Gents:

I am new to the list ...
so I must ask an
incredibly sophomoric
question:

WHAT exactly is HIT?

Does it exclusively involve
the timing of the exercise,
ROM or a limited contraction
from the moment the weight
is picked up / put down?

I'm just now reading the
mountain of information
(Jones, Mentzer, Darden)
thats out there and beginning
to understand but can only
ascertain that its the amount
of time from beginning-to-end
of the exericse.

I am wrong (obviously) but
would like a basic description.

< sorry to intrude with
such a basic q >

Much appreciated,
Mick
--- Sarn Ursell <polyverse2002@...> wrote:

> Hello HITTERS!
>
> I will list here some ideas that I have had for
> modifying my training routein, and I want to get you
> all to add to them...
>
> Here:
>
> Squats 1*20 (Endurance-strength),
> Squats 20*1 (Strength-endurance),
> Squats 10*10 (GVT--->German volume training),
> Squats: 1*10, 1*5, 1*30 (Prymid system),
> Squats: 5*5 (Regular strength system),
> Squats: 1*50 (Endurance),
> Squats: 3*1 (Singles),
> Squats Using Heavy eccentrics and a spotter, say (?)
> 3 sets done VERY slowly,
> Leg Extnesion then...Squats (Pre-exhaust),
> Squats with a pause of 10 seconds at the bottom,
> Squats holding a 200%1RM weight for a start THEN a
> work set with a lighter weight,
>
> Also....
>
> 20 (Yes, that's right TWENTY) sets of concentration
> curls super setted with 20 sets of close grip bench
> presses (may take 3 hours),
>
> And, further... 3 times per week chinups (which I am
> doing now....), and three times per week grip
> training which I will be doing when I get a
> practical amount of time in the future to train
> later on  in 2007...2008.
>
> Can anybody add to this list?
>
>
> ----Sarn.
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>

Clint,

Have you gotten stronger/bigger after switching from two to three weeks
between training sessions?  I remember you had been doing fine for some
time with two weeks between sessions but then you hit a plateau and
seemed to get burned out.  So, going up to three weeks helped?

Miguel

________________________________

Clint wrote:
not to argue, but ill give my view point. ive never met menzer first had
other then his readings and videos. as far as his training go(like hd
the mike mentzer way) it makes perfect sense to me. that being said i
wont argue with anyone else who has a training style that works for
them. i do think however, mike mentzers last book before he died, was
very sound. people shrug it off (even some hit) becuase even they cant
believe that working out once every 2 weeks with 2-3 exerci. is
believable. i work out once every 3 weeks and have nothing short of
magnificant results mike made the statment once that if people didnt
work out all the time they wouldnt know wht to do. its so true. and even
some hit folks who work out once every week cant get in to the extended
rest time.



Confidentiality Notice:  This e-mail and any attachments are intended only for
the use of those to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is
confidential and prohibited from further disclosure under law. If you have
received this e-mail in error, its review, use, retention and/or distribution is
strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message and any
attachments.[v1.0]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/8010pr.html

Hi.........I'm looking to finally start my home gym, and was looking
for a mini power rack. Anybody have one or used a mini power rack? Is
it a waste of money? Money and space is a concern. Any help would be
appreciated.

     James aka Sacredsystem

wow i enjoyed that info. thats crazy.

David Lewandowski <drdave@...> wrote:          Ken is so right about
heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers but in society as a whole. My friend
from high school was Ray Mentzer's and Benny Poda's training partner. I worked
for Ray for a month at his gym in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I
trained there for about 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started
to do steroids and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He would try to
inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap because of all the
scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be surgically removed. He would do 5cc at a
time twice a week and 100 Anavar a day plus other many other orals! Benny took
so many that the whites of his eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel
squat wearing only a belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the
time.

Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would have to say after
being around Ray and watching him have several mental breakdowns, both he and
Mike were socially retarded in that they could not converse about normal things
or with those of average intelligence especially halfwits. With that being said
both were very loyal and quite kind to those that were in their inner circle.
Neither gave their friendship easily.

My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him for 4 months
during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He went from having a
well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and eventually working for the
same company as an aerospace engineer to being a box boy for a Rite Aid
somewhere in Northern California. Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely
abusive to his girlfriend. He was sent to Florida quite often to work on the
Space Shuttle and had a girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then
lived most of the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
secretive and paranoid.

All the above rambling does have a point. The point being regardless of their
personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I have benefited
tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT). It's easy to cast stones at
those whose ideas we disagree with. We can find fault even with that which
doesn't matter much like their personalities and personal life and throw away
their very useful ideas along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those
that we share beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the
point that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from their
mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought that Marion Jones
could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of drugs and lie about it. We
learn very little from those we agree with. Learning to love your enemy is
actually learning to love yourself unconditionally.

Dr. Dave
Man-Up-Now.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello HITTERS!

I will list here some ideas that I have had for modifying my training routein,
and I want to get you all to add to them...

Here:

Squats 1*20 (Endurance-strength),
Squats 20*1 (Strength-endurance),
Squats 10*10 (GVT--->German volume training),
Squats: 1*10, 1*5, 1*30 (Prymid system),
Squats: 5*5 (Regular strength system),
Squats: 1*50 (Endurance),
Squats: 3*1 (Singles),
Squats Using Heavy eccentrics and a spotter, say (?) 3 sets done VERY slowly,
Leg Extnesion then...Squats (Pre-exhaust),
Squats with a pause of 10 seconds at the bottom,
Squats holding a 200%1RM weight for a start THEN a work set with a lighter
weight,

Also....

20 (Yes, that's right TWENTY) sets of concentration curls super setted with 20
sets of close grip bench presses (may take 3 hours),

And, further... 3 times per week chinups (which I am doing now....), and three
times per week grip training which I will be doing when I get a practical amount
of time in the future to train later on  in 2007...2008.

Can anybody add to this list?


----Sarn.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

See my last post and link on this subject.  It seems to work great.  The only
drawback I can see is that I may not have them hold in the same position each
time making measurement difficult, but that hasn't happened.  I've actually
narrowed down some wild people's TUL.

Miguel Angel Perez <metalhead2_mx@...> wrote:          Chris,

I've never tried static holds but I feel curious about
them sometimes. Have your clients gotten stronger, or
have their muscles grown, or both?

