Hi everyone,



My name is France and I am totally new to all this. I need your advice.  I have

been trying to eat more raw food.  5 days ago I decided to try to make fermented

cabbage. I followed a pretty simple recipe. However I did not add as much salt,

just enough to withdraw water out of the cabbage and make sufficient brine to

cover it.  Then, I put the massaged cabbage in a 1/2-gallon mason jar, pressed

it down, and covered it with cabbage leaves. Finally, I put a smaller mason jar

filled with water inside to put pressure and keep the vegetables submerged in

the brine. I put the lid on the bigger jar and let it rest.  On the second day,

the smaller water-filled jar was pushing so much down that the leaves went up

uncovering the vegetables.  The brine was about 1/2 inch above the vegetables,

almost covering them, so they were not totally exposed to the air. There was

also bubbling, but the bubbles where dark yellowish, and when I opened the big

jar to fix the smaller jar inside, the whole thing just bubbled like crazy. At

that point, I added more water (without salt), covered the vegetables again with

the leaves, fixed the smaller jar to have less pressure over the cabbage, put

the lid on the big jar and set to rest for 4 more days. Today when I opened the

jar the smell was strong but not disgusting, however, the smaller pieces of

cabbage are slimy, bigger chunks are crunchy, and all the brine was viscous.



My question is: Is this kraut eatable? I am not sure if it went bad. I do not

want to eat something full of bad bacteria but I also do not want to throw it

away unless I am sure is bad. I made a lot, and feel guilty just wasting it.





I am sorry for the long post,



Thanks much,



France.

Personally, if it is slimy, I would not eat it. Kraut should not have

the slimy bacteria in it.



If you don't like salt, then you need to add acid ... vinegar will do.

But you need to do something to keep the nastier bacteria at bay, IMO.

I haven't had this happen to me personally, but I also tend to use

lots of pepper, PLUS salt and acid.



"slimy" bacteria in general aren't necessarily bad. Kefir and viili

are two that can be slimy and are fine. Xanthan gum and glucomannan

are made by slimy stuff too. But kraut should be sour and not slimy

... if it is neither, you don't know what is growing in it.







On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 5:14 PM, france_133<france_133@...> wrote:

> Hi everyone,

>

> My name is France and I am totally new to all this. I need your advice.  I

have been trying to eat more raw food.  5 days ago I decided to try to make

fermented cabbage. I followed a pretty simple recipe. However I did not add as

much salt, just enough to withdraw water out of the cabbage and make sufficient

brine to cover it.  Then, I put the massaged cabbage in a 1/2-gallon mason jar,

pressed it down, and covered it with cabbage leaves. Finally, I put a smaller

mason jar filled with water inside to put pressure and keep the vegetables

submerged in the brine. I put the lid on the bigger jar and let it rest.  On the

second day, the smaller water-filled jar was pushing so much down that the

leaves went up uncovering the vegetables.  The brine was about 1/2 inch above

the vegetables, almost covering them, so they were not totally exposed to the

air. There was also bubbling, but the bubbles where dark yellowish, and when I

opened the big jar to fix the smaller jar inside, the whole thing just bubbled

like crazy. At that point, I added more water (without salt), covered the

vegetables again with the leaves, fixed the smaller jar to have less pressure

over the cabbage, put the lid on the big jar and set to rest for 4 more days.

Today when I opened the jar the smell was strong but not disgusting, however,

the smaller pieces of cabbage are slimy, bigger chunks are crunchy, and all the

brine was viscous.

>

> My question is: Is this kraut eatable? I am not sure if it went bad. I do not

want to eat something full of bad bacteria but I also do not want to throw it

away unless I am sure is bad. I made a lot, and feel guilty just wasting it.

>

>

> I am sorry for the long post,

>

> Thanks much,

>

> France.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>







--

Heather Twist

http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/

Hi all,



On a related note, is sauerkraut ever a cause of botulism? I did a search on

PubMed for sauerkraut and botulism and did not find any information. I also

looked through several of the annual CDC surveillance reports, and asked a CDC

official, but could not get a definitive answer.



An academic website indicated that sauerkraut can become slimy due to some

strains of lactic acid bacteria, yet it did not indicate that this would pose a

health hazard. Leuconostoc spp. are part of the normal floral succession, and

they form particularly slimy colonies on solidified medium.



The procedures that use open crocks indicate that the Kahm layer and any

associated rot must be removed regularly during the fermentation, to just scoop

out any yeasty and/or moldy growth. I tried to avoid this by purchasing a Harsch

crock. I made a large batch in my new Harsch crock, using the low salt recipe of

Kaufman & Schoneck's "making sauerkraut and pickled vegetables at home." It

included 1.5 tablespoons salt for 12 pounds of cabbage, but it was also

inoculated with 1 liter of whey, as directed. The sauerkraut itself did not

appear mushy or smell spoiled, but the brine in which the cabbage fermented

ultimately turned cloudy and viscous. Since I could not find any referenced

information indicating that this really poses a health hazard if consumed, I

decided to try my sauerkraut and the kraut itself was crisp and tasty sour.

