clint michels wrote:
  >
  >
  > ok, id like go against the grain a little bit here and get some info
from you folks. ive been doing the atkins diet ( <20 per day) for the
last month. i have to say it works alot better then just doing what
mentzer says is the "optimal" diet plan.

I'd agree. I've been on a low carb plan for a year and a half now and
have stripped 90 lbs off. Now the trick is to keep adding muscle and try
to hold my bf% where  it is.

  > 1. you can eat as much as you want as long as your carbs are low. in
his book dr. atkins states this isnt a true statement, but that leads me
to reason #2.
  >

Depends what you believe. Here's a study where the fed people on a low
carb diet up to *5400* additional calories from corn oil before they
started putting on weight. Perhaps there's a limit to how much fat the
body can deal with at once, but it does kind of throw a wrench in
calorie theory.

"In normal subjects, the fat content of a formula diet in the form of
corn oil and olive oil (but with constant carbohydrate and protein
intake) was raised continuously up to a daily ingestion of more than
6,800 fat calories. Under normal utilization of fat in the
gastrointestinal tract, it was seen that there was only a slight weight
gain, compared with the caloric intake. This effect was particularly
conspicuous with corn oil and less so with olive oil. The two oils
differ by their linoleic acid content. Based on these results, we
treated obese subjects with high fat, low carbohydrate diets. If the
carbohydrate content of the diet was not more than 50 to 60 g/day and
the fat content approximately 150 g/day, an average daily weight
reduction of 0.3 kg was achieved. The cholesterol and triglyceride
concentrations in the serum, which had been raised at the beginning of
the experiment, invariably showed a tendency towards normalization under
this dietary program."

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/26/2/197

  > although mentzer developed the system of hit extremely well, i dont
think he looked at the diet objectively enough. ill be posting more on
this in the future. im hoping this sparks some interesting discussion as
this board has been very sparse as of late.

OTOH, he seemed to feel nutrition was of smaller importance than most.

Hi Clint glad to hear the training is going well.
I was interested how good do you rate your genetics for weight
training? Do you tend to carry more muscle than most naturally.
  Cheers Jeremy

>
> yes i have. ive been really with school, so it works out well.  the
last great strength feat id did was a 300 lbs stack on leg extentions
at golds for many reps very controlled/ and super set with leg
presses. ive never felt that beat down after a workout. i only did
those two exercises and some calf raises.
>
>   on a side note ive been on almost 0-30 carbs a day for the last 2
weeks. and i feel amazing!!! i havent had this so called "crash" yet
and not only that but i can actually think at a more effective rate
then i could before. ive added walking about 20-50 minutes about every
other day as ive read in certain books that this can help clear the
system of carbs and speed up fat loss. ive lost somewhere around 10-15
lbs in 2 weeks. i dont know how much if any is muscle but when i look
in the mirror it looks better everyday. SOLID.
>    sadly wasnt paying any attention to my diet and ballooned up to
around id say 25-30 % bf.
>   as of now i think ive lost a good 5-10% of that. i did do alot of
reading on it before i started and i took the good w/the bad. i
reasoned that in some parts of the world, throughout history, there
were certain cultures of man who could only eat meat and didnt have
access to any vegitables. even some cultures today dont eat anything
but meat do to limited access and have extrodinary builds.
>   i try to be creative and i dont really get to board with the foods
im eating. i usually eat as much as i want everyday as long as i keep
my carbs down, and still keep losing. this whole keytone thing is more
effective then most think. another bonus of this diet is that it keeps
your craving at like a zero. i have to force myself to eat somtimes.
anyhow ill keep you posted. im going to keep training as i have been
although i might lower the intensity just a bit as i have enough mass
and just want to maintain while i lose fat. ill keep everyone posted.
>
>
>   <by the way..i just got my hd 2 book in the mail by the way and
its a EXCELLENT READ, not a whole lot of new info as ive learned about
as much of mentzer  as possible but alot of stimulating point in
different words. i really liked how he talks about  health as a whole
mentally and physically. the man just knew his stuff on life and i
think he was just  too advances for his time. people and buisness just
werent ready for his views.>
>
> "Perez, Miguel" <metalhead2_mx@...> wrote:
>           Hey, Clint, I remember you were training with an extremely low
> frequency, once every two or possibly three weeks, and seeing great
> results for a while. How has that been going lately? Do you still
> train that way and does it still work?
>
> Miguel
>
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail and any attachments are intended
only for the use of those to whom it is addressed and may contain
information that is confidential and prohibited from further
disclosure under law. If you have received this e-mail in error, its
review, use, retention and/or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply
e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any
attachments.[v1.0]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every
day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are
only so many tommorrows.  -----MICHEAL LANDON
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
Yahoo! FareChase.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

ok, id like go against the grain a little bit here and get some info from you
folks. ive been doing the atkins diet ( <20 per day) for the last month. i have
to say it works alot better then just doing what mentzer says is the "optimal"
diet plan.

   now before any of you start replying to this  post id like you to at least
read his book "the new atkins revolution". it goes in to great detail about why
atkins is so successfull . also he gives multiple upon multiple examples and
case studies.

   now keep in mind i was overweight (around 30%) when i started, and ive been
dropping a  couple lbs every 2-3 days. and i can assure you its not muscle. but
i can usually eat as much as i want as long as i stay in the induction phase.
also i  havent even "burnt out" like so many of these body builders state when
they go on low carb. ( the reason they crash is because their calories are too
low

   the 3 main reason that atkins works so well ill list.

   1. you can eat as much as you want as long as your carbs are low. in his book
dr. atkins states this isnt a true statement, but that leads me to reason #2.

   2. with your carb levels stable from all the fat and protien, youll have about
0 cravings. which can present a small problem  since you need above adequate
calories to maintain muscle mass. to rememdy this i add lots of fatty oils to my
low carb protien shakes, and i love using no carb manaise on all my meet (
tastes delicious, make sure you play around with foods to keep your appetite up)

   3. your body eats pure fat up as long as you stay in the state of keytosis.
also there are multiple health benefits such as lowering hypertention, and
keeping you bad cholesterol. down.

   although mentzer developed the system of hit extremely well, i dont think he
looked at the diet objectively enough. ill be posting more on this in the
future. im hoping this sparks some interesting discussion as this board has been
very sparse as of late.


"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
  in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cheers Miguel.
I have just started a more volume based workout that a friend has had
great results from. I am doing 4 sets sometimes 3 per exercise .Two or
3 exercises a body part 3 times a week [3 way split] but trying to
resist the temptation of going to failure. I have not been on a
program that doesn't include reps to failure before. I am hoping the
change in pace and extra sets work.
The increased number of sets has resulted in baking off the intensity
a while as you suggested.
  Jeremy

>
> Jeremy,
>
> That sucks that you didn't gain any size from all that work.
Anyway, you did gain a lot of strength, and that will eventually lead
you to mass gains if you consolidate your strength increases and don't
let them disappear.   Maybe you could now drop back into a less
demanding maintenance routine with the heavier weights you can now
move, and stay with that routine for awhile just maintaining.  I've
always felt that real strength gains mean that not only can you move
heavier weights now, but you can handle them with the same level of
effort it took to handle the lighter weights you were using before,
with the same quality of execution.
>
> That kind of gains will stay with you, as opposed to going from 110
kilos with good form and focus to 140 kilos with a shortened ROM,
choppy form, fewer reps, and no quad focus.   Nope -- that 140 kilos
should feel just as manageable as did the 110 kilos before.  If it
doesn't you didn't get stronger, you're just straining more.
>
> I think you need to keep eating well, rest, and back off on the
training for a little while, either in intensity or training
frequency, maybe even lighten the loads or do fewer sets temporarily
while your body catches up.  You're burned out.
>
> Miguel
>
>
>
>
>
> Confidentiality Notice:  This e-mail and any attachments are
intended only for the use of those to whom it is addressed and may
contain information that is confidential and prohibited from further
disclosure under law. If you have received this e-mail in error, its
review, use, retention and/or distribution is strictly prohibited. If
you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply
e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any
attachments.[v1.0]
> -----Original Message-----
>
> From: Miguel Angel Perez [mailto:metalhead2_mx@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:58 AM
> To: Perez, Miguel
> Subject: Rv: [HIT Digest] Re: Results of my new workout correction
>
>
>
> --- hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@... escribió:
>
>  Para: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
>  De: "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@...
>  Fecha: Sun, 13 May 2007 18:32:59 -0000
>  Asunto: [HIT Digest] Re: Results of my new workout
>  correction
>
>   I read this and realized it comes across as if I
>  have put on muscle
>  when I was trying to say I haven't, apart from
>  perhaps a bit on my
>  back. I put on no weight apart from when like I said
>  I ate more nuts
>  etc and that was fat.
>
>  Jeremy
>
>
>
>
>    Well thought Id mention how I got on with my new
>  workout which was
>   Casler style [three work sets 20r/10r/5r]
>
>    I started properly early November and on nearly
>  every workout since
>   [3 times a week] I have gotten stronger on at
>  least one set often
>   every set of a exercise and sometimes all
>  exercises.
>   As I expected I was getting a rep or two more
>  usually. I do recall
>   occasionally adding weight and reps.
>   I added 30 kilos to my 5 rep squat set it has to
>  be noted though that
>   half way through the cycle I went up a pin. On the
>  big exercises I
>   added about 10 or twelve kilos per set.
>   I really enjoyed the extra time in the gym and
>  working in different
>   rep ranges.
>
>   The strange thing is have put on much muscle but I
>  do feel my back has
>   grown [thickened] and has a bit more detail, but
>  my arms and legs are
>   the same as before. I have had problems with
>  injury so I haven't
>   trained my triceps throughout and when I have its
>  been a low ROM. I
>   also  was only able to train my chest and
>  shoulders for a few months
>   due to injury. But the leg and back work have been
>  used constantly. I
>   did have a few weeks off training altogether.
>
>
>   I was taking in more protein than I normally would
>  do.
>   I haven't been able to get my hands on protein for
>  a few weeks so I
>   have tended to eat more nuts etc. This has led to
>  a weight increase
>   but it seems to be fat.
>
>   Thinking about it my back had the most constant
>  volume and seems to
>   have improved which is interesting.
>
>   I am still  getting a rep here and there more on
>  the workout but feel
>   its starting to run its course as I will improve
>  on one set then the
>   next one I will lose a few reps.
>
>   I would have thought strength increases without
>  resulting growth can
>   happen to a point and its individual but I must
>  have had enough
>   calories if I put on some fat. And surely strength
>  increases require a
>   good amount of calories to be  consumed?
>
>   Any thoughts welcome
>   Jeremy
>