Regards,

Miguel

--- chrislutz25 <chrislutz25@...> escribió:

> Hi guys,
>
> Has anybody been using static holds with the same
> success I have been
> seeing? Especially in training my clients. Because
> they don't move, I
> get them into perfect loaded position and then have
> them hold until
> failure and it forces them down on a negative.
> Stops them from still
> wanting to move something and thrashing about in
> order to do it and
> then I don't progress them because of poor form.
>
> Chris
>
>

__________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/





       Chris Lutz
   The SuperSlow Zone
   703-421-1200
   www.superslowzone.com
   Minutes a week. In Shape for life.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think a couple of the bigger guys are, but I haven't been doing it long enough
to warrant measuring yet.  However, as soon as I started, everyone started
jumping up 5-10lbs. on each exercise even though they were using their normal
training loads.  I did find this study that used isometrics and validated that
the strength increase was "completely accounted for" by an increase in
cross-sectional muscle area.   
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Retrieve&list_uids=1\
435173&dopt=Citation


hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...> wrote:          Hi Chris are your clients
growing from the static holds what sort of
progress have they been making?
Cheers Jeremy
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
> seeing? Especially in training my clients. Because they don't move, I
> get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
> failure and it forces them down on a negative. Stops them from still
> wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
> then I don't progress them because of poor form.
>
> Chris
>






       Chris Lutz
   The SuperSlow Zone
   703-421-1200
   www.superslowzone.com
   Minutes a week. In Shape for life.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

*CHOKES ON A CHICKEN WING, WASHES IT DOWN WITH A SWIG
OF CORONA*

Something!

Miguel

--- Sarn Ursell <polyverse2002@...> wrote:

> Say something, Miguel!
>
> ---Sarn.


__________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/

Hi:

In my case, working out so infrequently ensures atrophy. I've tried it. I do
like the slacking and laziness in induces, but I seem to be in the normal 48-96
hour recovery window.

First, the 80 Olympia was fixed - either by Weider or by Arnold's exceptional
political and persuasive abilities. Any one of the top five should have win. Of
course, I'm biased toward Zane but remain open to any of the other guys as well.
From then on I lost my interest in the Olympia. With regard to what the O has
become, I've said this in print: sponsorship should go to drug companies and the
title be changed to Mr Pharmacopia. It's about huge amounts of drugs, not
bodybuilding, at this time.

What's the title of the last of Mentzer's books. I admit to not having read it,
and will do just that to be ethically fair.




----- Original Message -----
From: clint michels
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/22/2007 1:28:22 PM
Subject: RE: [HIT Digest] Darden Book


not to argue, but ill give my view point. ive never met menzer first had other
then his readings and videos. as far as his training go(like hd the mike mentzer
way) it makes perfect sense to me. that being said i wont argue with anyone else
who has a training style that works for them. i do think however, mike mentzers
last book before he died, was very sound. people shrug it off (even some hit)
becuase even they cant believe that working out once every 2 weeks with 2-3
exerci. is believable. i work out once every 3 weeks and have nothing short of
magnificant results mike made the statment once that if people didnt work out
all the time they wouldnt know wht to do. its so true. and even some hit folks
who work out once every week cant get in to the extended rest time.

and as far as the 80 olympia, we all know the contest is totally fixed. also
mike did look better than most if not all people on the stage. and although i
agree tom platz and frank zane, also chris dick. looked just as impressive, ive
studied the tape and only platz might have beaten mentzer. but mike dieted a
whole year for the contest.





Ken ONeill <kayoneill@...> wrote:
This all may be a generational thing. Those who were around in the seventies and
eighties, then later, and were either in the irongame or really into it on the
West Coast, knew a Mentzer different from the one being protrayed today as the
spokesperson for HIT if not the higest pinnacle of HIT's development.

Arthur Jones began publishing in Iron Man Magazine in 1970. Everything was
called "Nautilus" at that time. In the mid seventies, Ellington Darden renamed
the actual training principles High Intensity Training. That was a good idea
since doing so separated the training principles from the newly invented
Nautilus equipment.

Mentzer was a bright but poorly educated person who loved to pontificate, acting
like a fountain of wisdom but taken as a crackpot know-it-all with a big chip on
his shoulder by sane, sober people. In those days, steroids were far from the
only drug people took - it was the era of lsd, marijuana, and as the seventies
wore on in LA cocaine and meth increasingly became the drugs of popularity
(remember the disco era?). Then came heroin, the heroin and cocaine speedballs
that killed John Belushi. Bodybuilders were not immune from use of recreational
drugs in those days of great excesses. Dave Draper has told his story of how
alcohol and drug addication resulted in four episodes of congestive heart
failure within two or three hours, as well as how the Weider empire took
advantage of him for the best part of a decade.

Where does Mentzer fit in this? He was very briefly aligned with Nautilus as an
employee until beligerant insubordination got his brother Ray fired. Mentzer
seemed to think the 1980 Mr Olympia belonged to himself and nobody else and
whined and moaned about that until his death. As Darden so delicately and mildly
puts it, he never seemed to get over Arnold's victory - which he turned into his
loss, amplifying it with the paranoia associated with drug abuse and the
breakdown in sober, rational personality that follows. Remember, with paranoic
personality disorders, if they can get you to agree to some of their premises,
they'll walk you right into their reality and you'll mistake it as true. Mentzer
was good at sucking people into the notion he alone should have won in 80 but
was deprived of what was rightfully his. Sure am glad Olympic athletes are
matured, sane, and sober enough to understand that having competed, not won, is
the big honor life bestows.

Darden recounts an episode that borders of hilarious - hilarious were it not so
sad, and were it not symptomatic of Mentzer's beleagured latter years - years
filled with all sorts of problems and tragedies. The people making money off of
Mentzer rightly don't focus any attention to the tragic breakdown then death of
Mentzer - who'd buy the stuff? In similar manner, Sigmund Freud was a big user
of cocaine, something not even regarded as a problem in his era (he died in
1939). Yet if a psychiatrist were publishing his strange ideas today and it was
known he had a cocaine addiction, who would take him seriously.

It's important to separate hero worship based on Mentzer's martyr complex (a big
mistake) from an open mind to some of his training ideas. Heavy Duty is a
variation on the HIT theme, or at least some of it. Darden makes it pretty clear
that in HIT circles, Mentzer's later ideas were not taken seriously but instead
taken as a misundertanding of HIT. And Darden's HIT covers a big lot of options
and strategies, certainly big enough to embrace the latter Mentzer were there a
compelling case that his ideas were even mildly HIT.

I can't figure out the Mentzer obsession. Of course, other than Viator, he's the
only other major bodybuilder ever directly HIT. I'd count Dorian Yates in the
fold, but many dispell him as "volume". Other than Viator, the others were HIT
Plus Steroids, so I'm not especially interested in counting them - you know, is
it HIT or is it Roids?

Some count J-reps as HIT. Certainly Dante's DC is HIT. and both those are
producing some drug-free, natural champions. I'd like to find some sober, sane,
drug-free, natural people using HIT's short workouts, living full lives, with
something interesting to tell us.

best

----- Original Message -----
From: Chad McCubbins
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/7/2007 3:26:16 AM
Subject: RE: [HIT Digest] Darden Book

From the Darden book, I thought Mike was kidding when he was asking for
Arthur as God....

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=324004/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=
20006/stime=1170299777/nc1=4299909/nc2=3848640/nc3=3848542>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows.
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very interesting commentary and personal observations, Dr. Dave.

