Police oust candidates from Guelph School debate

JCT: The first press from the Guelph election race:

Guelph riding has a full slate
September 23, 2008
Rob O'Flanagan
Mercury Staff
http://news.guelphmercury.com/article/384351

GUELPH
When Guelph's federal byelection was torpedoed Sept. 7, all
advance poll votes went down with it. Elections Canada is
reminding anyone who cast an early vote in the doomed
byelection that they'll have to do it all over again for the
Oct. 14 general election. "The byelections were cancelled,
so people will have to cast their vote in the 40th general
election as per normal," Elections Canada spokesperson John
McKay said.

The Guelph riding had 10 candidates vying for the seat at
the time of this writing, representing a broad political
spectrum. They include, in alphabetical order: Philip Bender
(Libertarian Party of Canada), Manuel Couto (Marxist-
Leninist Party of Canada), Drew Garvie (Communist Party of
Canada), Tom King (New Democratic Party), Kornelis Klevering
(Marijuana Party), Gloria Kovach (Conservative Party of
Canada), Karen Levenson (Animal Alliance Environment Voters
Party of Canada), Mike Nagy (Green Party of Canada), John
Turmel (Independent), Frank Valeriote (Liberal Party of
Canada).

Turmel, who lists his occupation as a professional gambler,
is from Brantford. He ran in the Brantford riding during the
2006 federal election. He said he chose to run in Guelph
because it is a short commute, and because he has a better
chance of getting a so-called local employment trading
system started here, whereby people pay off their government
debts through work.
roflanagan@...
---

He's baaaaack
The Canadian Press
Sep 24 2008
http://news.guelphmercury.com/News/article/384916

The world's losingest politician is at it again.

John Turmel is running in his 68th campaign as an
independent, this time in Guelph.

So far he's zero for 67, including 66 losses. (He was a
candidate in the Sept. 8 Guelph byelection, but that was
cancelled and doesn't count as a loss.)

Turmel, who lists his profession as "professional gambler,"
made the Guinness Book of Records in the 1990s for the most
election loses. Back then, his string was only 40 defeats.

He has run for municipal offices, and provincial and federal
seats in several provinces - and he even had his own
Abolitionist Party for a while.

His best showing was 373 votes in the Ontario riding of
Brant in the 2004 federal election. His worst was 30 votes
in Montreal's Outremont byelection last year.

JCT: Actually, my worst was Broadview-Greenwood with 16.
---

JCT: Same article went across Canada as:

http://www.thespec.com/News/CanadaWorld/article/440220
ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL
September 24, 2008
The Canadian Press
When will he take a hint?

http://www.thespec.com/article/439995
Shenanigans of Canada's politicians

http://thechronicleherald.ca/News/1080727.html
He's 0-for-67, but Turmel is at it again

http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/419694
He's 0-for-67, but this candidate keeps trying

JCT: The first election debate took place at Guelph U. like
during the byelection. I've posted the whole thing at Google
Videos:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5789458486549481574&hl=en-CA

JCT: Now comes the debate at the Guelph Vocational and
Collegiate Institute. I only found out about it the night
before when Kase Klevering told me. I said I'd be there and
he said he would too though I didn't realize we had not been
invited.

http://guelphmercury.blogs.com/guelphvotes/2008/09/index.html
Meet the candidates today
All Candidates' Debate
Noon to 1 p.m.
Centennial CVI 289 College Avenue West, Guelph

JCT: It was actually slated for 2pm. When I got there, I
noticed a Guelph police car in the parking lot. It did not
bode well. The auditopium was still pretty empty. I went
about setting up my videocamera. When Frank Valeriote came
in, he asked if I was aware of the format which only allowed
4 candidates. I spoke to the lady teacher in charge. She
told me it was not an "all candidates" debate and that I had
not been invited. I said okay and exited the hall wanting to
do my protest once the students had arrived.

Outside, I met Kase and told him to go urge the other
candidates to get us on the debate while I hid out. A few
minutes after two, I was looking in the crack of a doorway
when it opened and a male teacher came out. I asked him
where the toilet was. He started to point then told me to
follow him because "the toilets in a high school are pretty
small."

