GSOwatch : Messages : 923-952 of 7156

http://recoveredalcoholic.blogspot.com

This is no joke folks --> http://tinyurl.com/f4zsq

Peace,

Danny Schwarzhoff

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (2)

#951

From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Thu Aug 31, 2006 11:37 pm
Subject: Re: outside literature

gratefuldenn...

Offline

Hi Group;

One point that strikes me about the literature discussion is a seemingly forgotten point and that is the Big Book belongs to the fellowship, and was born from the fellowship itself. It is the only book that can hold this claim.

The Big Book was written by many drunks as Dr. Bob�s daughter, Sue Smith Windows, stated in her deposition. It was written by many drunks around her dad�s kitchen table. It was edited and discussed by nearly everyone in the fellowship at that time. The purpose was to show what they discovered as a solution to the problem of alcoholism that could be used by all alcoholics if they wanted it and needed it. Sure some drunk now and then could be struck sober by spiritual experience but they discovered a common solution that would work for any drunk that was willing to go to any length to get sober. From the forward to the first edition; �To show other alcoholics PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED is the main purpose of this book.�

Regardless of what people thought about what happened with the book later when Bill secretly copyrighted it and the schemes to profit and own it supposedly in trust for the fellowship came about, the fellowship still thought it was their book. Like Henrietta said to Clarence; �He�s trying to steal our book.� Members like Clarence were also upset when they found out royalties were being paid on the book. We all know what has happened with the book by those claiming to own it but that doesn�t change the fact that it is still our book and they stole it. Now that the original edition is public domain it is again our book, although claims are still held for translations around the world, this too will change I believe if we don�t give up on the liberation of what belongs to us all.

No other book within or outside AA can hold this above claim. Books written within the fellowship like the 12 and 12 are just ones mans opinion and was originally written for profit and published by Harpers. Other AA literature was also written by one or two and approved by a committee and never presented to the whole fellowship for approval, and was also motivated by profit. Many other books were written and sold outside AA and the motivations can only be speculated on. Other books have sectarian religious overtones and misquotes from the Big Book. At the end of this post I will give one example just from one page in the �24 Hour A Day� book that I posted on another site.

Sure groups are free to write their own literature but other groups are free not to associate with it and it is just one or some group�s opinion. I have seen some real weird literature from AA group�s like some that promote alcoholism as an addiction and welcome drug addicts. This is a door I rather not open within AA and my experience from my old home group is the only thing we needed is the Big Book and if there was something some new person didn�t understand he or she could talk with another sober drunk.

I could just picture an AA meeting where someone brings in a Christian based book, and someone else brings in a Wicca book, a Jewish or Hermetic Qabalistic book, A Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, Taoist, Shamanistic, Catholic, or Moslem book with each claiming to be the correct concept of God. The group will last about fifteen minutes. Some will just walk out because they consider the others to be evil. But all could sit together without expressing their personal opinions and read the Big Book together in spiritual unity.

-------------
Example from the 24 Hour A Day book of misquotes:

You quoted:
>"There was nothing left for us but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at our feet by Alcoholics Anonymous. By doing so, we have a spiritual experience which revolutionizes our whole attitude towards life, towards others, and towards God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives there in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do for ourselves."<

This is the only thing on the page that has quotes. I wonder where it was quoted from since it is usually the standard to mention where something was quoted from.

It isn�t quoted from the big book. The first line reads:
>"There was nothing left for us but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at our feet by Alcoholics Anonymous.< (quote continues)

The Big Book reads from page 25:
��there was nothing left for us but to pick up the simple kit of spiritual tools laid at our feet.�

It doesn�t say �Alcoholics Anonymous.�

The next sentence reads:
>By doing so, we have a spiritual experience which revolutionizes our whole attitude towards life, towards others, and towards God's universe.<

The Big Book reads:

�That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe.�

The post reads:
> The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives there in a way which is indeed miraculous.<

It may just be a typo but the word �there� is not there in the Book.

The post reads:
>He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do for ourselves."<

The Big Book reads; ��never do by ourselves.� Not: �for� ourselves.
----------------

Peace,

Dennis M.

#950

From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 9:22 pm
Subject: Re: Re: outside literature

newkohl

Offline

I love those catch phrases.  Singleness of purpose.  What exactly is that?

In the end of this tunnel of darkness is a light.  Our steps are a process
that hopefully will create an entire psychic change sufficient to recovery
from the obsession and compulsion of our dilemma of drinking alcohol
irresponsibly.  The only known way that happened and was well accepted in
the formative years of AA was a spiritual experience or awakening.  The
steps more or less codify the process to an educational spiritual awakening.
Keep that in mind.  I'll come back to it.

Now I don't mind knocking Conference Approval of literature.  In my years I
haven't seen anything come out of the conference except maybe the paperback
big book.  The rest could be used in the bon fire of burning AABBSG Big
Books distributed free around the world.  This doesn't mean all our
literature is bad.  But for my opinion I haven't seen anything (less the
paperback bb) in 25 years or more that we "needed".

The Golden Key is a 6 page pamphlet. For my money I'd replace every AA
pamphlet with that pamphlet. It is a process to intertwine our spiritual
growth into every area of our lives.   Who's to say it is promotion or
attraction.

If we get into promotion, every AA meeting promotes products.  Most aren't
very attractive if we're honest. (The pot lucks are usually pretty much fun
though)   IF however we live our lives in a simple manner like that
described in the Big Book or even the Golden Key, we don't have to sell
anything.  People are attracted to the living example.  Then that example
can say.... I learned this here (The Greatest Thing in the World, Prison to
Praise, Sobriety and Beyond, The Golden Books, ad infintum).

People, folks are not attracted to drunks, I assure you that.  But a drunk
sober by the grace of divinity is like sunshine in the face of someone who
wants what the recovered drunk has.  What that drunk has and is attractive
is divine grace.  We don't get folks sober, neither do the steps - but if we
can live our lives in accordance with a few guiding principles the only
outcome is that we do become attractive, physically, mentally, and
spiritually.  We are transformed into something useful to our friends, and
family making us of maximum service to God and out fellows.