In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as performance
drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and marijuana as recreational
drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to be mind-altering substances
while assuming steroids simply make muscles grow, perhaps having adverse
side-effects, and that's it. Nothing could be further from the truth. Steroids,
especially in large quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs.
Taken for long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in Texas
there have been one or two post-steroid depression related suicides of high
school football players - and that's kids taking smaller quantities for short
periods of time.

I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair trigger extreme
anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into. That's just the tip of the
iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been around serious steroid users for most
of my life. Those drugs came on the scene in the very early 1960s, there use
becoming rampid by 1965. And that was only  dianobol, but taken in large daily
doses. Users not only become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
inviolabilty - nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves
around them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world becoming
increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts to meglomania
- they're the center of the universe, the smartest, strongest, wisest, etc.,
while naturally invalidating and depricating everyone else.

As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in. For one thing, large
scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy and profound andropause -
that is, their testicles shrink to the size of dried up raisins, and they
produce no testosterone. For most, however, that's a relatively temporary thing,
taking upwards of six months for the system to restart - and with great loss of
strength and size. Hence all that made them the center of  the universe now
wastes away, leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you imagine the
coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego strength to cope
with that - something woefully lacking in most bodybuilders.

Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well, leading to early
fatal heart attacks.

So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled with cocaine and
pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them all up the result is
greater than the sum - that is, one plus one likely equals five in effect. The
Mentzers may have brought their emotional discord to bodybuilding - given two
brothers with borderline personalities it seems like a family condition - but
the use of all those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad.
May they rest in peace.


----- Original Message -----
From: David Lewandowski
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book


Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers but in society as
a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's and Benny Poda's training
partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his gym in Redondo Beach almost 20
years ago though I trained there for about 2 years. My friend was a brilliant
guy until he started to do steroids and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine
before working out. Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke.
He would try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be surgically removed. He
would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a day plus other many other
orals! Benny took so many that the whites of his eyes were very yellow. Ray did
a 950lb parallel squat wearing only a belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He
weighed 305lbs at the time.

Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would have to say after
being around Ray and watching him have several mental breakdowns, both he and
Mike were socially retarded in that they could not converse about normal things
or with those of average intelligence especially halfwits. With that being said
both were very loyal and quite kind to those that were in their inner circle.
Neither gave their friendship easily.

My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him for 4 months
during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He went from having a
well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and eventually working for the
same company as an aerospace engineer to being a box boy for a Rite Aid
somewhere in Northern California. Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely
abusive to his girlfriend. He was sent to Florida quite often to work on the
Space Shuttle and had a girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then
lived most of the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
secretive and paranoid.

All the above rambling does have a point. The point being regardless of their
personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I have benefited
tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT). It's easy to cast stones at
those whose ideas we disagree with. We can find fault even with that which
doesn't matter much like their personalities and personal life and throw away
their very useful ideas along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those
that we share beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the
point that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from their
mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought that Marion Jones
could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of drugs and lie about it. We
learn very little from those we agree with. Learning to love your enemy is
actually learning to love yourself unconditionally.

Dr. Dave
Man-Up-Now.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey everybody,
   Thanks for the replies.  Yes, that's about how it goes.  I time the whole
thing and have them use normal dynamic training loads and lift a full positive
and come back about 1/2 way for pulling exercises and 1/3 for pushing exercises
and don't stop time until they bottom out the stack.  This also encourages them
to keep trying a positive effort while descending for time resulting in higher
level of effort.

David Lewandowski <drdave@...> wrote:
           Hey Chris,

I use static holds frequently when I do chins. Also, I have my clients do them.
Usually the negative that follows is 3+ times as long as the SC(static
contractions). Is that what you experienced Chris? I've seen great progress with
them and SC's are particularly useful when the client is unable to do a chin or
dip, etc. on their own.

Dr. Dave

>Hi guys,

>Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
>seeing? Especially in training my clients. Because they don't move, I
>get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
>failure and it forces them down on a negative. Stops them from still
>wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
>then I don't progress them because of poor form.

>Chris

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






       Chris Lutz
   The SuperSlow Zone
   703-421-1200
   www.superslowzone.com
   Minutes a week. In Shape for life.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Chris are your clients growing from the static holds what sort of
progress have they been making?
  Cheers Jeremy
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
> seeing?  Especially in training my clients.  Because they don't move, I
> get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
> failure and it forces them down on a negative.  Stops them from still
> wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
> then I don't progress them because of poor form.
>
> Chris
>

not to argue, but ill give my view point. ive never met menzer first had other
then his readings and videos. as far as his training go(like hd the mike mentzer
way) it makes perfect sense to me. that being said i wont argue with anyone else
who has a training style that works for them. i do think however, mike mentzers
last book before he died, was very sound. people shrug it off (even some hit)
becuase even they cant believe that working out once every 2 weeks with 2-3
exerci. is believable. i work out once every 3 weeks and have nothing short of
magnificant results mike made the statment once that if people didnt work out
all the time they wouldnt know wht to do. its so true. and even some hit folks
who work out once every week cant get in to the extended rest time.

   and as far as the 80 olympia, we all know  the contest is totally fixed. also
mike did look better than most if not all people on the stage. and although i
agree tom platz and frank zane, also chris dick. looked just as impressive, ive
studied the tape and only platz might have beaten mentzer. but mike dieted a
whole year for the contest.





Ken ONeill <kayoneill@...> wrote:
           This all may be a generational thing. Those who were around in the
seventies and eighties, then later, and were either in the irongame or really
into it on the West Coast, knew a Mentzer different from the one being protrayed
today as the spokesperson for HIT if not the higest pinnacle of HIT's
development.

Arthur Jones began publishing in Iron Man Magazine in 1970. Everything was
called "Nautilus" at that time. In the mid seventies, Ellington Darden renamed
the actual training principles High Intensity Training. That was a good idea
since doing so separated the training principles from the newly invented
Nautilus equipment.

Mentzer was a bright but poorly educated person who loved to pontificate, acting
like a fountain of wisdom but taken as a crackpot know-it-all with a big chip on
his shoulder by sane, sober people. In those days, steroids were far from the
only drug people took - it was the era of lsd, marijuana, and as the seventies
wore on in LA cocaine and meth increasingly became the drugs of popularity
(remember the disco era?). Then came heroin, the heroin and cocaine speedballs
that killed John Belushi. Bodybuilders were not immune from use of recreational
drugs in those days of great excesses. Dave Draper has told his story of how
alcohol and drug addication resulted in four episodes of congestive heart
failure within two or three hours, as well as how the Weider empire took
advantage of him for the best part of a decade.

