JCT: I know the Carotas, their book provided me much of my
religious argument.

>Subject: [ijccr] Usury and War
>by: "Ronald A. Miller" justron@... navyman3269436
>Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:49 am ((PST))

RAM: Usury and War
Given the usurious state of our nation's current monetary
and banking system, it was great for the audience at
Northland Anti-War Coalition's forum, "Mobilizing People of
Faith Against War,"last Friday night to hear the response of
a Diocese of Duluth Catholic priest to his Church's policy
regarding the present-day Roman Catholic Church stand on
usury.

JCT: Bet no one defined the difference between usury and
excessive interest.

RAM: In contrast to Rev. Peter Lambert's response, Dr. Sabah
Alwan, a member of the Twin Ports Islamic Center and
Associate Professor CSS gave an excellent overview regarding
how his religion handles usury (they call it reba) in
today's corporate business world. Might usury, a sin against
God, be the underlying cause of the moral conflict going on
between the United States and other Islamic nation's that
view our monetary and banking system as sinful?

JCT: Could playing musical chairs to the death by the use of
"mort-gage" "death-gamble" rules be the cause of real
conflict going on everywhere?

RAM: Always curious about this issue and wanting to learn
more, I couldn't pass up the opportunity when, as a member
of Loaves and Fishes Catholic Worker in March 1994, I had
the honor of representing our community at a conference in
Malinalco, Mexico, sponsored by Mario and Estelle Carota of
Christian Economic Networks.

JCT: Hope you learned their lesson.

RAM: Since then, an excellent book on usury has been
produced by the Carotas that teaches the truth about usury
and how it is undermining the American experiment in
constitutional self-government by keeping the public in debt
bondage paying excessive interest on over $8 trillion worth
(part of it for the Iraq War) of public bonded debt,
mortgage loans and credit cards.
http://www.dsinet.com.mx/cen/

JCT: Debt slavery under the proverbial "yoke of oppression."

RAM: The following passage from this book entitled, USURY,
was excerpted here to illustrate how usury has changed in
recent history with the advent of Calvinist theology that
affirmed interest taking on money loaned for business
purposes to the elect and might have been offensive to Rev.
Lambert when I posed it to him during the forum.

JCT: Before they go on to explain how the Christian Clergy
has lost its way, the Carotas could never get the Pope to
listen, I'd point out that my indictment of the Christian
Clergy is not "hearing without hearing and seeing without
seeing," Jesus said they'd forever be hypnotized that way
when discussing interest-powered Mammon. Using interest-
powered poker chips makes people mental, so said Jesus.

"The original definition of usury is the taking of any money
over and above the principal of the loan. This was held by
the Catholic Church until 1821. Now, however, the modern
definition of usury is excessive interest. The problem is
how is excessive interest to be defined. It is a little
known fact that modern money lenders charge as much as 10%
to 50% per day. This amounts to annual rates running as high
as 2,000%. This is, incredibly, in a world where 65% of the
world's population earns less than $2000 per year. That is 4
billion people (Harvard Business Review, Sept. 2002)."

In addition to the sin of usury,

JCT: Now he's going to go off into a waste of time.
Involuntary unemployment and inflation are caused by usury,
nothing else, and bringing in non-relevant stuff hurts the
overall presentation.


RAM: the United States is also guilty of severing its dollar
in 1971 from the fixed weight of gold it promised (1944
Bretton Woods Agreement) when its dollar became the world's
reserve currency in the fixed exchange rate system used for
centuries that gave transparency and honesty to the
settlement of trade imbalances between nations. As U.S.
dollar inflation mounts, other nations are beginning to
consider using the more stable Euro as the world's reserve
currency in trade for oil.

JCT: You just have to read David Astle's Babylonian Woe or
my Book report to see how the gold standard of money has
worked throughout the millennia. The Carotas are speaking of
the "Time Standard of Money" (Google for it), not the gold
or silver or any other metal standard of money. Metallic
rock is irrelevant to the stability of the credits, the
chips, and the Carotas were not metal rock advocates.

RAM: With the natural limit of the just weight and measure
(Deut. 25:15) now missing from money through legal measures
in Congress,

JCT: No need to link to gold when linking to time is even
more stable.