Jeremy,

That sucks that you didn't gain any size from all that work.  Anyway, you did
gain a lot of strength, and that will eventually lead you to mass gains if you
consolidate your strength increases and don't let them disappear.   Maybe you
could now drop back into a less demanding maintenance routine with the heavier
weights you can now move, and stay with that routine for awhile just
maintaining.  I've always felt that real strength gains mean that not only can
you move heavier weights now, but you can handle them with the same level of
effort it took to handle the lighter weights you were using before, with the
same quality of execution.

That kind of gains will stay with you, as opposed to going from 110 kilos with
good form and focus to 140 kilos with a shortened ROM, choppy form, fewer reps,
and no quad focus.   Nope -- that 140 kilos should feel just as manageable as
did the 110 kilos before.  If it doesn't you didn't get stronger, you're just
straining more.

I think you need to keep eating well, rest, and back off on the training for a
little while, either in intensity or training frequency, maybe even lighten the
loads or do fewer sets temporarily while your body catches up.  You're burned
out.

Miguel





Confidentiality Notice:  This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for
the use of those to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is
confidential and prohibited from further disclosure under law. If you have
received this e-mail in error, its review, use, retention and/or distribution is
strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any
attachments.[v1.0]
-----Original Message-----

From: Miguel Angel Perez [mailto:metalhead2_mx@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2007 8:58 AM
To: Perez, Miguel
Subject: Rv: [HIT Digest] Re: Results of my new workout correction



--- hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@... escribió:

  Para: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
  De: "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@...
  Fecha: Sun, 13 May 2007 18:32:59 -0000
  Asunto: [HIT Digest] Re: Results of my new workout
  correction

   I read this and realized it comes across as if I
  have put on muscle
  when I was trying to say I haven't, apart from
  perhaps a bit on my
  back. I put on no weight apart from when like I said
  I ate more nuts
  etc and that was fat.

  Jeremy




    Well thought Id mention how I got on with my new
  workout which was
   Casler style [three work sets 20r/10r/5r]

    I started properly early November and on nearly
  every workout since
   [3 times a week] I have gotten stronger on at
  least one set often
   every set of a exercise and sometimes all
  exercises.
   As I expected I was getting a rep or two more
  usually. I do recall
   occasionally adding weight and reps.
   I added 30 kilos to my 5 rep squat set it has to
  be noted though that
   half way through the cycle I went up a pin. On the
  big exercises I
   added about 10 or twelve kilos per set.
   I really enjoyed the extra time in the gym and
  working in different
   rep ranges.

   The strange thing is have put on much muscle but I
  do feel my back has
   grown [thickened] and has a bit more detail, but
  my arms and legs are
   the same as before. I have had problems with
  injury so I haven't
   trained my triceps throughout and when I have its
  been a low ROM. I
   also  was only able to train my chest and
  shoulders for a few months
   due to injury. But the leg and back work have been
  used constantly. I
   did have a few weeks off training altogether.


   I was taking in more protein than I normally would
  do.
   I haven't been able to get my hands on protein for
  a few weeks so I
   have tended to eat more nuts etc. This has led to
  a weight increase
   but it seems to be fat.

   Thinking about it my back had the most constant
  volume and seems to
   have improved which is interesting.

   I am still  getting a rep here and there more on
  the workout but feel
   its starting to run its course as I will improve
  on one set then the
   next one I will lose a few reps.

   I would have thought strength increases without
  resulting growth can
   happen to a point and its individual but I must
  have had enough
   calories if I put on some fat. And surely strength
  increases require a
   good amount of calories to be  consumed?

   Any thoughts welcome
   Jeremy

yes i have. ive been really with school, so it works out well.  the last great
strength feat id did was a 300 lbs stack on leg extentions at golds for many
reps very controlled/ and super set with leg presses. ive never felt that beat
down after a workout. i only did those two exercises and some calf raises.

   on a side note ive been on almost 0-30 carbs a day for the last 2 weeks. and i
feel amazing!!! i havent had this so called "crash" yet and not only that but i
can actually think at a more effective rate then i could before. ive added
walking about 20-50 minutes about every other day as ive read in certain books
that this can help clear the system of carbs and speed up fat loss. ive lost
somewhere around 10-15 lbs in 2 weeks. i dont know how much if any is muscle but
when i look in the mirror it looks better everyday. SOLID.
    sadly wasnt paying any attention to my diet and ballooned up to around id say
25-30 % bf.
   as of now i think ive lost a good 5-10% of that. i did do alot of reading on
it before i started and i took the good w/the bad. i reasoned that in some parts
of the world, throughout history, there were certain cultures of man who could
only eat meat and didnt have access to any vegitables. even some cultures today
dont eat anything but meat do to limited access and have extrodinary builds.
   i try to be creative and i dont really get to board with the foods im eating.
i usually eat as much as i want everyday as long as i keep my carbs down, and
still keep losing. this whole keytone thing is more effective then most think.
another bonus of this diet is that it keeps your craving at like a zero. i have
to force myself to eat somtimes. anyhow ill keep you posted. im going to keep
training as i have been although i might lower the intensity just a bit as i
have enough mass and just want to maintain while i lose fat. ill keep everyone
posted.


   <by the way..i just got my hd 2 book in the mail by the way and its a
EXCELLENT READ, not a whole lot of new info as ive learned about as much of
mentzer  as possible but alot of stimulating point in different words. i really
liked how he talks about  health as a whole mentally and physically. the man
just knew his stuff on life and i think he was just  too advances for his time.
people and buisness just werent ready for his views.>

"Perez, Miguel" <metalhead2_mx@...> wrote:
           Hey, Clint, I remember you were training with an extremely low
frequency, once every two or possibly three weeks, and seeing great
results for a while. How has that been going lately? Do you still
train that way and does it still work?

Miguel



Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for
the use of those to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is
confidential and prohibited from further disclosure under law. If you have
received this e-mail in error, its review, use, retention and/or distribution is
strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any
attachments.[v1.0]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo!
FareChase.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I read this and realized it comes across as if I have put on muscle
when I was trying to say I haven't, apart from perhaps a bit on my
back. I put on no weight apart from when like I said I ate more nuts
etc and that was fat.

Jeremy



>
>  Well thought Id mention how I got on with my new workout which was
> Casler style [three work sets 20r/10r/5r]
>
>  I started properly early November and on nearly every workout since
> [3 times a week] I have gotten stronger on at least one set often
> every set of a exercise and sometimes all exercises.
> As I expected I was getting a rep or two more usually. I do recall
> occasionally adding weight and reps.
> I added 30 kilos to my 5 rep squat set it has to be noted though that
> half way through the cycle I went up a pin. On the big exercises I
> added about 10 or twelve kilos per set.
> I really enjoyed the extra time in the gym and working in different
> rep ranges.
>
> The strange thing is have put on much muscle but I do feel my back has
> grown [thickened] and has a bit more detail, but my arms and legs are
> the same as before. I have had problems with injury so I haven't
> trained my triceps throughout and when I have its been a low ROM. I
> also  was only able to train my chest and shoulders for a few months
> due to injury. But the leg and back work have been used constantly. I
> did have a few weeks off training altogether.
>
>
> I was taking in more protein than I normally would do.
> I haven't been able to get my hands on protein for a few weeks so I
> have tended to eat more nuts etc. This has led to a weight increase
> but it seems to be fat.
>
> Thinking about it my back had the most constant volume and seems to
> have improved which is interesting.
>
> I am still  getting a rep here and there more on the workout but feel
> its starting to run its course as I will improve on one set then the
> next one I will lose a few reps.
>
> I would have thought strength increases without resulting growth can
> happen to a point and its individual but I must have had enough
> calories if I put on some fat. And surely strength increases require a
> good amount of calories to be  consumed?
>
> Any thoughts welcome
> Jeremy
>

Hey, Clint, I remember you were training with an extremely low
frequency, once every two or possibly three weeks, and seeing great
results for a while.  How has that been going lately?  Do you still
train that way and does it still work?

Miguel



Confidentiality Notice:  This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for
the use of those to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is
confidential and prohibited from further disclosure under law. If you have
received this e-mail in error, its review, use, retention and/or distribution is
strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any
attachments.[v1.0]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well thought Id mention how I got on with my new workout which was
Casler style [three work sets 20r/10r/5r]

  I started properly early November and on nearly every workout since
[3 times a week] I have gotten stronger on at least one set often
every set of a exercise and sometimes all exercises.
As I expected I was getting a rep or two more usually. I do recall
occasionally adding weight and reps.
I added 30 kilos to my 5 rep squat set it has to be noted though that
half way through the cycle I went up a pin. On the big exercises I
added about 10 or twelve kilos per set.
I really enjoyed the extra time in the gym and working in different
rep ranges.

