I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping someone here
has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for non-oily fish
when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this might be?  Are some
fish better than others to use?

Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is there any
use for any of this like in the garden?

Thanks & Happy New Year!
Carrie

One important thing about fish heads: be sure to take ALL the gill off!
Gills make it taste horrible.

I don't know about oily vs. not oily ... I use salmon heads, and it tastes
wonderful. I cook the heads on a low heat til they fall apart. The gel in
them kind of disappears and makes a great stock, although it doesn't always
gel. Great base for Tom Yum soup. Add a little coconut milk to round it out.

Yes, you can bury the bones. They are great for the soil and disappear
fairly quickly. Or feed the worm bin. Or give them to chickens.


On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Suzy <moonlion@...> wrote:

> I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping someone
> here has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for
> non-oily fish when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this
> might be?  Are some fish better than others to use?
>
> Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is there
> any use for any of this like in the garden?
>
> Thanks & Happy New Year!
> Carrie
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Heather Twist
http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Heather!

I was hoping it didn't matter.  Thanks for the Tom Yum soup idea.  Love that
soup.  And the burying the bones.  Glad to hear I can do something with it.

Anyone know how the fish fertilizer for plants is made?

--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...>
wrote:
>
> One important thing about fish heads: be sure to take ALL the gill off!
> Gills make it taste horrible.
>
> I don't know about oily vs. not oily ... I use salmon heads, and it tastes
> wonderful. I cook the heads on a low heat til they fall apart. The gel in
> them kind of disappears and makes a great stock, although it doesn't always
> gel. Great base for Tom Yum soup. Add a little coconut milk to round it out.
>
> Yes, you can bury the bones. They are great for the soil and disappear
> fairly quickly. Or feed the worm bin. Or give them to chickens.
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Suzy <moonlion@...> wrote:
>
> > I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping someone
> > here has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for
> > non-oily fish when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this
> > might be?  Are some fish better than others to use?
> >
> > Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is there
> > any use for any of this like in the garden?
> >
> > Thanks & Happy New Year!
> > Carrie
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Heather Twist
> http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Fish fertilizer seems to be very similar to Thai "fish sauce", which was
traditionally made by putting raw fish scraps in a jar out in the sun, til
it decomposes. Yes, it stinks!

I think once it is cooked though, it doesn't decompose the same way. The
Amazonians appear to have burned the fish remains and used the burnt
remains mixed with charcoal and pottery shards, as fertilizer. I think you
can just bury the bones though. Or run them through the blender so they
disappear faster.

The one down side is that dogs really love the smell of decomposing fish.
When I used fish fertilizer and had a dog, the dog would eat the plant
soil. I also had a neighbor dog that uprooted some new plantings, when I
buried beef bones underneath them. I buried most bones, which alkalizes the
soil (and is an easy way to get rid of the bones). Right now though, I give
the bones to the chickens, which pick them clean and also de-smell them ...
or at least make them all smell like chicken coop ... so they don't attract
critters when they become part of the soil. Most of the small bones though,
decompose in the chicken litter and disappear. I expect the chickens
actually eat a lot of the small bones, and their egg shells get nice and
strong.


On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Suzy <moonlion@...> wrote:

> Thanks Heather!
>
> I was hoping it didn't matter.  Thanks for the Tom Yum soup idea.  Love
> that soup.  And the burying the bones.  Glad to hear I can do something
> with it.
>
> Anyone know how the fish fertilizer for plants is made?
>
> --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > One important thing about fish heads: be sure to take ALL the gill off!
> > Gills make it taste horrible.
> >
> > I don't know about oily vs. not oily ... I use salmon heads, and it
> tastes
> > wonderful. I cook the heads on a low heat til they fall apart. The gel in
> > them kind of disappears and makes a great stock, although it doesn't
> always
> > gel. Great base for Tom Yum soup. Add a little coconut milk to round it
> out.
> >
> > Yes, you can bury the bones. They are great for the soil and disappear
> > fairly quickly. Or feed the worm bin. Or give them to chickens.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Suzy <moonlion@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping
> someone
> > > here has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for
> > > non-oily fish when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this
> > > might be?  Are some fish better than others to use?
> > >
> > > Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is
> there
> > > any use for any of this like in the garden?
> > >
> > > Thanks & Happy New Year!
> > > Carrie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Heather Twist
> > http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Heather Twist
http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bury them, and "they" will come. ;-)

Mind is speech. Speech is mind.


On Jan 1, 2012, at 8:46 PM, "Suzy" <moonlion@...> wrote:

> Thanks Heather!
>
> I was hoping it didn't matter. Thanks for the Tom Yum soup idea. Love that
soup. And the burying the bones. Glad to hear I can do something with it.
>
> Anyone know how the fish fertilizer for plants is made?
>
> --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...>
wrote:
> >
> > One important thing about fish heads: be sure to take ALL the gill off!
> > Gills make it taste horrible.
> >
> > I don't know about oily vs. not oily ... I use salmon heads, and it tastes
> > wonderful. I cook the heads on a low heat til they fall apart. The gel in
> > them kind of disappears and makes a great stock, although it doesn't always
> > gel. Great base for Tom Yum soup. Add a little coconut milk to round it out.
> >
> > Yes, you can bury the bones. They are great for the soil and disappear
> > fairly quickly. Or feed the worm bin. Or give them to chickens.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Suzy <moonlion@...> wrote:
> >
> > > I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping someone
> > > here has some insight. The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for
> > > non-oily fish when making stock. Anyone have any ideas as to why this
> > > might be? Are some fish better than others to use?
> > >
> > > Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones. Is there
> > > any use for any of this like in the garden?
> > >
> > > Thanks & Happy New Year!
> > > Carrie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Heather Twist
> > http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mainly, oily fish produce a stock that is a bit too "robust" in the scent
dept for most Western Tastes;>.
Cheers,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Suzy
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 3:15 PM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MN] Fish Stock

I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping someone
here has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for
non-oily fish when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this might
be?  Are some fish better than others to use?

Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is there
any use for any of this like in the garden?