After transferring it to a refrigerator for longer term storage, the brine has

lost its slime.



Now, I am not recommending that you eat your kraut. I am merely relaying my

experience.



Does anybody know if there are dipsticks for home use to detect botulinum toxin?



Thanks in advance,



Donna, Southern California

I did some research on this back when, and botulism (clostridium) is a pretty

wimpy bacteria. It mainly grows when there is very little competition,

and also very little salt or acid. So it mainly is an issue in:



1. Improperly canned vegies (the heat kills the other bacteria)

2. Garlic cloves in oil (the garlic kills most of the other bacteria)

3. Fish fermented in plastic (no bacteria except the ones in the fish

guts, which sometimes includes clostridium)

4. Beached whales

5. Human guts, after there have been a lot of antibiotics



Also it needs no air. So the chances of it growing in anything with

live bacteria (like whey) aren't very good, and I haven't heard of any

cases of it.



However, whey does have bacteria in it, like leuconostoc, that aren't

real great for making kraut. Instead of producing acid, they produce

slime. Which can make great dairy products (it's used for making

buttermilk and viili) but personally I think it's a bit weird for

vegies.



Also, in general more acidic ferments are safer. There are other

bacteria besides clostridium that can be problematic. So far on these

lists no one seems to have gotten ill from a ferment that I've heard

of. Still, I keep some bentonite handy just in case. Some bentonite

mixed with water is a great treatment for food poisoning. Pepto Bismol

helps too.



Soooo ... if I wanted to make a low-salt kraut, I'd probably add more

vinegar or lemon juice or other acid (kraut juice from the last batch,

for instance). And/or cabbage juice (has natural nitrates). And/or

cayenne pepper. All of these tend to push the ferment towards the

acid-producing bacteria that makes kraut taste like kraut. But I'd

avoid whey.





On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 6:44 AM, dlmarykwas<donna@...> wrote:

> Hi all,

>

> On a related note, is sauerkraut ever a cause of botulism? I did a search on

PubMed for sauerkraut and botulism and did not find any information. I also

looked through several of the annual CDC surveillance reports, and asked a CDC

official, but could not get a definitive answer.

>

> An academic website indicated that sauerkraut can become slimy due to some

strains of lactic acid bacteria, yet it did not indicate that this would pose a

health hazard. Leuconostoc spp. are part of the normal floral succession, and

they form particularly slimy colonies on solidified medium.

>

> The procedures that use open crocks indicate that the Kahm layer and any

associated rot must be removed regularly during the fermentation, to just scoop

out any yeasty and/or moldy growth. I tried to avoid this by purchasing a Harsch

crock. I made a large batch in my new Harsch crock, using the low salt recipe of

Kaufman & Schoneck's "making sauerkraut and pickled vegetables at home." It

included 1.5 tablespoons salt for 12 pounds of cabbage, but it was also

inoculated with 1 liter of whey, as directed. The sauerkraut itself did not

appear mushy or smell spoiled, but the brine in which the cabbage fermented

ultimately turned cloudy and viscous. Since I could not find any referenced

information indicating that this really poses a health hazard if consumed, I

decided to try my sauerkraut and the kraut itself was crisp and tasty sour.

After transferring it to a refrigerator for longer term storage, the brine has

lost its slime.

>

> Now, I am not recommending that you eat your kraut. I am merely relaying my

experience.

>

> Does anybody know if there are dipsticks for home use to detect botulinum

toxin?

>

> Thanks in advance,

>

> Donna, Southern California

>

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>







--

Heather Twist

http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/

To me, when making sauerkraut or any other fermented vegetable product, it makes

more sense to include whey and a modest amount of salt than to rely upon salt or

acid vinegar or pepper or cabbage juice, hoping that these alternatives (to

direct inoculation) will favor the beneficial over the harmful bacteria. Whey as

a byproduct of fermenting cheese or making kefir etc. includes overwhelming

numbers of the beneficial lactic acid producing bacteria derived from the

starter culture and amplified during the cheese-making process. These large

numbers of beneficial bacteria can help ensure that any harmful bacteria present

in the cabbage or other ingredients are out-numbered. Also, many of the

beneficial bacteria used to ferment milk into cheese are the same as or similar

to those that are ultimately responsible for fermenting cabbage into kraut.