The strange thing is have put on much muscle but I do feel my back has
grown [thickened] and has a bit more detail, but my arms and legs are
the same as before. I have had problems with injury so I haven't
trained my triceps throughout and when I have its been a low ROM. I
also  was only able to train my chest and shoulders for a few months
due to injury. But the leg and back work have been used constantly. I
did have a few weeks off training altogether.


I was taking in more protein than I normally would do.
I haven't been able to get my hands on protein for a few weeks so I
have tended to eat more nuts etc. This has led to a weight increase
but it seems to be fat.

Thinking about it my back had the most constant volume and seems to
have improved which is interesting.

I am still  getting a rep here and there more on the workout but feel
its starting to run its course as I will improve on one set then the
next one I will lose a few reps.

I would have thought strength increases without resulting growth can
happen to a point and its individual but I must have had enough
calories if I put on some fat. And surely strength increases require a
good amount of calories to be  consumed?

Any thoughts welcome
Jeremy

On Apr 3, 2007, at 10:04 AM, Ken ONeill wrote:

> Hank:
>
> With the Republican party in charge there's abundant evidence that it
> serves the interests of the big pharmaceutical companies, not the
> citizens
> it is elected to represent.  I'll quickly add that at least one
> Democratic,
> Senator Ted Kennedy, is an immense disgrace in his championing of the
> special interests of pharmaceutical giants with a pending Senate
> bill aimed
> at wiping out compounding  pharmacies to protect the drug industry
> giants.
>
> The FDA is staffed and led by persons who play musical chairs with
> jobs
> there, then in the pharmaceutical and food industry - including
> academics
> who thrive on grant money from the giant corporations. The American
> people
> have been sold down river for corporate monopolistic interests -
> it's a
> disgrace.


Ken,

The people who are involved with strength training and fitness have a
mind set. We want to improve, we want to be a better person, and I
think what frustrates me the most with our political system is,
unused potential. Our country is like the athlete who has great
athletic potential, but not the will to develop that potential.

  From a fitness stand point, our national government is negligent.
How to make muscle should not be a mystery. If we can fly to the
moon, at this point in our cultural development every man, women, and
child should know the value of strength training, the safest and the
most effective way to develop strength. Unfortunately our government
is either incompetent, e.g. Katrina debacle, the Iraqi War, and the
current state of our economy, or lead by corporate interests only.
Nutrition, fitness, and health in general should have top billing,
and our FDA, although not totally ineffective, is very close to being
that.

We live in interesting times and opportunities. The fact that we can
converse with tools like email is so exciting. At our disposal is
knowledge and information. As a culture and a country we need to
somehow get our politicians to listen the best and brightest ideas
that we have. As citizens we need to find ways to get our politicians
to listen and act in our long range best interest, not only their re-
election interests or money interests.

Uh!! I just fell off my soap box.

Hank Kearns

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hank is right on here -

Not only that but who inherits the health care costs when these
people start experiencing problems ?? You and I


--- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2007, at 5:15 PM, clint michels wrote:
>
> > not to disagree with you view, but you might want to look at it
> > like this. why would the fact that someone uses drugs effect
how
> > you view the person?? if a person takes drugs the choice is
theirs.
> > if a person( well refer to as person-x in this post) is willing
to
> > lose 20 years off their life in the persuit of a ultimate goal
i
> > dont think a critic should complain.
> If someone wants to be able to strut up and down the beach with
huge
> muscles, and he has to take steroids to do so, I can be a
libertarian
> to some extent. Let him so that. However, I would not hold that
> person in very high esteem, compared to a person who works out
> intelligently and with intensity, but does not get the same
results
> as the steroid user.
>
> > if a 3rd party thinks its cheating that person-x is willing to
take
> > any path possible to achieve a dream, would person-x lead a
more
> > fullfilled life in the event that they dont achieve that goal w-
out?
> In my opinion, you are not living a fulfilling life when you have
to
> be something you are not.
>
> > it could also be viewed unfair that a person is born with
superior
> > genetics.
> Of course, this is the next stage of performance enhancing. I
think
> we will see, maybe in my lifetime, (about to turn 60) genetic
> enhancements. There is a genetic biologist at Princeton
University
> that I hear speak many years ago. He feels that some day we will
have
> to types of humans. The enhanced and the natural, and the
genetically
> enhanced would be the outstanding musicians, athletes, etc.
Steroids
> will look like candy if that scenario becomes reality.
>
>
> > a person needs to make do with what they were born with, and
> > supplementing drugs might just give them the advantage they
need.
> > if in the pursuit of that goal they defeat a person that wasnt
> > willing to take drugs...it could be considered the defeated
person
> > wasnt willing to do everything possible to obtain their dream.
>
> But that is just it. The other person should not have to endanger
> their health by playing with their endocrine system.
>
> If our medical community could find a way to safely take
steroids,
> then I might look at it in a different way, but that is not the
case
> now.
>
>
>
>
>
> > i dont take
> > any illegal substances but i do think the government shouldnt
be
> > able to tell someone what they can and cant take. they can
> > certainly " educate the public" but the fact that cigarettes
and
> > alcohol are legal shows how ignorant the government is. they
only
> > legalize things they can make money off of. ( steroids cant
even
> > touch how deadly alcohol and tobacco are)
> To be honest, I could agree with reducing the legal penalty for
some
> drugs like marijuana. I never smoked it and do not encourage
anyone
> to use it, but from a practical point of view, our war on drugs
is
> not working. We spend billions of dollars on drugs like marijuana
> with no results. According to what I have read, marijuana is a
bigger
> crop than any thing else that we grow in America. I was a high
school
> teacher for 35 years. I would ask the students, "if I gave you
one
> period in school to find dope, how many of you could do it?" You
can
> image how many hands went up, and I was working at a "good"
school.
> So, yes I could be a libertarian in some cases. If you want to
smoke
> dope that is your decision. Smoking dope does not give you an
unfair
> advantage over someone else.
>
>
>
> >
> > and the best part is that we get to see better entertainment
when
> > we watch sporting event and such spectacles.
> >
>
> I guest that is where we differ too. I was an athlete when I was
> younger, and I coached football and track for 30 years. I know
the
> effort and determination that is needed to be a successful athlete
on
> any level. For me sport is not just entertainment. It is a human
> drama of struggle, effort, strategy, determination, team work,
and
> what is best about being alive and healthy. When you put steroids
> into the picture, it loses it luster, at least in my eyes.
>
> Hank Kearns
>

In 1989 both houses of Congress passed legislation rendering steroids controlled
(that is, prescribed by physicians) substances. For a while athletes found they
could still get steroids over the counter from veternarian supply stores - as
was also the case with creatine since it's used for horses (creatine powder goes
for eight dollars a pound that way).

The more recent 2005 legislation banning prohormones and any steroids not
covered by previous legislation is yet another disaster of the George W. Bush
administration aimed at protecting us against ourselves, armed with weapons of
mass misinformation.

Now the Ted Kennedy-John McCain bill before the Senate threatens to make
compounding pharmacies and the bio-identical, natural forms of estrogen,
progesterone, and testosterone so vital for healthy hormone replacement therapy
to be wiped out. Why? Wyeth, a huge pharmaceutical company, wants a clear
monopoly on its synthetic hrt for women - the stuff shown in scientific studies
to promote cancer in women. Be sure to write to  your Congressmen and Senators
to block passage of a bill aimed at screwing the American  public in favor of
mega pharmaceutical corporations.


----- Original Message -----
From: sacredsystem
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 4/3/2007 7:17:45 AM
Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book



On Mar 21, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Seth Breidbart wrote:

> What about people who use legal drugs?
>
> Who decides which drugs are illegal? What qualifications do they
> have?
>
> What about people who use drugs that are legal where they use them,
> but might be illegal elsewhere (e.g. caffeine)?
>
> I know: let's eliminate everybody who ever drank coffee or tea or ate
> chocolate.
>
> Seth
>
Eliminate coffee? Now you are hitting below the belt!

As I am currently enjoying my espresso................

James




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Again I do not think you can make the judgment that someone is out for
your money because of one lie. What a bizarre world it would be if we
  were to write people off  based on one lie they may have told. Would
we trust anyone at all? Look at the whole picture why would they feel
the need to lie where would the pressure come from to do that follow
the money. If they were still competing and they said yeah I take
steroids openly in interviews, what would their sponsors say. Would
they have a career left?



I think the danger here is in seeing this as black and white. If
people want to be considered the best as well as make some good money
they are naturally going to want to compete against the best and most
successful, which sadly means competing with steroid users. I don't
see how this can make them "weaklings" it is not there fault that the
Iron game works like this.
I  suspect that if drugs were taken out of the equation the results of
contests would still look very similar.

I don't see anyone advocating drugs here and yes look at those
families. I think you will find there are plenty of families who do
nothing but condemn drugs whose sons and daughters end up addicts.
Tell a Teenager not to do something and you increase curiosity in that
something. Education on the subject rather than moralistic
condemnation I feel is more likely to have a positive effect.

I'm all for natural physiques even the difference between the 80s guys
and present bodybuilders is striking, it makes the 80s guys look drug
free in comparison.