I should have suspected something fishy and turned around. I
realized I had blundered when he led me to the principal's
office with the police officer and principal standing there.
The principal told me I was not invited to participate in
the debate. I quickly nodded before he could warn me that if
I didn't leave, I'd be charged with trespassing, and asked
the cop if I could go get my stuff. Sure.

So I proceeded back into the auditorium toward the stage
where I'd left my briefcase. The lady teacher was carrying
it to me. I accepted it and continued on up the stage and
took a stand right in front of the four candidates and
started protesting the lack of democracy out loud.

The police officer wasn't sure what to do about a candidate
refusing to leave a debate and called for reinforcement. I
continued to urge my opponents to stand up for equal
treatment to no avail.

Finally, two other officers entered the auditorium and the
original officer came forward to tell me to come with him. I
said sure, came down off the stage, went over to get my
videocamera. That's when I realized that they had turned it
off before doing the dirty deed. So proud of what they were
doing that they didn't want any cameras.

And then I was escorted out of the school. Five minutes
later, Kase Klevering was escorted out too. It was a real
asset having him there to be ejected too.

The Mercury cameraman must have really done some gymnastics
to get his shot used in the next day's newspaper. But first
here's the instant news:

Police remove candidates from school debate
http://news.guelphmercury.com/article/386687

Independent John Turmel
Marijuana Party candidate Kornelis Klevering
October 01, 2008
GuelphMercury.com

GUELPH - Guelph Police have removed candidates from a debate
being held at Guelph CVI.

Independent John Turmel and Marijuana Party candidate
Kornelis Klevering were escorted out of the building after
they were informed they weren't welcome at the high school.

Turmel was removed by police from a debate held by the
chamber of commerce during the byelection.
Get more election news and views at GuelphVotes
---

Fringe parties make voices heard at debate
http://news.guelphmercury.com/article/387082
October 2, 2008
Thana Dharmarajah, Mercury staff

JCT: Sure, the voices of the fringe parties were heard
saying "ouch" for being excluded but not saying what their
programs would be. Actually, since the students had not yet
arrived, the voices of the minor candidates were not made
heard at all.

TD: Independent candidate John Turmel says getting kicked
out of a high school debate does little to teach students
about democracy.

"What kind of example are you setting for the students?" he
questioned Guelph Collegiate Vocational Institute principal
Wes Coffey yesterday.

Turmel and Marijuana party candidate Kornelis Klevering were
escorted off school property by three Guelph Police
officers.

Turmel came into the high school auditorium earlier and was
told by a teacher he wasn't invited. He said he would excuse
himself.

JCT: I wonder what that means? I never said I'd leave.

TD: Several minutes later when a few students filed into the
front row, he reappeared on stage.

"I've got the right to answer your questions," Turmel
shouted. "How dare you influence this election in this way?"

Several minutes later, he got off the stage

JCT: I did not get off the stage. I was ordered off the
stage and taken into custody for removal from the premises.

TD: and was outraged that someone turned off a video camera
he had set up in a corner.

JCT: So all I got were the few minutes of setting up where
you see the teacher who told me I couldn't participate.
Nothing much else.
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-8518969902178743289&hl=en-CA

TD: During Guelph's federal byelection campaign, Turmel was
removed by police from a Guelph Chamber of Commerce debate.

Following Turmel's exit at Guelph Collegiate, Klevering
insisted to officers it was within his right to remain.

All of the candidates were invited to an earlier debate at
Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic School, Klevering said. He
asked why that wasn't the case yesterday, but the principal
and police were unconvinced and Klevering left.

JCT: Cheap approbation for the principal. The principal was
ordering the cops to remove the candidates, the police had
no reason for being convinced or unconvinced. Sure, make it
sound like the cops agreed with the undemocratic actions of
the principal but it's a wholly baseless assumption. My cop
felt terrible having to take a political candidate into
custody for removal from a candidates' debate and I doubt
the others were any more enthusiastic about their parts.