Thanks & Happy New Year!
Carrie



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I make fish stock out of oily fish (ie. Salmon, Trout) quite often. The oil is
very healthy, and exceptionally tasty. I make my stock in a pressure cooker, so
all the fish bones are cooked until completely soft and edible. I either eat the
bones as part of a fish soup/stew or I feed them to my dog or cat. Fish bones
are an excellent source of calcium, and fish stock in general has many other
health benefits, including that they are a great source of gelatin, which comes
from the bones and is great for healthy joints and bones (anti-arthritis).

I never throw out meat bones. They go right to the stock pot or pressure cooker
to extract every last nutrient I can get out of them, not to mention the awesome
flavor, as well.

Brenda,
Boise, Idaho

--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, "Suzy" <moonlion@...> wrote:
>
> I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping someone here
has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for non-oily fish
when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this might be?  Are some
fish better than others to use?
>
> Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is there any
use for any of this like in the garden?
>
> Thanks & Happy New Year!
> Carrie
>

This reminds me of one issue about oily fish ... the fish fatty acids are
ones that can get oxidized more readily than beef fat does. Using a
pressure cooker is a great idea ... it prevents oxygen from getting in.

I have a recipe that uses fish, complete with skin and bones, placed in
jars and then pressure cooked. This breaks down the skin and bones into
gelatinous stuff and makes a kind of "potted fish" that sounds delightful,
though I haven't done it myself yet. The idea is not to seal up the jars
for storage, but just to save the "juices" in with the fish meat, so it is
richer tasting. That happens with canned sardines, which I think is one
reason they are so yummy. I do love eating the soft bones!

The bones will eventually soften up even if you slow-cook the salmon heads
though. I cook them in a clay pot on occasion, on a rather low heat (so
they are not boiling). Some bits do stay hard though so it's good to be
careful while eating them.



On Mon, Jan 2, 2012 at 8:34 AM, artistmama <artistmama@...> wrote:

>
>
> I make fish stock out of oily fish (ie. Salmon, Trout) quite often. The
> oil is very healthy, and exceptionally tasty. I make my stock in a pressure
> cooker, so all the fish bones are cooked until completely soft and edible.
> I either eat the bones as part of a fish soup/stew or I feed them to my dog
> or cat. Fish bones are an excellent source of calcium, and fish stock in
> general has many other health benefits, including that they are a great
> source of gelatin, which comes from the bones and is great for healthy
> joints and bones (anti-arthritis).
>
> I never throw out meat bones. They go right to the stock pot or pressure
> cooker to extract every last nutrient I can get out of them, not to mention
> the awesome flavor, as well.
>
> Brenda,
> Boise, Idaho
>
> --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, "Suzy" <moonlion@...> wrote:
> >
> > I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping
> someone here has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls
> for non-oily fish when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this
> might be?  Are some fish better than others to use?
> >
> > Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is
> there any use for any of this like in the garden?
> >
> > Thanks & Happy New Year!
> > Carrie
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Heather Twist
http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I bet it would be a great addition for kitties.  We often add flour to our bones
and mix them together...they are soft and add a bit of of broth and bake em.  
The dogs seem to love em.  Straight shots of bones can make em sick...I think it
is because they eat too much or wolf em down....and we can control thngs abit
with the treats.

--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...>
wrote:
>
> Fish fertilizer seems to be very similar to Thai "fish sauce", which was
> traditionally made by putting raw fish scraps in a jar out in the sun, til
> it decomposes. Yes, it stinks!
>
> I think once it is cooked though, it doesn't decompose the same way. The
> Amazonians appear to have burned the fish remains and used the burnt
> remains mixed with charcoal and pottery shards, as fertilizer. I think you
> can just bury the bones though. Or run them through the blender so they
> disappear faster.
>
> The one down side is that dogs really love the smell of decomposing fish.
> When I used fish fertilizer and had a dog, the dog would eat the plant
> soil. I also had a neighbor dog that uprooted some new plantings, when I
> buried beef bones underneath them. I buried most bones, which alkalizes the
> soil (and is an easy way to get rid of the bones). Right now though, I give
> the bones to the chickens, which pick them clean and also de-smell them ...
> or at least make them all smell like chicken coop ... so they don't attract
> critters when they become part of the soil. Most of the small bones though,
> decompose in the chicken litter and disappear. I expect the chickens
> actually eat a lot of the small bones, and their egg shells get nice and
> strong.
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 5:46 PM, Suzy <moonlion@...> wrote:
>
> > Thanks Heather!
> >
> > I was hoping it didn't matter.  Thanks for the Tom Yum soup idea.  Love
> > that soup.  And the burying the bones.  Glad to hear I can do something
> > with it.
> >
> > Anyone know how the fish fertilizer for plants is made?
> >
> > --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > One important thing about fish heads: be sure to take ALL the gill off!
> > > Gills make it taste horrible.
> > >
> > > I don't know about oily vs. not oily ... I use salmon heads, and it
> > tastes
> > > wonderful. I cook the heads on a low heat til they fall apart. The gel in
> > > them kind of disappears and makes a great stock, although it doesn't
> > always
> > > gel. Great base for Tom Yum soup. Add a little coconut milk to round it
> > out.
> > >
> > > Yes, you can bury the bones. They are great for the soil and disappear
> > > fairly quickly. Or feed the worm bin. Or give them to chickens.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Suzy <moonlion@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I was wondering a couple of things about fish stock and am hoping
> > someone
> > > > here has some insight.  The Nourishing Traditions Cookbook calls for
> > > > non-oily fish when making stock.  Anyone have any ideas as to why this
> > > > might be?  Are some fish better than others to use?
> > > >
> > > > Also, once the stock is done, there is a ton of fish and bones.  Is
> > there
> > > > any use for any of this like in the garden?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks & Happy New Year!
> > > > Carrie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Heather Twist
> > > http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Heather Twist
> http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

When I realized I had some extra milk kefir grains I decided to put a couple of
pats of the salted butter (all I had) in there and see what happened. I'd almost
swear they're eating it. Has anybody done milk kefir with butter before? What
happened? '-)


^^
felix
http://felixperegrino.com

Hello,

I've been lurking on this group for a few months soaking up all of the wisdom
here.  I'm hoping that someone will be able to give me some insight on where I'm
going wrong.