Where does Mentzer fit in this? He was very briefly aligned with Nautilus as an
employee until beligerant insubordination got his brother Ray fired. Mentzer
seemed to think the 1980 Mr Olympia belonged to himself and nobody else and
whined and moaned about that until his death. As Darden so delicately and mildly
puts it, he never seemed to get over Arnold's victory - which he turned into his
loss, amplifying it with the paranoia associated with drug abuse and the
breakdown in sober, rational personality that follows. Remember, with paranoic
personality disorders, if they can get you to agree to some of their premises,
they'll walk you right into their reality and you'll mistake it as true. Mentzer
was good at sucking people into the notion he alone should have won in 80 but
was deprived of what was rightfully his. Sure am glad Olympic athletes are
matured, sane, and sober enough to understand that having competed, not won, is
the big honor life bestows.

Darden recounts an episode that borders of hilarious - hilarious were it not so
sad, and were it not symptomatic of Mentzer's beleagured latter years - years
filled with all sorts of problems and tragedies. The people making money off of
Mentzer rightly don't focus any attention to the tragic breakdown then death of
Mentzer - who'd buy the stuff? In similar manner, Sigmund Freud was a big user
of cocaine, something not even regarded as a problem in his era (he died in
1939). Yet if a psychiatrist were publishing his strange ideas today and it was
known he had a cocaine addiction, who would take him seriously.

It's important to separate hero worship based on Mentzer's martyr complex (a big
mistake) from an open mind to some of his training ideas. Heavy Duty is a
variation on the HIT theme, or at least some of it. Darden makes it pretty clear
that in HIT circles, Mentzer's later ideas were not taken seriously but instead
taken as a misundertanding of HIT. And Darden's HIT covers a big lot of options
and strategies, certainly big enough to embrace the latter Mentzer were there a
compelling case that his ideas were even mildly HIT.

I can't figure out the Mentzer obsession. Of course, other than Viator, he's the
only other major bodybuilder ever directly HIT. I'd count Dorian Yates in the
fold, but many dispell him as "volume". Other than Viator, the others were HIT
Plus Steroids, so I'm not especially interested in counting them - you know, is
it HIT or is it Roids?

Some count J-reps as HIT. Certainly Dante's DC is HIT. and both those are
producing some drug-free, natural champions. I'd like to find some sober, sane,
drug-free, natural people using HIT's short workouts, living full lives, with
something interesting to tell us.

best

----- Original Message -----
From: Chad McCubbins
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/7/2007 3:26:16 AM
Subject: RE: [HIT Digest] Darden Book

From the Darden book, I thought Mike was kidding when he was asking for
Arthur as God....

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=324004/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=
20006/stime=1170299777/nc1=4299909/nc2=3848640/nc3=3848542>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
  Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris,

I've never tried static holds but I feel curious about
them sometimes.  Have your clients gotten stronger, or
have their muscles grown, or both?

Regards,

Miguel

--- chrislutz25 <chrislutz25@...> escribió:

> Hi guys,
>
> Has anybody been using static holds with the same
> success I have been
> seeing?  Especially in training my clients.  Because
> they don't move, I
> get them into perfect loaded position and then have
> them hold until
> failure and it forces them down on a negative.
> Stops them from still
> wanting to move something and thrashing about in
> order to do it and
> then I don't progress them because of poor form.
>
> Chris
>
>


__________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/

i think static holds are a great exercise to improve strength. however i dont
use them too often due to the fact i train alone. so instead ill run my normal
all out set then toward the last reps, ill do static holds at 3 diff point to
fully fatigue the muscle. but keep in mindstatic hold work good as long as you
have warmed teh muscle properly. and i dont think you should use them solely in
the workout. maybe if you did a normal muli movement say bench, then had someone
help you with machine fly for static holds.

chrislutz25 <chrislutz25@...> wrote:          Hi guys,

Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
seeing? Especially in training my clients. Because they don't move, I
get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
failure and it forces them down on a negative. Stops them from still
wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
then I don't progress them because of poor form.

Chris






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
  Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

You know what I'm not sure what to make of this. I see speculation and
somewhat confusing references to drugs and roids. Are you saying not
to take people [or there work] with a history of drugs seriously?

Basically I see lines in the sand and nothing much else.

Jeremy




>
> This all may be a generational thing. Those who were around in the
seventies and eighties, then later, and were either in the irongame or
really into it on the West Coast, knew a Mentzer different from the
one being protrayed today as the spokesperson for HIT if not the
higest pinnacle of HIT's development.
>
> Arthur Jones began publishing in Iron Man Magazine in 1970.
Everything was called "Nautilus" at that time. In the mid seventies,
Ellington Darden renamed the actual training principles High Intensity
Training. That was a good idea since doing so separated the training
principles from the newly invented Nautilus equipment.
>
> Mentzer was a bright but poorly educated person who loved to
pontificate, acting like a fountain of wisdom but taken as a crackpot
know-it-all with a big chip on his shoulder by sane, sober people. In
those days, steroids were far from the only drug people took - it was
the era of  lsd, marijuana, and as the seventies wore on in LA cocaine
and meth increasingly became the drugs of popularity (remember the
disco era?). Then came heroin, the heroin and cocaine speedballs that
killed John Belushi. Bodybuilders were not immune from use of
recreational drugs in those days of great excesses. Dave Draper has
told his story of how alcohol and drug addication resulted in four
episodes of congestive heart failure within two or three hours, as
well as how the Weider empire took advantage of him for the best part
of a decade.
>
> Where does Mentzer fit in this? He was very briefly aligned with
Nautilus as an employee until beligerant insubordination got his
brother Ray fired. Mentzer seemed to think the 1980 Mr Olympia
belonged to himself and nobody else and whined and moaned about that
until his death. As Darden so delicately and mildly puts it, he never
seemed to get over Arnold's victory - which he turned into  his loss,
amplifying it with the paranoia associated with drug abuse and the
breakdown in sober, rational personality that follows. Remember, with
paranoic personality disorders, if they can get you to agree to some
of their premises, they'll walk you right into their reality and
you'll  mistake it as true. Mentzer was good at sucking people into
the notion he alone should have won in 80 but was deprived of what was
rightfully his. Sure am glad Olympic athletes are matured, sane, and
sober enough to understand that having competed, not won, is the big
honor life bestows.
>
> Darden recounts an episode that borders of hilarious - hilarious
were it not so sad, and were it not symptomatic of Mentzer's
beleagured latter years - years filled with all sorts of problems and
tragedies. The people making money off of Mentzer rightly don't focus
any attention to the tragic breakdown then death of Mentzer - who'd
buy the stuff? In similar manner, Sigmund Freud was a big user of
cocaine, something not even regarded as a problem in his era (he died
in 1939). Yet if a psychiatrist were publishing his strange ideas
today and it was known he had a cocaine addiction, who would take him
seriously.
>
> It's important to separate hero worship based on Mentzer's martyr
complex (a big mistake) from an open mind to some of his training
ideas. Heavy Duty is a variation on the HIT theme, or at least some of
it. Darden makes it pretty clear that in HIT circles, Mentzer's later
ideas were not taken seriously but instead taken as a misundertanding
of HIT. And Darden's HIT covers a big lot of options and strategies,
certainly big enough to embrace the latter Mentzer were there a
compelling case that his ideas were even mildly HIT.
>
> I can't figure out the Mentzer obsession. Of course, other than
Viator, he's the only other major bodybuilder ever directly HIT. I'd
count Dorian Yates in the fold, but many dispell him as "volume".
Other than Viator, the others were HIT Plus Steroids, so I'm not
especially interested in counting them - you know, is it HIT or is it
Roids?
>
> Some count J-reps as HIT. Certainly Dante's DC is HIT. and both
those are producing some drug-free, natural champions. I'd like to
find some sober, sane, drug-free, natural people using HIT's short
workouts, living full lives, with something interesting to tell us.
>
> best
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chad McCubbins
> To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 2/7/2007 3:26:16 AM
> Subject: RE: [HIT Digest] Darden Book
>
>
> From the Darden book, I thought Mike was kidding when he was asking for
> Arthur as God....
>
>
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=324004/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=
> 20006/stime=1170299777/nc1=4299909/nc2=3848640/nc3=3848542>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Hey Chris,

