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#126 From: "Mark Miller" <mam@...>
Date: Mon Apr 3, 2006 5:11 pm
Subject: Carbs & Protein Post Workout 		tlaspec04
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I recently learned from a bodybuilder that this bodybuilder would
take a 2 to 1 ratio of carbs and protein within 1 hour after a
workout.  The bodybuilder takes some sort of carb drink mix and
combines it with ~25grams of protein from another protein drink
mix.  I'm not sure on the carb amount but I'm assuming its in the 50-
100grams range.  I know it was not a sugar carb but something else
that converts to glucogen more easily.

I was told this is better than doing just protein after a workout
because the carbs are converted inmmediatley to glucogen and then
the muscle will uptake the glucogen adn the protein together, along
with anything else like creatine or glutomine.  This would enhance
the muscle recovery and swell and not be stored as fat.

THis bodybuilder also said that just having a protein shake would
actually be detrimental to muscle recovery because it needs the
carbs to help in the uptake of the protein and other supplements.

My question is, based on the information I've given, do you think
this would have an impact on my NHE plan if I were to do this?  I'm
am following the BB plan.

Second question is, what validity is there to the carb/protein
combination as a post workout meal?  Should we be consuming some
carbs with the proteins?

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#125 From: "Simon Dankel" <simon.dankel@...>
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:11 am
Subject: Re: sugarfree lollies 		simon_dankel
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
By the way, if you do chew gum sometimes, it could help to spit out the juice three times...

On 3/31/06, Simon Dankel <simon.dankel@...> wrote:
I've experienced probably the same feeling with protein powders. It's possible that for me, it's sorbitol.
 
Simon

 
On 3/31/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
These sugarfree lollies contain a combination of the following sweeteners:
 
• Acesulfame K
• Aspartame
• Maltilol
• Sorbitol
• Xylitol
 
The ones used in the gum are not necessarily the same as for the lollies. My guess is that you have a problem with one of these. Or it might be one of the preservatives. Its always difficult to tell!
 
By the way, excessive sorbitol consumption can cause diarrhea. I learned that from House =)
 
Joel
 


 
On 3/31/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
thx for info on selenium, now i want to know does anyone know if there is a problem with any sugarfree lollies?
I dont know what country everyone is in on here but i chew a sugarfree gum called EXTRA . That same brand has bought out a sugarfree lollie, only thing is after taking one i feel a little drowsy as though ive eaten a big meal or something. This doesnt happen with the gum though.
Is anyone aware of an ingredient in these things that may cause this?
luke

Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@...> wrote:
 
Selenium supplements
Selenium occurs in staple foods such as corn, wheat, and soybean as selenomethionine, the organic selenium analogue of the amino acid methionine [ 30,31]. Selenomethionine can be incorporated into body proteins in place of methionine, and serves as a vehicle for selenium storage in organs and tissues. Selenium supplements may also contain sodium selenite and sodium selenate, two inorganic forms of selenium. Selenomethionine is generally considered to be the best absorbed and utilized form of selenium.
 
Any supplement contained within an amino acid generally has a very high uptake by the digestive system. This is because the body has a high affinity for absorbing amino acids. Conversely, free form minerals such as potassium or magnesium are generally absorbed at a lower rate because of competition with other minerals in food.
 
Since selenium in food (such as from grains and meat) is contained within an amino acid, it must be concluded that it will be absorbed equally well as from an organic selenium supplement. If the supplement is inorganic, absorption would actually be lower.
 
Rob's case against potassium supplements is that normally this mineral competes with calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron & other minerals for absorption by the body. But when taken alone on an empty stomach, absorption is actually maximized and occurs rapidly. Also, selenium is not problematic in large megadoses, it's only a problem after long term overdosing.
 
I hope that helps!

Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 

 
On 3/27/06, Simon Dankel <simon.dankel@... > wrote:
Would there be a difference in the potential toxicity of selenium in pills compared to in food matrix? I imagine that selenium in foods is potentially less toxic, for example due to lower rate of absorption. Rob has made the same argument in the case of potassium.
 
Simon 

 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Oops, my browser did something funny there......
 
........As well, eating 1 halibut fillet, 12 oysters, 2 hamburgers, 12 shrimp, or 2 cups of chili would all be toxic since they exceed 100 mcg. A more accurate statement on the bottle would have been "total daily intake of selenium exceeding 400 mcg may be toxic". But obviously this is difficult for most people to calculate so they take the easier route.
 
I posted some comments on selenium a few months a go which I have reproduced below:
 
***********
 
Hi all,

If anyone has read Rob's Flu Report and is looking for an easy way to
get more selenium in their diet, consider brazil nuts. 1 oz. (6-8
nuts) contains a whopping 543.5 micrograms. I haven't done the math,
but my gut feel is this'll be cheaper than pills. Most multivitamins
I've looked at contain no more than 100 micrograms (I was taking one
for a while there that had none......)

Interestingly, the Eades recommend not supplementing with any more
than 100 mcg, since meat conatins a fair bit, and consuming too much
selenium puts you at risk of selenosis. Selenium toxicity is rather
nasty involving hair loss and mild nerve damage.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone overdosing on brazil nuts, and
the only reported cases of selenosis have been in industrial
accidents. Therefore, health authorities may simply be imposing
a "safe" limit since they couldn't possibly see the benefit of taking
large doses (as with all other vitamins & minerals).

In any event, I'm happy to take Rob's advice, although I'm really
dying for him to release a supplement review so that this issue and
many others can be laid to rest!

Regards,

Joel
 
 
***********
 
Upon further reading on PubMed, selenium toxicity is very real and can occur at levels over 800 mcg per day. The safe limit would be 600 micrograms, although this is rounded down to 400 mcg to account for individual variation (toxicity levels are directly correlated with body weight).
 
There's a good article I have uploaded to the file section called Selenium - Nutritional, Toxicologic, and Clinical Aspects.pdf if anyone wants to have a quick read.
 
Considering the minimum selenium requirement is around 50 and the maximum is around 800, there's certainly not much room for error!
 
BUT, there's a caveat: the selenium toxicity threshold is raised by vitamins C and E. SO, if someone were supplementing with 9 grams of vitamin C and 1200 I.U. of vitamin E, they could easily handle the 1200 mcg of selenium that Rob recommends taking during infection in his flu report.
 
Conclusion? If your total selenium intake (from diet & supplements) exceeds 600 mcg then make sure you're taking plenty of C and E. I would also say go easy on the brazil nuts, especially since crop variation can produce higher selenium levels on occassion!
 
I'd be interested in the biochemical mechanisms behind vitamins C & E's protective effects if anyone has some insight.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
**********
 
 
So hopefully that helps you with your predicament!
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke


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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#124 From: "Simon Dankel" <simon.dankel@...>
Date: Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:09 am
Subject: Re: sugarfree lollies 		simon_dankel
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I've experienced probably the same feeling with protein powders. It's possible that for me, it's sorbitol.
 
Simon

 
On 3/31/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@...> wrote:
These sugarfree lollies contain a combination of the following sweeteners:
 
• Acesulfame K
• Aspartame
• Maltilol
• Sorbitol
• Xylitol
 
The ones used in the gum are not necessarily the same as for the lollies. My guess is that you have a problem with one of these. Or it might be one of the preservatives. Its always difficult to tell!
 
By the way, excessive sorbitol consumption can cause diarrhea. I learned that from House =)
 
Joel
 


 
On 3/31/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
thx for info on selenium, now i want to know does anyone know if there is a problem with any sugarfree lollies?
I dont know what country everyone is in on here but i chew a sugarfree gum called EXTRA . That same brand has bought out a sugarfree lollie, only thing is after taking one i feel a little drowsy as though ive eaten a big meal or something. This doesnt happen with the gum though.
Is anyone aware of an ingredient in these things that may cause this?
luke

Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@...> wrote:
 
Selenium supplements
Selenium occurs in staple foods such as corn, wheat, and soybean as selenomethionine, the organic selenium analogue of the amino acid methionine [ 30,31]. Selenomethionine can be incorporated into body proteins in place of methionine, and serves as a vehicle for selenium storage in organs and tissues. Selenium supplements may also contain sodium selenite and sodium selenate, two inorganic forms of selenium. Selenomethionine is generally considered to be the best absorbed and utilized form of selenium.
 