I think the cause needs to be looked at on a broad scale the more
money goes up the more people and businesses get involved, I would
suggest they are part of the cause for the rise in drug use there
competition seeps through all the levels of the Iron game.
Again follow the money

Jeremy



>
> If we're going to have competition, it seems only rational to set a
standard regarding drugs. There are a number of drug-free
organizations which do mandatory testing of all competitors to ensure
drug-free. That's the way bodybuilding was up until the early sixties;
since then it's been a massive culture of lies and deceipt. Anyone -
Mike Mentzer included - who touts a system of training and/or
nutritional while lying about their steroid use is an intentional liar
and deceiver, out to take your money and good faith. The refreshing
element to Ellington Darden's books is they are full of drug-free
natural HIT athletes with impressive physiques that got that way with
what Arthur Jones called "honest work". Until athletes learn to train
hard enough with intensity, all talk of drugs is for weaklings
unwilling or unable or both to do hard work. Iron Man Magazine carries
many articles every month promoting drug-free natural training for
those strong enough of character to Work Out!!!
>
> I'm afraid that advocating drugs even without using them is what we
see in families of alcholics and drug-abusers: enablers. I've seen the
Irongame go downhill since 1962 and am just plain sick and tired of it
and the freaks it produces. Go back and take a look at some amazing
physiques from the forties and fifties to see what drug-free means. Or
read Ell Darden's books. He wrote the New HIT through being inspired
by Art Jones' disgust with the perverted state of bodybuilding to show
the natural way.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>

your exactly right, just becuase a person has a masters degree doesnt make that
person more intelligent then another. i can list off many pages of people who
dropped out of high school who did more for society then you can imagine. maybe
you can remember someone by the name of  albert einstein to start off with.

hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...> wrote:          For you to right off all those
who have gone through addiction
recovery is quite a astonishing generalization!
The next bit is funny I don't see how you can judge intelligence on
inpersonal or distant subjective perception it remains a opinion. Zane
has more degrees does he? [hahahaha] Perhaps a body building tops
trumps should be made.
Jeremy

>
> Some argue that genius speaks despite drug usage, as a weak defense
of the
> Brothers Mentzer. Anyone familiar with addiction recovery knows
damned well
> such arguments are "drunken talk" - no sign of sobreity whatsoever.
Frank
> Zane, who's far more intelligent than Mentzer ever was, and holds two
> Master's degrees (Christine has three) is clean and sober: recent
photos of
> him at 64 are incredible.
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...>
> > To: <Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: 3/21/2007 8:32:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> >
> > I agree with the xhawks97. Yes, there are people who took steroids,
> > growth hormones, EPO, and did not suffer health issues, but the use
> > of illegal performance enhancing drugs is, in my opinion, ruining
> > sport and even fitness. I was born near York, PA where steroids were
> > first used in USA. It devastated the York Barbell lifting team.
> > Personally I do not even bother watching the Olympics. Maybe the
ping-
> > pong champ is not using something, but even there if I would had to
> > bet, would bet they are taking something that is illegal.
> >
> > People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
> > frauds. Look at pictures of those individuals before using and
after.
> > There is a huge difference. It was not their training approach, or
> > hard work or discipline it was artificial.
> >
> > If you could keep the drugs to the "professionals" you might have an
> > argument, but it does not stop there. The temptation to look like
> > Arnold is huge for those young men and even women who want to be the
> > best.
> >
> > Hank Kearns
> >
> >
> > On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, xhawks97 wrote:
> >
> > > I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> > > performance/records -
> > >
> > > don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> > > will have to the home run record.
> > >
> > > I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> > > associated with drug use
> > >
> > > also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> > > he would have hit
> > >
> > > I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> > > you don't
> > >
> > > --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> > > certainly
> > > > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > > > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> > > to
> > > > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> > > an
> > > > early death.
> > > > > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> > > death.
> > > > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > > > >
> > > > > i still enjoy his readings.
> > > > >
> > > > > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > > > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> > > result
> > > > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> > > sadly
> > > > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > > > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > > > >
> > > > > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > > > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> > > bigger
> > > > one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > > > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> > > norm)
> > > > >
> > > > > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken ONeill <kayoneill@> wrote:
> > > > > Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> > > Dr.
> > > > Dave.
> > > > >
> > > > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > > > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> > > marijuana
> > > > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> > > be
> > > > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> > > muscles
> > > > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > > > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > > > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> > > for
> > > > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> > > Texas
> > > > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> > > suicides of
> > > > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > > > quantities for short periods of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > > > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> > > That's
> > > > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been
around
> > > > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > > > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> > > And
> > > > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> > > only
> > > > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> > > inviolabilty -
> > > > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves
around
> > > > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> > > becoming
> > > > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> > > to
> > > > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > > > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> > > depricating
> > > > everyone else.
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in.
For one
> > > > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> > > and
> > > > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> > > of
> > > > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> > > however,
> > > > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> > > for
> > > > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > > > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> > > away,
> > > > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you
imagine the
> > > > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > > > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > > > bodybuilders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> > > leading
> > > > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> > > with
> > > > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> > > all
> > > > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> > > likely
> > > > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> > > emotional
> > > > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > > > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use
of all
> > > > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > > > they rest in peace.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> > > but in
> > > > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> > > and
> > > > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> > > gym
> > > > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> > > about
> > > > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> > > steroids
> > > > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > > > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> > > would
> > > > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would
snap
> > > > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> > > surgically
> > > > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> > > day
> > > > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> > > his
> > > > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> > > a
> > > > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> > > have
> > > > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > > > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> > > could
> > > > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> > > intelligence
> > > > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > > > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > > > their friendship easily.
> > > > >
> > > > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> > > for 4
> > > > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> > > went
> > > > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > > > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace
engineer to
> > > > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > > > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> > > He
> > > > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> > > had a
> > > > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> > > of
> > > > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> > > secretive
> > > > and paranoid.
> > > > >
> > > > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> > > regardless
> > > > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > > > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> > > It's
> > > > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> > > find
> > > > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > > > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> > > ideas
> > > > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> > > share
> > > > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the
point
> > > > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come
from
> > > > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> > > that
> > > > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > > > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> > > with.
> > > > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > > > unconditionally.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Dave
> > > > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives,
that we
> > > > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> > > every
> > > > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> > > are
> > > > only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > To get this in a Digest form, please go to
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
> > and change your subscription settings.
> >
> > The HIT Digest is a feature of Cyberpump! http://www.cyberpump.com
> >
> > HIT Digest email addresses:
> > Post message: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > Subscribe: Hitdigest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > Unsubscribe: Hitdigest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > List owner: Hitdigest-owner@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Shortcut URL to this page:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
> >
> > Please review the Rules of the Digest at
> > http://www.cyberpump.com/hitdigest/rules.html
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Got a question, check out the HIT FAQ first.
> > http://www.cyberpump.com/hitfaq/
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

its not so much the placement of the hands as it is the direction of the elbows.
when i do them my elbows decend downwards as opposed to them going laterally
when working normal presses. i keep my hands a little closer inward do to the
different mechanics involved. about shoulder length should do.even though my
elbows go down, i still touch the bar to my mid chest chest.

hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...> wrote:          Hi guys just thought Id ask
what sort of width people use for the
close grip bench press I had not done this exercise properly before I
had always done head crushers. I started with a 12 inch hand spacing
but after checking with Stuart Mc Roberts advise I went to 16inch.
The 16 feels like it isn't hitting the Triceps so well.
I realize the 16 is kinda on your elbows so I will no doubt stick to
it but thought Id ask anyways

Jeremy






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
  Get your own web address.
  Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Underwater weight training is very popular among senior citizens and those with
arthritis - if we're talking about the same thing. They use foam "weights" - no
resistance on anything where bouyancy brings the weight upward, tremendous down
stroke resistance.


----- Original Message -----
From: Sarn Ursell
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 4/3/2007 7:16:19 AM
Subject: [HIT Digest] Underwater weight and fin training


Dear HITTERS,

Just a quick concept here....

I wanted to know you're opinions on UNDERWATER WEIGHT TRAINING, and pool
workouts.

I once saw this in Fred Hatfeilds book: POWER-A SCIENTIFIC APPROACH.

Would lifting weights under water, perhaps with a breating aparatus make the
concentric portion of the lift both turbulent and heavier, and the eccentric
portion both turbulent and lighter?

I DO actually know about strength, conditioning and rehabilitation workouts,
which have find, polysterine barbells, and boyant balls, and tow parachutes, for
training swimmers, but I would like to do a pool/underwater workout, oneday.

You could do TWO workouts per week, one on dry land, in the gym, and one in the
pool....

:o)

Underwater powercleans, underwater squats, underwater bench presses, underwater
chinups, underwater shoulder presses, underwater deadlifts, etc...etc...etc.....

Any idea as to rep and set protocols for this sort of training, and would it be
a good method of gentle resistance for the elderly, young. sick and injured?

---Sarn.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hank:

With the Republican party in charge there's abundant evidence that it
serves the interests of the big pharmaceutical companies, not the citizens
it is elected to represent.  I'll quickly add that at least one Democratic,
Senator Ted Kennedy, is an immense disgrace in his championing of the
special interests of pharmaceutical giants with a pending Senate bill aimed
at wiping out compounding  pharmacies to protect the drug industry giants.

The FDA is staffed and led by persons who play musical chairs with jobs
there, then in the pharmaceutical and food industry - including academics
who thrive on grant money from the giant corporations. The American people
have been sold down river for corporate monopolistic interests - it's a
disgrace.