  I use static holds frequently when I do chins. Also, I have my clients do them.
Usually the negative that follows is 3+ times as long as the SC(static
contractions). Is that what you experienced Chris? I've seen great progress with
them and SC's are particularly useful when the client is unable to do a chin or
dip, etc. on their own.

Dr. Dave

>Hi guys,

>Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
>seeing? Especially in training my clients. Because they don't move, I
>get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
>failure and it forces them down on a negative. Stops them from still
>wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
>then I don't progress them because of poor form.

>Chris


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers but in society as
a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's and Benny Poda's training
partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his gym in Redondo Beach almost 20
years ago though I trained there for about 2 years. My friend was a brilliant
guy until he started to do steroids and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine
before working out. Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke.
He would try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would snap
because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be surgically removed. He
would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a day plus other many other
orals! Benny took so many that the whites of his eyes were very yellow. Ray did
a 950lb parallel squat wearing only a belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He
weighed 305lbs at the time.

Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would have to say after
being around Ray and watching him have several mental breakdowns, both he and
Mike were socially retarded in that they could not converse about normal things
or with those of average intelligence especially halfwits. With that being said
both were very loyal and quite kind to those that were in their inner circle.
Neither gave their friendship easily.

My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him for 4 months
during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He went from having a
well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and eventually working for the
same company as an aerospace engineer to being a box boy for a Rite Aid
somewhere in Northern California. Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely
abusive to his girlfriend. He was sent to Florida quite often to work on the
Space Shuttle and had a girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then
lived most of the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
secretive and paranoid.

All the above rambling does have a point. The point being regardless of their
personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I have benefited
tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT). It's easy to cast stones at
those whose ideas we disagree with. We can find fault even with that which
doesn't matter much like their personalities and personal life and throw away
their very useful ideas along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those
that we share beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the
point that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come from their
mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought that Marion Jones
could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of drugs and lie about it. We
learn very little from those we agree with. Learning to love your enemy is
actually learning to love yourself unconditionally.

Dr. Dave
Man-Up-Now.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thus Spake Ken ONeill <kayoneill@...>

>Mentzer seemed to think the 1980 Mr Olympia belonged to
>himself and nobody else and whined and moaned about that until his
>death. As Darden so delicately and mildly puts it, he never seemed to
>get over Arnold's victory - which he turned into  his loss, amplifying
>it with the paranoia associated with drug abuse and the breakdown in
>sober, rational personality that follows. Remember, with paranoic
>personality disorders, if they can get you to agree to some of their
>premises, they'll walk you right into their reality and you'll  mistake
>it as true. Mentzer was good at sucking people into the notion he alone
>should have won in 80 but was deprived of what was rightfully his. Sure
>am glad Olympic athletes are matured, sane, and sober enough to
>understand that having competed, not won, is the big honor life
bestows.
Mike always spoke and wrote that competing and the journey was more
important than the end result. However, the circumstances of 1980 would
make any individual feel the way he did. Mentzer should have won. If you
think the Olympia contests were ethically judged, you are surely in
denial. You seem to enjoy subscribing so many angles to Mentzer's
ailments. Even with his personal demons he should have won. Imagine what
he could have accomplished if he was balanced. Mentzer bashing seems to
be in vogue. No other individual in bodybuilding has been chewed and
spewed so many times. Why? other people have preached more radical ideas
than him? It amazes me that people have this sublime need to bash people
and their ideas. I don't agree with everything Mentzer said, but his
writings are far from being weak and shallow. Some of the greatest
individuals this world has ever seen were not "educated" according to
academic standards.
>
>Darden recounts an episode that borders of hilarious - hilarious were
it
>not so sad, and were it not symptomatic of Mentzer's beleagured latter
>years - years filled with all sorts of problems and tragedies. The
>people making money off of Mentzer rightly don't focus any attention to
>the tragic breakdown then death of Mentzer - who'd buy the stuff? In
>similar manner, Sigmund Freud was a big user of cocaine, something not
>even regarded as a problem in his era (he died in 1939). Yet if a
>psychiatrist were publishing his strange ideas today and it was known
he
>had a cocaine addiction, who would take him seriously.
Truth is truth. If a person found a cure for cancer, but was found out
to enjoy or even be addicted to snorting coke, do you think his
discovery is less true?
>It's important to separate hero worship based on Mentzer's martyr
>complex (a big mistake) from an open mind to some of his training
ideas.
>Heavy Duty is a variation on the HIT theme, or at least some of it.
>Darden makes it pretty clear that in HIT circles, Mentzer's later ideas
>were not taken seriously but instead taken as a misundertanding of HIT.
>And Darden's HIT covers a big lot of options and strategies, certainly
>big enough to embrace the latter Mentzer were there a compelling case
>that his ideas were even mildly HIT.
I go with what works. I used Darden's routines for almost a year with
marginal gains. I went to an abbreviated routine similar to Mentzer's
and my gains have been solid for quite some time. I care only for
results, anything else is pure gossip to me.
>
>I can't figure out the Mentzer obsession. Of course, other than Viator,
>he's the only other major bodybuilder ever directly HIT. I'd count
>Dorian Yates in the fold, but many dispell him as "volume". Other than
>Viator, the others were HIT Plus Steroids, so I'm not especially
>interested in counting them - you know, is it HIT or is it Roids?
Can you honestly say that Mentzer's writings are weak or boring?
Obsession might not be the word, but he is a more interesting read than
most in the field.

Chris says:  Hi guys,
Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
seeing?

Sarn says: hello people of the HIT digest, and hello to you, Chris.

Altho we haven't actually met before, I would like to get to know you, and many
of the others on the HIT digest, and I wanted to let you know that I haven't
been posting for a while.

Gary Marshall, New Zealand's top weightlifting coach tells me that he HAS
actually used static holds, for 6 or so seconds at 50 millimeter intervals via
the range of motion with people, and seen great results, and I have yet to try
this for a 6 weeks period.

