For you to right off all those who have gone through addiction
recovery is quite a astonishing generalization!
The next bit is funny I don't see how you can judge intelligence on
inpersonal or distant subjective perception it remains a opinion. Zane
has more degrees does he? [hahahaha] Perhaps a body building tops
trumps should be made.
Jeremy

>
> Some argue that genius speaks despite drug usage, as a weak defense
of the
> Brothers Mentzer. Anyone familiar with addiction recovery knows
damned well
> such arguments are "drunken talk" - no sign of sobreity whatsoever.
Frank
> Zane, who's far more intelligent than Mentzer ever was, and holds two
> Master's degrees (Christine has three) is clean and sober: recent
photos of
> him at 64 are incredible.
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Hank Kearns <hkearns4@...>
> > To: <Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: 3/21/2007 8:32:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> >
> > I agree with the xhawks97. Yes, there are people who took steroids,
> > growth hormones, EPO, and did not suffer health issues, but the use
> > of illegal performance enhancing drugs is, in my opinion, ruining
> > sport and even fitness. I was born near York, PA where steroids were
> > first used in USA. It devastated the York Barbell lifting team.
> > Personally I do not even bother watching the Olympics. Maybe the
ping-
> > pong champ is not using something, but even there if I would had to
> > bet, would bet they are taking something that is illegal.
> >
> > People who use illegal drugs to enhance their physical stature are
> > frauds. Look at pictures of those individuals before using and
after.
> > There is a huge difference. It was not their training approach, or
> > hard work or discipline it was artificial.
> >
> > If you could keep the drugs to the "professionals" you might have an
> > argument, but it does not stop there. The temptation to look like
> > Arnold is huge for those young men and even women who want to be the
> > best.
> >
> > Hank Kearns
> >
> >
> > On Mar 8, 2007, at 4:19 PM, xhawks97 wrote:
> >
> > > I would have to say that drugs negate a lot of athletes
> > > performance/records -
> > >
> > > don't you think Bonds use of steriods kinds of negates any claim he
> > > will have to the home run record.
> > >
> > > I don't think McGuire will make the HOF now that he is being
> > > associated with drug use
> > >
> > > also, just think if Mantle wasn't such a drinker how many more HR's
> > > he would have hit
> > >
> > > I don't see how it is murky - you either play and compete clean or
> > > you don't
> > >
> > > --- In Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com, "hmmmhmmhm" <hmmmhmmhm@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If they used drugs then so what. Lots of people do, it is
> > > certainly
> > > > not a unusual thing. Just Google famous drug users does the use of
> > > > drugs negate any of there work? When you start attributing things
> > > to
> > > > drugs you run into very murky waters.
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > i enjoyed your post. the end result of mentzer unfortunately was
> > > an
> > > > early death.
> > > > > but im sure he new the risks and compaired that to an early
> > > death.
> > > > i didnt know he used coke and pot so much.
> > > > >
> > > > > i still enjoy his readings.
> > > > >
> > > > > i think one of the biggest problems with steroids( as with most
> > > > drugs) its a gateway drug. its normally never used by itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > that being said i dont think roids used intelligably would
> > > result
> > > > in negative effect so much and in most cases increase life(but
> > > sadly
> > > > too much is the normal case). since they're illegal they dont have
> > > > enough science to help prosper in the cause.
> > > > >
> > > > > as far as roid rage i think it only personafies a ones
> > > > personality. so if your already an a-hole you will act like a
> > > bigger
> > > > one. if your a more on the sane side you wont act up as much(
> > > > assuming your not overdoing them, but once again that not the
> > > norm)
> > > > >
> > > > > so in the end i guess its apersonal decision.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken ONeill <kayoneill@> wrote:
> > > > > Very interesting commentary and personal observations,
> > > Dr.
> > > > Dave.
> > > > >
> > > > > In our popular culture these days we tend to look at steroids as
> > > > performance drugs while at the same time viewing cocaine and
> > > marijuana
> > > > as recreational drugs: that is, we understand the latter drugs to
> > > be
> > > > mind-altering substances while assuming steroids simply make
> > > muscles
> > > > grow, perhaps having adverse side-effects, and that's it. Nothing
> > > > could be further from the truth. Steroids, especially in large
> > > > quantites, are themselves very potent mind-altering drugs. Taken
> > > for
> > > > long periods of time, they alter the user's personality. Here in
> > > Texas
> > > > there have been one or two post-steroid depression related
> > > suicides of
> > > > high school football players - and that's kids taking smaller
> > > > quantities for short periods of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I trust most of you have heard of 'roid rage, the kind of hair
> > > > trigger extreme anger rages steroid users sometimes snap into.
> > > That's
> > > > just the tip of the iceberg. Like Dr Dave, I, too, have been
around
> > > > serious steroid users for most of my life. Those drugs came on the
> > > > scene in the very early 1960s, there use becoming rampid by 1965.
> > > And
> > > > that was only dianobol, but taken in large daily doses. Users not
> > > only
> > > > become big and strong but develop a personal sense of
> > > inviolabilty -
> > > > nothing can happen to them - while the universe now revolves
around
> > > > them. paranoia sets in too, resulting in their social world
> > > becoming
> > > > increasingly shrunken and narrowed down. Cant forget what amounts
> > > to
> > > > meglomania - they're the center of the universe, the smartest,
> > > > strongest, wisest, etc., while naturally invalidating and
> > > depricating
> > > > everyone else.