Any supplement contained within an amino acid generally has a very high uptake by the digestive system. This is because the body has a high affinity for absorbing amino acids. Conversely, free form minerals such as potassium or magnesium are generally absorbed at a lower rate because of competition with other minerals in food.
 
Since selenium in food (such as from grains and meat) is contained within an amino acid, it must be concluded that it will be absorbed equally well as from an organic selenium supplement. If the supplement is inorganic, absorption would actually be lower.
 
Rob's case against potassium supplements is that normally this mineral competes with calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron & other minerals for absorption by the body. But when taken alone on an empty stomach, absorption is actually maximized and occurs rapidly. Also, selenium is not problematic in large megadoses, it's only a problem after long term overdosing.
 
I hope that helps!

Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 

 
On 3/27/06, Simon Dankel <simon.dankel@... > wrote:
Would there be a difference in the potential toxicity of selenium in pills compared to in food matrix? I imagine that selenium in foods is potentially less toxic, for example due to lower rate of absorption. Rob has made the same argument in the case of potassium.
 
Simon 

 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Oops, my browser did something funny there......
 
........As well, eating 1 halibut fillet, 12 oysters, 2 hamburgers, 12 shrimp, or 2 cups of chili would all be toxic since they exceed 100 mcg. A more accurate statement on the bottle would have been "total daily intake of selenium exceeding 400 mcg may be toxic". But obviously this is difficult for most people to calculate so they take the easier route.
 
I posted some comments on selenium a few months a go which I have reproduced below:
 
***********
 
Hi all,

If anyone has read Rob's Flu Report and is looking for an easy way to
get more selenium in their diet, consider brazil nuts. 1 oz. (6-8
nuts) contains a whopping 543.5 micrograms. I haven't done the math,
but my gut feel is this'll be cheaper than pills. Most multivitamins
I've looked at contain no more than 100 micrograms (I was taking one
for a while there that had none......)

Interestingly, the Eades recommend not supplementing with any more
than 100 mcg, since meat conatins a fair bit, and consuming too much
selenium puts you at risk of selenosis. Selenium toxicity is rather
nasty involving hair loss and mild nerve damage.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone overdosing on brazil nuts, and
the only reported cases of selenosis have been in industrial
accidents. Therefore, health authorities may simply be imposing
a "safe" limit since they couldn't possibly see the benefit of taking
large doses (as with all other vitamins & minerals).

In any event, I'm happy to take Rob's advice, although I'm really
dying for him to release a supplement review so that this issue and
many others can be laid to rest!

Regards,

Joel
 
 
***********
 
Upon further reading on PubMed, selenium toxicity is very real and can occur at levels over 800 mcg per day. The safe limit would be 600 micrograms, although this is rounded down to 400 mcg to account for individual variation (toxicity levels are directly correlated with body weight).
 
There's a good article I have uploaded to the file section called Selenium - Nutritional, Toxicologic, and Clinical Aspects.pdf if anyone wants to have a quick read.
 
Considering the minimum selenium requirement is around 50 and the maximum is around 800, there's certainly not much room for error!
 
BUT, there's a caveat: the selenium toxicity threshold is raised by vitamins C and E. SO, if someone were supplementing with 9 grams of vitamin C and 1200 I.U. of vitamin E, they could easily handle the 1200 mcg of selenium that Rob recommends taking during infection in his flu report.
 
Conclusion? If your total selenium intake (from diet & supplements) exceeds 600 mcg then make sure you're taking plenty of C and E. I would also say go easy on the brazil nuts, especially since crop variation can produce higher selenium levels on occassion!
 
I'd be interested in the biochemical mechanisms behind vitamins C & E's protective effects if anyone has some insight.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
**********
 
 
So hopefully that helps you with your predicament!
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke


SPONSORED LINKS
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Health fitness nutrition Health hi nutrition ocular Health nutrition

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS





YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




On Yahoo!7
Desperate Housewives: Sneak peeks, recaps and more.


YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS





SPONSORED LINKS
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Health fitness nutrition Health hi nutrition ocular Health nutrition

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#123 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:54 am
Subject: Re: Re: A caution about mis-applying NHE 		jrosart295
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
In apples at least, half the carbohydrates come from fructose. So my 200 gram estimate would have been too high.
 
 
On 3/30/06, Keith Thomas <keith@...> wrote:
"Joel Rosart" <wrote:

>
> Keith,
>
> How much fruit would you do at a carb load?
> Fructose in fruit is normally not a problem
> since it occurs in relatively low quantities
> (especially by comparison to soft drinks).
> But if you were doing 10 apples or more (over
> 200 grams of fructose), which it sounds like
> you might have, I'm not sure of the effects.
> I don't know what level of fructose causes
> insulin resistance in humans, but its the
> preferred method of creating hyperinsulinemia
> in rats.
>
> 4-5 servings of fruit in a day still sounds kind
> of high. I did the Zone for a while until I
> developed allergies; not sure if the excessive
> fruit eating had anything to do with it, but I
> think for most people 2 pieces of fruit is plenty.

I don't do a 'carb-load' as such any more. I eat
seasonally, so plenty of fruit in autumn. This
could mean a total of ten pieces of fruit (say
plums, apples, peaches, nectarines, pears) in a day,
but no fruit for days on end in winter and spring.

I recall reading somewhere that fruit, although they
contain fructose, are not a particularly significant
source of fructose. I would never consume fructose
syrup or products made with it.

Thanks forthe info on creating hyperinsulinemia in
rats. Seems as if I made myself into a lab rat for a
couple of years!
 

Keith






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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#122 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:34 pm
Subject: Re: sugarfree lollies 		jrosart295
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
These sugarfree lollies contain a combination of the following sweeteners:
 
• Acesulfame K
• Aspartame
• Maltilol
• Sorbitol
• Xylitol
 
The ones used in the gum are not necessarily the same as for the lollies. My guess is that you have a problem with one of these. Or it might be one of the preservatives. Its always difficult to tell!
 
By the way, excessive sorbitol consumption can cause diarrhea. I learned that from House =)
 
Joel
 


 
On 3/31/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@...> wrote:
thx for info on selenium, now i want to know does anyone know if there is a problem with any sugarfree lollies?
I dont know what country everyone is in on here but i chew a sugarfree gum called EXTRA . That same brand has bought out a sugarfree lollie, only thing is after taking one i feel a little drowsy as though ive eaten a big meal or something. This doesnt happen with the gum though.
Is anyone aware of an ingredient in these things that may cause this?
luke

Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@...> wrote:
 
Selenium supplements
Selenium occurs in staple foods such as corn, wheat, and soybean as selenomethionine, the organic selenium analogue of the amino acid methionine [ 30,31]. Selenomethionine can be incorporated into body proteins in place of methionine, and serves as a vehicle for selenium storage in organs and tissues. Selenium supplements may also contain sodium selenite and sodium selenate, two inorganic forms of selenium. Selenomethionine is generally considered to be the best absorbed and utilized form of selenium.
 
Any supplement contained within an amino acid generally has a very high uptake by the digestive system. This is because the body has a high affinity for absorbing amino acids. Conversely, free form minerals such as potassium or magnesium are generally absorbed at a lower rate because of competition with other minerals in food.
 
Since selenium in food (such as from grains and meat) is contained within an amino acid, it must be concluded that it will be absorbed equally well as from an organic selenium supplement. If the supplement is inorganic, absorption would actually be lower.
 
Rob's case against potassium supplements is that normally this mineral competes with calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron & other minerals for absorption by the body. But when taken alone on an empty stomach, absorption is actually maximized and occurs rapidly. Also, selenium is not problematic in large megadoses, it's only a problem after long term overdosing.
 
I hope that helps!

Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 

 
On 3/27/06, Simon Dankel <simon.dankel@... > wrote:
Would there be a difference in the potential toxicity of selenium in pills compared to in food matrix? I imagine that selenium in foods is potentially less toxic, for example due to lower rate of absorption. Rob has made the same argument in the case of potassium.
 
Simon 

 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Oops, my browser did something funny there......
 
........As well, eating 1 halibut fillet, 12 oysters, 2 hamburgers, 12 shrimp, or 2 cups of chili would all be toxic since they exceed 100 mcg. A more accurate statement on the bottle would have been "total daily intake of selenium exceeding 400 mcg may be toxic". But obviously this is difficult for most people to calculate so they take the easier route.
 
