Has she seen a Dr.?  What was the outcome?


--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "Scott" <scottissue43@...> wrote:
>
> --- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "joyvanderp" <joyvanderp@> wrote:
> >
> > I gave birth to my first child in Novebmer.  Ever since then, I
have
> > been completely incontinent.  I have no control of my bladder and
> have
> > been wearing diapers.  I joke that my baby and I have the same
> > underwear.  Only, it's not really funny.  I'm miserable and am
> afraid
> > there is no cure.  I don't even feel myself peeing when I do pee,
I
> > just feel a gush sometimes and that's how I know I am peeing.  So
> > wearing a diaper is a big must.  I have an appt. with a
> urogynecologist
> > in a couple weeks and I am willing to do surgery to fix this if
> > necessary.  I'm just afraid even that won't help.  I don't want
to
> live
> > the rest of my life like this.
> >
> My girlfriend has been incontinent for the past year after giving
> birth. She wears diapers 24/7 and she manages just fine. I bought
her
> the Secure X-Plus diapers from the Secure Personal care products.
> These Diapers hold up for about 10 hours or so. She is 30 yrs old
and
> has gotten use to fact that she has to wear diapers. Plus these
> diapers are pretty thick, but there not crickley when she walks. I
do
> help her out alot and give her support all the way.
>

"briefs" "underwear" ect    -------Original Message-------   From: Rachelle Date: 12/31/2007 12:20:38 AM To: Incont@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Incont] Re: Incontinence protection and changing   thanks for this list and your bravery to be honest.  You do know the brain dehydrates, too? If you don't like the word "diaper", what word would you like instead? ???? <disdiaperboy@hotmail.com> wrote: okay time for the truth about me 1) While I prefer wear protection, my family and job do not allow it. 2) Most of the time I handle my incontinence with dehydration and using the rest room and ungodly amount of time. 3) When I use dehydration I sometimes have no accidents. 4) I hate catheters (foley, texas, or indwelling), they cause even more UTIs in me 5) I have NEVER had a diaper rash (this includes when I was a baby) 6) My parents have a rule, no one over the age of 2 can be in "diapers" in the house 7) Work says "diapers" are unsanitary and would prefer I used a Texas style catheter 8) I hate when adults call what they wear "diapers," I hate at the hospital when the employees call them that, we are adults and diserve some dignity in life. 9) I mostly use either assurance overnights or kendall wings (size medium) 10) While not an AB, I do have childish tendencies. I am not an AB because, very basically put, I HATE SEXUAL STUFF (I am 24, a virgin and will be one till some time as I want a hild in my life) 11) You got a problem with who I am FUCK OFF. I am here to support people not be abused like I am in real life. 12) I am a tech in a hospital, an EMT, and a nursing student (Hope to be a nurse practioner). I also hold degrees in computer programming, speech language pathology, and religion. 13) I am actually incontinent and I HATE IT, it is getting worse. For those that wish they were incontinent to be babies again, It sucks so much there are times it has made me want to kill myself 14) When I can I like to change every 4-6 hours. On a bad day I can only pull 2 (so if you know a inexpensive but good thing that woudl help I would liek to here)   Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Amen.