> > > > >
> > > > > As mentioned, with withdrawl, depression usually sets in.
For one
> > > > thing, large scale use can result in permanent testicular atrophy
> > > and
> > > > profound andropause - that is, their testicles shrink to the size
> > > of
> > > > dried up raisins, and they produce no testosterone. For most,
> > > however,
> > > > that's a relatively temporary thing, taking upwards of six months
> > > for
> > > > the system to restart - and with great loss of strength and size.
> > > > Hence all that made them the center of the universe now wastes
> > > away,
> > > > leaving a shadow of one's former inflated self. Can you
imagine the
> > > > coping, the depression, and the need for healthily adjusted ego
> > > > strength to cope with that - something woefully lacking in most
> > > > bodybuilders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Left ventricle diseases seem to occur as a result as well,
> > > leading
> > > > to early fatal heart attacks.
> > > > >
> > > > > So, now what's the synergy of large amounts of steroids coupled
> > > with
> > > > cocaine and pot? Synergy implies a condition in which adding them
> > > all
> > > > up the result is greater than the sum - that is, one plus one
> > > likely
> > > > equals five in effect. The Mentzers may have brought their
> > > emotional
> > > > discord to bodybuilding - given two brothers with borderline
> > > > personalities it seems like a family condition - but the use
of all
> > > > those drugs cannot but have made it much, much worse. How sad. May
> > > > they rest in peace.
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: David Lewandowski
> > > > > To: Hitdigest@yahoogroups.com
> > > > > Sent: 2/22/2007 1:26:35 PM
> > > > > Subject: [HIT Digest] Re: Darden Book
> > > > >
> > > > > Ken is so right about heavy drug use in not only the Mentzers
> > > but in
> > > > society as a whole. My friend from high school was Ray Mentzer's
> > > and
> > > > Benny Poda's training partner. I worked for Ray for a month at his
> > > gym
> > > > in Redondo Beach almost 20 years ago though I trained there for
> > > about
> > > > 2 years. My friend was a brilliant guy until he started to do
> > > steroids
> > > > and along with Mentzer would snort cocaine before working out.
> > > > Afterwards, they would smoke pot to calm down from the coke. He
> > > would
> > > > try to inject Ray Mentzer with an 18 gauge needle and it would
snap
> > > > because of all the scar tissue. The scar tissue had to be
> > > surgically
> > > > removed. He would do 5cc at a time twice a week and 100 Anavar a
> > > day
> > > > plus other many other orals! Benny took so many that the whites of
> > > his
> > > > eyes were very yellow. Ray did a 950lb parallel squat wearing only
> > > a
> > > > belt, gym shorts, and a t-shirt. He weighed 305lbs at the time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ray was a quite an intelligent man as was Mike though I would
> > > have
> > > > to say after being around Ray and watching him have several mental
> > > > breakdowns, both he and Mike were socially retarded in that they
> > > could
> > > > not converse about normal things or with those of average
> > > intelligence
> > > > especially halfwits. With that being said both were very loyal and
> > > > quite kind to those that were in their inner circle. Neither gave
> > > > their friendship easily.
> > > > >
> > > > > My high school friend totally lost his mind. I lived with him
> > > for 4
> > > > months during which time he slept at the most 1.5hrs a night. He
> > > went
> > > > from having a well paying job at 16y.o. with his own apartment and
> > > > eventually working for the same company as an aerospace
engineer to
> > > > being a box boy for a Rite Aid somewhere in Northern California.
> > > > Unbeknownst to me he was also extremely abusive to his girlfriend.
> > > He
> > > > was sent to Florida quite often to work on the Space Shuttle and
> > > had a
> > > > girlfriend down there. He secretly married her and then lived most
> > > of
> > > > the time in California with his girlfriend. He became super
> > > secretive
> > > > and paranoid.
> > > > >
> > > > > All the above rambling does have a point. The point being
> > > regardless
> > > > of their personal life all had exceptional ideas about training. I
> > > > have benefited tremendously from Heavy Duty(Mike's form of HIT).
> > > It's
> > > > easy to cast stones at those whose ideas we disagree with. We can
> > > find
> > > > fault even with that which doesn't matter much like their
> > > > personalities and personal life and throw away their very useful
> > > ideas
> > > > along with the thought of them. On the other hand, those that we
> > > share
> > > > beliefs and values with just seem so nice and charming to the
point
> > > > that we give credence to any intellectual drivel that may come
from
> > > > their mouths. For example, many could not integrate the thought
> > > that
> > > > Marion Jones could be such a nice person and yet take all kinds of
> > > > drugs and lie about it. We learn very little from those we agree
> > > with.
> > > > Learning to love your enemy is actually learning to love yourself
> > > > unconditionally.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr. Dave
> > > > > Man-Up-Now.com
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Somebody should tell us right at the start of out lives,
that we
> > > > are dying. Then we might live life to the limit, every minute of
> > > every
> > > > day. Do it! I say. Whatever it is you want to do, do it now! There
> > > are
> > > > only so many tommorrows. -----MICHEAL LANDON
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > > Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> > > > > in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
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