I have been trying to make water kefir since the summer.  Although I have been
able to get many good tasting fizzy brews happening, the grains have stubbornly
refused to grow.  I have tried adding baking soda.  I have switched up the dried
fruit.  I have tried using coconut water.  I generally use a Santevia water
filter, which supposedly remineralizes the water after filtering, but I have
even used tap water which I have boiled to get rid of the chlorine and cooled,
in an effort to get the grains to grow.

And recently, it has started making slime.  Blech!  A few batches turned slimy
on me in October, and then things returned to normal (although I had a few brews
that smelled like vomit) for a couple months, and now, the slime has returned.

For a while I thought that perhaps I had ginger grains instead of true water
grains because the grains seemed to make the fizziest, best kefir when I put
them in water that had been used to steep ginger, along with the ginger root. 
But then, even that stopped working and turned to slime.

Does anyone know what's going on with these grains?  Why won't they grow, and
why are they making slime?

I'm in the greater Vancouver area of BC.  I don't know if location has anything
to do with the problems I am experiencing, but I thought it would be worth a
mention.

Thanks in advance for any advice/insight that you can offer.

Natasha

Hi there...I had the same problem and eventually gave up. One person said it
might be the bacteria from my milk kefir that are very strong overtaking the
water kefir? Who knows though. Good luck and if you find out, please post!!!
Thanks MaryAnne B


________________________________
From: Natasha <casaknox@...>
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 3, 2012 2:24 PM
Subject: [MN] newbie delurking to request help with water kefir


 
Hello,

I've been lurking on this group for a few months soaking up all of the wisdom
here. I'm hoping that someone will be able to give me some insight on where I'm
going wrong.

I have been trying to make water kefir since the summer. Although I have been
able to get many good tasting fizzy brews happening, the grains have stubbornly
refused to grow. I have tried adding baking soda. I have switched up the dried
fruit. I have tried using coconut water. I generally use a Santevia water
filter, which supposedly remineralizes the water after filtering, but I have
even used tap water which I have boiled to get rid of the chlorine and cooled,
in an effort to get the grains to grow.

And recently, it has started making slime. Blech! A few batches turned slimy on
me in October, and then things returned to normal (although I had a few brews
that smelled like vomit) for a couple months, and now, the slime has returned.

For a while I thought that perhaps I had ginger grains instead of true water
grains because the grains seemed to make the fizziest, best kefir when I put
them in water that had been used to steep ginger, along with the ginger root.
But then, even that stopped working and turned to slime.

Does anyone know what's going on with these grains? Why won't they grow, and why
are they making slime?

I'm in the greater Vancouver area of BC. I don't know if location has anything
to do with the problems I am experiencing, but I thought it would be worth a
mention.

Thanks in advance for any advice/insight that you can offer.

Natasha




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When you have microbial cultures, the culture itself can get contaminated,
either by
other bacteria or by "phages". Phages are viruses that only attack
bacteria, and
they are a major cause of failure for cheesemakers.

Some cultures are very phage resistant ... milk kefir happens to be one of
those.
It could also be that milk kefir actually *hosts* phages, which it uses to
kill
non-milk-kefir bacteria:

http://www.foreignpolicybulletinmonitor.com/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=21\
D5781EB137B536BFC423E95017D9D8.journals?fromPage=online&aid=7083560



However, even if you aren't using milk kefir, phages are all over the place
and
they do attack bacterial cultures. Other bacteria attack them too. Water
kefir
is more susceptible to attack than some other cultures, it seems.

Anyway, the first water kefir I got failed. The next one was ok, but I was
more
careful to keep it away from the milk kefir. I stopped making it eventually
because
I decided I don't like water kefir so much.



On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Natasha <casaknox@...> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking on this group for a few months soaking up all of the
> wisdom here.  I'm hoping that someone will be able to give me some insight
> on where I'm going wrong.
>
> I have been trying to make water kefir since the summer.  Although I have
> been able to get many good tasting fizzy brews happening, the grains have
> stubbornly refused to grow.  I have tried adding baking soda.  I have
> switched up the dried fruit.  I have tried using coconut water.  I
> generally use a Santevia water filter, which supposedly remineralizes the
> water after filtering, but I have even used tap water which I have boiled
> to get rid of the chlorine and cooled, in an effort to get the grains to
> grow.
>
> And recently, it has started making slime.  Blech!  A few batches turned
> slimy on me in October, and then things returned to normal (although I had
> a few brews that smelled like vomit) for a couple months, and now, the
> slime has returned.
>
> For a while I thought that perhaps I had ginger grains instead of true
> water grains because the grains seemed to make the fizziest, best kefir
> when I put them in water that had been used to steep ginger, along with the
> ginger root.  But then, even that stopped working and turned to slime.
>
> Does anyone know what's going on with these grains?  Why won't they grow,
> and why are they making slime?
>
> I'm in the greater Vancouver area of BC.  I don't know if location has
> anything to do with the problems I am experiencing, but I thought it would
> be worth a mention.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice/insight that you can offer.
>
> Natasha
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Heather Twist
http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I do have some dairy kefir, as well as a few other cultures here and there.  As
much as possible, I've been trying to keep them separate and ferment in
different rooms, but perhaps I need to have spots over the entire house to give
more distance?  I had also noticed that my piima is no longer happy, so perhaps
there is indeed some element of cross contamination.

I also diffuse eucalyptus and other oils after we've been sick to purify the air
in our home, and there is eucalyptus and tea tree oil in the cleaning spray that
I use.  Since these are highly aromatic and antibacterial, I've occasionally
wondered if somehow that is having a detrimental effect on my ferments?  Does
anyone here know if essential oils used in the ways I've described have an
impact on fermented foods?