I posted some comments on selenium a few months a go which I have reproduced below:
 
***********
 
Hi all,

If anyone has read Rob's Flu Report and is looking for an easy way to
get more selenium in their diet, consider brazil nuts. 1 oz. (6-8
nuts) contains a whopping 543.5 micrograms. I haven't done the math,
but my gut feel is this'll be cheaper than pills. Most multivitamins
I've looked at contain no more than 100 micrograms (I was taking one
for a while there that had none......)

Interestingly, the Eades recommend not supplementing with any more
than 100 mcg, since meat conatins a fair bit, and consuming too much
selenium puts you at risk of selenosis. Selenium toxicity is rather
nasty involving hair loss and mild nerve damage.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone overdosing on brazil nuts, and
the only reported cases of selenosis have been in industrial
accidents. Therefore, health authorities may simply be imposing
a "safe" limit since they couldn't possibly see the benefit of taking
large doses (as with all other vitamins & minerals).

In any event, I'm happy to take Rob's advice, although I'm really
dying for him to release a supplement review so that this issue and
many others can be laid to rest!

Regards,

Joel
 
 
***********
 
Upon further reading on PubMed, selenium toxicity is very real and can occur at levels over 800 mcg per day. The safe limit would be 600 micrograms, although this is rounded down to 400 mcg to account for individual variation (toxicity levels are directly correlated with body weight).
 
There's a good article I have uploaded to the file section called Selenium - Nutritional, Toxicologic, and Clinical Aspects.pdf if anyone wants to have a quick read.
 
Considering the minimum selenium requirement is around 50 and the maximum is around 800, there's certainly not much room for error!
 
BUT, there's a caveat: the selenium toxicity threshold is raised by vitamins C and E. SO, if someone were supplementing with 9 grams of vitamin C and 1200 I.U. of vitamin E, they could easily handle the 1200 mcg of selenium that Rob recommends taking during infection in his flu report.
 
Conclusion? If your total selenium intake (from diet & supplements) exceeds 600 mcg then make sure you're taking plenty of C and E. I would also say go easy on the brazil nuts, especially since crop variation can produce higher selenium levels on occassion!
 
I'd be interested in the biochemical mechanisms behind vitamins C & E's protective effects if anyone has some insight.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
**********
 
 
So hopefully that helps you with your predicament!
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke


SPONSORED LINKS
Diet nutrition health Fitness nutrition Food nutrition health
Health fitness nutrition Health hi nutrition ocular Health nutrition

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS





YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




On Yahoo!7
Desperate Housewives: Sneak peeks, recaps and more.


YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#121 From: Luke Buckley <bpx_91@...>
Date: Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:51 pm
Subject: sugarfree lollies 		bpx_91
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
thx for info on selenium, now i want to know does anyone know if there is a problem with any sugarfree lollies?
I dont know what country everyone is in on here but i chew a sugarfree gum called EXTRA . That same brand has bought out a sugarfree lollie, only thing is after taking one i feel a little drowsy as though ive eaten a big meal or something. This doesnt happen with the gum though.
Is anyone aware of an ingredient in these things that may cause this?
luke

Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@...> wrote:
 
Selenium supplements
Selenium occurs in staple foods such as corn, wheat, and soybean as selenomethionine, the organic selenium analogue of the amino acid methionine [ 30,31]. Selenomethionine can be incorporated into body proteins in place of methionine, and serves as a vehicle for selenium storage in organs and tissues. Selenium supplements may also contain sodium selenite and sodium selenate, two inorganic forms of selenium. Selenomethionine is generally considered to be the best absorbed and utilized form of selenium.
 
Any supplement contained within an amino acid generally has a very high uptake by the digestive system. This is because the body has a high affinity for absorbing amino acids. Conversely, free form minerals such as potassium or magnesium are generally absorbed at a lower rate because of competition with other minerals in food.
 
Since selenium in food (such as from grains and meat) is contained within an amino acid, it must be concluded that it will be absorbed equally well as from an organic selenium supplement. If the supplement is inorganic, absorption would actually be lower.
 
Rob's case against potassium supplements is that normally this mineral competes with calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron & other minerals for absorption by the body. But when taken alone on an empty stomach, absorption is actually maximized and occurs rapidly. Also, selenium is not problematic in large megadoses, it's only a problem after long term overdosing.
 
I hope that helps!

Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 

 
On 3/27/06, Simon Dankel <simon.dankel@... > wrote:
Would there be a difference in the potential toxicity of selenium in pills compared to in food matrix? I imagine that selenium in foods is potentially less toxic, for example due to lower rate of absorption. Rob has made the same argument in the case of potassium.
 
Simon 

 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Oops, my browser did something funny there......
 
........As well, eating 1 halibut fillet, 12 oysters, 2 hamburgers, 12 shrimp, or 2 cups of chili would all be toxic since they exceed 100 mcg. A more accurate statement on the bottle would have been "total daily intake of selenium exceeding 400 mcg may be toxic". But obviously this is difficult for most people to calculate so they take the easier route.
 
I posted some comments on selenium a few months a go which I have reproduced below:
 
***********
 
Hi all,

If anyone has read Rob's Flu Report and is looking for an easy way to
get more selenium in their diet, consider brazil nuts. 1 oz. (6-8
nuts) contains a whopping 543.5 micrograms. I haven't done the math,
but my gut feel is this'll be cheaper than pills. Most multivitamins
I've looked at contain no more than 100 micrograms (I was taking one
for a while there that had none......)

Interestingly, the Eades recommend not supplementing with any more
than 100 mcg, since meat conatins a fair bit, and consuming too much
selenium puts you at risk of selenosis. Selenium toxicity is rather
nasty involving hair loss and mild nerve damage.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone overdosing on brazil nuts, and
the only reported cases of selenosis have been in industrial
accidents. Therefore, health authorities may simply be imposing
a "safe" limit since they couldn't possibly see the benefit of taking
large doses (as with all other vitamins & minerals).

In any event, I'm happy to take Rob's advice, although I'm really
dying for him to release a supplement review so that this issue and
many others can be laid to rest!

Regards,

Joel
 
 
***********
 
Upon further reading on PubMed, selenium toxicity is very real and can occur at levels over 800 mcg per day. The safe limit would be 600 micrograms, although this is rounded down to 400 mcg to account for individual variation (toxicity levels are directly correlated with body weight).
 
There's a good article I have uploaded to the file section called Selenium - Nutritional, Toxicologic, and Clinical Aspects.pdf if anyone wants to have a quick read.
 
Considering the minimum selenium requirement is around 50 and the maximum is around 800, there's certainly not much room for error!
 
BUT, there's a caveat: the selenium toxicity threshold is raised by vitamins C and E. SO, if someone were supplementing with 9 grams of vitamin C and 1200 I.U. of vitamin E, they could easily handle the 1200 mcg of selenium that Rob recommends taking during infection in his flu report.
 
Conclusion? If your total selenium intake (from diet & supplements) exceeds 600 mcg then make sure you're taking plenty of C and E. I would also say go easy on the brazil nuts, especially since crop variation can produce higher selenium levels on occassion!
 
I'd be interested in the biochemical mechanisms behind vitamins C & E's protective effects if anyone has some insight.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
**********
 
 
So hopefully that helps you with your predicament!
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#120 From: "Keith Thomas" <keith@...>
Date: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:40 am
Subject: Re: A caution about mis-applying NHE 		keiththomasau
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
"Joel Rosart" <wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> How much fruit would you do at a carb load?
> Fructose in fruit is normally not a problem
> since it occurs in relatively low quantities
> (especially by comparison to soft drinks).
> But if you were doing 10 apples or more (over
> 200 grams of fructose), which it sounds like
> you might have, I'm not sure of the effects.
> I don't know what level of fructose causes
> insulin resistance in humans, but its the
> preferred method of creating hyperinsulinemia
> in rats.
>
> 4-5 servings of fruit in a day still sounds kind
> of high. I did the Zone for a while until I
> developed allergies; not sure if the excessive
> fruit eating had anything to do with it, but I
> think for most people 2 pieces of fruit is plenty.