--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "Lee" <dev@...> wrote:
>
> I don't usually post to this group, but I will say the majority of
postings
> to this group pertain to discussions about whether or not AB-type people
> should be posting or not.
>
> Here's an idea: why don't people stop putting so much emphasis on
who has
> "the right" to post and get back to talking about incontinence?
Interesting
> subjects and ideas relating to incontinence foster better
discussion.  If no
> one has anything to say but put down AB's, perhaps that's a sign
that this
> group is dying of boredom? Everyone that has joined this group did
so for
> that reason and that reason may not be the same as everyone else's.
  My god,
> do we really want everyone being the same as everyone else?
>
> If you don't like someone's post about the hint of being an AB, then
ignore
> it and don't respond and you'll see the problem will take care of
itself.
> E-mail can be deleted rather easily.  If the post is too over the
top, I'm
> sure they will hear about it.  If 90% of this group really are AB's in
> disguise and a few people of the remaining 10% are doing all the
> complaining, then you are outnumbered anyway, and you should go join
another
> mailing list where you'll be happier.
>
> I think its time you all stop the negativity; negativity does not
foster any
> support and this is supposed to be a support group.
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Incont@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Incont@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of
> babyvamp@...
>   Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 4:34 PM
>   To: Incont@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [Incont] Re: Assuming people are AB/DL is very innappropriate
>
>
>   Hello All,
>
>     I don't think it's fair that you assume that because someone has the
> word baby in their id that they are in either of those groups. I
very dear
> friend that I am no longer able to visit gave this ID to me while
she was
> helping nurse me back to health. I have visited 2 of their parties
over the
> past 6 years to try and figure out they are so comfortable with wearing
> diapers while I struggle with it still. I have no inclination to try
any of
> that stuff again but will deny the friendships I have made with some of
> them.  I still see a few of them from time to time and some make me
> uncomfortable with the way they act, but that is their problem to
deal with.
> I hold nothing against anyone no matter what their name is so you
assuming
> someone is one or another type sounds very much like segregation to me.
> Before you leap, you should always check for rocks, because this
soldier for
> one does not appreciate your stigma driven attitudes. I hope all of
you have
> a wonderful weekend and a very happy new year.
>   Take care and God bless,
>   Jack Kramer
>

okay time for the truth about me 1) While I prefer wear protection, my family and job do not allow it. 2) Most of the time I handle my incontinence with dehydration and using the rest room and ungodly amount of time. 3) When I use dehydration I sometimes have no accidents. 4) I hate catheters (foley, texas, or indwelling), they cause even more UTIs in me 5) I have NEVER had a diaper rash (this includes when I was a baby) 6) My parents have a rule, no one over the age of 2 can be in "diapers" in the house 7) Work says "diapers" are unsanitary and would prefer I used a Texas style catheter 8) I hate when adults call what they wear "diapers," I hate at the hospital when the employees call them that, we are adults and diserve some dignity in life. 9) I mostly use either assurance overnights or kendall wings (size medium) 10) While not an AB, I do have childish tendencies. I am not an AB because, very basically put, I HATE SEXUAL STUFF (I am 24, a virgin and will be one till some time as I want a hild in my life) 11) You got a problem with who I am FUCK OFF. I am here to support people not be abused like I am in real life. 12) I am a tech in a hospital, an EMT, and a nursing student (Hope to be a nurse practioner). I also hold degrees in computer programming, speech language pathology, and religion. 13) I am actually incontinent and I HATE IT, it is getting worse. For those that wish they were incontinent to be babies again, It sucks so much there are times it has made me want to kill myself 14) When I can I like to change every 4-6 hours. On a bad day I can only pull 2 (so if you know a inexpensive but good thing that woudl help I would liek to here)

Hello
I think their has been a lot Ab/dl bashing going on or speculating
who is or isn't.
this is supposed to be a support site. key word support.
people who spend alot of time and energy try to accuse people of
being ab's or dl's  have to much time on their hands.
wether or not people have a real need to wear diapers or other
protection is their business and not anybody elses.
as long as their not posting anything perverted or other wise
inappropriate I don't see a problem.
to each his or her own.


















