cover. Turn to low
flame and cook about 30 minutes. When foam reduces, cover and simmer 4-5 hours,
until beans are tender. Crush one bean between thumb and fingers to check for
tenderness. Do not stir or beans will break. Broken beans reduce the
fermentation.

Strain liquid and save for use in clear or miso soup. Place one cup of the hot
soybeans in each one pint Chinese take out container. Fold in the covers and
place all the filled containers in a large double paper bag (supermarket). Close
up the bag. Tie with string. Place in the oven. Oven should be around 98° -104°
Fahrenheit or the heat of the pilot light only. Do not turn the oven any higher.
(Do not use oven for any other purpose while making natto) Leave the soybeans in
oven for 3 nights. Remove after the 3rd night ... should be ready.

If you cook a larger quantity of beans, it is necessary to stack the containers
on top of one another. After second night switch the bottom to the top and vice
versa. Let them stay another full day.

Open the container covers and let natto cool. Depending on your oven and the
season, your natto may over ferment. If there is ammonia in the smell, remove
all natto from containers and spread out for half a day in a cool place. The
smell will evaporate and the good smell will return.

Finished product has a dark tan color and the beans retain shape but are covered
by stringy substance. Natto can be kept frozen for 1 or 2 months and
refrigerated for about one week







   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Jim Cunningham
   To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 9:22 AM
   Subject: [MN] Re: New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?



   Hey - where did you get your tempeh starter? Where are you getting your NATTO
starter?
   Man, I was at a SUSHI bar in SONOMA last night and asked for natto rolls and
they told me
   GO TO TOKYO FOR THAT! I couldn't believe it! I can get Natto in my home town
in WV!!
   -Allan




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey - where did you get your tempeh starter? Where are you getting your NATTO
starter?
Man, I was at a SUSHI bar in SONOMA last night and asked for natto rolls and
they told me
GO TO TOKYO FOR THAT! I couldn't believe it! I can get Natto in my home town in
WV!!
-Allan

--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, "Rachel Adler"
<wapriceisright@y...> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm the Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader for Vancouver, B.C.
> Canada, and I'm so happy that this group was created!
>
> I haven't made kvass or beet kvass yet. I would like to have input
> from experienced fermenters about recipes, etc.
>
> Rachel

I too would like to hear about kvass techniques. Kvass is one of my
all-time favorite fermented food!

A big thank-you to Mike for setting up this group. It holds great promise!

Tom

Hello everyone,

I'm the Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader for Vancouver, B.C.
Canada, and I'm so happy that this group was created!

I haven't made kvass or beet kvass yet. I would like to have input
from experienced fermenters about recipes, etc.

Rachel

Yahoo Groups has a 200 word maximum for the group description that
appears on the home page.   This is a longer and more satisfactory
group description.

Mike Parker
SE Pennsylvania

The best way to predict the future is to invent it. --Alan Kay

-----------------------------------------------

Fermented Foods. Probiotics. Gut Health.

Microbial Nutrition is a food and nutrition group to discuss the role
of food microbes in health and gourmet pleasure.  The idea is to have
a unified and focused forum for a very clearly defined topic instead
of taking up a disproportionate amount of bandwidth on more general
forums (Native-Nutriton, Live-Food, etc) or awkwardly subdividing the
topic on even more specialized groups (Kimchi-Sauerkraut-Cabbage,
EM_Health, Kefir_Making, kombucha groups, etc).  This group is not
meant to replace any of these excellent groups, but rather augment
them as a more comfortable forum for certain topics and types of
discussions.  This group might also serve as a way to alleviate the
problem of OT non-dairy posts on lists like RawDairy and
Kefir_Making.  Hopefully this group will allow people who are really
interested in this topic to dig in without feeling bad about straying
too far outside the boundaries of other lists.