Bless,
Norm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill" <bbfreeaa@...>
To: <GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:49 AM
Subject: [GSOwatch] Re: outside literature

> --- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...> wrote:
>
> "As I stated I am not against anyone passing on a book about anything
> to anyone I just don't think we should be promoting them in AA."
>
> Dennis,
>   I totally agree with this statement.  I, too, have read many other
> literary works that I've found helpful.  However, I will not promote
> or even allow them in our home group.  The reason is simple.  AA has a
> singleness of purpose.  If I bring an outside book in, no matter how
> good it is, I have opened the door for others to do so as well.
> Though I've not experienced it in my home group, I see it all over my
> home area.  Someone brings in a spiritual book of some sort.  Next
> someone brings in some psychobabble book from Dr Phil or whatever.
> Next comes the proper diet book for alcoholics and so on and so on.
> Once we start down that slippery slope who knows where it will go.
>   I view "conferenced approved" as a simple guideline to keep us
> focused on singleness of purpose and avoid "multi-purpose" activities.
> Some see it a something more sinister but AA unity is paramout to
> AA's survival.  In spite of my love of many other spiritual guides,
> including the Bible, I will not bring them into an AA meeting.
>                                                 Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

#949

From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:48 pm
Subject: Re: outside literature

newkohl

Offline

Keep it simple.

I believe Bob did say this to Bill. Clarence Snyder probably said it to Bill also. Howard Hill probably had his say about keeping it simple as well as Ralph Pfau.

We are talking about the late 40s here. "The program" was already established. Cleveland Central Office was up and running wasn't it? There is no reason for Bob to tell Bill to keep it simple unless they were discussing the service conference fiasco. THAT was complicated and the motion to go that way had already failed with the Alcoholic Foundation twice and Bill was still pushing it.

I don't know what really happened. I wasn't there, but I've been interested in AA history for years and saying "Keep it simple" just doesn't seem like something you say to someone who already keeps it simple with their recovery efforts.

If I were to tell someone in AA to keep it simple it would be during the 4th step process as most folks work row by row when they should probably be working column by column as the BB suggests. Row by row is frightening, column by column allows a fearless inventory.

Bless,
Norm

PS: If anyone is new and does a 4th step as suggested don't burn it in some frenzied ritual, you'll need the list later.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Chambley
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 8:41 AM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] outside literature

<snip>

Keep it simple is what Br. Bob said. I know nothing simpler than reading the Big Book from the beginning and doing what it instructs as you go along. Only then was I able to relate my understanding of spiritual ideas to others.

Conference Approved Literature is created by desire to grow AA as a business. Our Big Book was created as a tool for the individual to recover from Alcoholism. There is a difference

You guys are great,

Ed C.

#948

From: "Ed Chambley" <echambley@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:33 pm
Subject: RE: outside literature

echambley

Offline

Why did Wilson rewrite the 12 steps and the 12 traditions changing their meaning? Great question Bruce.

I would love to read comments on this.

It has been said to me many times by others that we give it away the way got it. Problem with this is I am still getting it. Truth be told if I were to suggest to a newcomer to get it the way I got it, most would have a lot more of insanity to live through. The Little Red Book suggest to me to learn as much about alcoholism as possible. Even potential alcoholics deserve an understanding of alcoholism, even family members.

That said, what if I did not get it the way I understand it today. Would this mean I would be in error in helping in the way I currently understand? I don’t believe so. I do feel everyone gains understanding of God in just one method. There are many ways, I only know the one I currently understand.

What is outside? The debate continues among many in AA. The debate is outside in my opinion. I am one guy with a way that is working for me. This way has changed many times and will continue to change. I can look back and remember my early days in AA, but I cannot remember all of it. What I remember I cannot even be sure if it is correct memories. Some may seem clear, but I cannot be absolutely sure. I do remember the guys who helped me in the beginning used the Big Book. Did they do it differently than I do today? In my memory they did, but this is what I could understand at that time.

To tell you the truth, I cannot remember what AA was to me in the beginning, I can just remember these guys cared about my sobriety.

Ed C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce A. Johanson
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 3:38 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] outside literature

I guess the best way to start this is by saying I really am not too sure how to start this reply! As has been written many times we are all here for various reasons and though I came for one reason, curiosity, I stay for many reasons now. I quit giving to groups and/or meetings that gave to New York back in the mid 80s for certain reasons. Though most of those reasons are still there; I have learned much through you people and the web site “watchdog.”

As to the materials I mentioned, yes, I did consider long and hard before giving them to any newcomer. First in my mind that newcomer has to be serious. And the stuff I give is all stuff that was used in early AA and some is even still being used now in some parts of the country from what I have read. The Akron stuff was written by Dr. Bob and others to help the newcomer understand AA better. And speaking of Dr. Bob, I have heard he was never seen with a Big Book rather he always had his Good Book with him. And if you would read my note with the fellowship definition it started out as “I am beginning to think.” Believe me, there will be no group in the area I live promoting that stuff!

Perhaps the only thing I give a newcomer that is a little far gone is a 4^th step inventory thingy I found on the net years ago called “stuff.” And though it is really long I tell the guy that it is there to just help and many of the questions may not pertain to him and it is basically just to help jar his mind and memory. It is still done, as directed, in the Big Book column style. It also comes with a list of institutions and principals because I know many fall short in those two areas. I have offered that for about six years now and I would say I would be lucky if I gave away 4 a year.

The reason I do this is because I was one of those Big Book thumpers ( I still like the Big Book and use it) but I was becoming rather uncomfortable in that role. And after lots of meditation and writing it occurred to me that how can I tell the newcomer he has to read the Big Book and understand it in order to sober up when I didn’t. I was starting to tell the newcomers to do stuff I never did and it just wasn’t sitting right. So I started leaving my book at home again and giving what it was like for me. I had read the Big Book in a treatment center and the only thing that made much sense were the stories. And when I got to the tables we talked our personal experience, which I had little at first, used the Red Book and Stools and Bottles. Shortly there after I found the Golden Books and sometimes when I shared with a topic I would use from that.