--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, <babyvamp@...> wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
>   I don't think it's fair that you assume that because someone has
the word baby in their id that they are in either of those groups. I
very dear friend that I am no longer able to visit gave this ID to me
while she was helping nurse me back to health. I have visited 2 of
their parties over the past 6 years to try and figure out they are so
comfortable with wearing diapers while I struggle with it still. I
have no inclination to try any of that stuff again but will deny the
friendships I have made with some of them.  I still see a few of them
from time to time and some make me uncomfortable with the way they
act, but that is their problem to deal with. I hold nothing against
anyone no matter what their name is so you assuming someone is one or
another type sounds very much like segregation to me. Before you
leap, you should always check for rocks, because this soldier for one
does not appreciate your stigma driven attitudes. I hope all of you
have a wonderful weekend and a very happy new year.
> Take care and God bless,
> Jack Kramer
>
>
> " Accept me for who I am, it is me true and honest!"
>
> babyvamp@...
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Rachelle
>   To: Incont@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:39 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Incont] Re: AB/DL
>
>
>   I'm glad you reinforced what I had been thinking.  I spent a big
amount of time emailing a member who was interested in being an adult
baby.   It's not my thing but ok for others to want that but not on
my time.  I was looking for a life partner, not a big child.  The ID
had one of the words you pointed out in it.  I won't do that again.
Was a tad unusal to say the least but maybe someone else's cup of
tea.
>    <stom28@...> wrote:
>
>     --- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick" wrote:
>     >
>     You got my vote NO AB/DL stuff there's plenty of sites that
cater to
>     that crowd why should we have to. I dropped out of the depend
board
>     because of all the AB/DL people masquerading as one of us. They
can
>     be so easy to pick out. Just by there name having something
like baby
>     or diaper or little etc. You run a good chance that they would
turn
>     out to be from that crowd. I'm really happy with the ISC board
>     schoppy does a great job with that board. but there is a lack
of
>     participation on there so that's why I came on here......Sandy
>
>     > yeah I'm thinking the same as you .
>     > they have plenty of other group to talk about diaper .
>     >
>     > Patrick .
>     >
>     > --- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "formerboomer" wrote:
>     > >
>     > > My vote is no ab/dl stuff on this site. They have plenty of
sites
>     > that
>     > > are devoted to that, I don't have anything against them but
would
>     > > prefer not to delve into that here..
>

ok i am incont have been since i was 11 years old due to a car accident and injuries to my brain and sinalcord an nervous system but i am an ab but i do not put ab posts up on this board an i don't think other ab's should either but i see ab/dl posts up on this board quite often an how many of theses ab/dl are not incont i would say 99%so if you are an ab/dl and are not incot then leave this board if you are an ab/dl and are truly incont welcome just don't post any ab/dl stuff

Tim

Rachelle <ofmanynationz@yahoo.com> wrote:

I'm glad you reinforced what I had been thinking.  I spent a big amount of time emailing a member who was interested in being an adult baby.   It's not my thing but ok for others to want that but not on my time.  I was looking for a life partner, not a big child.  The ID had one of the words you pointed out in it.  I won't do that again.  Was a tad unusal to say the least but maybe someone else's cup of tea. 
 <stom28@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick" wrote:
>
You got my vote NO AB/DL stuff there's plenty of sites that cater to
that crowd why should we have to. I dropped out of the depend board
because of all the AB/DL people masquerading as one of us. They can
be so easy to pick out. Just by there name having something like baby
or diaper or little etc. You run a good chance that they would turn
out to be from that crowd. I'm really happy with the ISC board
schoppy does a great job with that board. but there is a lack of
participation on there so that's why I came on here......Sandy

> yeah I'm thinking the same as you .
> they have plenty of other group to talk about diaper .
>
> Patrick .
>
> --- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "formerboomer" wrote:
> >
> > My vote is no ab/dl stuff on this site. They have plenty of sites
> that
> > are devoted to that, I don't have anything against them but would
> > prefer not to delve into that here.

LPH.Best of health & spirits.R    

---

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

---

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-----Original Message-----
From: Incont@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Incont@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of babyvamp@...
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 4:34 PM
To: Incont@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Incont] Re: Assuming people are AB/DL is very innappropriate

Hello All,

 

  I don't think it's fair that you assume that because someone has the word baby in their id that they are in either of those groups. I very dear friend that I am no longer able to visit gave this ID to me while she was helping nurse me back to health. I have visited 2 of their parties over the past 6 years to try and figure out they are so comfortable with wearing diapers while I struggle with it still. I have no inclination to try any of that stuff again but will deny the friendships I have made with some of them.  I still see a few of them from time to time and some make me uncomfortable with the way they act, but that is their problem to deal with. I hold nothing against anyone no matter what their name is so you assuming someone is one or another type sounds very much like segregation to me. Before you leap, you should always check for rocks, because this soldier for one does not appreciate your stigma driven attitudes. I hope all of you have a wonderful weekend and a very happy new year.