I don't do a 'carb-load' as such any more. I eat
seasonally, so plenty of fruit in autumn. This
could mean a total of ten pieces of fruit (say
plums, apples, peaches, nectarines, pears) in a day,
but no fruit for days on end in winter and spring.

I recall reading somewhere that fruit, although they
contain fructose, are not a particularly significant
source of fructose. I would never consume fructose
syrup or products made with it.

Thanks forthe info on creating hyperinsulinemia in
rats. Seems as if I made myself into a lab rat for a
couple of years!

Keith

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#119 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:43 am
Subject: Re: Re: A caution about mis-applying NHE 		jrosart295
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Keith,
 
How much fruit would you do at a carb load? Fructose in fruit is normally not a problem since it occurs in relatively low quantities (especially by comparison to soft drinks). But if you were doing 10 apples or more (over 200 grams of fructose), which it sounds like you might have, I'm not sure of the effects. I don't know what level of fructose causes insulin resistance in humans, but its the preferred method of creating hyperinsulinemia in rats.
 
4-5 servings of fruit in a day still sounds kind of high. I did the Zone for a while until I developed allergies; not sure if the excessive fruit eating had anything to do with it, but I think for most people 2 pieces of fruit is plenty.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 


 
On 3/29/06, Keith Thomas <keith@...> wrote:
"Joel Rosart" wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> Could I ask how you were damaged permanently? To my knowledge even diabetics
> injecting themselves with large doses of insulin rarely (if ever) do any
> recognizable damage to themselves.
>
> Sorry for being skeptical but I am genuinely interested if this is true! Do
> you still follow NHE now?
>
I don't follow NHE as such now, but I do follow a low carb diet which I intersperse every
few days with carbs from fruit, carrots and other fresh foods, but not enough to call my
meals 'carb-load meals'. I also eat nuts. No refined foods, no packaged foods at all. Plenty
of red meat and plenty of vigorous exercise.

About three years ago I began to get itchy skin, my skin became dry and scaly, I had
agonizing shooting pains in my left leg (as well as tingling and numbness), I was up
peeing 3-4 times a night, I was becoming more tired than usual. Cuts and sores took a
long while to heal and infection was common. Erectile dysfunction started. Blood tests
showed no abnormalities.

After dropping the excessive carb-load meals all my symptoms disappeared. Now I sleep
through the night. Have not had an infection for a couple of years (even though I
experience more cuts from gardening). I'm still exercising vigorously - I dead-lifted over
twice my bodyweight this morning, then cycled hard (90 inch gear all the way) 15km to
work and another 17km home again. A usual day. And I feel great, just great.

How have I been damaged permanently? The left leg cramps badly at night (sometimes for
up to two hours: calf, upper foot, hamstrings and quads) if I have more than 4-5 pieces of
fruit in the afternoon, or even a couple of carrots. I don't eat bread, sugar or potatoes, so
can't say how they would affect me. The cramping is not affected by how much water I
take in; I have tried all the combinations, believe me! Erectile dysfunction continues. I still
have some numbness in my left toes, but it's no bother.

Let me repeat what I said at the opening of my post; my problems do not reflect on NHE -
they reflect on my excessive enthusiasm. I'm passing on this info from my personal
experiment so that others can read what I say and apply it as they wish.

Keith






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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#118 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:29 am
Subject: Re: Re: selenium 		jrosart295
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Though selenium may be one of the only nutrients needed in a whole food diet to avoid immediate deficiency, I believe there are many others that can't be obtained from the diet in sufficient quantity to ensure wellness. Vitamin C would certainly be one of them.
 
 
Joel


 
On 3/29/06, Keith Thomas <keith@...> wrote:
"Joel Rosart" wrote

>
>
> Since selenium in food (such as from grains and meat) is contained within an
> amino acid, it must be concluded that it will be absorbed equally well as
> from an organic selenium supplement. If the supplement is inorganic,
> absorption would actually be lower.

As selenium is an element it can get into the plant (or animal via the plant) only if
selenium is in the soil. Here in Australia, our soils are ancient and selenium is in very low
quatities on most places. Selenium is possibly the only nutritional supplement needed by a
person eating fresh, natural foods. Perhaps the best example of soils deficient in an
essential element is the soils of much of China which are deficient in iodine and the
consequence is the high incidence of thyroid problems there.
 

Keith






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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#117 From: "Keith Thomas" <keith@...>
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:11 am
Subject: Re: selenium 		keiththomasau
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
"Joel Rosart" wrote
>
>
> Since selenium in food (such as from grains and meat) is contained within an
> amino acid, it must be concluded that it will be absorbed equally well as
> from an organic selenium supplement. If the supplement is inorganic,
> absorption would actually be lower.

As selenium is an element it can get into the plant (or animal via the plant)
only if
selenium is in the soil. Here in Australia, our soils are ancient and selenium
is in very low
quatities on most places. Selenium is possibly the only nutritional supplement
needed by a
person eating fresh, natural foods. Perhaps the best example of soils deficient
in an
essential element is the soils of much of China which are deficient in iodine
and the
consequence is the high incidence of thyroid problems there.

Keith

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#116 From: "Keith Thomas" <keith@...>
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:03 am
Subject: Re: A caution about mis-applying NHE 		keiththomasau
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
"Joel Rosart" wrote:
>
> Keith,
>
> Could I ask how you were damaged permanently? To my knowledge even diabetics
> injecting themselves with large doses of insulin rarely (if ever) do any
> recognizable damage to themselves.
>
> Sorry for being skeptical but I am genuinely interested if this is true! Do
> you still follow NHE now?
>
I don't follow NHE as such now, but I do follow a low carb diet which I
intersperse every
few days with carbs from fruit, carrots and other fresh foods, but not enough to
call my
meals 'carb-load meals'. I also eat nuts. No refined foods, no packaged foods at
all. Plenty
of red meat and plenty of vigorous exercise.

About three years ago I began to get itchy skin, my skin became dry and scaly, I
had
agonizing shooting pains in my left leg (as well as tingling and numbness), I
was up
peeing 3-4 times a night, I was becoming more tired than usual. Cuts and sores
took a
long while to heal and infection was common. Erectile dysfunction started. Blood
tests
showed no abnormalities.

After dropping the excessive carb-load meals all my symptoms disappeared. Now I
sleep
through the night. Have not had an infection for a couple of years (even though
I
experience more cuts from gardening). I'm still exercising vigorously - I
dead-lifted over
twice my bodyweight this morning, then cycled hard (90 inch gear all the way)
15km to
work and another 17km home again. A usual day. And I feel great, just great.

How have I been damaged permanently? The left leg cramps badly at night
(sometimes for
up to two hours: calf, upper foot, hamstrings and quads) if I have more than 4-5
pieces of
fruit in the afternoon, or even a couple of carrots. I don't eat bread, sugar or
potatoes, so
can't say how they would affect me. The cramping is not affected by how much
water I
take in; I have tried all the combinations, believe me! Erectile dysfunction
continues. I still
have some numbness in my left toes, but it's no bother.

Let me repeat what I said at the opening of my post; my problems do not reflect
on NHE -
they reflect on my excessive enthusiasm. I'm passing on this info from my
personal
experiment so that others can read what I say and apply it as they wish.

Keith

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#115 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:35 am
Subject: Re: Thyroid & NHE 		jrosart295
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Mark,
 
Will your friend be doing thyroid hormone replacement? Its not always done and frankly I'm not sure why.....
 
The thyroid is obviously a very important part of the endocrine system; receiving regular thyroid hormone injections instead of producing the hormones endogenously is not going to be optimal but its certainly better than nothing. NHE should still work to optimize the remaining hormones (GH, testosterone, IGF-1, insulin, glucagon, etc.) and produce positive results.
 
NHE promotes a natural, healthful way of eating; this will always produce better results than a diet based heavily on grains.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 


 
On 3/29/06, Mark Miller <mam@...> wrote:
I have a friend that had his thyroid removed due to thyroid cancer. 
He is about to start NHE to help him start to lose the fat that he has
gained because of the thyroid cancer and surgery to remove it.

I was wondering how NHE plays either a positive or negative part with
the lack of a thyroid?

Anyone have any knowledge around this or can direct me somewhere to
get the knowledge?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Mark
18 months on NHE and going strong!