And quite a few years later I belonged to an Alano Club and belonged to a Squad of “old Geezers.” The club got busted by the police for high stakes gambling (though ALL money was going to the club) and all hell broke loose for awhile. The younger ones wanted to do away with all card playing and chanting that they got sober by the Big Book and that is all we need. The “Old Geezers” looked confused because as several told me they got sober playing cards, going fishing, working on each others cars, and sitting around each others kitchen table drinking coffee.

There is an old psychological theory that at the age of around 17-19 we start to seek out company who think like we do thus justifying our very existence. It obviously is not true all the time but I have found it to be so much of the time. I think I have seen something of a similarity within the fellowship as well. What ever that fellowship was like when you found God or what ever spirituality you found that is the fellowship you seek. I know I recently spent some time trying to figure out exactly what it was that I liked and I crave about that first ten years that I don’t like about this last ten years. I realize I will in all probability never find what I crave; I am older, all the people are different, different city, I am different, and all things change. And so I do the best I can to get as close as I can. I am up to about eight people that I can just stop over at and have some coffee and a smoke and they at my house. Mind you, this is not the norm for this area except for some of the women and they are always such a catty bunch anyways! (grin)

And so we seem to arrive back at the standard questions of what is AA and what is outside literature? If the Big Book is to be the alpha and the omega of AA literature why did Wilson rewrite the 12 steps in the 12X12? Of course some say that book is a compendium to the Big Book while others say he changed his mind. And I suppose one could first ask outside what? Is it outside AA or outside conference approved? And there was good ole Dr. Bob having his pigeons read Drummonds The Greatest Gift In The World for thirty days and that is pretty far outside AA or is it? When I write to GSO they have always wrote that conference approved has to do with sales only. A big question I ponder from time to time is I wonder that even though we know the Big Book is the biggest selling piece of AA literature is it the most read or useful in early sobriety? (obviously can not be answered but perhaps surmised?) And if literature written by others within our fellowship is considered outside then we just might as well sit around the table reading the Big Book to each other and then go home keeping our mouths shut.

I agree with Bill and Dennis about psycho babble, self help books and the Tibetan Book of the Dead but why is it that so many, it seems to me, go from “A” to “Z?” If it is not conference approved we will soon be reading The Idiot by Dostoevsky. Every meeting or group is free to pick their own rules and I am not against a group that votes conference material only. I belong to one on Friday nite tho I voted against it. The strange thing to me about that is is that rule was violated three times and I was the one to mention the violation. Once it was with a visiting lady who read some play that she said helped her quite a bit. I waited til she was done and then politely told her the rule we had in case of future visits which she mentioned were quite possible. She got a little upset and the very people that voted conference only were giving approval for what she had read (lol) In another group I have belonged to we had a policy that if you were going to use literature of questionable value we asked you inquire first about using it.

Why is it we talk of the power we have such as with the purse or the group conscience and the traditions state every group can make its own as long as it doesn’t affect another group or AA as a whole but when this literature thing comes up it becomes a powerless issue. It becomes if it is not conference approved all frigging hell will break loose and there will be nothing we can do to stop it! I don’t understand that logic and never have. Maybe I am the burnt out bulb in the box?

And so for me I love AA and I love the fellowship and to me we are a fellowship of men and women who share our experience strength and hope that others might recover. I firmly believe the promises of step ten and A, B, and C of chapter 5. I do not think any of are much different…we just disagree about some of the piddly stuff.

Bruce Johanson

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 8:56 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [GSOwatch] outside literature

I think we need to consider just what we are advocating when we offer all these books and literature within an AA environment or as a representative of AA. Many of these books are sectarian or at least have sectarian influences. AA is international and the ‘God as you understand God’ is where our fellowship should remain. Like it or not the Big Book has been accepted within AA as our main text that outlines our program of recovery. I really believe it is all we need for our fellowship. My only concern within AA has been with copyright and ownership for which solutions have been found and more are on the horizon. I do like David’s idea for a book that will be informative and educational for the fellowship and may aid in uplifting awareness as to the copyright related issues that has only weakened the spiritual power of the fellowship.

In the past many of these books were simply given/recommended by a sponsor in relation to a single person and not promoted as an AA group. Where will the line be drawn if we open up the floodgates of other literature often written for profit or by someone that doesn’t have a complete understanding of alcoholics or our recovery program? Shall we promote the Hindu guru’s book “The Mustered Seed” or the “Tibetan Book of the Dead” or “Tales of the Sufi’s” all of which were also recommended to me by AA members. How about the tons of alcohol recovery books by the expert professionals filled with psycho-babble but are read by many alcoholics in recovery as many are big sellers? Where will it end?

The notion that the Big Book is too complicated is nonsense. My grand-sponsor had a forth grade education and hardly knew how to read or write when he got sober. The book worked for him. I think the opposite is truer that some are way too smart to understand the book and our simple program of recovery.

More free pocket Big Books may be forthcoming at some point, God willing. I believe if someone wanting sobriety is not willing to read a couple hundred pages of the book then he or she is not willing to go to any lengths. Our recovery is passed on one drunk to another anyway and I for one do not expect some newcomer to read the Big Book and find sobriety, although it is possible, but a major part of my recovery is passing on the information to him.

We do not need more division in AA but more points of agreement.

Peace,

Dennis M.

__________ NOD32 1.1730 (20060829) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

#947

From: "Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 8:18 pm
Subject: RE: lit to newbies

pagan50

Offline

I do agree with you about the drawback with the added drawback that some words just mean something other than the norm in certain groups. And dictionaries tend to go with culture rather than what really is right such as the word parameter. People started using it wrong as it does sound loftier than perimeter and the dictionary reflects that change. Also in readings of the Oxford group I came across that the word sanity took a form that would not be in the dictionary. It was of use to only some in the Oxford Group. If you were sane you were God-Centered and so if you were insane you knew what path you were on and who you were going to meet. I once went through the 164 pages using that definition and it does fit quite well. So at times it gets risky at best with a dictionary. In my letter on fellowship I did, however include a definition from 1913 I believe which was basically the same as the one I posted. I usually try to include a definition from our dictionary that we use in my Big Book study that was printed in 1938. That was the closest we could get and still have it be a pretty decent dictionary (one of those 2 � foot high buggers with the history of the word and all the works).