Take care and God bless,

Jack Kramer

You might want to consider putting something like this into a file that autogenerates when memberz join and once or twice monthly.  You might even want to  past the whole post into the file to save time and writing.  This will enable  memberz to know what is considered appropriate netiquette in our group.
Tony Di Antonio <tinytony59@msn.com> wrote:

Hi Everyone!

I've been reading posts from this group over the past few days, and must say that I'm very disapointed.

Once again, as I stated in a post I sent to this group, we're a support group, not a group who criticizes, chastizes and posts negative comments, thus, discouraging members to post in the group.

 

LPH.Best of health & spirits.R    

---

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "joyvanderp" <joyvanderp@...> wrote:
>
> I gave birth to my first child in Novebmer.  Ever since then, I have
> been completely incontinent.  I have no control of my bladder and
have
> been wearing diapers.  I joke that my baby and I have the same
> underwear.  Only, it's not really funny.  I'm miserable and am
afraid
> there is no cure.  I don't even feel myself peeing when I do pee, I
> just feel a gush sometimes and that's how I know I am peeing.  So
> wearing a diaper is a big must.  I have an appt. with a
urogynecologist
> in a couple weeks and I am willing to do surgery to fix this if
> necessary.  I'm just afraid even that won't help.  I don't want to
live
> the rest of my life like this.
>
My girlfriend has been incontinent for the past year after giving
birth. She wears diapers 24/7 and she manages just fine. I bought her
the Secure X-Plus diapers from the Secure Personal care products.
These Diapers hold up for about 10 hours or so. She is 30 yrs old and
has gotten use to fact that she has to wear diapers. Plus these
diapers are pretty thick, but there not crickley when she walks. I do
help her out alot and give her support all the way.

I'm glad you reinforced what I had been thinking.  I spent a big amount of time emailing a member who was interested in being an adult baby.   It's not my thing but ok for others to want that but not on my time.  I was looking for a life partner, not a big child.  The ID had one of the words you pointed out in it.  I won't do that again.  Was a tad unusal to say the least but maybe someone else's cup of tea. 
 <stom28@...> wrote:

--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick" wrote:
>
You got my vote NO AB/DL stuff there's plenty of sites that cater to
that crowd why should we have to. I dropped out of the depend board
because of all the AB/DL people masquerading as one of us. They can
be so easy to pick out. Just by there name having something like baby
or diaper or little etc. You run a good chance that they would turn
out to be from that crowd. I'm really happy with the ISC board
schoppy does a great job with that board. but there is a lack of
participation on there so that's why I came on here......Sandy

> yeah I'm thinking the same as you .
> they have plenty of other group to talk about diaper .
>
> Patrick .
>
> --- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "formerboomer" wrote:
> >
> > My vote is no ab/dl stuff on this site. They have plenty of sites
> that
> > are devoted to that, I don't have anything against them but would
> > prefer not to delve into that here.

LPH.Best of health & spirits.R    

---

Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rachelle

To: Incont@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 9:39 AM

Subject: Re: [Incont] Re: AB/DL

I'm glad you reinforced what I had been thinking.  I spent a big amount of time emailing a member who was interested in being an adult baby.   It's not my thing but ok for others to want that but not on my time.  I was looking for a life partner, not a big child.  The ID had one of the words you pointed out in it.  I won't do that again.  Was a tad unusal to say the least but maybe someone else's cup of tea. 
 <stom28@yahoo.com> wrote:

--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick" wrote:
>
You got my vote NO AB/DL stuff there's plenty of sites that cater to
that crowd why should we have to. I dropped out of the depend board
because of all the AB/DL people masquerading as one of us. They can
be so easy to pick out. Just by there name having something like baby
or diaper or little etc. You run a good chance that they would turn
out to be from that crowd. I'm really happy with the ISC board
schoppy does a great job with that board. but there is a lack of
participation on there so that's why I came on here......Sandy

> yeah I'm thinking the same as you .
> they have plenty of other group to talk about diaper .
>
> Patrick .
>
> --- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "formerboomer" wrote:
> >
> > My vote is no ab/dl stuff on this site. They have plenty of sites
> that
> > are devoted to that, I don't have anything against them but would
> > prefer not to delve into that here.