I'm starting to think that I need to start over with some new Kefir grains. 
It's weird, but after having trying for the past six months to get them to grow,
I almost feel guilty about replacing them :D

I'm very new to fermented foods, but I am almost feeling brave enough to try
making some sourdough.  I think it would be interesting to see what is floating
around in the air in this house.

Natasha

--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...>
wrote:
>
> When you have microbial cultures, the culture itself can get contaminated,
> either by
> other bacteria or by "phages". Phages are viruses that only attack
> bacteria, and
> they are a major cause of failure for cheesemakers.
>
> Some cultures are very phage resistant ... milk kefir happens to be one of
> those.
> It could also be that milk kefir actually *hosts* phages, which it uses to
> kill
> non-milk-kefir bacteria:
>
>
http://www.foreignpolicybulletinmonitor.com/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=21\
D5781EB137B536BFC423E95017D9D8.journals?fromPage=online&aid=7083560
>
>
>
> However, even if you aren't using milk kefir, phages are all over the place
> and
> they do attack bacterial cultures. Other bacteria attack them too. Water
> kefir
> is more susceptible to attack than some other cultures, it seems.
>
> Anyway, the first water kefir I got failed. The next one was ok, but I was
> more
> careful to keep it away from the milk kefir. I stopped making it eventually
> because
> I decided I don't like water kefir so much.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Natasha <casaknox@...> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've been lurking on this group for a few months soaking up all of the
> > wisdom here.  I'm hoping that someone will be able to give me some insight
> > on where I'm going wrong.
> >
> > I have been trying to make water kefir since the summer.  Although I have
> > been able to get many good tasting fizzy brews happening, the grains have
> > stubbornly refused to grow.  I have tried adding baking soda.  I have
> > switched up the dried fruit.  I have tried using coconut water.  I
> > generally use a Santevia water filter, which supposedly remineralizes the
> > water after filtering, but I have even used tap water which I have boiled
> > to get rid of the chlorine and cooled, in an effort to get the grains to
> > grow.
> >
> > And recently, it has started making slime.  Blech!  A few batches turned
> > slimy on me in October, and then things returned to normal (although I had
> > a few brews that smelled like vomit) for a couple months, and now, the
> > slime has returned.
> >
> > For a while I thought that perhaps I had ginger grains instead of true
> > water grains because the grains seemed to make the fizziest, best kefir
> > when I put them in water that had been used to steep ginger, along with the
> > ginger root.  But then, even that stopped working and turned to slime.
> >
> > Does anyone know what's going on with these grains?  Why won't they grow,
> > and why are they making slime?
> >
> > I'm in the greater Vancouver area of BC.  I don't know if location has
> > anything to do with the problems I am experiencing, but I thought it would
> > be worth a mention.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any advice/insight that you can offer.
> >
> > Natasha
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Heather Twist
> http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Turpenes are extremely effective against bacteria and fungi (yeast). So
yes, if the container isn't fully closed, that could have something to do
with it. I use a plastic lid these days, so air can escape, but stuff can't
get in from the outside. This after my kefir morphed to kefiili, from viili
which was growing nearby.

I usually use just soap and hot water on fermenting containers, or put them
through the dishwasher (which does a good job of rinsing). Residual oils
could affect the ferment, I think, if you used terpene-based cleaners on
the jar.

Also fruit peels ... fruit is often treated with anti-fungals, and orange
and lemon peel is naturally anti-fungal (full of turpenes). My milk kefir
gets upset if I don't use organic milk, which is likely from antibiotics
given to the cows? Iodine and bromine are used to clean cow udders too, and
trace amounts can be left in the milk.

Usually though, once a ferment gets going well, they are pretty forgiving.


On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 1:46 PM, Natasha <casaknox@...> wrote:

> I do have some dairy kefir, as well as a few other cultures here and
> there.  As much as possible, I've been trying to keep them separate and
> ferment in different rooms, but perhaps I need to have spots over the
> entire house to give more distance?  I had also noticed that my piima is no
> longer happy, so perhaps there is indeed some element of cross
> contamination.
>
> I also diffuse eucalyptus and other oils after we've been sick to purify
> the air in our home, and there is eucalyptus and tea tree oil in the
> cleaning spray that I use.  Since these are highly aromatic and
> antibacterial, I've occasionally wondered if somehow that is having a
> detrimental effect on my ferments?  Does anyone here know if essential oils
> used in the ways I've described have an impact on fermented foods?
>
> I'm starting to think that I need to start over with some new Kefir
> grains.  It's weird, but after having trying for the past six months to get
> them to grow, I almost feel guilty about replacing them :D
>
> I'm very new to fermented foods, but I am almost feeling brave enough to
> try making some sourdough.  I think it would be interesting to see what is
> floating around in the air in this house.
>
> Natasha
>
> --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > When you have microbial cultures, the culture itself can get
> contaminated,
> > either by
> > other bacteria or by "phages". Phages are viruses that only attack
> > bacteria, and
> > they are a major cause of failure for cheesemakers.
> >
> > Some cultures are very phage resistant ... milk kefir happens to be one
> of
> > those.
> > It could also be that milk kefir actually *hosts* phages, which it uses
> to
> > kill
> > non-milk-kefir bacteria:
> >
> >
>
http://www.foreignpolicybulletinmonitor.com/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=21\
D5781EB137B536BFC423E95017D9D8.journals?fromPage=online&aid=7083560
> >
> >
> >
> > However, even if you aren't using milk kefir, phages are all over the
> place
> > and
> > they do attack bacterial cultures. Other bacteria attack them too. Water
> > kefir
> > is more susceptible to attack than some other cultures, it seems.
> >
> > Anyway, the first water kefir I got failed. The next one was ok, but I
> was
> > more
> > careful to keep it away from the milk kefir. I stopped making it
> eventually
> > because
> > I decided I don't like water kefir so much.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:24 AM, Natasha <casaknox@...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I've been lurking on this group for a few months soaking up all of the
> > > wisdom here.  I'm hoping that someone will be able to give me some
> insight
> > > on where I'm going wrong.
> > >
> > > I have been trying to make water kefir since the summer.  Although I
> have
> > > been able to get many good tasting fizzy brews happening, the grains
> have
> > > stubbornly refused to grow.  I have tried adding baking soda.  I have
> > > switched up the dried fruit.  I have tried using coconut water.  I
> > > generally use a Santevia water filter, which supposedly remineralizes
> the
> > > water after filtering, but I have even used tap water which I have
> boiled
> > > to get rid of the chlorine and cooled, in an effort to get the grains
> to
> > > grow.
> > >
> > > And recently, it has started making slime.  Blech!  A few batches
> turned
> > > slimy on me in October, and then things returned to normal (although I
> had
> > > a few brews that smelled like vomit) for a couple months, and now, the
> > > slime has returned.
> > >
> > > For a while I thought that perhaps I had ginger grains instead of true
> > > water grains because the grains seemed to make the fizziest, best kefir
> > > when I put them in water that had been used to steep ginger, along
> with the
> > > ginger root.  But then, even that stopped working and turned to slime.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know what's going on with these grains?  Why won't they
> grow,
> > > and why are they making slime?
> > >
> > > I'm in the greater Vancouver area of BC.  I don't know if location has
> > > anything to do with the problems I am experiencing, but I thought it
> would
> > > be worth a mention.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance for any advice/insight that you can offer.
> > >
> > > Natasha
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Heather Twist
> > http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