Example topics:

-Fermented vegetables
-Pickled vegetables
-Fermented grains and legumes (e.g. sourdough, miso, natto)
-Japanese rice-bran fermentation
-Comparisons between food preservation methods
-Salt-free fermentation
-Fermented land meats and water meats (fish)
-History of fermented foods
-Lactic Acid
-Yeast
-Molds (good and bad)
-Koji ferments
-Vinegar
-Kombucha
-Water Kefir
-SCOBYs
-Effective Microorganisms (EM)
-Anti-oxidant properties of fermented foods
-Phototropic bacteria
-Soil-based microorganisms
-Microbes as nutrients
-Vitamin production and loss in fermented foods
-Anti-nutrient reduction and creation in fermented foods
-Vitamin K2 (menaquinone-7)
-The microbial aspects of raw meat and eggs
-High meats
-Microbial nutrition before humans started fermenting foods
-GI microflora, parasites
-Probiotics
-Prebiotics
-Traditional fermented grain and fruit beverages

Certainly food preservation and probiotics/GI ecology can be totally
unrelated topics, but they both arise very naturally during
discussions of fermented foods, so they are both welcomed as topics
for this list.  They can be seen as two vectors from a "fermented
foods" prototype.

Since fermented dairy foods are so heavily covered already by
RawDairy, Kefir_Making, Real_Kefir_Making, and possibly cheese groups
(which I'm not familiar with), and that's such a huge and clearly
defined topic, this list is tentatively offered with an "everything
but dairy" scope, but there's no reason to be strict about this, and
discussion of kefir, viili, yogurt, koumiss, whey, cheese, etc is
encouraged as it relates to more theoretical topics in microbial
nutrition.   On the other hand, topics like "how do I strain my
kefir?", "how can I rig up the right temperature for my
yogurt?", "what kind of cheese press is best?" are perfect for
existing groups, where people have committed interests in fermented
dairy.  There will be people (like me), who are into dairy and who
will want to simultaneously use both this group and one or more of
the dairy groups, but there will also be people whose fermented food
interests are limited to, say, kefir, and will be better served by an
existing group, or people who have have no interest in dairy for
various common reasons (intolerances, unavailability, etc), and might
not want to deal with the massive volume of posts that could easily
result from the massive topic of fermented dairy, as demonstrated
historically by the aforementioned groups.   This the only subdivison
of microbial nutrition that is proposed to be practical, realistic,
and acknowledge the current state of email communities.   We'll have
to see how it goes and stay open to reconsideration of this
division.  For the topic of kefir, there is Dom's famous and thorough
website (kefir.notlong.com) and the archives of the aforementioned
dairy groups.  For the topic of yogurt, well, make kefir :-)

This group welcomes both very practical and very theoretical topics,
and everything in between.

It's hoped that a full range from expert scientists to clueless
newbies will use this list for sharing, learning, and consolidating
knowledge, with an aim towards creating a well-organized archive that
will make it easy for newbies to get thorough answers right away and
keep the "oldies" happy enough to explore new frontiers!   Towards
this end, please always use accurate subject lines with lots of
keywords!  Also, summary posts and usage of the "files" section on
the homepage is strongly encouraged!

Hey guys,
  So I embarked on the natto mission. Whoa! what an interesting food.
I have read much about the stickiness and stinkiness of this culture
food of asia. Now I have tasted it and understand.
  I tried a small serving the first day after it was done and decided
it was the weirdest food I have ever eaten.(Nice,I like weird!)
Nutty with a hint of ammonia...
I ate some with eggs mustard and soy sauce the first time, and it
was just too weird to enjoy, but I got it down. Yesterday I ate some
straight but with soy sauce and mustard mixed in and I sort of
enjoyed it. I'm starting slowly because the experience of eating it
the first time made me a little queasy and I want introduce my
senses gradually so I don't over do it and never want to eat natto
again.  I hear that chopped green onions, (hot?)mustard and soy
sauce are the traditional additives.
I read that "aging" in the refrigerator for 3-5 days makes the natto
more stringy, after two days it seems to be.
  I got the 104F degree incubation off to a good start for the first
few hours but then the power went out for most of the second half of
the 24 hr incubation period and the temp dropped below 95F. The
natto was not very stringy or darkened only slightly, but the smell
was there so I believe that I got a "milder" version. The directions
I got said that you could incubate for 6-8 hrs for a milder natto or
12-24 hrs for a more traditional natto.
  Anyone ever try making it, any tips or suggestions?