Cabbage that is naturally fermented into kraut due to the actions of the

cabbage's indigeous bacteria undergoes a natural succession; at first coliform

bacteria are favored (coliforms can be pathogenic), then the slimy Leuconostoc

are favored, and finally the lactic acid bacteria such as Lactobacilli

predominate and esentially eliminate the coliforms and Leuconostoc. For better

or for worse, I suspect that the addition of whey might actually reduce the

numbers of coliforms or Leuconostoc or even Clostridium botulinum growing in

one's sauerkraut.



I made one batch of cabbage kraut for a class I taught using a high- salt

no-whey recipe. It turned into a foul smelling slimy mess that I would not go

near. After that, I wasn't comfortable attempting kraut again until I chanced

upon recipes in Nourishing Traditions and in Klaus Kaufmann's Making Sauerkraut

that included whey.



Donna, Southern California

I think that one bad experience is too little on which to based a

lifetime's behaviour.



I have made kraut without whey and it has never gone slimy (nor gone

through a slimy phase). Kraut is the simplest veg to ferment but all I

find all the root veg ferment without probs, without slime and without

whey.



Whey is not a traditional ingredient of kraut or any other fermented

food. They have been made for centuries/millennia without whey and they

can still be made the same way, bacteria not having changed much. You

don't need to add LB via whey just as you don't need a commercial

starter culture to make sourdough. The little bugs are all around you

and they multiply at a rate which makes adding a few at the beginnning

pretty irrelevant.



Sorry if this sounds a bit terse but the difficulties of getting hold of

whey put me off fermenting for a long time when I first got hold of

Nourishing Traditions. I wouldn't want anyone else to delay for the same

reason.



Use it if you've got it and if you want to but you don't need it -- just

as you don't need kefir to make sourdough. You need to add salt and keep

the veg under the water where the air can't get at them. That's it. I

think the simplicity offends us and we want to complexify it. Salt,

clean water and exclude air. That's it.



Sally



dlmarykwas wrote:

> To me, when making sauerkraut or any other fermented vegetable product, it

makes more sense to include whey and a modest amount of salt than to rely upon

salt or acid vinegar or pepper or cabbage juice, hoping that these alternatives

(to direct inoculation) will favor the beneficial over the harmful bacteria.

Whey as a byproduct of fermenting cheese or making kefir etc. includes

overwhelming numbers of the beneficial lactic acid producing bacteria derived

from the starter culture and amplified during the cheese-making process. These

large numbers of beneficial bacteria can help ensure that any harmful bacteria

present in the cabbage or other ingredients are out-numbered. Also, many of the

beneficial bacteria used to ferment milk into cheese are the same as or similar

to those that are ultimately responsible for fermenting cabbage into kraut.

>

> Cabbage that is naturally fermented into kraut due to the actions of the

cabbage's indigeous bacteria undergoes a natural succession; at first coliform

bacteria are favored (coliforms can be pathogenic), then the slimy Leuconostoc

are favored, and finally the lactic acid bacteria such as Lactobacilli

predominate and esentially eliminate the coliforms and Leuconostoc. For better

or for worse, I suspect that the addition of whey might actually reduce the

numbers of coliforms or Leuconostoc or even Clostridium botulinum growing in

one's sauerkraut.

>

> I made one batch of cabbage kraut for a class I taught using a high- salt

no-whey recipe. It turned into a foul smelling slimy mess that I would not go

near. After that, I wasn't comfortable attempting kraut again until I chanced

upon recipes in Nourishing Traditions and in Klaus Kaufmann's Making Sauerkraut

that included whey.

>

> Donna, Southern California

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

> No virus found in this incoming message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.2/2213 - Release Date: 07/01/09

18:07:00

>

>

On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Sally Eva<bobsallyeva@...> wrote:

> I think that one bad experience is too little on which to based a

>  Salt,

> clean water and exclude air. That's it.

>

> Sally



I love the elegance of that statement!



If people want to add whey, and it works for them, sure, go for it.

But I had the same issue: it was too hard for me to deal with whey,

and it didn't add to the result. And sometimes fouled it up. And now I

have an issue with dairy (turns out they were the cause of 20+ years

of migraines).



People have been fermenting cabbage for hundreds of years. They didn't

add whey ... even the people who actually kept cows and also did

cabbage (like, the  Germans).



If you have some particular bacteria you want to breed ... like, say,

the one from kefir grains or your favorite type of yogurt ... cabbage

might be a good place to do that. I do something similar with kefir

beer, because I can't do kefir. The kefir beer gives me the results,

without the casein. But if I could eat the kefir, that would be a lot

more direct (and tasty!).

I would just add that there are no known reported cases of food-borne illness

from fermented vegetables. Obviously you don't want to eat something that looks,

smells, or tastes bad or does not seem to have fermented properly, but the risk

of illness from coliforms or botulism seems nil.