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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)
#114 From: "Mark Miller" <mam@...>
Date: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:28 pm
Subject: Thyroid & NHE 		tlaspec04
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I have a friend that had his thyroid removed due to thyroid cancer.
He is about to start NHE to help him start to lose the fat that he has
gained because of the thyroid cancer and surgery to remove it.

I was wondering how NHE plays either a positive or negative part with
the lack of a thyroid?

Anyone have any knowledge around this or can direct me somewhere to
get the knowledge?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Mark
18 months on NHE and going strong!

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)
#113 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:06 pm
Subject: Re: selenium 		jrosart295
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
 
Selenium supplements
Selenium occurs in staple foods such as corn, wheat, and soybean as selenomethionine, the organic selenium analogue of the amino acid methionine [ 30,31]. Selenomethionine can be incorporated into body proteins in place of methionine, and serves as a vehicle for selenium storage in organs and tissues. Selenium supplements may also contain sodium selenite and sodium selenate, two inorganic forms of selenium. Selenomethionine is generally considered to be the best absorbed and utilized form of selenium.
 
Any supplement contained within an amino acid generally has a very high uptake by the digestive system. This is because the body has a high affinity for absorbing amino acids. Conversely, free form minerals such as potassium or magnesium are generally absorbed at a lower rate because of competition with other minerals in food.
 
Since selenium in food (such as from grains and meat) is contained within an amino acid, it must be concluded that it will be absorbed equally well as from an organic selenium supplement. If the supplement is inorganic, absorption would actually be lower.
 
Rob's case against potassium supplements is that normally this mineral competes with calcium, magnesium, sodium, iron & other minerals for absorption by the body. But when taken alone on an empty stomach, absorption is actually maximized and occurs rapidly. Also, selenium is not problematic in large megadoses, it's only a problem after long term overdosing.
 
I hope that helps!

Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 

 
On 3/27/06, Simon Dankel <simon.dankel@... > wrote:
Would there be a difference in the potential toxicity of selenium in pills compared to in food matrix? I imagine that selenium in foods is potentially less toxic, for example due to lower rate of absorption. Rob has made the same argument in the case of potassium.
 
Simon 

 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Oops, my browser did something funny there......
 
........As well, eating 1 halibut fillet, 12 oysters, 2 hamburgers, 12 shrimp, or 2 cups of chili would all be toxic since they exceed 100 mcg. A more accurate statement on the bottle would have been "total daily intake of selenium exceeding 400 mcg may be toxic". But obviously this is difficult for most people to calculate so they take the easier route.
 
I posted some comments on selenium a few months a go which I have reproduced below:
 
***********
 
Hi all,

If anyone has read Rob's Flu Report and is looking for an easy way to
get more selenium in their diet, consider brazil nuts. 1 oz. (6-8
nuts) contains a whopping 543.5 micrograms. I haven't done the math,
but my gut feel is this'll be cheaper than pills. Most multivitamins
I've looked at contain no more than 100 micrograms (I was taking one
for a while there that had none......)

Interestingly, the Eades recommend not supplementing with any more
than 100 mcg, since meat conatins a fair bit, and consuming too much
selenium puts you at risk of selenosis. Selenium toxicity is rather
nasty involving hair loss and mild nerve damage.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone overdosing on brazil nuts, and
the only reported cases of selenosis have been in industrial
accidents. Therefore, health authorities may simply be imposing
a "safe" limit since they couldn't possibly see the benefit of taking
large doses (as with all other vitamins & minerals).

In any event, I'm happy to take Rob's advice, although I'm really
dying for him to release a supplement review so that this issue and
many others can be laid to rest!

Regards,

Joel
 
 
***********
 
Upon further reading on PubMed, selenium toxicity is very real and can occur at levels over 800 mcg per day. The safe limit would be 600 micrograms, although this is rounded down to 400 mcg to account for individual variation (toxicity levels are directly correlated with body weight).
 
There's a good article I have uploaded to the file section called Selenium - Nutritional, Toxicologic, and Clinical Aspects.pdf if anyone wants to have a quick read.
 
Considering the minimum selenium requirement is around 50 and the maximum is around 800, there's certainly not much room for error!
 
BUT, there's a caveat: the selenium toxicity threshold is raised by vitamins C and E. SO, if someone were supplementing with 9 grams of vitamin C and 1200 I.U. of vitamin E, they could easily handle the 1200 mcg of selenium that Rob recommends taking during infection in his flu report.
 
Conclusion? If your total selenium intake (from diet & supplements) exceeds 600 mcg then make sure you're taking plenty of C and E. I would also say go easy on the brazil nuts, especially since crop variation can produce higher selenium levels on occassion!
 
I'd be interested in the biochemical mechanisms behind vitamins C & E's protective effects if anyone has some insight.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
**********
 
 
So hopefully that helps you with your predicament!
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#112 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:38 pm
Subject: Re: Dreamfields Digestable carbs 		jrosart295
Offline Offline
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Good point Todd. As well, you won't be getting any benefits associated with other carbohydrate sources such as fruits and vegetables.
 
I'd say the pasta is fine to use once in a while, just don't make it an everyday sort of thing.


 
On 3/28/06, Todd Vazquez <quez45@...> wrote:
I'd say to read the other ingredients that are in the pasta. Typically, anytime they make a "carb" food into a low carb version, they pump it with tons of other junk so that it retains it's taste. You would get the benefits of eating a low carb meal, but possibly at the expense of increased additives consumption (which is something I personally try to avoid).

From: HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com [mailto: HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:30 PM
To: HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HormonalFitness] Dreamfields Digestable carbs

 
Anyone have an opinion on the Dreamfields pasta? It claims 5
digestable carbs only and its really good.






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#111 From: Todd Vazquez <quez45@...>
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:24 pm
Subject: RE: Dreamfields Digestable carbs 		quez4521
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I'd say to read the other ingredients that are in the pasta. Typically, anytime they make a "carb" food into a low carb version, they pump it with tons of other junk so that it retains it's taste. You would get the benefits of eating a low carb meal, but possibly at the expense of increased additives consumption (which is something I personally try to avoid).

From: HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com [mailto:HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jason
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2006 2:30 PM
To: HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [HormonalFitness] Dreamfields Digestable carbs

Anyone have an opinion on the Dreamfields pasta? It claims 5
digestable carbs only and its really good.






Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)
#110 From: "Jason" <merlinx@...>
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:29 pm
Subject: Dreamfields Digestable carbs 		topperzx7
Offline Offline
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Anyone have an opinion on the Dreamfields pasta? It claims 5
digestable carbs only and its really good.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)
#109 From: "Simon Dankel" <simon.dankel@...>
Date: Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:38 am
Subject: Re: selenium 		simon_dankel
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Would there be a difference in the potential toxicity of selenium in pills compared to in food matrix? I imagine that selenium in foods is potentially less toxic, for example due to lower rate of absorption. Rob has made the same argument in the case of potassium.
 
Simon 

 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@...> wrote:
Oops, my browser did something funny there......
 
........As well, eating 1 halibut fillet, 12 oysters, 2 hamburgers, 12 shrimp, or 2 cups of chili would all be toxic since they exceed 100 mcg. A more accurate statement on the bottle would have been "total daily intake of selenium exceeding 400 mcg may be toxic". But obviously this is difficult for most people to calculate so they take the easier route.
 
I posted some comments on selenium a few months a go which I have reproduced below:
 
***********
 
Hi all,

If anyone has read Rob's Flu Report and is looking for an easy way to
get more selenium in their diet, consider brazil nuts. 1 oz. (6-8
nuts) contains a whopping 543.5 micrograms. I haven't done the math,
but my gut feel is this'll be cheaper than pills. Most multivitamins
I've looked at contain no more than 100 micrograms (I was taking one
for a while there that had none......)

Interestingly, the Eades recommend not supplementing with any more
than 100 mcg, since meat conatins a fair bit, and consuming too much
selenium puts you at risk of selenosis. Selenium toxicity is rather
nasty involving hair loss and mild nerve damage.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone overdosing on brazil nuts, and
the only reported cases of selenosis have been in industrial
accidents. Therefore, health authorities may simply be imposing
a "safe" limit since they couldn't possibly see the benefit of taking
large doses (as with all other vitamins & minerals).