--
Heather Twist
http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, same here. I gave up too. Water kefir grains seem to be delicate and
require attention, unlike the sturdy milk kefir grains. When mine were going
bad, I did manage to restore them to big and doubling daily by putting them in
what I called water grain ICU. I had them in water that had egg shells, baking
soda, a mineral supp and assorted other things that I read up and can't recall
right now. It all worked great and they were fabulous.

Still, I didn't feel like devoting so much time and effort to them and I felt
that my time was better spent on other ferments. I did keep a batch of healthy
frozen ones for if I ever changed my mind.

Dom says that sometimes they are "pickled" and can't be brought back any more
and one should always have a back up for times like that.

Millie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi,
What sugar are you using to feed the water kefir grains?
When I used white sugar the grains refused to grow. I switched to Sucanat
(dehydrated cane juice) and the grains began to reproduce very well.

When my water culture got contaminated I tossed it and started with new grains.
I change the water every day to prevent contamination. As long as I do that
growing milk and water kefir cultures side by side is no problem.

Hari



--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, "Natasha" <casaknox@...> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I've been lurking on this group for a few months soaking up all of the wisdom
here.  I'm hoping that someone will be able to give me some insight on where I'm
going wrong.
>
> I have been trying to make water kefir since the summer.  Although I have been
able to get many good tasting fizzy brews happening, the grains have stubbornly
refused to grow.  I have tried adding baking soda.  I have switched up the dried
fruit.  I have tried using coconut water.  I generally use a Santevia water
filter, which supposedly remineralizes the water after filtering, but I have
even used tap water which I have boiled to get rid of the chlorine and cooled,
in an effort to get the grains to grow.
>
> And recently, it has started making slime.  Blech!  A few batches turned slimy
on me in October, and then things returned to normal (although I had a few brews
that smelled like vomit) for a couple months, and now, the slime has returned.
>
> For a while I thought that perhaps I had ginger grains instead of true water
grains because the grains seemed to make the fizziest, best kefir when I put
them in water that had been used to steep ginger, along with the ginger root. 
But then, even that stopped working and turned to slime.
>
> Does anyone know what's going on with these grains?  Why won't they grow, and
why are they making slime?
>
> I'm in the greater Vancouver area of BC.  I don't know if location has
anything to do with the problems I am experiencing, but I thought it would be
worth a mention.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice/insight that you can offer.
>
> Natasha
>

I just put about an eighth of a tsp. of both yeast and organic white sugar in a
cup with luke warm water.  No bubbles or anything.  I bought the Fleischman's
Bread Machine Yeast since I just use the bread machine.  I bought the yeast last
summer and it says in the directions to use it within 6 months. It is in a 4 oz.
bottle.

In the '70s I  worked at a natural foods restaurant and baked 12 loafs of bread
a day for a few months so we used the yeast up pretty quick.  I stored it in the
fridge like the directions called for.The date on top says Jan 4, 2013 or 1 year
from today.Maybe the frezer would be better to store it.Are there some yeasts
that do not expire?

Thanks
GB

--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, Heather Twist <HeatherTwist@...>
wrote:
>
> I've not had yeast actually go bad either, though I buy it in big
> quantities at Costco (mostly because it is cheaper that way). But I keep it
> in the fridge. I think it would last longer in the freezer. But when you
> way "half a bottle" I'm not sure what you are talking about ... ours is
> dry, granular, comes in a plastic pack.
>
> However, the way to check if it is still ok is: put some in some water with
> a little sugar. If it "comes to life" and starts bubbling, then it's good.
> In wine and beer making, the normal thing is to get the yeast going nicely
> by feeding it overnight on sugar water or molasses or whatever, and THEN
> adding it to the wort. If you do that, then  you'll be sure it's good
> before you make a whole batch.
>
>
> On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 1:51 PM, greatyoga <greatyoga@...> wrote:
>
> > I use a breadmaker once in awhile to bake bread.  I do it maybe once a
> > month.since I mainly use it for making sandwiches when hiking and doing
> > outdoor things.  On the label it says it lasts about 6 months.  I bought it
> > this summer and used it a couple of days ago to bake bread and the bread
> > turned out to be a brick.  It evidently expired.  My question is there a
> > way to extend the shelf life?  Since I don't usually bake bread that often
> > it is cheaper for me to buy bread than to use half the bottle and have to
> > throw it away and use up a lot of flour to throw that away also.  Are there
> > any remedies?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > GB
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Heather Twist
> http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi Hari,

I've given them every imaginable kind of sugar - refined cane, sucanat,
unrefined coconut sugar, maple syrup, palm sugar...they're just not happy.