Beau B.

From: mark robert

To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 12:13 AM

Subject: RE: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

Not organic, just field soybeans from the great Midwest. But I think the roasted ones ARE organic. How about 40 pounds? What’s your zip and I’ll figure shipping. Like I said I got loads of the stuff, literally. I’ll go check out your site.

 

I heard some similar stuff about Natto, all good. I say bring it on too. I can eat virtually anything and like it. I always laugh when I see Fear Factor and watch those big macho dudes loosing on the weird food challenge. I think someone should start a theme restaurant based on weird foods.

 

You guys need any junk lab glass. I may have access to some.

 

-mark

 

 

******************************
The active misidentification of evil
is the worst kind of evil.
-MRN

---

From: Beau & Shani [mailto:evolvingcreations@...]
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:59 PM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

  Hey Mark,

 I would surely be interested in obtaining some soybeans from you. Do you grow organically? Do you grow the smaller Natto variety?

Either way I would be interested, let me know the details- price per pound, shipping cost etc. If you want to do some kind of trade that's cool too.

My girlfriend and I make lampwork glass beads and I can make other functional glass items like small vials, bottles etc.

Here's our website www.evolvingcreations.com

I have been reading about the rather amazing benefits of Natto, seems like awesome stuff, though it seems that the general consensus is that it's stinky and is an aquired taste. I say bring it on, I always like to try the weirdest thing on the menu and Nato seems to rate high on the weird list. There is even an enzyme supplement called Nattokinase that is derived from Natto, stuff costs like $30 a bottle.

I'll report my results as soon as I finish a batch. Since Natto Bacillus can survive boiling temps for up to 10 min. (It incubates at 104F) I don't think I'll have overheating issues with that.

Beau

 

----- Original Message -----

From: mark robert

To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

Beau,

 

Thanks for the info. I should try making some. I remember when I eat it, it always seems to digest really well – and that’s so rare for me.

 

I would soak my roasted beans first; yes, they do need to be moist.

 

You need any more soybeans? We grow them.

 

-Mark

 

 

******************************
The active misidentification of evil
is the worst kind of evil.
-MRN

---

From: Beau & Shani [mailto:evolvingcreations@...]
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:11 PM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

Mark,

 I did try a second batch, this time I spaced the bags better and did not stack any. They all turned out great after 24 hours at about 85-90 degrees. It's tough to keep a steady temp without a thermostat though. I was waking up all night to check, a bit nutty.

 If I had room I would bring home an old refrigerator to use as an incubator (free at the appliance store), but for now I have to use a coleman cooler and do smaller 1 pound batches.

 An enclosed waterbath method is described on one commercial research site where stainless steel trays are filled with the partially cooked beans and a jet of air bubbles up through water and escapes on the other end. Seems cool, maybe an aquarium heater in my cooler would work well.

There is something called a "Family Grain Mill" available online, that you can set to simply crack the beans, then you can just skim the hulls from the surface of the water when cooking. It costs about a hundred bucks. I'm not sure how you would use the roasted beans because the moisture retained by the beans from the boiling or steaming process is necessary for the mold to grow.

 Natto bacillus terminate the phytotoxins in soybeans also.