.

Hi Everyone!

I've been reading posts from this group over the past few days, and must say that I'm very disapointed.

Once again, as I stated in a post I sent to this group, we're a support group, not a group who criticizes, chastizes and posts negative comments, thus, discouraging members to post in the group.

 

LPH.Best of health & spirits.R    

--- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick" wrote:
>
You got my vote NO AB/DL stuff there's plenty of sites that cater to
that crowd why should we have to. I dropped out of the depend board
because of all the AB/DL people masquerading as one of us. They can
be so easy to pick out. Just by there name having something like baby
or diaper or little etc. You run a good chance that they would turn
out to be from that crowd. I'm really happy with the ISC board
schoppy does a great job with that board. but there is a lack of
participation on there so that's why I came on here......Sandy

> yeah I'm thinking the same as you .
> they have plenty of other group to talk about diaper .
>
> Patrick .
>
> --- In Incont@yahoogroups.com, "formerboomer" wrote:
> >
> > My vote is no ab/dl stuff on this site. They have plenty of sites
> that
> > are devoted to that, I don't have anything against them but would
> > prefer not to delve into that here.

LPH.Best of health & spirits.R    

I gave birth to my first child in Novebmer. Ever since then, I have
been completely incontinent. I have no control of my bladder and have
been wearing diapers. I joke that my baby and I have the same
underwear. Only, it's not really funny. I'm miserable and am afraid
there is no cure. I don't even feel myself peeing when I do pee, I
just feel a gush sometimes and that's how I know I am peeing. So
wearing a diaper is a big must. I have an appt. with a urogynecologist
in a couple weeks and I am willing to do surgery to fix this if
necessary. I'm just afraid even that won't help. I don't want to live
the rest of my life like this.

I gave birth to my first child in Novebmer.  Ever since then, I have
been completely incontinent.  I have no control of my bladder and have
been wearing diapers.  I joke that my baby and I have the same
underwear.  Only, it's not really funny.  I'm miserable and am afraid
there is no cure.  I don't even feel myself peeing when I do pee, I
just feel a gush sometimes and that's how I know I am peeing.  So
wearing a diaper is a big must.  I have an appt. with a urogynecologist
in a couple weeks and I am willing to do surgery to fix this if
necessary.  I'm just afraid even that won't help.  I don't want to live
the rest of my life like this.

i agree with you

james <jwwebpage@yahoo.com> wrote:

i hope everyone had a nice chirstmas.i've been in diapers since my last
year in high school and been wearing diapers24/7.i been too so many
doctors and they tell me it's overactivebladder or they can't find
anything wrong with me.so i made up my mine to keep wearing diapers
for as long as it takes or i find someone that understand me.i can't
tell if i have to go to the bathroom sometimes,but other times i can't
feel the urge to go at all.that's when i have accidents,that's why i
wear diapers 24/7.i gotten so used to wearing diapers i don't mine
wearing them anymore.it's just like wearing underwear i think.i don't
care if someone can tell if i'm wear diapers,it doesn't bother me at
all.popel just don't understand why some popel have to wear diapers
because it's part of life.

---

Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

i am going on 5 yrs being incotinent from a mva i have to to many
doctors and so many test and all say it is neurogenic i prefer to wear
briefs i have tried caths on doctor orders and got so many uti's i
can't count but with my job i have bearly enough time to change and i
can live my life almost normal but the stupid doctors tell me it is
wrong what i am doing you know F him until the can either improve odds
of surgery or come up with other solution i am going to continue to use
them ya it sux but there are worse thing that i could deal with i am 26
i have 2 jobs i love own my house and almost done college ya like i
said it sux to wear them but i can still function almost as every other
people my age it is stressfull one thing recently that made me mad i
had state medicaid and for the last 5 yrs they have paid for my supplys
and they said i make to much and kicked me off there insurance so on
top of my other bills i have to pay for my supplys to some it up live
your life and be happy these over paid doctors have no clue what it is
like to live with this i wish for on week my dr could have this problem
and see how it is to deal with it well i am rambelling and go to get
back to work stay safe