As to the rest (paragraph 2 &3) Wow! A political major? Or just one hell of a deep interest?

Was the Paris Commune related to the French student-worker strike (fight) in the 60s or earlier?

You have sparked an interest here. Thanks

Bruce

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 7:42 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] lit to newbies

Hi Bruce;

One drawback about using dictionaries is they only reflect the norms of a given time and place and its accepted usage within a society. When a word is used enough by the ignorant or for propaganda purposes it gets redefined. A good example is how the term ‘liberal’ has been redefined to be associated with the left when in reality it is a long way from the left, as it still supports the same system of government and economic system of their conservative counterparts, while the left is opposed to the system itself.

Your example is a good one of the same thing. All that is needed is to study the intention of the creators of these concepts and philosophies. Socialism was first used by those believing in a central base of power rather that be a central committee, a party or a state of which the latter history has shown to be the general outcome. They achieved the ‘state’ by telling the common folks that it was temporary and ‘a withering away of the state’ would soon follow but it never did as power always seeks to maintain itself. On the other hand the term ‘communism’ (commune) was created by anarchist that didn’t believe in the state and was representative of power being decentralized to the local communities and interacting with each other as a federation of communes, (Such as the Paris Commune). This became known as ‘communist anarchy.’ Decentralization of power down to the community and workplace through cooperation through industrial unionism (as opposed to trade unionism) is syndicalism or anarcho-syndicalism. And decentralization down to the individual is just plain anarchy.

Point of interest: Actually syndicalism was outlawed in the U.S.A. beginning with the anti-syndicalism laws that began is Washington State after the Seattle general strike of 1919 followed soon after by the Palmer Raids when Marshall Law was declared throughout the country. Under the law you could not advocate, write or talk about syndicalism. During the Palmer Raids strikes were broken, union halls and homes were raided, and many hundreds of union organizers were thrown in prison without charges or trials. One of the most popular and largest labor movement terms were not even found in the dictionary until most states began to repeal the law. It was repealed in California in 1972 but there are a few states that still have it.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bruce A. Johanson

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:42 AM

Subject: [GSOwatch] lit to newbies

For a one way trip to the dictionary:

http://www.onelook.com/

Gives lots of definitions from many various dictionaries; some, at least I have never heard before. It has Websters’ Pocket Dictionary beat to hell!! (lol) Which reminds me of a little story of my days gone by. Back in my formative war years (late 60s) I was working in a grain mill shoveling grain out of box cars. Our foreman had a pocket dictionary. We got bsing politics one break and I said I was a socialist working in a capitalistic environment. He said Oh you’re a communist. So we had a very short discussion until I told him to look it up in his dictionary. One word definition of socialism: communism. I was pissed so I had him look up communism. You got it. One word definition: socialism. I was so infuriated that he was right because of that stupid little book I went back to work!

But as to handing stuff out; I have learned that it seems most don’t want anything more than what they have. Talk around the table about open mindedness and search for truth is basically just that: talk. I think complacency, another word I finally looked up, runs rather rampant. And I should note I am speaking just of the general area I am living in. If there is a newcomer off the street or by way of another treatment center I have to be careful if they get certain sponsors and even ask me for stuff. So it is not like I am on a street corner handing out leaflets, but I have to look for those who really seem to want it. I still get in trouble from time to time with my “Martin Luther” role but the funny thing is is that when I finally take the piece down off the bulletin board it usually has about ten to fifteen thumb tack holes in them so someone is reading them if only to get pissed off.

So I would guess we do what we can and we hope and pray that what we do is the right thing.

Bruce

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

Ed Wrote:

Another concept definition fellowship can be found here:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fellowship

Webster’s version.

We can hand out anything we wish. The little red book is a favorite of mine. I am not very successful in getting others to read them. Why would the new people in AA read this literature when the vast majority I know says meetings and fellowship are the way to go.

I looked up the words from your suggestion. Thanks! There are a lot of like minded references in the definitions. I remember reading a book which told me if I follow a certain set of guidelines the fellowship I crave would grow up around me. This has happened in many different ways and at different times.

Sometimes I wonder should I do the handing out, or should I do what I am doing and watch for what happens. Right now I do some handing out. The fellowship I see is a small subset of what is in today’s AA is called a group. There are many more in my “home group”. Within them there is a spiritual entity with which I am a part. New members come occasionally and some leave.

__________ NOD32 1.1730 (20060829) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

#946

From: "Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:37 pm
Subject: RE: outside literature

pagan50

Offline

Bruce Johanson

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

We do not need more division in AA but more points of agreement.

Peace,

Dennis M.

__________ NOD32 1.1730 (20060829) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

#945

From: "Bill" <bbfreeaa@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:49 pm
Subject: Re: outside literature

bbfreeaa

Offline

--- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...> wrote:

  "As I stated I am not against anyone passing on a book about anything
to anyone I just don't think we should be promoting them in AA."

Dennis,
    I totally agree with this statement.  I, too, have read many other
literary works that I've found helpful.  However, I will not promote
or even allow them in our home group.  The reason is simple.  AA has a
singleness of purpose.  If I bring an outside book in, no matter how
good it is, I have opened the door for others to do so as well.
Though I've not experienced it in my home group, I see it all over my
home area.  Someone brings in a spiritual book of some sort.  Next
someone brings in some psychobabble book from Dr Phil or whatever.
Next comes the proper diet book for alcoholics and so on and so on.
Once we start down that slippery slope who knows where it will go.
    I view "conferenced approved" as a simple guideline to keep us
focused on singleness of purpose and avoid "multi-purpose" activities.
  Some see it a something more sinister but AA unity is paramout to
AA's survival.  In spite of my love of many other spiritual guides,
including the Bible, I will not bring them into an AA meeting.
                                                  Bill

#944

From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:01 pm
Subject: Re: outside literature

gratefuldenn...