TD: Just as Klevering was leaving, Green party candidate
Mike Nagy stepped offstage to object, but he was directed
back by an officer.

JCT: Can you imagine what they would have done had he been
standing with me in the photo while there was a chance his
action could be of any use. Once I'm gone, he had lost his
power and they direct him to obey.

TD: Coffey said the debate, which included the four
mainstream candidates, was by invitation only.

JCT: Doesn't say why and where they get the logic for
excluding most of the field while the other two high schools
have all the candidates.

TD: Turmel's move to set up a video camera and Klevering
handing out pamphlets was another reason they were asked to
leave, Coffey said.

JCT: Since he didn't have a good reason for not letting us
participate, he had to find a new pretext for the exclusion.
Though there was no problem with my videocamera at Our Lady
of Lourdes, setting up a videocamera at GCVI is reason for
barring? And a candidate handing out flyers is his second
good reason for not letting Klevering participate after his
first good reason was left undefined.

TD: The other candidates were allowed to make pamphlets
available for information, he said, but not hand them out to
students.

JCT: The other "invited candidates." The non-invited
candidates never got the chance.

TD: As officers and school officials dealt with the fringe
candidates,

JCT: Ah, yes, the candidates were "fringe," the ubiquitous
insult that rationalizes the exclusion. No need to hear
fringe ideas since the orthodox ones are doing so well.
Well, though a minority opinion may not be right, a right
opinion on a novel problem always starts with a minority of
one.

TD: nearly 800 students were held outside in the hallways.
The debate was delayed for about 15 minutes, then resumed.

JCT: So the students can get a taste of the democratic
process once they didn't know that some of their choices had
been eliminated.
---

http://cfruelectionradio.wordpress.com/2008/10/02/the-debate-in-french-laissez-f\
aire-harper-v-the-rest/

Wednesday October 2, 2008...9:55 am
The Debate in French - "Laissez-Faire" Harper v. The Rest

I thoroughly enjoyed this debate. It was far better than
previous ones with pumped-up leaders at podiums trying to
shout over each other to make themselves heard. As if that
would somehow help them get their message across.

This would be a format that Guelph could emulate but would
we be able to find a table big enough for 10 candidates?

John "The Engineer" Turmel would likely stand and shout to
deliver his points so may be it wouldn't work unless we
restricted the debate to the four major parties. But then
that would hardly be democratic.

As an aside, there is something a little disconcerting about
seeing Marijuana Party candidate Kornelius "Brother Case"
Klevering and Independent John Turmel escorted out of a
school debate at GCVI because they weren't invited. What
message does that send to our young people? I can understand
John getting escorted out, that's part of his modus
operandi, but Brother Case?

JCT: Trying to get excluded from debates is my modus?

Case is as mild mannered and easy going as you can get. I'm
sure it is no coincidence that he is running for the
Marijuana Party. He would also have added to the debate. His
comments have always been very sensible and to the point.

JCT: And since Turmel isn't as mild-mannered, I deserve to
be excluded. Get cheated and make a noise about it, you
deserve it. Get cheated and be mild-mannered about it, you
don't deserve it even though you still get it.

Some discussion on the Guelph blogs:

Posted by: Paul Atarsus | October 01, 2008 at 03:58 PM
http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/625204/34041233
Listed below are links to weblogs that reference
Police remove candidates from debate:
I can understand John having to be removed, but why "Brother
Case"?

JCT: He can understand removing one but not the other. It's
right for one and wrong for the other.
---

Posted by: Realist | October 01, 2008 at 04:32 PM
Mr. Atarsus:
This was a lesson in reality for the Students at GCVI. They
now have seen "Police State Democracy" in action.
Debates should be open to all candidates who have filed and
paid their nomination fee. To restrict some candidates is
nothing more than censorship.
I hope that the future leaders of our society have a better
understanding of how under the veneer of Democracy, there
really is none.
Another sad day of Censorship in Guelph.
---

Posted by: Amanda | October 01, 2008 at 08:20 PM
I was there for the debate in GCVI today, (I'm a student)
and I was shocked to learn now that there were 2 more
candidates who weren't allowed to debate.