I was originally hoping to resurrect them, but I think I'm going to start over
with a fresh batch of grains, keep them even further away from my dairy kefir
and other ferments, and keep the lid closed when I'm cleaning my kitchen, this
time!

Natasha

--- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, "hh71899" <harihart@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi,
> What sugar are you using to feed the water kefir grains?
> When I used white sugar the grains refused to grow. I switched to Sucanat
(dehydrated cane juice) and the grains began to reproduce very well.
>
> When my water culture got contaminated I tossed it and started with new
grains. I change the water every day to prevent contamination. As long as I do
that growing milk and water kefir cultures side by side is no problem.
>
> Hari
>
>
>
> --- In Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com, "Natasha" <casaknox@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I've been lurking on this group for a few months soaking up all of the
wisdom here.  I'm hoping that someone will be able to give me some insight on
where I'm going wrong.
> >
> > I have been trying to make water kefir since the summer.  Although I have
been able to get many good tasting fizzy brews happening, the grains have
stubbornly refused to grow.  I have tried adding baking soda.  I have switched
up the dried fruit.  I have tried using coconut water.  I generally use a
Santevia water filter, which supposedly remineralizes the water after filtering,
but I have even used tap water which I have boiled to get rid of the chlorine
and cooled, in an effort to get the grains to grow.
> >
> > And recently, it has started making slime.  Blech!  A few batches turned
slimy on me in October, and then things returned to normal (although I had a few
brews that smelled like vomit) for a couple months, and now, the slime has
returned.
> >
> > For a while I thought that perhaps I had ginger grains instead of true water
grains because the grains seemed to make the fizziest, best kefir when I put
them in water that had been used to steep ginger, along with the ginger root. 
But then, even that stopped working and turned to slime.
> >
> > Does anyone know what's going on with these grains?  Why won't they grow,
and why are they making slime?
> >
> > I'm in the greater Vancouver area of BC.  I don't know if location has
anything to do with the problems I am experiencing, but I thought it would be
worth a mention.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any advice/insight that you can offer.
> >
> > Natasha
> >
>

While I was reading about your troubles with your water kefir grains I decided
to see if I could arouse some life in some water grains that have sat in the
liquid they determined the temporary fate of because I did nothing to help. I
dumped them into a nylon mesh strainer I bought in a set of two down to the
Wal-Mart SuperCenter and got shed of the stuff in which they were stewing. Then,
I returned them to the pint canning jar they had inhabited previously, filled it
back up with chlorinated water from the sink, put them back through the nylon
strainer again until they started looking more translucent like the grains
Cynthia Meredith sent me from Texas. Whereupon, I put them back in their
extemporaneous ancestral home with two heaping tablespoons of Dixie Crystals
table sugar, and then filled the jar up nearly to the top with more chlorinated
tap water, and this morning they're gurgling again.

Have you considered that you're just being too precious with your grains? Are
you imitating Dana Garvey doing his Church Laaaaady routine? Have you ever heard
of scarifying? All these grains do is eat sugar. What's up with the other
finicky crap if they're dying from not being neglected? I recommend reading de
Sade with more murderous intent in your heart. '-)

^^
Speech is mind. Mind is speech.

felix

Yesterday, I got my Milk Kefir grains from CFH. Does it really take 5-7 days
to become productive? Seems like I lot of Milk down the drain to me.

Cheers,

Pat(who had a bit too Aged Natto and may have turned myself off them
permanently. I thought I was permanently "slimed";>)



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:19 PM, Patrick Duffy wrote:

Yesterday, I got my Milk Kefir grains from CFH. Does it really take 5-7 days
to become productive? Seems like I lot of Milk down the drain to me.

********

How will you know if it's ready?

^^
felix

Yup. Sometimes at this time of yr my "sniffer" isn't always the most useful
sense organ;>. Also, the waste bugs me but I hope it'll be worth it in the
end. Perhaps I should have gone to a vendor who was selling Live instead of
dehydrated grains. We'll see in a work-week.
Cheers,
Pat

-----Original Message-----
From: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of felix peregrino
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 12:36 PM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [MN] Kefir Grain Rehydration....


On Jan 6, 2012, at 1:19 PM, Patrick Duffy wrote:

Yesterday, I got my Milk Kefir grains from CFH. Does it really take 5-7 days
to become productive? Seems like I lot of Milk down the drain to me.

********

How will you know if it's ready?

^^
felix



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

On Jan 6, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Patrick Duffy wrote:

Yup. Sometimes at this time of yr my "sniffer" isn't always the most useful
sense organ;>. Also, the waste bugs me but I hope it'll be worth it in the
end. Perhaps I should have gone to a vendor who was selling Live instead of
dehydrated grains. We'll see in a work-week.
Cheers,
Pat

*********

Since I make my kefir in a translucent glass jar that has a decorated glass top
held in place by clear translucent neoprene rings, I can see the fermentation
progress as the kefir grains consume the lactose in the milk. I look for signs
that the ferment is ripening toward separation. As the lactose in the milk gets
eaten and digested by the grain matrixes the less lactose there is for the baby
bacteria to consume, and the higher up in the milk the matrixes will gather to
make babies. I look for what seems like hollow spots at the bottom of my jar as
total separation approaches. That's when I take my cut of healthy grains for the
next batch of kefir before separation occurs, and while they're still in their
consuming mode. Then, I leave the babies to eat the remaining lactose to beget
separation into curds. Maybe that's a little like doing a second fermentation
with water kefir.

I think that by counting coup on the healthiest growing grains early in the
fermenting process it strengthens the seed grains by a starvation diet in which
there is actually too much nutrition for the immature matrixes to wolf down.
"Water, water, everywhere..."