> [Original Message]
> From: Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...>
> To: <Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 4/3/2007 7:14:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
>
>
> On Mar 21, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Seth Breidbart wrote:
>
> > Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...> top-posted:
> >
> > > People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
> > > frauds.
> >
> > What about people who use legal drugs?
> >
> > Who decides which drugs are illegal? What qualifications do they
> > have?
> >
> > What about people who use drugs that are legal where they use them,
> > but might be illegal elsewhere (e.g. caffeine)?
> >
> > I know: let's eliminate everybody who ever drank coffee or tea or ate
> > chocolate.
> >
> > Seth
>
> My main point was, as a culture we cannot put those people who use
> illegal performance drugs on a pedestal, and we should try to keep
> those people from competing with other people who should not have to
> nor want to use performance enhancing drugs. Sadly, this seem more
> and more difficult. People are able to beat the system, and that will
> probably always be the case. A case in point is Lance Armstrong. I
> hope he is a clean athlete, but if I had to make a wager, I would
> say, he probably took some illegal performance enhancing drug, just
> like the American who was disqualified from the Tour de France. We
> are in a sad situation, in my point of view.
>
> If someone is so insecure with themselves that they need to take
> steroids and other such drugs to look a certain way, let them be my
> guest. I just have a problem when they have an unfair advantage (and
> it is huge) when competing against clean athletes.
>
> Our FDA has a lot of room to improve, but I would like to think that
> even with the Republican Party in charge, we can intelligently
> differentiate between a drug that is relatively safe, like caffeine
> and anabolic steroids which can be devastating.
>
> Perhaps in the brave new world there will be ways to take steroids in
> a safe manner. Perhaps in a later time we will give them to our
> newborn safely. I don’t know, but right now that is not the case. I
> hope we never get to that point, but who knows.
>
> Hank Kearns
>
>
>
>
>
> To get this in a Digest form, please go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
> and change your subscription settings.
>
> The HIT Digest is a feature of Cyberpump! http://www.cyberpump.com
>
> HIT Digest email addresses:
>   Post message: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    Hitdigest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  Hitdigest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   Hitdigest-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
>
> Please review the Rules of the Digest at
> http://www.cyberpump.com/hitdigest/rules.html
> ------------------------------------
>
> Got a question, check out the HIT FAQ first.
> http://www.cyberpump.com/hitfaq/
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

For you to right off all those who have gone through addiction
recovery is quite a astonishing generalization!
The next bit is funny I don't see how you can judge intelligence on
inpersonal or distant subjective perception it remains a opinion. Zane
has more degrees does he? [hahahaha] Perhaps a body building tops
trumps should be made.
  Jeremy

>
> Some argue that genius speaks despite drug usage, as a weak defense
of the
> Brothers Mentzer. Anyone familiar with addiction recovery knows
damned well
> such arguments are "drunken talk" - no sign of sobreity whatsoever.
  Frank
> Zane, who's far more intelligent than Mentzer ever was, and holds two
> Master's degrees (Christine has three) is clean and sober: recent
photos of
> him at 64 are incredible.
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...>
> > To: <Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: 3/21/2007 8:32:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> >
> > I agree with the xhawks97. Yes, there are people who took steroids,
> > growth hormones, EPO, and did not suffer health issues, but the use
> > of illegal performance enhancing drugs is, in my opinion, ruining
> > sport and even fitness. I was born near York, PA where steroids were
> > first used in USA. It devastated the York Barbell lifting team.
> > Personally I do not even bother watching the Olympics. Maybe the
ping-
> > pong champ is not using something, but even there if I would had to
> > bet, would bet they are taking something that is illegal.
> >
> > People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
> > frauds. Look at pictures of those individuals before using and
after.
> > There is a huge difference. It was not their training approach, or
> > hard work or discipline it was artificial.
> >
> > If you could keep the drugs to the "professionals" you might have an
> > argument, but it does not stop there. The temptation to look like
> > Arnold is huge for those young men and even women who want to be the
> > best.
> >
> > Hank Kearns
> >
> >
> > On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, xhawks97 wrote:
> >
> > > I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> > > performance/records -
> > >
> > > don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> > > will have to the home run record.
> > >
> > > I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> > > associated with drug use
> > >
> > > also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> > > he would have hit
> > >
> > > I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> > > you don't
> > >
> > > --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> > > certainly
> > > > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > > > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> > > to
> > > > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> > > an
> > > > early death.
> > > > > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> > > death.
> > > > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > > > >
> > > > > i still enjoy his readings.
> > > > >
> > > > > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > > > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> > > result
> > > > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> > > sadly
> > > > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > > > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > > > >
> > > > > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > > > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> > > bigger
> > > > one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > > > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> > > norm)
> > > > >
> > > > > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken ONeill <kayoneill@> wrote:
> > > > > Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> > > Dr.
> > > > Dave.
> > > > >
> > > > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > > > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> > > marijuana
> > > > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> > > be
> > > > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> > > muscles
> > > > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > > > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > > > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> > > for
> > > > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> > > Texas
> > > > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> > > suicides of
> > > > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > > > quantities for short periods of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > > > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> > > That's
> > > > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been
around
> > > > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > > > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> > > And
> > > > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> > > only
> > > > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> > > inviolabilty -
> > > > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves
around
> > > > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> > > becoming
> > > > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> > > to
> > > > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > > > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> > > depricating
> > > > everyone else.
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in.
For one
> > > > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> > > and
> > > > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> > > of
> > > > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> > > however,
> > > > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> > > for
> > > > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > > > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> > > away,
> > > > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you
imagine the
> > > > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > > > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > > > bodybuilders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> > > leading
> > > > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> > > with
> > > > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> > > all
> > > > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> > > likely
> > > > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> > > emotional
> > > > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > > > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use
of all
> > > > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > > > they rest in peace.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> > > but in
> > > > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> > > and
> > > > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> > > gym
> > > > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> > > about
> > > > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> > > steroids
> > > > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > > > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> > > would
> > > > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would
snap
> > > > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> > > surgically
> > > > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> > > day
> > > > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> > > his
> > > > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> > > a
> > > > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> > > have
> > > > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > > > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> > > could
> > > > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> > > intelligence
> > > > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > > > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > > > their friendship easily.
> > > > >
> > > > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> > > for 4
> > > > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> > > went
> > > > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > > > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace
engineer to
> > > > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > > > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> > > He
> > > > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> > > had a
> > > > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> > > of
> > > > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> > > secretive
> > > > and paranoid.
> > > > >
> > > > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> > > regardless
> > > > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > > > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> > > It's
> > > > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> > > find
> > > > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > > > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> > > ideas
> > > > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> > > share
> > > > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the
point
> > > > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come
from
> > > > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> > > that
> > > > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > > > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> > > with.
> > > > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > > > unconditionally.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Dave
> > > > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives,
that we
> > > > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> > > every
> > > > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> > > are
> > > > only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > To get this in a Digest form, please go to
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
> > and change your subscription settings.
> >
> > The HIT Digest is a feature of Cyberpump! http://www.cyberpump.com
> >
> > HIT Digest email addresses:
> >   Post message: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> >   Subscribe:    Hitdigest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >   Unsubscribe:  Hitdigest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >   List owner:   Hitdigest-owner@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Shortcut URL to this page:
> >   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
> >
> > Please review the Rules of the Digest at
> > http://www.cyberpump.com/hitdigest/rules.html
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Got a question, check out the HIT FAQ first.
> > http://www.cyberpump.com/hitfaq/
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

On Mar 21, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Seth Breidbart wrote:

> What about people who use legal drugs?
>
> Who decides which drugs are illegal?  What qualifications do they
> have?
>
> What about people who use drugs that are legal where they use them,
> but might be illegal elsewhere (e.g. caffeine)?
>
> I know: let's eliminate everybody who ever drank coffee or tea or ate
> chocolate.
>
> Seth
>
Eliminate coffee? Now you are hitting below the belt!

As I am currently enjoying my espresso................

      James

Hi guys just thought Id ask what sort of width people use for the
close grip bench press I had not done this exercise properly before I
had always done head crushers. I started with a 12 inch hand spacing
but after checking with Stuart Mc Roberts advise I went to 16inch.
The 16 feels like it isn't hitting the Triceps so well.
I realize the 16 is kinda on your elbows so I will no doubt stick to
it but thought Id ask anyways


Jeremy

Dear HITTERS,

Just a quick concept here....

I wanted to know you're opinions on UNDERWATER WEIGHT TRAINING, and pool
workouts.

I once saw this in Fred Hatfeilds book: POWER-A SCIENTIFIC APPROACH.

Would lifting weights under water, perhaps with a breating aparatus make the
concentric portion of the lift both turbulent and heavier, and the eccentric
portion both turbulent and lighter?

I DO actually know about strength, conditioning and rehabilitation workouts,
which have find, polysterine barbells, and boyant balls, and tow parachutes, for
training swimmers, but I would like to do a pool/underwater workout, oneday.

You could do TWO workouts per week, one on dry land, in the gym, and one in the
pool....

:o)

Underwater powercleans, underwater squats, underwater bench presses, underwater
chinups, underwater shoulder presses, underwater deadlifts, etc...etc...etc.....

Any idea as to rep and set protocols for this sort of training, and would it be
a good method of gentle resistance for the elderly, young. sick and injured?