I usually change ONLY ONE thing at a time, so that I have only one counfounding
variable in my training, and most recently, as per my recent post to the HIT
digest, I am experimenting with chinning up with an underhand grip three times
per week, instead of the usual one times per week.

There are different types of isometrics, static-and-slow, explosive isometrics,
isometrics with the potentiol to be concentrics, isometircs with the potentiol
to be eccentrics, which is what you are talking about, I believe!

Chris says:Especially in training my clients. Because they don't move, I
get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
failure and it forces them down on a negative. Stops them from still
wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
then I don't progress them because of poor form.

Sarn says: Yes, I know of: forced reps, 21's, one-and-a-halfs, burns, rest-pause
iosmetircs stops, eccentrics, forced negatives, cumulative reps, supersets,
giant sets, tri-sets, bi-sets, pre-exhaust, post-exhaust.

You may want to add to this list.

Say something, Miguel!

---Sarn.

Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The static hold method keeps on coming back, often with new names. Bill Starr
ran a five part series in Ironman Magazine in 2005 on the subject of power rack
training, a veritable masterpiece in my opinion.

Back in 1961, Bob Hoffman, president of the York Barbell Company and publisher
of Strength & Health, then the major irongame mag, published "The Most Important
Article I've Ever Written" or words to that effect. He revealed a new secret for
strength development and gaining muscular size: the new York power rack and
isometric rack. With the power rack, one could incorporate a combination of
limited range concentric contractions, static holds/isometrics, even negatives.
While York was selling their rack, he also published plans encouraging making
your own from pipe or wood. We watched as York Barbell Club athletes set world
record after world record, the US Olympic lifting team making a comeback after
some years of Soviet dominance of events, and a new generation of bigger,
stronger bodybuilders. Of course, everybody wanted one. And as leader of
AAU/Olympic team lifting, Hoffman was eager for new American victories - he
called himself The Father of Weightlifting, and generously funded our teams in
those days.

A lot of us used racks. On Mondays we'd do starting position moves, for example
pressing from the shoulders to the sticking point of the press, about a third to
half way up; bottom pins supported the bar, top pins stopped our movement. The
last rep was a static hold or isometric against the top pin, with a neg down to
the bottom. Wednesdays were mid range, in the sticking point. Fridays were
lockout or top third movements to another set of top pins. Except for moves like
quarter squats and overhead supports (taking the bar in a press lockout position
with legs at quarter squat, standing up and supporting it - we all were moving
over 500 in a few months).

Bill Starr's article goes into great detail regarding training methods and
strategies. Iron Man's originator, Peary Rader, published a little book on his
version, what he called Isometronics - Ironmind.com still sells it.

Some people think "intensity of effort" comes from Arthur Jones. In fact, power
rack training stressed it - doesn't work especially well without it. So, too,
did Vince Gironda, calling it "density." The sixties were rife with the
realization that minimizing volume and maximizing intensity was the golden key
to continuing success and progress - as long as  you could keep mustering
intensity. In a recent Iron Man, John Little quotes Mentzer as saying mind has
nothing to do with bodybuilding intensity. Mike was dead wrong on that one, and
must have had tremendous mental concentration although perhaps dulled by
recreational drugs to realize how gifted his concentration was. Bruce Lee knew
the tricks of concentration.

What happened with power rack training? It started fading in the mid-sixties.
Not because it didn't work. But because many of us became disillusioned with
Hoffman/York when the truth came out. Although lots of us made incredible
progress, we grew stale. There wasn't good coaching and there was no muscle
science then. We depended on self-proclaimed experts. When we found that
York/Hoffman had funded Dr John Zeigler to do dianobol research using York
lifters since the Soviets were already using testosterone, attention shifted to
steroids in favor of hard natural training. Many of us wanted no part of the
drugs. And were we ever disillusioned by Hoffman, the man who we'd trusted.

I hope Bill Starr's articles will fuel the fans for more rack work for bigger,
stronger muscles. A new beginning and a fair and honest chance for the rack.

best

kayo



----- Original Message -----
From: chrislutz25
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/20/2007 5:02:47 PM
Subject: [HIT Digest] static holds


Hi guys,

Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
seeing? Especially in training my clients. Because they don't move, I
get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
failure and it forces them down on a negative. Stops them from still
wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
then I don't progress them because of poor form.

Chris




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alas, not all power racks make use of cylinderical pins - not my two for sure! I
trust, however, such an adaptation is a great improvement.

Two websites I'm familiar with offer lots of other neat adaptations for power
rack use, originating with power lifters. Louie Simmons' Westside Barbell Club
and his young protoge, Dave Tate's Elite Fitness Systems both are rich in
articles and products. Simmons is the guy who introduced both use of chains and
bands for power development. It's too bad bodybuilders overlook those methods
since with slightly higher rep ranges than employed  by power lifters they
induce great hypertrophy.

If you check through T-Nation's articles by John Bernardi last year there's an
awesome one or two about the effects of diet he put Dave Tate on, transforming
him from a big fat powerlifter to an awesome physique just by stripping away the
fat. That goes to show what amazing physiques can be developed with pure
strength work. Simmons' students do include regular use of higher rep ranges
along with the low ones to develop capillary beds, endurance, mitochondria
biogenesis.

Another good source for novel equipment and training ideas is www.ironmind.com.
for those needing heavier dumbbell handles for assembling your own adjustable
dumbbells, Ironmind has then - real rugged. They're the leader in forearm,
finger and grip strength training. including the best crusher grips in the
world.

HIT expert Drew Baye's website contains many great links for equipment and
ideas, too.

For my part, here in Austin use of Craigslist.org has resulted in getting some
superior equipment for $25-75 - stuff selling for upwards of four hundred
dollars new.

best regards,

kayo


----- Original Message -----
From: sacredsystem
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/20/2007 6:59:38 AM
Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] pins tip


Thus Spake hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...>

> Hi I was reading Stuart Mc Roberts form book and thought Id pass on a
>tip he has. He recommends cutting a bit of garden hose to the correct
>length and then cutting it down the middle so it will grab around the
>pins in a power rack. It cuts down the vibrations on your wrists if
>dead lifting using the pins and like wise in the bench . It also means
>the bar doesn't slide around so easily.
Stuart's book is excellent. I also use a piece of garden hose on my
trapbar. It allows me to find proper hand centering placement without
always looking down and losing focus.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi guys,

Has anybody been using static holds with the same success I have been
seeing?  Especially in training my clients.  Because they don't move, I
get them into perfect loaded position and then have them hold until
failure and it forces them down on a negative.  Stops them from still
wanting to move something and thrashing about in order to do it and
then I don't progress them because of poor form.

Chris

This all may be a generational thing. Those who were around in the seventies and
eighties, then later, and were either in the irongame or really into it on the
West Coast, knew a Mentzer different from the one being protrayed today as the
spokesperson for HIT if not the higest pinnacle of HIT's development.