JCT: Remember, most students don't even know about the
candidates they weren't allowed to see or hear. That's how
censorship works, you don't know what you're not getting.

It was already interesting, but now I can't help but wonder
what they would have said in response to all the questions
students asked. My main issue though, is why were they not
allowed to debate?

JCT: Any bets this question never gets answered? We'll see
if anyone ever explains why Principal Coffee had the power
to fix the election odds.

It makes sense that these other candidates have little
support compared to the Conservatives or Liberals, but that
still dosen't justify their absence.
---

Posted by: Realist | October 01, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Samantha:
I hate to say it, but get used to the weak-kneed approach of
the Guelph Police Force.
In Guelph: -
-You can camp illegally as a protest group on St. George's
Square,
-You can as an activist group have illegal protests and burn
Cops in Effigy.
-You can illegaly camp on City property for 13 months.
And nothing will happen to you.
But just try to run for Office as a Legal fringe candidate,
and boy how tough the Guelph Cops suddenly become.
John Turmel was protesting his and other fringe candidates
exclusion from the Chamber of Commerce "All-Candidates"
Debate at the River-Run Centre. He was threatened by Guelph
Cops with trespassing if he did not leave immediately.

JCT: It was the occupier of the place who ordered the police
to threaten me with trespassing, not the police who were
only doing their jobs, and unhappily at that.

Can you think of anything more ridiculous than being
threatened with trespass on City-owned public property?

JCT: Fascinating argument.

I wonder if he and the MJ Party rep were also threatened
with a trespass charge on another piece of public property -
GCVI.

JCT: Yes, we were. It's the only charge that can force me to
leave.

Too bad the cops didn't know about the trespass charge on
the two trespasses I have mentioned above.
So based on the above your assignment if you are willing is:
-Define "All-Candidates" Meeting in Guelph.

JCT: The fixers don't call them "all candidates" meetings,
they call them "candidates" meetings which they say gives
the right to include only those they want to help win.

-Write an essay on the effective administration of the
Trespass laws by the Guelph Police force
-Write an essay on "When Public Property is not Public"
-Write an essay on the Guelph Police motto "To Serve and
Protect" with critical comment on its effectiveness.
These compositions should consist of words of two syllables
or less to ensure comprehension by the Senior Police
Officers.

JCT: We need the comprehension of the fixers, the principal
and the Chamber of Commerce, not the police who have no
choice in the matter.

It is nice to see that High School students such as you are
concerned, involved and willing to speak out against
injustice. Believe me as you travel through life, you will
have many opportunities to do so.
Remember, it was not the system that allowed Green party
Leader May at the Federal Leaders Debate, it was the public
outcry that did.
Posted by: Realist | October 01, 2008 at 10:58 PM
---

Posted by: Robyn | October 01, 2008 at 11:33 PM
Oh for God's sakes. It was on school board property, it was
up to the organizers at the school to decide who to invite.
Period.

JCT: This person is sick. Period.

If they decide not to invite candidate A, that's their
right, as it's their debate, it's their rules.

JCT: Principals can unfairly influence elecltions because
it's their schools.

The school is private property, the uninvited candidates are
not allowed on school property, it's considered trespassing.

JCT: This person is bent.

I for one demand that schools keep everyone who is not
invited out of schools. I have kids there; I want them as
safe as possible, including keeping uninvited people away.

JCT: This person is really twisted.

The police would not be acting of their own accord, so grow
up and stop playing the friggin victim here. The school
board would have had to have called the police in.

JCT: That's right. Only the school board had the power to
fix the election by choosing which candidates to prefer.

How about the fringe candidates hold a debate at their
expense in money and time and invite everyone they want,
instead of whining about injustices.

JCT: Sure, the prefereed candidates get the free resources
of the state to score points, high school auditorium,
captive audience, but that's okay because the cheated can
still go out and hold their own debate with no resources.
This person is democratically-challenged.

If you have an issue with who was invited ask your teachers.