Offline

That is refreshing news Ed. Your area will be in my meditation thoughts. Necessity may bring AA back.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: Ed Chambley

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 8:41 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] outside literature

Dennis,

I do see a little hope. It is small but bright. There are small growing clusters of the AA that was presented to me growing in my community. I can see the AA enthusiasm between meetings. Small dedicated newcomers taking meetings to The Salvation Army here in Atlanta. These newcomers are being supported by older members. What a concept. There are 6 dedicated Big Book Study meetings which have started in the last 18 months. We stay in contact with each other. All these groups are growing. All have members which support Half-way houses and treatment centers. In my group 3 guys actually visit an AA clubhouse to carry the message.

I have experienced what you have and agree with your sentiments. It seems kind of like there is AA beginning to develop within BB.

The literature is another concern all together. Our Big Book tells me to use helpful books for meditation. I have and do. This is personal suggestion which is often quoted as a reason to introduce other literature to our meetings. I cannot explain this to someone who does not wish to be reasonable. I have stated to many members there are many books in my library which I have found beneficial, but they did not become beneficial until I recovered from alcoholism. Prior to this it was just information with no meaning. No matter what meaning it gives me it still doesn�t give me the excuse to forget our purpose. As a newcomer I could not understand a spiritual concept if it hit me upside the head. Why should I think others who are new should.

Keep it simple is what Br. Bob said. I know nothing simpler than reading the Big Book from the beginning and doing what it instructs as you go along. Only then was I able to relate my understanding of spiritual ideas to others.

Conference Approved Literature is created by desire to grow AA as a business. Our Big Book was created as a tool for the individual to recover from Alcoholism. There is a difference

You guys are great,

Ed C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 11:06 AM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] outside literature

Hi Mae,

As I stated I am not against anyone passing on a book about anything to anyone I just don�t think we should be promoting them in AA. I am not an advocate of Conference Approved literature either, neither do I think the big Book should be owned by a corporation. I am opposed to much of the literature the Conference supposedly approves anyway. The Big Book was around before the Conference was even created. I had a lot of books that helped me understand a great deal and helped me to let go of old ideas about God but I would never bring them up in an AA meeting and all of them I read after a spiritual experience as a result of the Steps.

I believe our spiritual experience as a result of AA�s 12 Steps is independent of our spiritual beliefs anyway, like it states on page 75: �We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience.�

I don�t even like it when people read Grapevine articles in the meeting. Hell in my first year I had a hard time when it rained because I worked on power poles for many years and we just drank beer when it rained. As a solution of what to do with myself when it rained I started going to the race track and I got pretty good betting mudders but I would never offer that as a solution to some newcomer in an AA meeting. A lot of things helped us individually but let�s just try to keep AA, AA. But it may be too far gone for that now. I see very little of AA today as it was when I got sober, not to say it was perfect by any means, but there was still a lot of basic, Big Book, drunk on the couch AA then. Like my sponsor used to say; in the early days they had one meeting a week and lots of AA in between. Now they have three meetings a day and no AA in between.

I really wish there was something that once again would bring me to feel enthusiastic about AA and recommending it for a newcomer again. Heck many don�t even read the Big Book now. For me the Big Book was simply magical and my experiences used to go right along with those described in the book; page for page, Step by Step, and experience by experience. And it was simply a joy to have so many around me with the same experience. I also miss the magic in the meetings. Today a typical AA meeting around here is less exciting than the waiting rooms at the VA Hospital. Sorry if I don�t seem to up about the new proposals.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: mae

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:20 AM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] outside literature

I hear you Dennis, however there have been other books that have helped me in my sobriety.

I had many questions which were not answered by the Big Book. Questions about God and how to arrive at a concept of God.

Oldtimers gave me pamphlets....Acceptance by Vincent Collins, The Golden Key by Emmet Fox, and the 24 hour a Day Book. When I came in, these and other books were available. Not now. What I hear ad nauseum is the touting of "AA Conference Approved literature."

I may have said this earlier, if I have forgive me. While I was doing my clinicals at the long term care facility, a friend of mine was admitted. We were chatting one day and he mentioned he only relies on "AA approved literature." I looked at him and mentioned in the beginning there wasn't any BB, also the Bible is not conference approved. He agreed that I had a point.

Dennis my point is there are many books that have helped me solidify my belief in God. God is why I am sober. I had a spiritual experience that propelled me to the doors of AA.

mae

Dennis <gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I think we need to consider just what we are advocating when we offer all these books and literature within an AA environment or as a representative of AA. Many of these books are sectarian or at least have sectarian influences. AA is international and the �God as you understand God� is where our fellowship should remain. Like it or not the Big Book has been accepted within AA as our main text that outlines our program of recovery. I really believe it is all we need for our fellowship. My only concern within AA has been with copyright and ownership for which solutions have been found and more are on the horizon. I do like David�s idea for a book that will be informative and educational for the fellowship and may aid in uplifting awareness as to the copyright related issues that has only weakened the spiritual power of the fellowship.

.

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1�/min.

#943

From: "Ed Chambley" <echambley@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:41 pm
Subject: RE: outside literature

echambley

Offline

Dennis,

I do see a little hope. It is small but bright. There are small growing clusters of the AA that was presented to me growing in my community. I can see the AA enthusiasm between meetings. Small dedicated newcomers taking meetings to The Salvation Army here in Atlanta. These newcomers are being supported by older members. What a concept. There are 6 dedicated Big Book Study meetings which have started in the last 18 months. We stay in contact with each other. All these groups are growing. All have members which support Half-way houses and treatment centers. In my group 3 guys actually visit an AA clubhouse to carry the message.

I have experienced what you have and agree with your sentiments. It seems kind of like there is AA beginning to develop within BB.

The literature is another concern all together. Our Big Book tells me to use helpful books for meditation. I have and do. This is personal suggestion which is often quoted as a reason to introduce other literature to our meetings. I cannot explain this to someone who does not wish to be reasonable. I have stated to many members there are many books in my library which I have found beneficial, but they did not become beneficial until I recovered from alcoholism. Prior to this it was just information with no meaning. No matter what meaning it gives me it still doesn’t give me the excuse to forget our purpose. As a newcomer I could not understand a spiritual concept if it hit me upside the head. Why should I think others who are new should.