Arthur Jones began publishing in Iron Man Magazine in 1970. Everything was
called "Nautilus" at that time. In the mid seventies, Ellington Darden renamed
the actual training principles High Intensity Training. That was a good idea
since doing so separated the training principles from the newly invented
Nautilus equipment.

Mentzer was a bright but poorly educated person who loved to pontificate, acting
like a fountain of wisdom but taken as a crackpot know-it-all with a big chip on
his shoulder by sane, sober people. In those days, steroids were far from the
only drug people took - it was the era of  lsd, marijuana, and as the seventies
wore on in LA cocaine and meth increasingly became the drugs of popularity
(remember the disco era?). Then came heroin, the heroin and cocaine speedballs
that killed John Belushi. Bodybuilders were not immune from use of recreational
drugs in those days of great excesses. Dave Draper has told his story of how
alcohol and drug addication resulted in four episodes of congestive heart
failure within two or three hours, as well as how the Weider empire took
advantage of him for the best part of a decade.

Where does Mentzer fit in this? He was very briefly aligned with Nautilus as an
employee until beligerant insubordination got his brother Ray fired. Mentzer
seemed to think the 1980 Mr Olympia belonged to himself and nobody else and
whined and moaned about that until his death. As Darden so delicately and mildly
puts it, he never seemed to get over Arnold's victory - which he turned into 
his loss, amplifying it with the paranoia associated with drug abuse and the
breakdown in sober, rational personality that follows. Remember, with paranoic
personality disorders, if they can get you to agree to some of their premises,
they'll walk you right into their reality and you'll  mistake it as true.
Mentzer was good at sucking people into the notion he alone should have won in
80 but was deprived of what was rightfully his. Sure am glad Olympic athletes
are matured, sane, and sober enough to understand that having competed, not won,
is the big honor life bestows.

Darden recounts an episode that borders of hilarious - hilarious were it not so
sad, and were it not symptomatic of Mentzer's beleagured latter years - years
filled with all sorts of problems and tragedies. The people making money off of
Mentzer rightly don't focus any attention to the tragic breakdown then death of
Mentzer - who'd buy the stuff? In similar manner, Sigmund Freud was a big user
of cocaine, something not even regarded as a problem in his era (he died in
1939). Yet if a psychiatrist were publishing his strange ideas today and it was
known he had a cocaine addiction, who would take him seriously.

It's important to separate hero worship based on Mentzer's martyr complex (a big
mistake) from an open mind to some of his training ideas. Heavy Duty is a
variation on the HIT theme, or at least some of it. Darden makes it pretty clear
that in HIT circles, Mentzer's later ideas were not taken seriously but instead
taken as a misundertanding of HIT. And Darden's HIT covers a big lot of options
and strategies, certainly big enough to embrace the latter Mentzer were there a
compelling case that his ideas were even mildly HIT.

I can't figure out the Mentzer obsession. Of course, other than Viator, he's the
only other major bodybuilder ever directly HIT. I'd count Dorian Yates in the
fold, but many dispell him as "volume". Other than Viator, the others were HIT
Plus Steroids, so I'm not especially interested in counting them - you know, is
it HIT or is it Roids?

Some count J-reps as HIT. Certainly Dante's DC is HIT. and both those are
producing some drug-free, natural champions. I'd like to find some sober, sane,
drug-free, natural people using HIT's short workouts, living full lives, with
something interesting to tell us.

best


----- Original Message -----
From: Chad McCubbins
To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 2/7/2007 3:26:16 AM
Subject: RE: [HIT Digest] Darden Book


From the Darden book, I thought Mike was kidding when he was asking for
Arthur as God....

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=324004/grpspId=1705060950/msgId=
20006/stime=1170299777/nc1=4299909/nc2=3848640/nc3=3848542>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Another tip while we're at it:  Make sure your elbows
are locked out when deadlifting, otherwise the heavy
weight snaps your arms to extension when you drive up,
and you can tear your biceps where it meets the front
delt on the undergrip arm if you're using an alternate
grip.

--- hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...> escribió:

>  Hi I was reading Stuart Mc Roberts form book and
> thought Id pass on a
> tip he has. He recommends cutting a bit of garden
> hose to the correct
> length and then cutting it down the middle so it
> will grab around the
> pins in a power rack. It cuts down the vibrations on
> your wrists if
> dead lifting using the pins and like wise in the
> bench . It also means
> the bar doesn't slide around so easily.
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/

Thus Spake hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...>

> Hi I was reading Stuart Mc Roberts form book and thought Id pass on a
>tip he has. He recommends cutting a bit of garden hose to the correct
>length and then cutting it down the middle so it will grab around the
>pins in a power rack. It cuts down the vibrations on your wrists if
>dead lifting using the pins and like wise in the bench . It also means
>the bar doesn't slide around so easily.
Stuart's book is excellent. I also use a piece of garden hose on my
trapbar. It allows me to find proper hand centering placement without
always looking down and losing focus.

Thanks Miguel.

I agree on the calf situation at the moment I am just doing them after
I'm done with the squats. Seems to be working fine although I'm
shocked at the strength Ive lost after not doing calf raises for a
while, it may just be I need to get back in the groove as my calf's
haven't shrunk at all. 10 sets! After that I don't think I could walk,
its bad enough after 3.

  All the best Jeremy
>
> Jeremy,
>
> Chill, brother; I really did not know what you meant;
> no sarcasm should be implied from me.
>
> I've been trying to remember where John recommended
> putting calf work.  I do remember that he advised
> pairing squats with Casler crunches, not calf raises,
> though.
>
> It is difficult to imagine doing his kind of calf work
> interspersed with intense sets of squats.  I think he
> espouses ten sets of moderate to high reps with a very
> heavy weight and short rest intervals for standing
> calf raises.  (John is no fan of the seated variety,
> saying seated calf raises seem to put too much stress
> on the knees.)
>
> This just wouldn't mesh with all-out squats.  I'd say
> maybe John'd have you do your calf work after the two
> primary, antagonistic movements for the day.
> (Pulldowns - bench, squats - Casler crunches, curls
> -extensions, you get the idea.)
>
> Miguel
>
> --- hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@...> escribió:
>
> >  Yeah yeah I spelt a name wrong blah blah sarcasm
> > blah blah
> >
> > >
> > > i think hes trying to say casler. i dont know why
> > that jumps in to
> > my head but i think ive heard ref to him before.
> > >
> > > Miguel Angel Perez <metalhead2_mx@> wrote:
> >     What's this
> > Casela thing all about? Never heard of
> > > it.
> > >
> > > Miguel
> > >
> > > --- hmmmhmmhm <hmmmhmmhm@> escribió:
> > >
> > > > Hi guys as its quiet here at the moment I shall
> > ask
> > > > a question......
> > > >
> > > > [Tumble weed rolls across the forum a owl hoots
> > and
> > > > a wolf Howls]
> > > >
> > > > Any way I was going try it first but the
> > question
> > > > is...
> > > > When doing legs on the Casela style workout in
> > my
> > > > case squats is it ok
> > > > to do calf raises with them in the 20 rep 20r
> > 10r
> > > > 10r 5r 5r fashion?
> > > > Thanks for any thoughts just a bit concerned
> > about
> > > > calfs recovering in
> > > > time for squats so form doesnt become a problem.
> > > >
> > > > Oh yeah the Casela workout is still going well
> > > > dispite shoulder injury.
> > > > Im easing off dead lifts at the moment my lower
> > back
> > > > is hurting.
> > > > I may start doing two sets for deads if it is
> > > > ongoing.
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Correo Yahoo!
> > > Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y
> > antispam ¡gratis!
> > > Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out
> > lives, that we
> > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit,
> > every minute of every
> > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do
> > it now! There are
> > only so many tommorrows.  -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Need Mail bonding?
> > > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from
> > Yahoo! Answers users.
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Correo Yahoo!
> Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam ¡gratis!
> Regístrate ya - http://correo.espanol.yahoo.com/
>