I got my soybeans from the bulk whole food section at Raleys

Beau

Pioneer, Ca

----- Original Message -----

From: mark robert

To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:51 AM

Subject: RE: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

I’ve never made tempeh, but I’ve heard it can easily overheat. I read something somewhere about making it in water as a coolant somehow. I also know that it is one of the few (only one?) soy prods with no phytotoxins; the fungus destroys them. I think there’s a book called The Book Of Tempeh. There may be a way around the dehulling; I plan to try to make it out of pre-roasted soynuts (I have access to loads) – I suspect the roasting renders the hulls harmless to the fungus growth.

 

 

******************************
The active misidentification of evil
is the worst kind of evil.
-MRN

---

From: Beau Barrett [mailto:evolvingcreations@...]
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:16 AM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

• 
  Hi,
  Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters
  from Gemcultures.com.
  Tried the Tempeh, Quite the task without a grain mill to de-hull
  the beans, but it was good, better than store bought for sure.
  I made the mistake of stacking two of the bags and they overheated
  and did not mold, but instead smelled of ammonia and were slimy.
    Anyone try making Tempeh?
  I'm curious about the ideal cooking time for the beans and do you
  use vinegar? Do you rinse the beans after soaking or cooking?
  I will try Natto next, higher incubation temp but no need to de-hull.
  Holler back if you have ever tried any of these.
  I intend to make a batch of light rice koji for making amazake too.
  Seems that it needs to incubate 2 1/2 days, I'll need a thermostat
  for my ice chest incubator before I take on that one.
  Just the group we need!
  Take Care,
  Beau Barrett
  Pioneer, Ca
  
  
  
  .

----- Original Message -----

From: mark robert

To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:29 PM

Subject: RE: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

Beau,

 

Thanks for the info. I should try making some. I remember when I eat it, it always seems to digest really well – and that’s so rare for me.

 

I would soak my roasted beans first; yes, they do need to be moist.

 

You need any more soybeans? We grow them.

 

-Mark

 

 

******************************
The active misidentification of evil
is the worst kind of evil.
-MRN

---

From: Beau & Shani [mailto:evolvingcreations@...]
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:11 PM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

Mark,

 I did try a second batch, this time I spaced the bags better and did not stack any. They all turned out great after 24 hours at about 85-90 degrees. It's tough to keep a steady temp without a thermostat though. I was waking up all night to check, a bit nutty.

 If I had room I would bring home an old refrigerator to use as an incubator (free at the appliance store), but for now I have to use a coleman cooler and do smaller 1 pound batches.

 An enclosed waterbath method is described on one commercial research site where stainless steel trays are filled with the partially cooked beans and a jet of air bubbles up through water and escapes on the other end. Seems cool, maybe an aquarium heater in my cooler would work well.

There is something called a "Family Grain Mill" available online, that you can set to simply crack the beans, then you can just skim the hulls from the surface of the water when cooking. It costs about a hundred bucks. I'm not sure how you would use the roasted beans because the moisture retained by the beans from the boiling or steaming process is necessary for the mold to grow.

 Natto bacillus terminate the phytotoxins in soybeans also.

I got my soybeans from the bulk whole food section at Raleys

Beau

Pioneer, Ca

----- Original Message -----

From: mark robert

To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:51 AM

Subject: RE: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

I’ve never made tempeh, but I’ve heard it can easily overheat. I read something somewhere about making it in water as a coolant somehow. I also know that it is one of the few (only one?) soy prods with no phytotoxins; the fungus destroys them. I think there’s a book called The Book Of Tempeh. There may be a way around the dehulling; I plan to try to make it out of pre-roasted soynuts (I have access to loads) – I suspect the roasting renders the hulls harmless to the fungus growth.