^^
Speech is mind. Mind is speech.

felix

Hey Everyone,

Today's question is about butter.  The process is, I get raw milk from the
cow and make my own butter from the [separated] cream.  I was told by the
farmer that in order to not have it "go bad", the butter needs to be rinsed
*very well*.  I have always rinsed my butter 3 times in ice water,
according to a you tube video or some such.  Subsequently, I have learned
the difference between "fresh cream" butter and "cultured" butter.  My
question is, then, if it's ok to culture the cream and then make butter, is
it really true that the butter could go bad because of milk particles
fermenting in unrinsed butter?  It's kind of a drag to rinse it.  Sometimes
it works perfectly fine, and other times, the butter doesn't stick to
itself and instead forms teeny grains which are difficult to "herd".  I
wonder whether this behavior is the result of a particular time of year and
some characteristic of the cream, or if this happens from having too much
milk in the butter in the first place, or...?!  I had thought the
temperature might have had something to do with it, but I don't know how.
  Anyway, the characteristics of the cream are secondary to my question
whether it's necessary to rinse the butter or not...  but if anyone has two
cents, I'm interested.

--
Julie
Julie's Vegetable Ranch
(541) 338-0031


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Julie,

I have some direct experience with this question. I've made raw butter many
times, both rinsing well in cold water and not rinsing at all. I have not found
any appreciable difference in how long the butter lasts. Both take on a blue
cheese smell and hint of taste after a few weeks in the fridge. One time I found
a tub of my unrinsed raw butter that I had forgotten about or got pushed behind
something, about 3-4 months latter and found it to be delicious, with that
aforementioned bleu cheese smell and hint of taste. Mind you, this was unsalted
and unrinsed butter. It may not be desirable for sweeter taste applications, but
otherwise was perfectly good.

When I make my butter I let the raw cream sit out at room temp for about 8 - 24
hours before shaking it into butter, at which point that only takes about 1 -2
minutes of shaking. Then comes the longer phase of pressing and kneeding the
"buttermilk" from the butter. This is a traditional way of making "cultured"
butter (without an added culture).

Tonio


From: julie rossberg
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 5:09 PM
To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [MN] Butter Question



Hey Everyone,

Today's question is about butter. The process is, I get raw milk from the
cow and make my own butter from the [separated] cream. I was told by the
farmer that in order to not have it "go bad", the butter needs to be rinsed
*very well*. I have always rinsed my butter 3 times in ice water,
according to a you tube video or some such. Subsequently, I have learned
the difference between "fresh cream" butter and "cultured" butter. My
question is, then, if it's ok to culture the cream and then make butter, is
it really true that the butter could go bad because of milk particles
fermenting in unrinsed butter? It's kind of a drag to rinse it. Sometimes
it works perfectly fine, and other times, the butter doesn't stick to
itself and instead forms teeny grains which are difficult to "herd". I
wonder whether this behavior is the result of a particular time of year and
some characteristic of the cream, or if this happens from having too much
milk in the butter in the first place, or...?! I had thought the
temperature might have had something to do with it, but I don't know how.
Anyway, the characteristics of the cream are secondary to my question
whether it's necessary to rinse the butter or not... but if anyone has two
cents, I'm interested.

--
Julie
Julie's Vegetable Ranch
(541) 338-0031

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks, Tonio!  I suspected as much.  I am going to throw caution to the
wind and experiment!

Julie

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Tonio Epstein <tonio@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi Julie,
>
> I have some direct experience with this question. I've made raw butter
> many times, both rinsing well in cold water and not rinsing at all. I have
> not found any appreciable difference in how long the butter lasts. Both
> take on a blue cheese smell and hint of taste after a few weeks in the
> fridge. One time I found a tub of my unrinsed raw butter that I had
> forgotten about or got pushed behind something, about 3-4 months latter and
> found it to be delicious, with that aforementioned bleu cheese smell and
> hint of taste. Mind you, this was unsalted and unrinsed butter. It may not
> be desirable for sweeter taste applications, but otherwise was perfectly
> good.
>
> When I make my butter I let the raw cream sit out at room temp for about 8
> - 24 hours before shaking it into butter, at which point that only takes
> about 1 -2 minutes of shaking. Then comes the longer phase of pressing and
> kneeding the "buttermilk" from the butter. This is a traditional way of
> making "cultured" butter (without an added culture).
>
> Tonio
>
> From: julie rossberg
> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 5:09 PM
> To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [MN] Butter Question
>
>
> Hey Everyone,
>
> Today's question is about butter. The process is, I get raw milk from the
> cow and make my own butter from the [separated] cream. I was told by the
> farmer that in order to not have it "go bad", the butter needs to be rinsed
> *very well*. I have always rinsed my butter 3 times in ice water,
> according to a you tube video or some such. Subsequently, I have learned
> the difference between "fresh cream" butter and "cultured" butter. My
> question is, then, if it's ok to culture the cream and then make butter, is
> it really true that the butter could go bad because of milk particles
> fermenting in unrinsed butter? It's kind of a drag to rinse it. Sometimes
> it works perfectly fine, and other times, the butter doesn't stick to
> itself and instead forms teeny grains which are difficult to "herd". I
> wonder whether this behavior is the result of a particular time of year and
> some characteristic of the cream, or if this happens from having too much
> milk in the butter in the first place, or...?! I had thought the
> temperature might have had something to do with it, but I don't know how.
> Anyway, the characteristics of the cream are secondary to my question
> whether it's necessary to rinse the butter or not... but if anyone has two
> cents, I'm interested.
>
> --
> Julie
> Julie's Vegetable Ranch
> (541) 338-0031
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



--
Julie
Julie's Vegetable Ranch
(541) 338-0031


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For anyone who may find my experience/conclusion to not make sense to them,
I add that there is no reasonable way that we can rinse away all of the
liquid milk residue, and therefore no way to eliminate the inevitable
fermenting of the butter after a while.