Hi Ken when doing pull overs how low do you recommend going? as when
I used to do them I could go much lower than my training partners well
below horizontal. As I recall we did them with Dumbbells and lying
across the bench with hips fairly low below horizontal.
  ps Is Subscapularis the same as rhomboids?

Thanks Jeremy
>
> Thanks for the input; that's not the first time I've heard people
report how pullovers work their pecs and shoulders. I wonder how much
of that effect is one's structure and/or postural habits, versus if it
has anything at all to do with how one aligns themselves on the bench.
>
> Some of the Nautilus pullover machines purposefully bevelled the top
of the chair's backrest to facilitate fuller stretch backwards by
means of not just stretching the elbows/shoulders backward but
including leaning back in a manner stretching the upper thoractic
spine along with the rest - when doing that the beginning half of the
movement isn't pecs and is abs. some clients report getting pretty
sore abs from their first workouts on the Pullover.
>
> One reason I do a variety of pullovers is to really keep the
movement subtle for the lats and rotator cuff at the beginning of the
movement. In particular, those Old School bent arm pullovers really
stretch and activate the subscapularis - often a hidden culprit in
shoulder problems that aren't shoulder problems but subscap ones.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: sacredsystem
> To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: 2/4/2007 4:43:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Chinups three times per week
>
>
>
> On Jan 30, 2007, at 10:12 AM, Ken ONeill wrote:
>
> > Darden seems to be emphasizing strategies due to how quickly
> > adaptation occurs. I have added one element to my training from
Darden
> > - bent arm, dumbbell and two dumbbell pullovers, all direct, single
> > joint movements for lats
> Hi Ken,
>
> I don't look at dumbbell pullovers as a single joint movement for the
> lats. Even though they do hit the lats hard, I find that my chest gets
> hit just as hard along with a little of my shoulders. Even my triceps
> take a small hit . I look at it as a fine compound movement. I don't do
> them very often, but to me they are not considered a single joint
> movement.
>
> Take care
>
> James aka Sacredsystem
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

yeah. theres a story darden tells where (allegedly) mike came to his arthurs
ranch gate out of his mind and was claiming the he thought arthur was god.
arthur then called the authorities.

   as far as the other part, i dont mean mentzer. im saying that darden was
prescribing hit more towards the volume side( if i understand your reply). mike
would prescribe 1 workout every two weeks for an intermed. or advanced.  darden
states working out like anywhere from 2-4 time a week. and he had more
exercieses then need be. 2-3 should surfice at most. he had like 5-8 for some .

Daniel Lurie <dl1021@...> wrote:
           clint michels wrote:

Other than the Jones gate story (we're talking about the New High
Intensity training, right?):

p. 75 "Mike continued publishing articles about "Heavy Duty" training.
Toward the end, he prescribed routines that were so brief that only the
most advanced and overtrained could hope to get results from them."

> that kewl. its not the arthur story that made me think he has a grudge against
him as much. i cant quite put my ginger in it but i think he made some other
comments about mentzer that didnt sound right.but it might have been in some of
his other readings of his. just a sense i got i guess.
>
> i dont dislike darden but i just think he prescribes more toward the volume
side of hit.
> but if it works for some thats great. everybody has a diff. cup of tea.
>
> i hear lots of things about mike from back in the day. i guess ill never know
for sure, but that story about him thinking arthur was god sounded crazy. if its
true then drugs were the most prob. cause.
>
> im glad the posts are picking up again, they slowed down for a while, its good
to hear from you ken and others.
>
> kendaiganoneill <kayoneill@...> wrote:
> --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, clint michels <clintmichels23@...>
> wrote:
>
>> if its the one im thinking of with the white cover and all the
>>
> stories e.g arnold, sergio, casey, mike, ect. the stories are fun to
> read but he prescribes way too much volume. also it sounds like he
> has some kind of grudge with mike the way he talks about him. -peace.
>
>> Chad McCubbins <chadmcc@...> wrote: Just got the Darden
>>
> 'New HIT' book.
>
>>
> I don't get a sense that Darden has a grudge against the Mentzer's.
> Instead, if you read his text carefully, he politely and discretely
> let's us know that Mike Mentzer's mental/emotional condition was
> falling apart years before his untimely death. If you read Darden's
> text more carefully, he only reports on Arthur Jones' dismissal of
> Mentzer including ordering his gate guard to call the local sheriff in
> to deal with Mike's delusionary madness. In that case, Darden is only
> the messenger: if you wish to cast blame, then lay it one Arthur
> Jones. In which case Pandora's box opens!!!
>
> Darden's last two books are the best contributions to HIT made in
> years, on top of three dozen books over the last thirty years. He
> doesn't advocate volume increases so much as intensity amplifying
> techniques in concert with the latest/greatest research findings in
> muscle science - what we might well deem intensity amplification
> techniques.
>
> What's "new" about HIT in Darden's last two books? Admission of
> adaptation to any training necessitating frequent change of training
> programs. Darden is the cutting edge of HIT, freeing it from
> sectarian, if not almost religious, idolatry.
>
> best regards,
>
> Ken O'Neill
> Austin, Tejas
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows.
-----MICHEAL LANDON
>
> ---------------------------------
> TV dinner still cooling?
> Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>






"Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives, that we are dying.
Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of every day. Do it! I say.
Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There are only so many tommorrows. 
-----MICHEAL LANDON

---------------------------------
The fish are biting.
  Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi I was reading Stuart Mc Roberts form book and thought Id pass on a
tip he has. He recommends cutting a bit of garden hose to the correct
length and then cutting it down the middle so it will grab around the
pins in a power rack. It cuts down the vibrations on your wrists if
dead lifting using the pins and like wise in the bench . It also means
the bar doesn't slide around so easily.

Jeremy