RAM: the natural cost of the remaining yet unextracted
natural resources has been removed. They have become
artificially cheap and are no longer protected against the
predatory limited liability stock corporation's plunder for
their profit. Freed from the U.S. Constitution's constraint
of requiring states to not use anything but gold and silver
as a monetary measure of economic value, the high-tech rate
of extraction of these natural resources for commodity
production, including human labor, is increasing as the
effects of global warming loom on the horizon.

JCT: Or global cooling causing insufficient evaporation of
oceans to provide rain to replace the ice in the north...

RAM: It has caused leading environmentalists and politicians
to object to the increased rate of emissions coming from
automobiles and coal-fired electric generating plants that
is having the effect of shortening the life of God's good
creation whether it was created by intelligent design or
big-banged into existence. Minnesota Senator Yvonne Prettner
Solon joined ELCA Bishop Peter Strommen recently (10-28-07)
at a public forum entitled, "Global Warming Solutions," held
at the downtown Holiday Inn that featured Will Steger, polar
explorer. It appears as if the institutional church and
politicians are in bed with the usurers as the evil
experiment in bank-created fiat dollars monetized from
interest-bearing debt nears its end.

JCT: Since they insist on collateral before they issue loans
of money, there is no such thing as "fiat" unbacked money.
The church and politicians please the usurers no more than
the yellow-rock advocates.
Regardless, they accept that there's not enough money to
save ourselves and we can't spend more money without causing
Shift A inflation. But what if it's Shift B inflation?

RAM: Ever since the Northland Action for Peace and Justice
(NAPJ) started in 2001, I've been standing on the corner of
Lake Ave. and Superior St. 4:30PM Wednesdays holding a sign
that reads, "Put Money Back under Law" on one side and, "End
Corporate rule for Real Peace," on the other side. I hand
out a brochure that describes the American Liberty Dollar
(ALD), a dollar backed up by a fixed weight of silver and
gold.

JCT: He's picketing for the provocative Liberty Dollar
while, for 5 years, on Interest-rate-setting day, high noon
saw me on the corner of Bank and Wellington Streets in
Ottawa picketing the Bank of Canada and then across the
street at 2pm saw me picketing the House of Commons with my
sign that said "Abolish Interest Rates" on one side and
"INFLATION & UNEMPLOYMENT = r / (1+r), r= % interest
SOLUTION r = 0% SOCIAL CREDIT."

I used to carry "HONK if Interest is Criminal" before the
police threatened to charge me with disturbing the peace.
So, I had no need to mention need for any rock, silver,
yellow, or in metal-money advocates' heads.

RAM: I've informed President Dave Ross of the Duluth Chamber
of Commerce about it and contacted several merchants, St.
Louis County Commissioners and city councilors including
Greg Gilbert about adopting it as a local currency in Duluth
as the Federal Reserve's dollar continues toward its
inflationary death.

JCT: Boy, after the busts for being too much like real
money, they must really be leery of you. That's what they
get for calling them dollars and not Hours.

RAM: During Sharla Gardner's victory party at Carmody's on
election night I approached outgoing city councilor Russ
Stewart about accepting silver in trade for his goods at his
Robin Goodfellow store. He said YES.

JCT: Sure, that's not illegal even if issuing them may be. .

RAM: Unfortunately, last Wednesday, the FBI and Secret
Service raided the Liberty Dollar organization and
confiscated all the gold and silver Liberty Dollars backed
by a fixed weight of gold, silver and copper they had in
stock ready to ship.

JCT: Har har har har. Ithaca Hours, Boulder Hours, they al
used paper tokens and no one raided them.

RAM: My order was among the Liberty Dollars they confiscated
so I've signed on to a class action lawsuit against the
federal government. For more on this story, go to:
www.libertydollar.org
http://www.nysun.com/article/66542?page_no=1
http://reason.com/blog/show/123553.html
Ronald A. Miller, www.myspace.com/realpeace3

JCT: Yes, join Ronald in raising funds to pay lawyers to
fight off the Feds until you go broke.

How sad to link the Carotas' fight to educate the Roman
Catholic Clergy to the Judas Goat sheep-dipped Liberty
Dollar gang? The Carotas were honest teachers against usury
to their unheeding church, abolitionists of usury, not
switchers to silver rock.


--
Abolitionist Debt Slave Leader John C."The Banking Systems Engineer"
Turmel for UNILETS interest-free time-based currency in U.N. resolution
C6 to Governments in the http://www.un.org/millennium/declaration.htm
http://www.cyberclass.net/turmel USENET blog: alt.fan.john-turmel