 

 

******************************
The active misidentification of evil
is the worst kind of evil.
-MRN

---

From: Beau Barrett [mailto:evolvingcreations@...]
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:16 AM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

• 
  Hi,
  Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters
  from Gemcultures.com.
  Tried the Tempeh, Quite the task without a grain mill to de-hull
  the beans, but it was good, better than store bought for sure.
  I made the mistake of stacking two of the bags and they overheated
  and did not mold, but instead smelled of ammonia and were slimy.
    Anyone try making Tempeh?
  I'm curious about the ideal cooking time for the beans and do you
  use vinegar? Do you rinse the beans after soaking or cooking?
  I will try Natto next, higher incubation temp but no need to de-hull.
  Holler back if you have ever tried any of these.
  I intend to make a batch of light rice koji for making amazake too.
  Seems that it needs to incubate 2 1/2 days, I'll need a thermostat
  for my ice chest incubator before I take on that one.
  Just the group we need!
  Take Care,
  Beau Barrett
  Pioneer, Ca
  
  
  
  .

----- Original Message -----

From: mark robert

To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 8:51 AM

Subject: RE: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

I’ve never made tempeh, but I’ve heard it can easily overheat. I read something somewhere about making it in water as a coolant somehow. I also know that it is one of the few (only one?) soy prods with no phytotoxins; the fungus destroys them. I think there’s a book called The Book Of Tempeh. There may be a way around the dehulling; I plan to try to make it out of pre-roasted soynuts (I have access to loads) – I suspect the roasting renders the hulls harmless to the fungus growth.

 

 

******************************
The active misidentification of evil
is the worst kind of evil.
-MRN

---

From: Beau Barrett [mailto:evolvingcreations@...]
Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 12:16 AM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

 

• 
  Hi,
  Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters
  from Gemcultures.com.
  Tried the Tempeh, Quite the task without a grain mill to de-hull
  the beans, but it was good, better than store bought for sure.
  I made the mistake of stacking two of the bags and they overheated
  and did not mold, but instead smelled of ammonia and were slimy.
    Anyone try making Tempeh?
  I'm curious about the ideal cooking time for the beans and do you
  use vinegar? Do you rinse the beans after soaking or cooking?
  I will try Natto next, higher incubation temp but no need to de-hull.
  Holler back if you have ever tried any of these.
  I intend to make a batch of light rice koji for making amazake too.
  Seems that it needs to incubate 2 1/2 days, I'll need a thermostat
  for my ice chest incubator before I take on that one.
  Just the group we need!
  Take Care,
  Beau Barrett
  Pioneer, Ca
  
  
  
  .

----- Original Message -----

From: Bruce Stordock

To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 6:13 AM

Subject: Re: [MN] New to group- I made my first batch of Tempeh any experts?

>  Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters
> from Gemcultures.com.
>  Tried the Tempeh

Hi Beau, I don't have any experience with Tempeh but I wanted to say hi
and welcome to the group. : -)

Have you looked at Dom's Culture-Food of Asia in-site?
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/koji.html

Tons of good info there.

regards, Bruce

>  Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters
> from Gemcultures.com.
>  Tried the Tempeh

Hi Beau, I don't have any experience with Tempeh but I wanted to say hi
and welcome to the group. : -)

Have you looked at Dom's Culture-Food of Asia in-site?
http://users.chariot.net.au/~dna/koji.html

Tons of good info there.

regards, Bruce

Hi,
  Good Idea for a group! I just got a bunch of different starters
from Gemcultures.com.
  Tried the Tempeh, Quite the task without a grain mill to de-hull
the beans, but it was good, better than store bought for sure.
  I made the mistake of stacking two of the bags and they overheated
and did not mold, but instead smelled of ammonia and were slimy.
   Anyone try making Tempeh?
I'm curious about the ideal cooking time for the beans and do you
use vinegar? Do you rinse the beans after soaking or cooking?
I will try Natto next, higher incubation temp but no need to de-hull.
  Holler back if you have ever tried any of these.
I intend to make a batch of light rice koji for making amazake too.
Seems that it needs to incubate 2 1/2 days, I'll need a thermostat
for my ice chest incubator before I take on that one.
Just the group we need!
Take Care,
  Beau Barrett
Pioneer, Ca