Keep it simple is what Br. Bob said. I know nothing simpler than reading the Big Book from the beginning and doing what it instructs as you go along. Only then was I able to relate my understanding of spiritual ideas to others.

Conference Approved Literature is created by desire to grow AA as a business. Our Big Book was created as a tool for the individual to recover from Alcoholism. There is a difference

You guys are great,

Ed C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 11:06 AM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] outside literature

Hi Mae,

As I stated I am not against anyone passing on a book about anything to anyone I just don’t think we should be promoting them in AA. I am not an advocate of Conference Approved literature either, neither do I think the big Book should be owned by a corporation. I am opposed to much of the literature the Conference supposedly approves anyway. The Big Book was around before the Conference was even created. I had a lot of books that helped me understand a great deal and helped me to let go of old ideas about God but I would never bring them up in an AA meeting and all of them I read after a spiritual experience as a result of the Steps.

I believe our spiritual experience as a result of AA’s 12 Steps is independent of our spiritual beliefs anyway, like it states on page 75: “We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience.”

I don’t even like it when people read Grapevine articles in the meeting. Hell in my first year I had a hard time when it rained because I worked on power poles for many years and we just drank beer when it rained. As a solution of what to do with myself when it rained I started going to the race track and I got pretty good betting mudders but I would never offer that as a solution to some newcomer in an AA meeting. A lot of things helped us individually but let’s just try to keep AA, AA. But it may be too far gone for that now. I see very little of AA today as it was when I got sober, not to say it was perfect by any means, but there was still a lot of basic, Big Book, drunk on the couch AA then. Like my sponsor used to say; in the early days they had one meeting a week and lots of AA in between. Now they have three meetings a day and no AA in between.

I really wish there was something that once again would bring me to feel enthusiastic about AA and recommending it for a newcomer again. Heck many don’t even read the Big Book now. For me the Big Book was simply magical and my experiences used to go right along with those described in the book; page for page, Step by Step, and experience by experience. And it was simply a joy to have so many around me with the same experience. I also miss the magic in the meetings. Today a typical AA meeting around here is less exciting than the waiting rooms at the VA Hospital. Sorry if I don’t seem to up about the new proposals.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: mae

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:20 AM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] outside literature

I hear you Dennis, however there have been other books that have helped me in my sobriety.

I had many questions which were not answered by the Big Book. Questions about God and how to arrive at a concept of God.

Oldtimers gave me pamphlets....Acceptance by Vincent Collins, The Golden Key by Emmet Fox, and the 24 hour a Day Book. When I came in, these and other books were available. Not now. What I hear ad nauseum is the touting of "AA Conference Approved literature."

I may have said this earlier, if I have forgive me. While I was doing my clinicals at the long term care facility, a friend of mine was admitted. We were chatting one day and he mentioned he only relies on "AA approved literature." I looked at him and mentioned in the beginning there wasn't any BB, also the Bible is not conference approved. He agreed that I had a point.

Dennis my point is there are many books that have helped me solidify my belief in God. God is why I am sober. I had a spiritual experience that propelled me to the doors of AA.

mae

Dennis <gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I think we need to consider just what we are advocating when we offer all these books and literature within an AA environment or as a representative of AA. Many of these books are sectarian or at least have sectarian influences. AA is international and the ‘God as you understand God’ is where our fellowship should remain. Like it or not the Big Book has been accepted within AA as our main text that outlines our program of recovery. I really believe it is all we need for our fellowship. My only concern within AA has been with copyright and ownership for which solutions have been found and more are on the horizon. I do like David’s idea for a book that will be informative and educational for the fellowship and may aid in uplifting awareness as to the copyright related issues that has only weakened the spiritual power of the fellowship.

.

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1�/min.

#942

From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:05 pm
Subject: Re: outside literature

gratefuldenn...

Offline

Hi Mae,

As I stated I am not against anyone passing on a book about anything to anyone I just don�t think we should be promoting them in AA. I am not an advocate of Conference Approved literature either, neither do I think the big Book should be owned by a corporation. I am opposed to much of the literature the Conference supposedly approves anyway. The Big Book was around before the Conference was even created. I had a lot of books that helped me understand a great deal and helped me to let go of old ideas about God but I would never bring them up in an AA meeting and all of them I read after a spiritual experience as a result of the Steps.

I believe our spiritual experience as a result of AA�s 12 Steps is independent of our spiritual beliefs anyway, like it states on page 75: �We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience.�

I don�t even like it when people read Grapevine articles in the meeting. Hell in my first year I had a hard time when it rained because I worked on power poles for many years and we just drank beer when it rained. As a solution of what to do with myself when it rained I started going to the race track and I got pretty good betting mudders but I would never offer that as a solution to some newcomer in an AA meeting. A lot of things helped us individually but let�s just try to keep AA, AA. But it may be too far gone for that now. I see very little of AA today as it was when I got sober, not to say it was perfect by any means, but there was still a lot of basic, Big Book, drunk on the couch AA then. Like my sponsor used to say; in the early days they had one meeting a week and lots of AA in between. Now they have three meetings a day and no AA in between.

I really wish there was something that once again would bring me to feel enthusiastic about AA and recommending it for a newcomer again. Heck many don�t even read the Big Book now. For me the Big Book was simply magical and my experiences used to go right along with those described in the book; page for page, Step by Step, and experience by experience. And it was simply a joy to have so many around me with the same experience. I also miss the magic in the meetings. Today a typical AA meeting around here is less exciting than the waiting rooms at the VA Hospital. Sorry if I don�t seem to up about the new proposals.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: mae

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 5:20 AM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] outside literature

I hear you Dennis, however there have been other books that have helped me in my sobriety.

I had many questions which were not answered by the Big Book. Questions about God and how to arrive at a concept of God.