JCT: That's right. And I bet no one will ask Coffee to
explain why everyone else was excluded. Robyn's ethically
sick.
---

Posted by: Realist | October 02, 2008 at 10:53 AM
Robyn: Are you the same Robyn who on other Blogs referred to
other people as "Idiots" just because you disagree with
their point of view?

JCT: Probably, Robyn's sick.

So you don't seem to think that in High School students
should be encouraged to respect diversity in all its forms,
and to respect the rights of candidates (and citizens) to be
able to communicate freely. And you seem to think that these
candidates are a threat to your children, and you do not
want them exposed to these people with their atrocious
points of view. And your children must be taught very early
in life to shun undesirables lest their "values" be twisted.

JCT: He sure is twisted.

Students should be encouraged to participate in the
political process, regardless of where this is on the
political spectrum.

JCT: They think they did. They don't know what they didn't
get to see. They don't know what they missed. That's the
beauty of censorship, you don't know it's being done to you.

You reflect the mindless George Bush/Steven Harper far right
dictatorship attitudes which are now wreaking financial
Havoc on the US economy. Is that what you want for Canada,
"Big Oil" rules, supported by fools!

JCT: He sure has intellectual problems though I don't think
they're on a par with Bush/Harper.

The other school allowed all candidates to participate in
the debates, and as far as we can see it produced no wave of
MJ smokers, nor are a bunch of student activists plotting to
reduce/eliminate the Federal Government. the students have
much more common sense than you give them credit for. Too
bad none of it rubbed off on the GCVI principal.

JCT: But what we learn is that there are sick puppies like
Robyn and Coffee out there in positions of power to corrupt
the education of the children in their charge.

Keep working on your Kids, I am sure that they will soon be
closed minded and politically bigoted much to your delight.

JCT: Not only his children but many other children have
gotten a corrupted view of the democratic process. Just
getting them used to not getting the full menu early.

OK now you can hurl invectives at me.
---

A comment had been deleted from this post.
Comments that attack another reader, i.e. name calling, will
not be tolerated. It's unnecessary, especially when there's
a good point to be made. To all readers: if you have
concerns about a comment or post, please e-mail
editor@....
Posted by: The Mercury | October 02, 2008 at 04:47 PM
---

Not sure what was deleted from 'realists' latest email (and
I don't need to know), but to comment on his/her previous
comment, i totally agree. the police would not be acting of
their own accord, so it's no use blaming them for anything.
they are 'public servants' and respond to whatever the
public asks of them.
Posted by: Anne | October 03, 2008 at 03:03 PM
---

sorry, my agreement was to 'Robyn's' comments, not
'realist's.
-------------------------------

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=15700685
Guelph Highschool Debate

Pretty crazy stuff. I go to this highschool, and this is the
highlight of my year so far.
---

Today, 06:53 AM #2
Gobias Industries
Sid and Pat...2010??
Just kidding man, but high school hatred rocks!..
GO LOURDES!!!
To the point, it should be by invitation only....a few years
ago I was the Official Agent of an independent candidate
because he wanted the experience of running for office,
there was no way he should have been allowed into invite-
only debates and the same goes for the leaders of fringe
parties...

Today, 10:59 AM #3
discostu
Global Moderator
John Turmel is still around? I remember him running for
various offices in Ottawa 10-15 years ago. A quick google
check, and, it appears it's the same guy. He's noteworthy
for two things:
1) Being in the guinness book of world records for having
lost the most elections in history (not a joke, look it up).
2) A history of illegal gambling charges
This incident likely doesn't crack the top 20 in stupid
stunts he's pulled.
---

Gobias Industries
Sid and Pat...2010??
Yeah, my buddy is a journalist in Guelph and just filled me
in on how big of a tool Turmel is..
Turns out he doesn't even live in Guelph, but drives in to
these types of events to stir up ****...
Pathetic in my books...
---

JCT: So the teachers and journalists get to tell the
students about me, I don't. Finally,

Voters who see such corruption going on and do nothing
deserve what they get, these kinds of people teaching their
children. Har har har har.