In any event, I'm happy to take Rob's advice, although I'm really
dying for him to release a supplement review so that this issue and
many others can be laid to rest!

Regards,

Joel
 
 
***********
 
Upon further reading on PubMed, selenium toxicity is very real and can occur at levels over 800 mcg per day. The safe limit would be 600 micrograms, although this is rounded down to 400 mcg to account for individual variation (toxicity levels are directly correlated with body weight).
 
There's a good article I have uploaded to the file section called Selenium - Nutritional, Toxicologic, and Clinical Aspects.pdf if anyone wants to have a quick read.
 
Considering the minimum selenium requirement is around 50 and the maximum is around 800, there's certainly not much room for error!
 
BUT, there's a caveat: the selenium toxicity threshold is raised by vitamins C and E. SO, if someone were supplementing with 9 grams of vitamin C and 1200 I.U. of vitamin E, they could easily handle the 1200 mcg of selenium that Rob recommends taking during infection in his flu report.
 
Conclusion? If your total selenium intake (from diet & supplements) exceeds 600 mcg then make sure you're taking plenty of C and E. I would also say go easy on the brazil nuts, especially since crop variation can produce higher selenium levels on occassion!
 
I'd be interested in the biochemical mechanisms behind vitamins C & E's protective effects if anyone has some insight.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
**********
 
 
So hopefully that helps you with your predicament!
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@... > wrote:
Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#108 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:47 pm
Subject: Re: selenium 		jrosart295
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Oops, my browser did something funny there......
 
........As well, eating 1 halibut fillet, 12 oysters, 2 hamburgers, 12 shrimp, or 2 cups of chili would all be toxic since they exceed 100 mcg. A more accurate statement on the bottle would have been "total daily intake of selenium exceeding 400 mcg may be toxic". But obviously this is difficult for most people to calculate so they take the easier route.
 
I posted some comments on selenium a few months a go which I have reproduced below:
 
***********
 
Hi all,

If anyone has read Rob's Flu Report and is looking for an easy way to
get more selenium in their diet, consider brazil nuts. 1 oz. (6-8
nuts) contains a whopping 543.5 micrograms. I haven't done the math,
but my gut feel is this'll be cheaper than pills. Most multivitamins
I've looked at contain no more than 100 micrograms (I was taking one
for a while there that had none......)

Interestingly, the Eades recommend not supplementing with any more
than 100 mcg, since meat conatins a fair bit, and consuming too much
selenium puts you at risk of selenosis. Selenium toxicity is rather
nasty involving hair loss and mild nerve damage.

Mind you, I've never heard of anyone overdosing on brazil nuts, and
the only reported cases of selenosis have been in industrial
accidents. Therefore, health authorities may simply be imposing
a "safe" limit since they couldn't possibly see the benefit of taking
large doses (as with all other vitamins & minerals).

In any event, I'm happy to take Rob's advice, although I'm really
dying for him to release a supplement review so that this issue and
many others can be laid to rest!

Regards,

Joel
 
 
***********
 
Upon further reading on PubMed, selenium toxicity is very real and can occur at levels over 800 mcg per day. The safe limit would be 600 micrograms, although this is rounded down to 400 mcg to account for individual variation (toxicity levels are directly correlated with body weight).
 
There's a good article I have uploaded to the file section called Selenium - Nutritional, Toxicologic, and Clinical Aspects.pdf if anyone wants to have a quick read.
 
Considering the minimum selenium requirement is around 50 and the maximum is around 800, there's certainly not much room for error!
 
BUT, there's a caveat: the selenium toxicity threshold is raised by vitamins C and E. SO, if someone were supplementing with 9 grams of vitamin C and 1200 I.U. of vitamin E, they could easily handle the 1200 mcg of selenium that Rob recommends taking during infection in his flu report.
 
Conclusion? If your total selenium intake (from diet & supplements) exceeds 600 mcg then make sure you're taking plenty of C and E. I would also say go easy on the brazil nuts, especially since crop variation can produce higher selenium levels on occassion!
 
I'd be interested in the biochemical mechanisms behind vitamins C & E's protective effects if anyone has some insight.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
**********
 
 
So hopefully that helps you with your predicament!
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Joel Rosart <joel.rosart@...> wrote:
Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@... > wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#107 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:38 pm
Subject: Re: selenium 		jrosart295
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Luke,
 
Simply put, your bottle is outrageously wrong. No doubt its the lawyers writing that warning. By that reasoning, eating a handful of brazil nuts would put you FIVE TIMES over the toxicity limit. I find that hard to believe. As well,
 
 
 


 
On 3/27/06, Luke Buckley <bpx_91@...> wrote:
On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#106 From: Luke Buckley <bpx_91@...>
Date: Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:54 pm
Subject: selenium 		bpx_91
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On selenium bottle dosage instructions, it says toxic in dosages exceeding 100mcg/day...this may have been covered in here before but rob recommends doses well over this.....what do we do?
luke

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#105 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:47 pm
Subject: Re: A caution about mis-applying NHE 		jrosart295
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Keith,
 
Could I ask how you were damaged permanently? To my knowledge even diabetics injecting themselves with large doses of insulin rarely (if ever) do any recognizable damage to themselves.
 
Sorry for being skeptical but I am genuinely interested if this is true! Do you still follow NHE now?
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 


 
On 3/25/06, Keith Thomas <keith@...> wrote:
I'd like to post a caution about NHE, but want to make it clear in
the first sentence that this caution does not reflect on NHE as
described by Rob in his book Natural Hormonal Enhancement.
It was more to do with my enthusiasm, thinking I could go one
better than Rob with my carb load meals.

Whereas Rob suggests more than 100g of carbs in the carb load
meal, I went to the extreme of having 300-400g of carbs (and
very low fats and protein), all fruit and root vegetables, in each
carb-load meal. I now feel that this may have been excessive as
I experienced some symptoms of elevated insulin. So – solely on
the basis of my own experience - I would advise people following
the NHE plan to be more moderate, aiming for 100-200g in the
carb load meal, depending on body size.

Has anyone else here experienced anything similar?

If not, it may be that my experience was unique to me and it was
due to other factors such as ageing (I was in my mid-fifties at
the time). But because I seem to have damaged myself permanently
- but only slightly - I wanted to air this here and alert others.

Keith





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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#104 From: "Keith Thomas" <keith@...>
Date: Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:02 am
Subject: A caution about mis-applying NHE 		keiththomasau
Offline Offline
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I'd like to post a caution about NHE, but want to make it clear in
the first sentence that this caution does not reflect on NHE as
described by Rob in his book Natural Hormonal Enhancement.
It was more to do with my enthusiasm, thinking I could go one
better than Rob with my carb load meals.

Whereas Rob suggests more than 100g of carbs in the carb load
meal, I went to the extreme of having 300-400g of carbs (and
very low fats and protein), all fruit and root vegetables, in each
carb-load meal. I now feel that this may have been excessive as
I experienced some symptoms of elevated insulin. So – solely on
the basis of my own experience - I would advise people following
the NHE plan to be more moderate, aiming for 100-200g in the
carb load meal, depending on body size.

Has anyone else here experienced anything similar?

If not, it may be that my experience was unique to me and it was
due to other factors such as ageing (I was in my mid-fifties at
the time). But because I seem to have damaged myself permanently
- but only slightly - I wanted to air this here and alert others.

Keith

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (6)
#103 From: "Simon Dankel" <simon.dankel@...>
Date: Mon Mar 13, 2006 7:33 pm
Subject: Re: HIE lifting substitutes 		simon_dankel
Offline Offline
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Cable crossover --> dumbell flye

For pulldowns/pushdowns, I suggest you invest in a machine if you have
space for it. If you have one cable, you can do pulldowns, pushdowns,
jockey rows, seated single arm or close-grip rows and straight-arm
pulldowns.

maybe you could even get a cable crossover machine:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Selectorized-Cable-Crossover-Machine-FREE-SHIPPING_W0QQi\
temZ7226040896QQcategoryZ15281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

or
http://cgi.ebay.com/Heavy-Duty-SELECTORIZED-Cable-Crossover-Workout-Machine_W0QQ\
itemZ7225095800QQcategoryZ15281QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

You could always sell it again on ebay if your situation changes :)

Simon


On 3/13/06, flaminghotsauce2000 <flaminghotsauce2000@...> wrote:
> I am doing "beginner" home workouts. A gym is totally out of the
> quesion, there isn't one nearby, and I'm not taking all my kids (I
> would have to).  This week I want to start, but there are some things
> I can't do such as:
>
> Cable crossovers
> Pulldowns
> Pushdowns
>
> What alternates can I use *at home*?
>
> Thanks for any input!
>
> Regards,
>
> Renae
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#102 From: "flaminghotsauce2000" <flaminghotsauce2000@...>
Date: Mon Mar 13, 2006 6:51 pm
Subject: HIE lifting substitutes 		flaminghotsa...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I am doing "beginner" home workouts. A gym is totally out of the
quesion, there isn't one nearby, and I'm not taking all my kids (I
would have to).  This week I want to start, but there are some things
I can't do such as:

Cable crossovers
Pulldowns
Pushdowns

What alternates can I use *at home*?