---Sarn.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mar 21, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Seth Breidbart wrote:

> Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...> top-posted:
>
> > People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
> > frauds.
>
> What about people who use legal drugs?
>
> Who decides which drugs are illegal? What qualifications do they
> have?
>
> What about people who use drugs that are legal where they use them,
> but might be illegal elsewhere (e.g. caffeine)?
>
> I know: let's eliminate everybody who ever drank coffee or tea or ate
> chocolate.
>
> Seth

My main point was, as a culture we cannot put those people who use
illegal performance drugs on a pedestal, and we should try to keep
those people from competing with other people who should not have to
nor want to use performance enhancing drugs. Sadly, this seem more
and more difficult. People are able to beat the system, and that will
probably always be the case. A case in point is Lance Armstrong. I
hope he is a clean athlete, but if I had to make a wager, I would
say, he probably took some illegal performance enhancing drug, just
like the American who was disqualified from the Tour de France. We
are in a sad situation, in my point of view.

If someone is so insecure with themselves that they need to take
steroids and other such drugs to look a certain way, let them be my
guest. I just have a problem when they have an unfair advantage (and
it is huge) when competing against clean athletes.

Our FDA has a lot of room to improve, but I would like to think that
even with the Republican Party in charge, we can intelligently
differentiate between a drug that is relatively safe, like caffeine
and anabolic steroids which can be devastating.

Perhaps in the brave new world there will be ways to take steroids in
a safe manner. Perhaps in a later time we will give them to our
newborn safely. I don’t know, but right now that is not the case. I
hope we never get to that point, but who knows.

Hank Kearns

It's ironic that when Congress reclassified steroids as controlled substances in
1989 that the American Medical Association was against doing that!

The rationale for controlling drugs is not one of the "government telling you
what to do"; instead, it's agencies of the government controlling substances
that can bring harm to those using them. Steroids are NOT harmless. Left
ventricle problems leading to death is a well known effect of using them. Many
of the harmful effects journalists delight in reporting simply aren't true.
What's more, any reasonable male should have a baseline testosterone test
performed by age 35 in order to have a standard to measure against as the years
pass and andropause sets in. In these United States menopause receives
tremendous attention while andropause is tacitly ignored. Male health depends on
healthy levels of test and hormone replacement therapy using either synthetic
steroids or bio-identical naturals is an appropriate protocol - for health.

If we're going to have competition, it seems only rational to set a standard
regarding drugs. There are a number of drug-free organizations which do
mandatory testing of all competitors to ensure drug-free. That's the way
bodybuilding was up until the early sixties; since then it's been a massive
culture of lies and deceipt. Anyone - Mike Mentzer included - who touts a system
of training and/or nutritional while lying about their steroid use is an
intentional liar and deceiver, out to take your money and good faith. The
refreshing element to Ellington Darden's books is they are full of drug-free
natural HIT athletes with impressive physiques that got that way with what
Arthur Jones called "honest work". Until athletes learn to train hard enough
with intensity, all talk of drugs is for weaklings unwilling or unable or both
to do hard work. Iron Man Magazine carries many articles every month promoting
drug-free natural training for those strong enough of character to Work Out!!!

I'm afraid that advocating drugs even without using them is what we see in
families of alcholics and drug-abusers: enablers. I've seen the Irongame go
downhill since 1962 and am just plain sick and tired of it and the freaks it
produces. Go back and take a look at some amazing physiques from the forties and
fifties to see what drug-free means. Or read Ell Darden's books. He wrote the
New HIT through being inspired by Art Jones' disgust with the perverted state of
bodybuilding to show the natural way.


----- Original Message -----
From: clint michels
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 3/21/2007 10:21:20 PM
Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book


not to disagree with you view, but you might want to look at it like this. why
would the fact that someone uses drugs effect how you view the person?? if a
person takes drugs the choice is theirs. if a person( well refer to as person-x
in this post) is willing to lose 20 years off their life in the persuit of a
ultimate goal i dont think a critic should complain. if a 3rd party thinks its
cheating that person-x is willing to take any path possible to achieve a dream,
would person-x lead a more fullfilled life in the event that they dont achieve
that goal w-out? it could also be viewed unfair that a person is born with
superior genetics. a person needs to make do with what they were born with, and
supplementing drugs might just give them the advantage they need. if in the
pursuit of that goal they defeat a person that wasnt willing to take drugs...it
could be considered the defeated person wasnt willing to do everything possible
to obtain their dream. i dont take
any illegal substances but i do think the government shouldnt be able to tell
someone what they can and cant take. they can certainly " educate the public"
but the fact that cigarettes and alcohol are legal shows how ignorant the
government is. they only legalize things they can make money off of. ( steroids
cant even touch how deadly alcohol and tobacco are)

and the best part is that we get to see better entertainment when we watch
sporting event and such spectacles.

-peace.

Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...> wrote:
I agree with the xhawks97. Yes, there are people who took steroids,
growth hormones, EPO, and did not suffer health issues, but the use
of illegal performance enhancing drugs is, in my opinion, ruining
sport and even fitness. I was born near York, PA where steroids were
first used in USA. It devastated the York Barbell lifting team.
Personally I do not even bother watching the Olympics. Maybe the ping-
pong champ is not using something, but even there if I would had to
bet, would bet they are taking something that is illegal.

People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
frauds. Look at pictures of those individuals before using and after.
There is a huge difference. It was not their training approach, or
hard work or discipline it was artificial.

If you could keep the drugs to the “professionals” you might have an
argument, but it does not stop there. The temptation to look like
Arnold is huge for those young men and even women who want to be the
best.

Hank Kearns

On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, xhawks97 wrote:

> I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> performance/records -
>
> don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> will have to the home run record.
>
> I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> associated with drug use
>
> also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> he would have hit
>
> I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> you don't
>
> --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" wrote:
> >
> > If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> certainly
> > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> to
> > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> >
> > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> an
> > early death.
> > > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> death.
> > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > >
> > > i still enjoy his readings.
> > >
> > > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > >
> > > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> result
> > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> sadly
> > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > >
> > > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> bigger
> > one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> norm)
> > >
> > > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > >
> > > Ken ONeill wrote:
> > > Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> Dr.
> > Dave.
> > >
> > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> marijuana
> > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> be
> > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> muscles
> > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> for
> > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> Texas
> > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> suicides of
> > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > quantities for short periods of time.
> > >
> > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> That's
> > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been around
> > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> And
> > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> only
> > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> inviolabilty -
> > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves around
> > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> becoming
> > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> to
> > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> depricating
> > everyone else.
> > >
> > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in. For one
> > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> and
> > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> of
> > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> however,
> > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> for
> > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> away,
> > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you imagine the
> > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > bodybuilders.
> > >
> > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> leading
> > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > >
> > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> with
> > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> all
> > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> likely
> > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> emotional
> > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use of all
> > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > they rest in peace.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > >
> > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> but in
> > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> and
> > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> gym
> > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> about
> > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> steroids
> > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> would
> > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
> > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> surgically
> > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> day
> > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> his
> > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> a
> > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > >
> > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> have
> > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> could
> > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> intelligence
> > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > their friendship easily.
> > >
> > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> for 4
> > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> went
> > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace engineer to
> > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> He
> > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> had a
> > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> of
> > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> secretive
> > and paranoid.
> > >
> > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> regardless
> > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> It's
> > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> find
> > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> ideas
> > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> share
> > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the point
> > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from
> > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> that
> > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> with.
> > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > unconditionally.
> > >
> > > Dr. Dave
> > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
> > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> every
> > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> are
> > only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To get this in a Digest form, please go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
and change your subscription settings.

The HIT Digest is a feature of Cyberpump! http://www.cyberpump.com

HIT Digest email addresses:
Post message: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: Hitdigest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: Hitdigest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: Hitdigest-owner@yahoogroups.com

Shortcut URL to this page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest

Please review the Rules of the Digest at
http://www.cyberpump.com/hitdigest/rules.html
------------------------------------

Got a question, check out the HIT FAQ first.
http://www.cyberpump.com/hitfaq/
------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows.
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Mar 21, 2007, at 5:15 PM, clint michels wrote:

> not to disagree with you view, but you might want to look at it
> like this. why would the fact that someone uses drugs effect how
> you view the person?? if a person takes drugs the choice is theirs.
> if a person( well refer to as person-x in this post) is willing to
> lose 20 years off their life in the persuit of a ultimate goal i
> dont think a critic should complain.
If someone wants to be able to strut up and down the beach with huge
muscles, and he has to take steroids to do so, I can be a libertarian
to some extent. Let him so that. However, I would not hold that
person in very high esteem, compared to a person who works out
intelligently and with intensity, but does not get the same results
as the steroid user.

> if a 3rd party thinks its cheating that person-x is willing to take
> any path possible to achieve a dream, would person-x lead a more
> fullfilled life in the event that they dont achieve that goal w-out?
In my opinion, you are not living a fulfilling life when you have to
be something you are not.

> it could also be viewed unfair that a person is born with superior
> genetics.
Of course, this is the next stage of performance enhancing. I think
we will see, maybe in my lifetime, (about to turn 60) genetic
enhancements. There is a genetic biologist at Princeton University
that I hear speak many years ago. He feels that some day we will have
to types of humans. The enhanced and the natural, and the genetically
enhanced would be the outstanding musicians, athletes, etc. Steroids
will look like candy if that scenario becomes reality.


> a person needs to make do with what they were born with, and
> supplementing drugs might just give them the advantage they need.
> if in the pursuit of that goal they defeat a person that wasnt
> willing to take drugs...it could be considered the defeated person
> wasnt willing to do everything possible to obtain their dream.

But that is just it. The other person should not have to endanger
their health by playing with their endocrine system.

If our medical community could find a way to safely take steroids,
then I might look at it in a different way, but that is not the case
now.