Richard

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: dlmarykwas

   To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2009 4:32 PM

   Subject: [MN] Avoiding Whey, Was Slimy Sauerkraut











   To me, when making sauerkraut or any other fermented vegetable product, it

makes more sense to include whey and a modest amount of salt than to rely upon

salt or acid vinegar or pepper or cabbage juice, hoping that these alternatives

(to direct inoculation) will favor the beneficial over the harmful bacteria.

Whey as a byproduct of fermenting cheese or making kefir etc. includes

overwhelming numbers of the beneficial lactic acid producing bacteria derived

from the starter culture and amplified during the cheese-making process. These

large numbers of beneficial bacteria can help ensure that any harmful bacteria

present in the cabbage or other ingredients are out-numbered. Also, many of the

beneficial bacteria used to ferment milk into cheese are the same as or similar

to those that are ultimately responsible for fermenting cabbage into kraut.



   Cabbage that is naturally fermented into kraut due to the actions of the

cabbage's indigeous bacteria undergoes a natural succession; at first coliform

bacteria are favored (coliforms can be pathogenic), then the slimy Leuconostoc

are favored, and finally the lactic acid bacteria such as Lactobacilli

predominate and esentially eliminate the coliforms and Leuconostoc. For better

or for worse, I suspect that the addition of whey might actually reduce the

numbers of coliforms or Leuconostoc or even Clostridium botulinum growing in

one's sauerkraut.



   I made one batch of cabbage kraut for a class I taught using a high- salt

no-whey recipe. It turned into a foul smelling slimy mess that I would not go

near. After that, I wasn't comfortable attempting kraut again until I chanced

upon recipes in Nourishing Traditions and in Klaus Kaufmann's Making Sauerkraut

that included whey.



   Donna, Southern California











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I will also subscribe to the "no whey" is necessary for most ferments

camp.  I started fermenting with whey because of the Nourishing

Traditions but some time after realized that I liked the cabbage

fermentation with salt only and other interesting flavours: ginger,

carrots, caraway, etc.  much better. And have never had a bad batch

(some taste better than others though!).



The one ferment that I sometimes have problems with is Beet Kvass and

it requires whey or another inoculant (I have tried with sauerkraut

juice, probiotic pills and pickle juice).  Does anybody know why it

forms a film of white stuff on top sometimes?  Is it mold?



Patricia



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think the "white stuff" has been discussed from time to time

and usually it is a kind of yeast. My Mom described that it was

often on their homemade pickles in the past (though I haven't

gotten it). EM gets it too, or something like it.



Mold is typically "fuzzy" and it smells like mold.

Or at least the kind of mold that ruins ferments

does ... the kind of mold that turns rice into sake

or beans into miso is yummier.



Anyway, yeast tends to grow when there is more sugar

available, and beets are loaded with sugar. If there are

enough LAB around, they will drown out the yeast,

which is the theory behind the whey or other innoculants.

Some yeasts don't taste very good either.







On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 6:12 AM, Patricia Meyer<b-healthy@...> wrote:

>

> I will also subscribe to the "no whey" is necessary for most ferments

> camp.  I started fermenting with whey because of the Nourishing

> Traditions but some time after realized that I liked the cabbage

> fermentation with salt only and other interesting flavours: ginger,

> carrots, caraway, etc.  much better. And have never had a bad batch

> (some taste better than others though!).

>

> The one ferment that I sometimes have problems with is Beet Kvass and

> it requires whey or another inoculant (I have tried with sauerkraut

> juice, probiotic pills and pickle juice).  Does anybody know why it

> forms a film of white stuff on top sometimes?  Is it mold?

>

> Patricia

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>







--

Heather Twist

http://eatingoffthefoodgrid.blogspot.com/

I concur on the beet kvass Patricia, it needs a starter to taste right. I

haven't found a good replacement for whey, I tried rejuvalac when I had some

around and that didn't do it. What do you like best when you don't have whey?



Richard

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: Patricia Meyer

   To: Microbial_Nutrition@yahoogroups.com

   Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:12 AM

   Subject: [MN] Re: Avoiding Whey, Was Slimy Sauerkraut













   I will also subscribe to the "no whey" is necessary for most ferments

   camp. I started fermenting with whey because of the Nourishing

   Traditions but some time after realized that I liked the cabbage

   fermentation with salt only and other interesting flavours: ginger,

   carrots, caraway, etc. much better. And have never had a bad batch

   (some taste better than others though!).



   The one ferment that I sometimes have problems with is Beet Kvass and

   it requires whey or another inoculant (I have tried with sauerkraut

   juice, probiotic pills and pickle juice). Does anybody know why it

   forms a film of white stuff on top sometimes? Is it mold?



   Patricia



   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]