i hope everyone had a nice chirstmas.i've been in diapers since my last
year in high school and been wearing diapers24/7.i been too so many
doctors and they tell me it's overactivebladder or they can't find
anything wrong with me.so i made up my mine to keep wearing diapers
for as long as it takes or i find someone that understand me.i can't
tell if i have to go to the bathroom sometimes,but other times i can't
feel the urge to go at all.that's when i have accidents,that's why i
wear diapers 24/7.i gotten so used to wearing diapers i don't mine
wearing them anymore.it's just like wearing underwear i think.i don't
care if someone can tell if i'm wear diapers,it doesn't bother me at
all.popel just don't understand why some popel have to wear diapers
because it's part of life.

20/20 Reasearch, A Miami-based medical and consumer research company,
is looking for women with incontinence willing participate in a focus
group to gather their opinions on the various products they have
encountered in the past.

Participants must be between 21 and 75 years-old and will be paid $150
for two hours of their time. We are not trying to sell anything.

This study will take place in our office in the Doral area of northwest
Miami and will be on January 29th at 5:00 pm.

If interested in joining or learning more about the study, please
contact Ana at 786-594-3740 ext. 117.

Thank you for your time.

http://www.2020research.com

i hope everyone had a nice chirstmas.i've been in diapers since my last
year in high school and been wearing diapers24/7.i been too so many
doctors and they tell me it's overactivebladder or they can't find
anything wrong with me.so i made up  my mine to keep wearing diapers
for as long as it takes or i find someone that understand me.i can't
tell if i have to go to the bathroom sometimes,but other times i can't
feel the urge to go at all.that's when i have accidents,that's why i
wear diapers 24/7.i gotten so used to wearing diapers i don't mine
wearing them anymore.it's just like wearing underwear i think.i don't
care if someone can tell if i'm wear diapers,it doesn't bother me at
all.popel just don't understand why some popel have to wear diapers
because it's part of life.

Hi all,

I am a 60 year old male who has an enlarged prostate. At night I
wear diapers (cloth) because of leakage. My question, my urine is very
strong in odor, is there any way that I can stop this? Even when I
take a shower I can still smell it. Any help would be welcome. And
yes, I have used several types of wipes to no avail.

--- sugarbear_48630 <sugarbear_48630@...> wrote:

Hi, Sugarbear!  Merry Christmas!

>      I am a 60 year old male who has an enlarged prostate.
> At night I
> wear diapers (cloth) because of leakage.  My question, my
> urine is very
> strong in odor, is there any way  that I can stop this?
> Even when I
> take a shower I can still smell it.  Any help would be
> welcome.  And
> yes, I have used several types of wipes to no avail.

A major cause of strong-smelling urine is concentration, due
to insufficient liquid intake.  I'd urge you to drink more,
even though it may cause more incontinence, to reduce the
concentration of salts and other wastes in your urine.  It's
counterintuitive for those of us who are incontinent, but is
actually important to maintain better health.

Hope this helps some.  As to meds, ask your pharmacist if
they have any suggestions.  Often they're more in the know
than the docs!

Brew


      
________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Never miss a thing.  Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

I WOULD LIKE TO TALK TO SOMEONE ABOUT WEARING DIAPER AND THE EFFECTS IT HAS ON PEOPLE

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To: Incont@yahoogroups.com
From: sugarbear_48630@...
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2007 19:30:33 +0000
Subject: [Incont] Diapers

Hi all,

I am a 60 year old male who has an enlarged prostate. At night I
wear diapers (cloth) because of leakage. My question, my urine is very
strong in odor, is there any way that I can stop this? Even when I
take a shower I can still smell it. Any help would be welcome. And
yes, I have used several types of wipes to no avail.