Thanks for any input!

Regards,

Renae

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (13)
#101 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:26 pm
Subject: Re: Re: worldmuscle 2003 doesn't like HIE 		jrosart295
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Guy, why the sudden interest in dredging up these old posts? The assertion that Rob took steroids is a fairly serious claim, most likely coming from someone utterly deluded by what can be accomplished naturally.
 
One must remember that HIE has fewer scientific references for several reasons:
 
a) Many of them are in NHE (which Rob refers to frequently)
b) There are fewer articles on just exercise then there are on diet, lifestyle and exercise combined (as with NHE)
c) An exercise plan can't be referenced. To my knowledge, there aren't many double blind, placebo-controlled exercise studies. That doesn't even make sense. Anyone formulating exercise plans must draw on studies regarding specific exercises, repetition ranges, etc.. The rest must come from practical experience in the gym.
 
The pot shot at not using huge exercise models is ridiculous since Rob obviously did this to cater to a larger audience.
 
Regards,
 
Joel
 
 


 
On 3/12/06, flaminghotsauce2000 <flaminghotsauce2000@...> wrote:
My sincere apologies for misunderstanding.  *blushing*  I'm very glad
you're not the rabble rouser!

Regards,

Renae



--- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com , "gvanpolanen"
<guyvan_polanen@...> wrote:
>
>
> It's not my post friend i toke the post from the old yahoo NHE site
> The guy who wrote this text about Rob is Worldmuscle 2003.
>
> My name is Guy van polanen.
>
> next time read better my friend
>
> greetings Guy
>
>
> --- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com, "flaminghotsauce2000"
> <flaminghotsauce2000@> wrote:
> >
> > If you don't like it, then don't use it.  Why try to discourage
> > newbies like me?  Sounds like you're selling something.
> >
> > Aside from the lack of articles in HIE, I don't have a problem with
> > it. It gives those of us with a chaotic schedule a good jumping-off
> > point.  THere was *demand* for this book before it was ever
> written.
> > Rob responded to that demand.  Take your arguments to the source.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com, "gvanpolanen"
> > <guyvan_polanen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalHormonalEnhancement/
> > >
> > > Just letting everyone on the mailing list know I recently picked
> up
> > > HIE.
> > > Its nothing like NHE and doesn't encompass the true research Rob
> > > should have
> > > done.  It comes across as Rob's attempt at trying to create a
> sort of
> > > original weightlifting cycling program but without the research
> to
> > > back up
> > > most of his "hypothese."  A few of the pictures he places in the
> book
> > > also
> > > worry me, Rob with 13.5'' arms yet another picture of Rob hitting
> a
> > > heavy
> > > bag with 17'' arms.. If Rob didn't want people to figure out he
> took
> > > steroids he shouldn't have put those pictures in the book.  Not
> to
> > > mention
> > > many of the excercises demonstrated in the book are done with
> > > horrible form,
> > > and by a guy who looks like he weighs 140lbs and hasn't lifted
> more
> > > than a
> > > week in his life!
> > >
> > >
> > > You'll just have to read it for yourself, I could go through 95%
> of
> > > the book
> > > and tear it to shreds when it comes to true application, but I
> > > believe the
> > > book is a joke save for few parts on how the body responds to low
> rep
> > > training and moderate rep training, and was put out quickly to
> take
> > > advantage of the popularity of NHE and to make more profit.
> > >
> > >
> > > greetings Guy
> > >
> >
>







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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (5)
#100 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 10:08 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Negative talk by Lyle Mcdonald against Rob Faigin 		jrosart295
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Guy,
 
Wasn't Lyle McDonald's obvious dislike of Rob brought up in the previous forum? I think I even responded to a couple of them.
 
Anyhow, I can't claim to be an expert on Lyle, but in general I find his writing style tends to meander all over the place, be largely unsubstantiated by research (his articles, not his books) and inelegant. How can we respond to his arguments when he's obviously too lazy (self confessed) to back them up? We also must remember that Lyle is focused heavily on body recomposition (hence the name of his website) and doesn't spend a proportional amount of time on health issues in general.
 
Why is Lyle so heavily opposed to Rob's ideas? Because they conflict with his own. The dismissal of GH as an important body recomposition hormone is outright ridiculous. Rob has never held that GH will make someone grow mammoth muscles. Testosterone is required in large amounts, hence why women don't get big. Could the proportionally higher GH output by women during exercise be the result of having less testosterone? I couldn't tell you, but I'd love to see the article he's talking about!!!
 
Glucagon. Ughh. What a can of worms you've opened Guy! Rob made specific mention in NHE on page 79: "...in order to actualize the fat-burning potential of glucagon, liver glycogen saturation must be avoided." So any study that says glucagon does squat for fat mobilization tested in the general population would be right. All it would do is mobilize glycogen from the liver. But in a fat adapted state the story is different.
 
Gatorade during exercise? Wow. I think Rob has answered that one already.
 
Lyle seems to equate eating protein with consuming a single amino acid in large quantities (glutamate). How large a mistake is this?!?!
 
Guy, I'd love to discuss any of these issues in more detail with you, but trying to respond to all of this is driving me nuts!
 
Cheers,
 
Joel
 
 


 
On 3/12/06, gvanpolanen <guyvan_polanen@...> wrote:
I want Simon and Joel opinon about this i already sent this text to
Rob Faigin.


this is lyle mcdonald http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/

greetings Guy van polanen from the Netherlands


--- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com, "flaminghotsauce2000"