> Thanks, Tonio!  I suspected as much.  I am going to throw caution to the
> wind and experiment!
>
> Julie
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 4:08 PM, Tonio Epstein <tonio@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> Hi Julie,
>>
>> I have some direct experience with this question. I've made raw butter
>> many times, both rinsing well in cold water and not rinsing at all. I
>> have
>> not found any appreciable difference in how long the butter lasts. Both
>> take on a blue cheese smell and hint of taste after a few weeks in the
>> fridge. One time I found a tub of my unrinsed raw butter that I had
>> forgotten about or got pushed behind something, about 3-4 months latter
>> and
>> found it to be delicious, with that aforementioned bleu cheese smell and
>> hint of taste. Mind you, this was unsalted and unrinsed butter. It may
>> not
>> be desirable for sweeter taste applications, but otherwise was perfectly
>> good.
>>
>> When I make my butter I let the raw cream sit out at room temp for about
>> 8
>> - 24 hours before shaking it into butter, at which point that only takes
>> about 1 -2 minutes of shaking. Then comes the longer phase of pressing
>> and
>> kneeding the "buttermilk" from the butter. This is a traditional way of
>> making "cultured" butter (without an added culture).
>>
>> Tonio
>>
>> From: julie rossberg
>> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 5:09 PM
>> To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: [MN] Butter Question
>>
>>
>> Hey Everyone,
>>
>> Today's question is about butter. The process is, I get raw milk from the
>> cow and make my own butter from the [separated] cream. I was told by the
>> farmer that in order to not have it "go bad", the butter needs to be
>> rinsed
>> *very well*. I have always rinsed my butter 3 times in ice water,
>> according to a you tube video or some such. Subsequently, I have learned
>> the difference between "fresh cream" butter and "cultured" butter. My
>> question is, then, if it's ok to culture the cream and then make butter,
>> is
>> it really true that the butter could go bad because of milk particles
>> fermenting in unrinsed butter? It's kind of a drag to rinse it. Sometimes
>> it works perfectly fine, and other times, the butter doesn't stick to
>> itself and instead forms teeny grains which are difficult to "herd". I
>> wonder whether this behavior is the result of a particular time of year
>> and
>> some characteristic of the cream, or if this happens from having too much
>> milk in the butter in the first place, or...?! I had thought the
>> temperature might have had something to do with it, but I don't know how.
>> Anyway, the characteristics of the cream are secondary to my question
>> whether it's necessary to rinse the butter or not... but if anyone has
>> two
>> cents, I'm interested.
>>
>> --
>> Julie
>> Julie's Vegetable Ranch
>> (541) 338-0031
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Julie
> Julie's Vegetable Ranch
> (541) 338-0031
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

my grains took over week to finally start making kefir. it was a bit
irritating to throw all that milk away. it does say on the instructions
that you may b able too cook with the milk or use it in recipies. guess it
just depends on how it smells. i didnt even attempt only because i cant
have milk unless its fermented or in the form of cheese

On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:53 PM, felix peregrino
<felix.peregrino@...>wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Patrick Duffy wrote:
>
> Yup. Sometimes at this time of yr my "sniffer" isn't always the most useful
> sense organ;>. Also, the waste bugs me but I hope it'll be worth it in the
> end. Perhaps I should have gone to a vendor who was selling Live instead of
> dehydrated grains. We'll see in a work-week.
> Cheers,
> Pat
>
> *********
>
> Since I make my kefir in a translucent glass jar that has a decorated
> glass top held in place by clear translucent neoprene rings, I can see the
> fermentation progress as the kefir grains consume the lactose in the milk.
> I look for signs that the ferment is ripening toward separation. As the
> lactose in the milk gets eaten and digested by the grain matrixes the less
> lactose there is for the baby bacteria to consume, and the higher up in the
> milk the matrixes will gather to make babies. I look for what seems like
> hollow spots at the bottom of my jar as total separation approaches. That's
> when I take my cut of healthy grains for the next batch of kefir before
> separation occurs, and while they're still in their consuming mode. Then, I
> leave the babies to eat the remaining lactose to beget separation into
> curds. Maybe that's a little like doing a second fermentation with water
> kefir.
>
> I think that by counting coup on the healthiest growing grains early in
> the fermenting process it strengthens the seed grains by a starvation diet
> in which there is actually too much nutrition for the immature matrixes to
> wolf down. "Water, water, everywhere..."
>
> ^^
> Speech is mind. Mind is speech.
>
> felix
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I didn't realize that you were talking about reconstituting dried milk kefir.
Never done that. Good luck.

Mind is speech. Speech is mind.


On Jan 6, 2012, at 10:24 PM, Heidi Wilson <heidiwilson2001@...> wrote:

> my grains took over week to finally start making kefir. it was a bit
> irritating to throw all that milk away. it does say on the instructions
> that you may b able too cook with the milk or use it in recipies. guess it
> just depends on how it smells. i didnt even attempt only because i cant
> have milk unless its fermented or in the form of cheese
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:53 PM, felix peregrino
> <felix.peregrino@...>wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 6, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Patrick Duffy wrote:
>>
>> Yup. Sometimes at this time of yr my "sniffer" isn't always the most useful
>> sense organ;>. Also, the waste bugs me but I hope it'll be worth it in the
>> end. Perhaps I should have gone to a vendor who was selling Live instead of
>> dehydrated grains. We'll see in a work-week.
>> Cheers,
>> Pat
>>
>> *********
>>
>> Since I make my kefir in a translucent glass jar that has a decorated
>> glass top held in place by clear translucent neoprene rings, I can see the
>> fermentation progress as the kefir grains consume the lactose in the milk.
>> I look for signs that the ferment is ripening toward separation. As the
>> lactose in the milk gets eaten and digested by the grain matrixes the less
>> lactose there is for the baby bacteria to consume, and the higher up in the
>> milk the matrixes will gather to make babies. I look for what seems like
>> hollow spots at the bottom of my jar as total separation approaches. That's
>> when I take my cut of healthy grains for the next batch of kefir before
>> separation occurs, and while they're still in their consuming mode. Then, I
>> leave the babies to eat the remaining lactose to beget separation into
>> curds. Maybe that's a little like doing a second fermentation with water
>> kefir.
>>
>> I think that by counting coup on the healthiest growing grains early in
>> the fermenting process it strengthens the seed grains by a starvation diet
>> in which there is actually too much nutrition for the immature matrixes to
>> wolf down. "Water, water, everywhere..."
>>
>> ^^
>> Speech is mind. Mind is speech.
>>
>> felix
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>