> i dont take
> any illegal substances but i do think the government shouldnt be
> able to tell someone what they can and cant take. they can
> certainly " educate the public" but the fact that cigarettes and
> alcohol are legal shows how ignorant the government is. they only
> legalize things they can make money off of. ( steroids cant even
> touch how deadly alcohol and tobacco are)
To be honest, I could agree with reducing the legal penalty for some
drugs like marijuana. I never smoked it and do not encourage anyone
to use it, but from a practical point of view, our war on drugs is
not working. We spend billions of dollars on drugs like marijuana
with no results. According to what I have read, marijuana is a bigger
crop than any thing else that we grow in America. I was a high school
teacher for 35 years. I would ask the students, “if I gave you one
period in school to find dope, how many of you could do it?” You can
image how many hands went up, and I was working at a “good” school.
So, yes I could be a libertarian in some cases. If you want to smoke
dope that is your decision. Smoking dope does not give you an unfair
advantage over someone else.



>
> and the best part is that we get to see better entertainment when
> we watch sporting event and such spectacles.
>

I guest that is where we differ too. I was an athlete when I was
younger, and I coached football and track for 30 years. I know the
effort and determination that is needed to be a successful athlete on
any level. For me sport is not just entertainment. It is a human
drama of struggle, effort, strategy, determination, team work, and
what is best about being alive and healthy. When you put steroids
into the picture, it loses it luster, at least in my eyes.

Hank Kearns

not to disagree with you view, but you might want to look at it  like this. why
would the fact that someone uses drugs effect how you view the person?? if a
person takes drugs the choice is theirs. if a person( well refer to as person-x
in this post) is willing to lose 20 years off their life in the persuit of a
ultimate goal i dont think a critic should complain.  if a 3rd party thinks its
cheating that  person-x is willing to take any path possible to achieve a dream,
would person-x lead a more fullfilled life  in the event that they dont achieve
that goal w-out?  it could also be viewed unfair that a person is born with
superior genetics. a person needs to make do with what they were born with, and 
supplementing drugs might just give them the advantage they need. if in the
pursuit of that goal they defeat a person that wasnt willing to take drugs...it
could be considered the defeated  person wasnt willing to  do everything
possible to  obtain their dream. i dont take
  any illegal substances but i do think the government shouldnt be able to tell
someone what they can and cant take. they can certainly " educate the public"
but the fact that cigarettes and alcohol are legal shows how ignorant the
government is. they only legalize things they can make money off of. ( steroids
cant even touch how deadly alcohol and tobacco are)

   and the best part is that we get to see better entertainment when we watch
sporting event and such spectacles.

   -peace.

Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...> wrote:
   I agree with the xhawks97. Yes, there are people who took steroids,
growth hormones, EPO, and did not suffer health issues, but the use
of illegal performance enhancing drugs is, in my opinion, ruining
sport and even fitness. I was born near York, PA where steroids were
first used in USA. It devastated the York Barbell lifting team.
Personally I do not even bother watching the Olympics. Maybe the ping-
pong champ is not using something, but even there if I would had to
bet, would bet they are taking something that is illegal.

People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
frauds. Look at pictures of those individuals before using and after.
There is a huge difference. It was not their training approach, or
hard work or discipline it was artificial.

If you could keep the drugs to the “professionals” you might have an
argument, but it does not stop there. The temptation to look like
Arnold is huge for those young men and even women who want to be the
best.

Hank Kearns


On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, xhawks97 wrote:

> I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> performance/records -
>
> don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> will have to the home run record.
>
> I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> associated with drug use
>
> also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> he would have hit
>
> I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> you don't
>
> --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" wrote:
> >
> > If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> certainly
> > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> to
> > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> >
> > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> an
> > early death.
> > > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> death.
> > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > >
> > > i still enjoy his readings.
> > >
> > > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > >
> > > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> result
> > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> sadly
> > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > >
> > > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> bigger
> > one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> norm)
> > >
> > > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > >
> > > Ken ONeill wrote:
> > > Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> Dr.
> > Dave.
> > >
> > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> marijuana
> > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> be
> > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> muscles
> > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> for
> > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> Texas
> > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> suicides of
> > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > quantities for short periods of time.
> > >
> > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> That's
> > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been around
> > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> And
> > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> only
> > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> inviolabilty -
> > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves around
> > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> becoming
> > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> to
> > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> depricating
> > everyone else.
> > >
> > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in. For one
> > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> and
> > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> of
> > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> however,
> > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> for
> > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> away,
> > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you imagine the
> > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > bodybuilders.
> > >
> > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> leading
> > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > >
> > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> with
> > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> all
> > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> likely
> > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> emotional
> > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use of all
> > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > they rest in peace.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > >
> > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> but in
> > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> and
> > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> gym
> > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> about
> > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> steroids
> > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> would
> > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
> > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> surgically
> > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> day
> > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> his
> > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> a
> > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > >
> > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> have
> > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> could
> > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> intelligence
> > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > their friendship easily.
> > >
> > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> for 4
> > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> went
> > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace engineer to
> > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> He
> > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> had a
> > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> of
> > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> secretive
> > and paranoid.
> > >
> > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> regardless
> > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> It's
> > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> find
> > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> ideas
> > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> share
> > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the point
> > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from
> > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> that
> > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> with.
> > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > unconditionally.
> > >
> > > Dr. Dave
> > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
> > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> every
> > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> are
> > only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



To get this in a Digest form, please go to
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
and change your subscription settings.

The HIT Digest is a feature of Cyberpump! http://www.cyberpump.com

HIT Digest email addresses:
Post message: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Subscribe: Hitdigest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Unsubscribe: Hitdigest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
List owner: Hitdigest-owner@yahoogroups.com

Shortcut URL to this page:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest

Please review the Rules of the Digest at
http://www.cyberpump.com/hitdigest/rules.html
------------------------------------

Got a question, check out the HIT FAQ first.
http://www.cyberpump.com/hitfaq/
------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
It's here! Your new message!
Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...> top-posted:

> People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
> frauds.

What about people who use legal drugs?

Who decides which drugs are illegal?  What qualifications do they
have?

What about people who use drugs that are legal where they use them,
but might be illegal elsewhere (e.g. caffeine)?

I know: let's eliminate everybody who ever drank coffee or tea or ate
chocolate.

Seth

I couldn't agree more with what  you say: my articles in Iron Man Magazine,
including an upcoming review article on Dr Darden's books, stress drug-free
natural bodybuilding.

As for the York Barbell Club fiasco, the book Muscle Town USA documents the
abuses - and those abuses did not end with steroids. Given the culture of
the late 60s, marijuana and lsd became part of the drug abuse, reportedly
even sexual abuse of early teen girls by one of the "athletes". Most
bizarre were the 35 mm photo sequence of the late Bob Bernarski at the 1969
Pan American Games as he did a 300 lb plus snatch, the sequence showing him
miss the lift in a manner resulting in frame by frame disclosure of one of
his elbows dislocating and protruding - not breaking the skin. His career
ended then dispite comeback attempts. How did it happen? The book says he
took lsd when in that competition! How outrageously stupid. Trouble is
steroids make users think they're immortal and cannnot be injured.

I've suggested more than once the big mr olympia title should be changed to
Mr Pharmacopia and the event be funded by drug companies.

Steroids are bad, but mixed with recreational drugs the results are
incredibly bad.

Some argue that genius speaks despite drug usage, as a weak defense of the
Brothers Mentzer. Anyone familiar with addiction recovery knows damned well
such arguments are "drunken talk" - no sign of sobreity whatsoever.  Frank
Zane, who's far more intelligent than Mentzer ever was, and holds two
Master's degrees (Christine has three) is clean and sober: recent photos of
him at 64 are incredible.



> [Original Message]
> From: Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...>
> To: <Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: 3/21/2007 8:32:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
>
> I agree with the xhawks97. Yes, there are people who took steroids,
> growth hormones, EPO, and did not suffer health issues, but the use
> of illegal performance enhancing drugs is, in my opinion, ruining
> sport and even fitness. I was born near York, PA where steroids were
> first used in USA. It devastated the York Barbell lifting team.
> Personally I do not even bother watching the Olympics. Maybe the ping-
> pong champ is not using something, but even there if I would had to
> bet, would bet they are taking something that is illegal.
>
> People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
> frauds. Look at pictures of those individuals before using and after.
> There is a huge difference. It was not their training approach, or
> hard work or discipline it was artificial.
>
> If you could keep the drugs to the “professionals” you might have an
> argument, but it does not stop there. The temptation to look like
> Arnold is huge for those young men and even women who want to be the
> best.
>
> Hank Kearns
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, xhawks97 wrote:
>
> > I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> > performance/records -
> >
> > don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> > will have to the home run record.
> >
> > I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> > associated with drug use
> >
> > also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> > he would have hit
> >
> > I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> > you don't
> >
> > --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> > certainly
> > > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> > to
> > > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> > >
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> > an
> > > early death.
> > > > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> > death.
> > > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > > >
> > > > i still enjoy his readings.
> > > >
> > > > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > > >
> > > > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> > result
> > > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> > sadly
> > > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > > >
> > > > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> > bigger
> > > one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> > norm)
> > > >
> > > > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > > >
> > > > Ken ONeill <kayoneill@> wrote:
> > > > Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> > Dr.
> > > Dave.
> > > >
> > > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> > marijuana
> > > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> > be
> > > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> > muscles
> > > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> > for
> > > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> > Texas
> > > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> > suicides of
> > > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > > quantities for short periods of time.
> > > >
> > > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> > That's
> > > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been around
> > > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> > And
> > > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> > only
> > > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> > inviolabilty -
> > > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves around
> > > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> > becoming
> > > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> > to
> > > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> > depricating
> > > everyone else.
> > > >
> > > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in. For one
> > > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> > and
> > > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> > of
> > > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> > however,
> > > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> > for
> > > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> > away,
> > > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you imagine the
> > > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > > bodybuilders.
> > > >
> > > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> > leading
> > > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > > >
> > > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> > with
> > > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> > all
> > > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> > likely
> > > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> > emotional
> > > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use of all
> > > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > > they rest in peace.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > > >
> > > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> > but in
> > > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> > and
> > > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> > gym
> > > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> > about
> > > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> > steroids
> > > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> > would
> > > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
> > > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> > surgically
> > > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> > day
> > > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> > his
> > > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> > a
> > > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > > >
> > > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> > have
> > > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> > could
> > > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> > intelligence
> > > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > > their friendship easily.
> > > >
> > > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> > for 4
> > > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> > went
> > > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace engineer to
> > > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> > He
> > > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> > had a
> > > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> > of
> > > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> > secretive
> > > and paranoid.
> > > >
> > > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> > regardless
> > > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> > It's
> > > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> > find
> > > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> > ideas
> > > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> > share
> > > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the point
> > > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from
> > > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> > that
> > > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> > with.
> > > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > > unconditionally.
> > > >
> > > > Dr. Dave
> > > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
> > > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> > every
> > > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> > are
> > > only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> To get this in a Digest form, please go to
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
> and change your subscription settings.
>
> The HIT Digest is a feature of Cyberpump! http://www.cyberpump.com
>
> HIT Digest email addresses:
>   Post message: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
>   Subscribe:    Hitdigest-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   Unsubscribe:  Hitdigest-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>   List owner:   Hitdigest-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hitdigest
>
> Please review the Rules of the Digest at
> http://www.cyberpump.com/hitdigest/rules.html
> ------------------------------------
>
> Got a question, check out the HIT FAQ first.
> http://www.cyberpump.com/hitfaq/
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