Oldtimers gave me pamphlets....Acceptance by Vincent Collins, The Golden Key by Emmet Fox, and the 24 hour a Day Book. When I came in, these and other books were available. Not now. What I hear ad nauseum is the touting of "AA Conference Approved literature."

I may have said this earlier, if I have forgive me. While I was doing my clinicals at the long term care facility, a friend of mine was admitted. We were chatting one day and he mentioned he only relies on "AA approved literature." I looked at him and mentioned in the beginning there wasn't any BB, also the Bible is not conference approved. He agreed that I had a point.

Dennis my point is there are many books that have helped me solidify my belief in God. God is why I am sober. I had a spiritual experience that propelled me to the doors of AA.

mae

Dennis <gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I think we need to consider just what we are advocating when we offer all these books and literature within an AA environment or as a representative of AA. Many of these books are sectarian or at least have sectarian influences. AA is international and the �God as you understand God� is where our fellowship should remain. Like it or not the Big Book has been accepted within AA as our main text that outlines our program of recovery. I really believe it is all we need for our fellowship. My only concern within AA has been with copyright and ownership for which solutions have been found and more are on the horizon. I do like David�s idea for a book that will be informative and educational for the fellowship and may aid in uplifting awareness as to the copyright related issues that has only weakened the spiritual power of the fellowship.

.

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1�/min.

#941

From: mae <mae56lindacan@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:20 pm
Subject: Re: outside literature

mae56lindacan

Offline

I hear you Dennis, however there have been other books that have helped me in my sobriety.

I had many questions which were not answered by the Big Book. Questions about God and how to arrive at a concept of God.

Oldtimers gave me pamphlets....Acceptance by Vincent Collins, The Golden Key by Emmet Fox, and the 24 hour a Day Book. When I came in, these and other books were available. Not now. What I hear ad nauseum is the touting of "AA Conference Approved literature."

I may have said this earlier, if I have forgive me. While I was doing my clinicals at the long term care facility, a friend of mine was admitted. We were chatting one day and he mentioned he only relies on "AA approved literature." I looked at him and mentioned in the beginning there wasn't any BB, also the Bible is not conference approved. He agreed that I had a point.

Dennis my point is there are many books that have helped me solidify my belief in God. God is why I am sober. I had a spiritual experience that propelled me to the doors of AA.

mae

Dennis <gratefuldennis@...> wrote:

I think we need to consider just what we are advocating when we offer all these books and literature within an AA environment or as a representative of AA. Many of these books are sectarian or at least have sectarian influences. AA is international and the �God as you understand God� is where our fellowship should remain. Like it or not the Big Book has been accepted within AA as our main text that outlines our program of recovery. I really believe it is all we need for our fellowship. My only concern within AA has been with copyright and ownership for which solutions have been found and more are on the horizon. I do like David�s idea for a book that will be informative and educational for the fellowship and may aid in uplifting awareness as to the copyright related issues that has only weakened the spiritual power of the fellowship.

.

Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1�/min.

#940

From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:25 am
Subject: Thank you

newkohl

Offline

Amazingly I've become alert to the fact that many folks have offered
countless prayers for me and my continuing well being.  Thank you.  Looks
like your prayers and the advocating of a few have been very effective....
at least in keeping me relatively conscious, rather than dead and hopelessly
in debt.  Thanks.

Notice I don't reference sanity.  That would be stretching things.

From a song my daughter taught me to enjoy:

Another turning point.  A fork stuck in the road
Don't grant to bother as to what direction to go
so make the best of this dance and don't ask why
it is not a question -- but a lesson learned in time
It is something unpredictable but in the end is right,
I hope you have the time of your life.

It is something unpredictable but in the end is right,
I hope you have the time of your life.

We've outgrown our structures that were created to help us survive as groups
in unity.   Our groups are now unified behind local ideas and intentions.

I think the decisions of the Alcoholic Foundation (1948) when Bill first
proposed the Conference structure were the best and most desirable opinions
of what is to become of AA.  Decentralization.

Who really helps alcoholics like you or me?  I've heard millions of chirping
clucking about unity and uniformity.  Folks look around.  Specially if you
are a USA citizen.  Our strength is not on our uniformity except in times of
great crisis, like massive terrorist attacks.  Our strength is in freedom.
Not only freedom of thought but of freedom of speech.

How can we ever have that if our corporate overlords don't allow us to
purchase the ground we toil?  Our local intergroups and cooperation's.

I'm not going to sit here and recite 300 pages of how and why AAWS Inc, The
AAGSB, and our conference have been played, serviced, and manipulated beyond
conspiracy theories.  I only ask a few folks open your eyes.

We are at a turning point.   There is a fork in the road, the arguments of
what direction to go is already debated.  There are those who advocate for
more of the same, others that for once, look and see, maybe the other fork
will actually save alcoholics as myself.  The road less traveled.  The road
of love, not politics.

I write this reluctantly as on one hand my survival of my current dilemmas
may go on for years.  Alternately, this may be my last effort to
communicate.  We need each other.  Not in unity.  Not in scruples. Not in
dogma, not in traditions or various rules although they are handy to divert
the real issues at hand.

Are we going to love one another?  And are we going to commit to the grace
we have received freely and reach out the hand, not of AA, but of God
Almighty (El Shaddai).

Don't grant to bother as to what direction to go -- so make the best of this
dance and don't ask why --it is not a question -- but a lesson learned in
time.  It is something unpredictable but in the end is right, I hope you
decide what is right.

Folks.  I'm not about money, property, or prestige.  Power is fun but so
easily obtained that it is boring even in concept.

We must remove the influence that drives our AA fellowship into dust, where
a real alcoholic literally cannot find a real AA meeting, even if mandated
illegally by some justice system.  They won't learn anything except what
they don't know that they learned.  Our 1948 resolutions were superseded by
Bill W.'s conference system agenda.

To every single sober member of the AA fellowship I offer a challenge.   In
the end, do you want a friend of our fellows, or a legacy of some kind?