<flaminghotsauce2000@...> wrote:
>
> I teach my children that the last refuge of somebody who is losing
an
> argument is in ad hominem attacks and vilification.  And those with
a
> poor vocabulary will resort to invective and profanity.
>
> I couldn't care less who this person is, but my opinion of him is
> quite low based on his comments.  Common decency goes a long way. I
> hope you aren't hoping to win converts by posting foul-mouthed
diatribes.
>
>
>
>
> --- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com, "gvanpolanen"
> <guyvan_polanen@> wrote:
> >
> > Negative talk by Lyle Mcdonald against Rob Faigin NHE diet.
> >
> > faigin = retard, which is why I won't bother downloading this
stupid
> > PDF
> >
> > case in point: women release more GH than men during trainnig
> > Question: do women grow better?
> > Answer: fuck no
> > conclusion: GH means fuckall for growth
> > Question: why is Faigin (again = retard) still worrying about the
GH
> > response to training
> > Answer: cuz he's a retard
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> > three way cage match of stupidity
> >
> > first corner: NHE
> > second corner: Lights Out
> > third corner: The Warrior diet
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > Rob Faigin is a retard.
> >
> > The sodium/potassium ratio in our normal diet has no relevance to
> > what's optimal for fluid electrolyte repletin around/during
exercise.
> >
> > I use gatorade pre/during/post workout. I'd prefer somethign more
> > concentrated (and with more glucose relative to sucrose or
fructose)
> > but it's too hard to find and I'm too lazy to track it down.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > PhD's do it all the time. Kraemer's books are all fully
referenced
> > all fully retarded.
> >
> > The ability to reference research says nothing about your ability
to
> > understand it and his work (I have read NHE) is a catalog of
mistakes
> > and errors. See also Claytid's response.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > NHE has plenty of very basic mistakes, mistakes taht Faigin still
> > holds too even though there's plenty of data that says he's
wrong.
> >
> > The biggest htat I can recall off the top of my ahead, the issue
with
> > glucagon (he's not alone in this particular screwup, Sears and
many
> > others makes it, even DAn made it in Bodyopus).
> >
> > glucagon is a potent fat mobilizer in rats.
> >
> > multiple studies show that it does NOTHING to fat cells in
humans.
> > it affects ONLY liver metabolism
> >
> > so all of his crap about lowering insulin and increasing glucagon
and
> > that affecting fat mobiilzation, just completely and utterly
wrong.
> >
> > there's other stuff. Someone posted some moronic piece by him
just
> > last week (something about how calorie counting doesn't work)
that it
> > just filled with the same old stupid crap about the energy
balance
> > equation. It's nice a mix of factoids and nonsense/bad logic.
> >
> > Probably why lawyers shouldn't try to write about physiology.
> > It'd be as bad as me trying to write about the law.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > Also, his whole emphasis on the GH thing. Retarded.
> >
> > Especially to think that GH is somehow anabolic in a low-insulin
> > state. not that GH is that relevant in the first place. But if GH
has
> > any anabolic role at all, it certainly doesn't when insulin is
low
> > (as on a low-carb diet).
> >
> > Again, he's not the first to make that mistake but it's still
wrong.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > Berardi has the same issue that faign has with glucagon he mis-
> > represents its role in human biochemistry
> >
> > Berardi often speaks about the powerful fat oxidizing effects of
> > glucagon
> >
> > coach hale
> >
> >
> > How many times does it need to be mentioned that Faigin is a
retard?
> >
> > B/c the thing with MSG being a neurotoxin is taht every s tudy
ever
> > done showing it uses injections directly into the brain. usually
at
> > massive doses in developing rats. What relevance this has to
adult
> > humans consuming it orally I've yet to determine.
> >
> > except that, since it's fucking sodium bonded to glutamate (an
> > excitatory amino acid that yo'ure going to get in high quantities
by
> > eating protein), I'm still not sure what the issue with the stuff
is.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > Ask Rob and the reports, there's not another person in the world
who
> > has spent more time answering readers' questions and providing
free
> > fitness information online than I have while writing more than
500
> > pages of published text (NHE and HIE). And I can tell you this,
as a
> > very experienced writer: producing a book containing 270 pinpoint
> > scientific references (HIE) takes at least three times as long as
> > writing a book of the same amount of words that does not
specifically
> > cite supporting published research for nearly every major
assertion
> > in the book"
> >
> > My book had 600+ references (that I actually understood) in 325
pages
> > and he's a total dip.
> >
> > and between mfw, forums, mailing lists and a simple google
search, I
> > can assure you I've put in more time. And actually given correct
> > information.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
> >
> > Glucagon doesn't affect human fat cell metabolism and the
increase in
> > metabolic rate from adding muscle is pretty much irrelevant
(roughly
> > 6 cal/lb). Anoop pointed out the other problem with his logic,
his
> > mistake is thinking that the calorie balance equation is static
which
> > it isn't. It includes BMR, TEF, TEA and NEAT all of which can
change
> > with weight gain/overeating and weight loss/undereating.
> >
> > The rest of it, the effect of fiber on fat absorption, the small
> > difference in unsaturated fat oxidation vs. other types of fat
> > amounts to 3/5th of jack squat. Especially compared to the rather
> > large variance in human food intake day to day.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> >
> > about HIE
> >
> > Haven't read it, but if he has the same focus as in NHE on GH
> > release, then he's only 10-15 years out of date, working from a
model
> > that is basically fairly irrelevant.
> >
> > Lyle
> >
>






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#99 From: "Joel Rosart" <joel.rosart@...>
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 8:53 pm
Subject: Re: Pictures of yourself 		jrosart295
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Haha, I've never taken pictures of myself. My situation is pretty similar to Simon's; I was a skinny runt until NHE inspired me to put on some weight.
 
I'm about to go on a 12 week "cutting" diet (basically just the general eating plan) before going on holidays in June. How about I try some amateur photography after my abs reappear? At 12% now they're more of a 4 pack =)
 


 
On 3/11/06, gvanpolanen <guyvan_polanen@...> wrote:
Hi guys


After hearing all those fantastic results from everybody on NHE i've
become very curious to see your results on pictures.

especially from Joe and Simon because you two are using this diet for
many years already.

I can't wait to see some pictures.

greetings Guy from the Netherlands




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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)
#98 From: "Simon Dankel" <simon.dankel@...>
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 4:09 pm
Subject: Lyle 		simon_dankel
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Guy,

what do I have to prove to you? Have you yourself utterly failed
applying NHE? I have never insisted on "incredible results", and all I
wish for is to have great health and be able to make the right
decisions based on reliable knowledge. I'm not a bodybuilder per se,
though I used to be extremely skinny (191cm, 68kg) and now I'm
comfortably athletic (191cm, 85kg) after lifting weights. But at the
same time I have suffered a serious case of insomnia up until this
day. My potential is probably much greater but I will have to overcome
my sleep problem permanently to have something exceptional to show
for. What I know is that Rob's philosophy inspires me, and using the
knowledge contained in Rob's books has helped me improve my well-being
considerably. I do remain humble about how hormones influence health,
and find Lyle's arguments intriguing (though terribly obnoxious). I
would be interested to hear if Rob bothers to answer. He didn't bother
to comment on Lyle's "misinformation" when I asked him about Lyle once
before. Judging by Lyle's attitude I can see why Rob wouldn't bother
about his comments - people will question his credibility and lack of
humbleness.

If you doubt Rob, why don't you ask Lyle to properly structure and
back up his arguments and have him prove his case in a proper
discussion with Rob? If he feels so confident in his arguments, he
could only gain stature by denting the theories of a highly respected
individual like Rob - if he does it in a convincing way, that is.

Respectfully,
Simon

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#97 From: "flaminghotsauce2000" <flaminghotsauce2000@...>
Date: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:26 pm
Subject: Re: worldmuscle 2003 doesn't like HIE 		flaminghotsa...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
My sincere apologies for misunderstanding.  *blushing*  I'm very glad
you're not the rabble rouser!

Regards,

Renae


--- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com, "gvanpolanen"
<guyvan_polanen@...> wrote:
>
>
> It's not my post friend i toke the post from the old yahoo NHE site
> The guy who wrote this text about Rob is Worldmuscle 2003.
>
> My name is Guy van polanen.
>
> next time read better my friend
>
> greetings Guy
>
>
> --- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com, "flaminghotsauce2000"
> <flaminghotsauce2000@> wrote:
> >
> > If you don't like it, then don't use it.  Why try to discourage
> > newbies like me?  Sounds like you're selling something.
> >
> > Aside from the lack of articles in HIE, I don't have a problem with
> > it. It gives those of us with a chaotic schedule a good jumping-off
> > point.  THere was *demand* for this book before it was ever
> written.
> > Rob responded to that demand.  Take your arguments to the source.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In HormonalFitness@yahoogroups.com, "gvanpolanen"
> > <guyvan_polanen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/NaturalHormonalEnhancement/
> > >
> > > Just letting everyone on the mailing list know I recently picked
> up
> > > HIE.
> > > Its nothing like NHE and doesn't encompass the true research Rob
> > > should have
> > > done.  It comes across as Rob's attempt at trying to create a
> sort of
> > > original weightlifting cycling program but without the research
> to
> > > back up
> > > most of his "hypothese."  A few of the pictures he places in the
> book
> > > also
> > > worry me, Rob with 13.5'' arms yet another picture of Rob hitting
> a
> > > heavy
> > > bag with 17'' arms.. If Rob didn't want people to figure out he
> took
> > > steroids he shouldn't have put those pictures in the book.  Not
> to
> > > mention
> > > many of the excercises demonstrated in the book are done with
> > > horrible form,
> > > and by a guy who looks like he weighs 140lbs and hasn't lifted
> more
> > > than a
> > > week in his life!
> > >
> > >
> > > You'll just have to read it for yourself, I could go through 95%
> of
> > > the book
> > > and tear it to shreds when it comes to true application, but I
> > > believe the
> > > book is a joke save for few parts on how the body responds to low
> rep
> > > training and moderate rep training, and was put out quickly to
> take
> > > advantage of the popularity of NHE and to make more profit.
> > >
> > >
> > > greetings Guy
> > >
> >
>

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