I agree with the xhawks97. Yes, there are people who took steroids,
growth hormones, EPO, and did not suffer health issues, but the use
of illegal performance enhancing drugs is, in my opinion, ruining
sport and even fitness. I was born near York, PA where steroids were
first used in USA. It devastated the York Barbell lifting team.
Personally I do not even bother watching the Olympics. Maybe the ping-
pong champ is not using something, but even there if I would had to
bet, would bet they are taking something that is illegal.

People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
frauds. Look at pictures of those individuals before using and after.
There is a huge difference. It was not their training approach, or
hard work or discipline it was artificial.

If you could keep the drugs to the “professionals” you might have an
argument, but it does not stop there. The temptation to look like
Arnold is huge for those young men and even women who want to be the
best.

Hank Kearns


On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, xhawks97 wrote:

> I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> performance/records -
>
> don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> will have to the home run record.
>
> I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> associated with drug use
>
> also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> he would have hit
>
> I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> you don't
>
> --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@...> wrote:
> >
> > If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> certainly
> > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> to
> > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> >
> > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> an
> > early death.
> > > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> death.
> > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > >
> > > i still enjoy his readings.
> > >
> > > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > >
> > > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> result
> > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> sadly
> > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > >
> > > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> bigger
> > one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> norm)
> > >
> > > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > >
> > > Ken ONeill <kayoneill@> wrote:
> > > Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> Dr.
> > Dave.
> > >
> > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> marijuana
> > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> be
> > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> muscles
> > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> for
> > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> Texas
> > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> suicides of
> > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > quantities for short periods of time.
> > >
> > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> That's
> > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been around
> > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> And
> > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> only
> > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> inviolabilty -
> > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves around
> > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> becoming
> > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> to
> > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> depricating
> > everyone else.
> > >
> > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in. For one
> > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> and
> > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> of
> > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> however,
> > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> for
> > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> away,
> > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you imagine the
> > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > bodybuilders.
> > >
> > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> leading
> > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > >
> > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> with
> > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> all
> > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> likely
> > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> emotional
> > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use of all
> > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > they rest in peace.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > >
> > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> but in
> > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> and
> > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> gym
> > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> about
> > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> steroids
> > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> would
> > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
> > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> surgically
> > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> day
> > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> his
> > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> a
> > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > >
> > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> have
> > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> could
> > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> intelligence
> > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > their friendship easily.
> > >
> > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> for 4
> > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> went
> > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace engineer to
> > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> He
> > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> had a
> > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> of
> > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> secretive
> > and paranoid.
> > >
> > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> regardless
> > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> It's
> > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> find
> > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> ideas
> > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> share
> > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the point
> > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from
> > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> that
> > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> with.
> > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > unconditionally.
> > >
> > > Dr. Dave
> > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
> > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> every
> > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> are
> > only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Clint I wasn't responding to your post I should have made that clear.
  I was just thinking out loud about the factors involved in this
thread such as people like Freud using drugs I'm not saying anyone has
disregarded peoples work because of drugs. I just felt I should
comment about the complexities involved.

  Cheers
Jeremy
>
> you misunderstand me. i dont take anything away from anyone who uses
drugs. a win is a win in my book. i was just discussing the
circumstances of mentzer.
>
> hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...> wrote:          If they used drugs then so
what. Lots of people do, it is certainly
> not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things to
> drugs you run into very murky waters.
>
> Jeremy
>
> > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was an
> early death.
> > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early death.
> i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> >
> > i still enjoy his readings.
> >
> > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> >
> > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would result
> in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but sadly
> too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> >
> > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a bigger
> one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the norm)
> >
> > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> >
> > Ken ONeill <kayoneill@> wrote:
> > Very interesting commentary and personal observations, Dr.
> Dave.
> >
> > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and marijuana
> as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to be
> mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make muscles
> grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken for
> long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in Texas
> there have been one or two post-steroid depression related suicides of
> high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> quantities for short periods of time.
> >
> > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into. That's
> just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been around
> serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965. And
> that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not only
> become big and strong but develop a personal sense of inviolabilty -
> nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves around
> them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world becoming
> increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts to
> meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and depricating
> everyone else.
> >
> > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in. For one
> thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy and
> profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size of
> dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most, however,
> that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months for
> the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes away,
> leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you imagine the
> coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> bodybuilders.
> >
> > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well, leading
> to early fatal heart attacks.
> >
> > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled with
> cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them all
> up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one likely
> equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their emotional
> discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use of all
> those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> they rest in peace.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: David Lewandowski
> > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> >
> > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers but in
> society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's and
> Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his gym
> in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for about
> 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do steroids
> and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He would
> try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
> because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be surgically
> removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a day
> plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of his
> eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only a
> belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> >
> > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would have
> to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they could
> not converse about normal things or with those of average intelligence
> especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> their friendship easily.
> >
> > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him for 4
> months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He went
> from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> eventually working for the same company as an aerospace engineer to
> being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend. He
> was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and had a
> girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most of
> the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super secretive
> and paranoid.
> >
> > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being regardless
> of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT). It's
> easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can find
> fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful ideas
> along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we share
> beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the point
> that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from
> their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought that
> Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree with.
> Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> unconditionally.
> >
> > Dr. Dave
> > Man-Up-Now.com
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
> are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every
> day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are
> only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every
day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are
only so many tommorrows.  -----MICHEAL LANDON
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't get soaked.  Take a quick peek at the forecast
>  with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hi I was referring to the theory behind peoples work and whether drug
use effects the efficacy of there work. Not actual athletic
performances but thinkers academics Freud etc etc.

Cheers Jeremy


>
> I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> performance/records -
>
> don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> will have to the home run record.
>
> I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> associated with drug use
>
> also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> he would have hit
>
> I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> you don't
>
>
>
> --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@> wrote:
> >
> >  If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> certainly
> > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> to
> > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> >
> > Jeremy
> >
> >
> >
> > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> an
> > early death.
> > >   but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> death.
> > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > >
> > >   i still enjoy his readings.
> > >
> > >   i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > >
> > >   that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> result
> > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> sadly
> > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > >
> > >   as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> bigger
> > one.  if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> norm)
> > >
> > >   so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > >
> > > Ken ONeill <kayoneill@> wrote:
> > >           Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> Dr.
> > Dave.
> > >
> > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> marijuana
> > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> be
> > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> muscles
> > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> for
> > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> Texas
> > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> suicides of
> > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > quantities for short periods of time.
> > >
> > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> That's
> > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been around
> > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> And
> > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> only
> > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> inviolabilty -
> > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves around
> > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> becoming
> > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> to
> > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> depricating
> > everyone else.
> > >
> > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in. For one
> > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> and
> > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> of
> > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> however,
> > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> for
> > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> away,
> > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you imagine the
> > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > bodybuilders.
> > >
> > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> leading
> > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > >
> > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> with
> > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> all
> > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> likely
> > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> emotional
> > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use of all
> > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > they rest in peace.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > >
> > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> but in
> > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> and
> > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> gym
> > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> about
> > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> steroids
> > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> would
> > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
> > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> surgically
> > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> day
> > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> his
> > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> a
> > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > >
> > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> have
> > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> could
> > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> intelligence
> > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > their friendship easily.
> > >
> > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> for 4
> > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> went
> > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace engineer to
> > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> He
> > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> had a
> > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> of
> > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> secretive
> > and paranoid.
> > >
> > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> regardless
> > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> It's
> > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> find
> > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> ideas
> > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> share
> > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the point
> > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from
> > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> that
> > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> with.
> > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > unconditionally.
> > >
> > > Dr. Dave
> > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we
> > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> every
> > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> are
> > only so many tommorrows.  -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
>