We have plenty of folks worthy of legacy.  Clarence Snyder, Bill Wilson, Dr.
Bob Smith, Clancy I, Tom O., David A., I could increase the list ad
infinitum, but in every case I would relate to "legacy" it is not their
contributions to the AA General Service Board or their affiliates, it is to
Bill D., to Earnest K, to Louis H, to Abdule T.

Their legacy is a human legacy of love and caring -- it is what God
transferred from them and through them to those who still suffered.  In the
recognition of their love of being saved -- they passed on the message that
God is doing for them what they were unable to do for themselves.

I don't know what this year's conference theme is.  Don't rightly care that
much anymore, but I think we ought to consider that there is no place in AA
for trademarks, copyrights, stigmas, prosecution of our fellows, public
controversy, money, property, and prestige.

Still the only way to exterminate these ghastly atrocities is to engage them
at their level.

I quit.   Not to die.  Too many people love me for me to just roll over and
say, "I've had enough".

To those who may agree.  Give your thanks as is appropriate to those PEOPLE
who helped save you from the nightmares of your life and pass on their
legacy, not the rote line by line scribble of corporate manipulation.

Our "official AA" scribble is not holy.  What is holy is when a soul 'gets
it', the light inside them turns on.  And then the scribble we've etched on
paper preserve the message that God is doing for us what we are unable to do
for ourselves.

I better send now, because posts like this one usually make the draft folder
and never make it to the public forum.

But the one message I do want to convey, is thank each of you for all the
love you've poured in my direction.  You will likely never know the
tremendous impact you've made in my life.

Bless,
Love,
May God bless each of you,
Norm

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)

#939

From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:56 am
Subject: outside literature

gratefuldenn...

Offline

I think we need to consider just what we are advocating when we offer all these books and literature within an AA environment or as a representative of AA. Many of these books are sectarian or at least have sectarian influences. AA is international and the �God as you understand God� is where our fellowship should remain. Like it or not the Big Book has been accepted within AA as our main text that outlines our program of recovery. I really believe it is all we need for our fellowship. My only concern within AA has been with copyright and ownership for which solutions have been found and more are on the horizon. I do like David�s idea for a book that will be informative and educational for the fellowship and may aid in uplifting awareness as to the copyright related issues that has only weakened the spiritual power of the fellowship.

In the past many of these books were simply given/recommended by a sponsor in relation to a single person and not promoted as an AA group. Where will the line be drawn if we open up the floodgates of other literature often written for profit or by someone that doesn�t have a complete understanding of alcoholics or our recovery program? Shall we promote the Hindu guru�s book �The Mustered Seed� or the �Tibetan Book of the Dead� or �Tales of the Sufi�s� all of which were also recommended to me by AA members. How about the tons of alcohol recovery books by the expert professionals filled with psycho-babble but are read by many alcoholics in recovery as many are big sellers? Where will it end?

The notion that the Big Book is too complicated is nonsense. My grand-sponsor had a forth grade education and hardly knew how to read or write when he got sober. The book worked for him. I think the opposite is truer that some are way too smart to understand the book and our simple program of recovery.

We do not need more division in AA but more points of agreement.

Peace,

Dennis M.

#938

From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:42 am
Subject: Re: lit to newbies

gratefuldenn...

Offline

Hi Bruce;

One drawback about using dictionaries is they only reflect the norms of a given time and place and its accepted usage within a society. When a word is used enough by the ignorant or for propaganda purposes it gets redefined. A good example is how the term �liberal� has been redefined to be associated with the left when in reality it is a long way from the left, as it still supports the same system of government and economic system of their conservative counterparts, while the left is opposed to the system itself.

Your example is a good one of the same thing. All that is needed is to study the intention of the creators of these concepts and philosophies. Socialism was first used by those believing in a central base of power rather that be a central committee, a party or a state of which the latter history has shown to be the general outcome. They achieved the �state� by telling the common folks that it was temporary and �a withering away of the state� would soon follow but it never did as power always seeks to maintain itself. On the other hand the term �communism� (commune) was created by anarchist that didn�t believe in the state and was representative of power being decentralized to the local communities and interacting with each other as a federation of communes, (Such as the Paris Commune). This became known as �communist anarchy.� Decentralization of power down to the community and workplace through cooperation through industrial unionism (as opposed to trade unionism) is syndicalism or anarcho-syndicalism. And decentralization down to the individual is just plain anarchy.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: Bruce A. Johanson

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:42 AM

Subject: [GSOwatch] lit to newbies

For a one way trip to the dictionary:

http://www.onelook.com/

Gives lots of definitions from many various dictionaries; some, at least I have never heard before. It has Websters� Pocket Dictionary beat to hell!! (lol) Which reminds me of a little story of my days gone by. Back in my formative war years (late 60s) I was working in a grain mill shoveling grain out of box cars. Our foreman had a pocket dictionary. We got bsing politics one break and I said I was a socialist working in a capitalistic environment. He said Oh you�re a communist. So we had a very short discussion until I told him to look it up in his dictionary. One word definition of socialism: communism. I was pissed so I had him look up communism. You got it. One word definition: socialism. I was so infuriated that he was right because of that stupid little book I went back to work!

But as to handing stuff out; I have learned that it seems most don�t want anything more than what they have. Talk around the table about open mindedness and search for truth is basically just that: talk. I think complacency, another word I finally looked up, runs rather rampant. And I should note I am speaking just of the general area I am living in. If there is a newcomer off the street or by way of another treatment center I have to be careful if they get certain sponsors and even ask me for stuff. So it is not like I am on a street corner handing out leaflets, but I have to look for those who really seem to want it. I still get in trouble from time to time with my �Martin Luther� role but the funny thing is is that when I finally take the piece down off the bulletin board it usually has about ten to fifteen thumb tack holes in them so someone is reading them if only to get pissed off.

So I would guess we do what we can and we hope and pray that what we do is the right thing.

Bruce

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

Ed Wrote:

Another concept definition fellowship can be found here:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fellowship

Webster�s version.

We can hand out anything we wish. The little red book is a favorite of mine. I am not very successful in getting others to read them. Why would the new people in AA read this literature when the vast majority I know says meetings and fellowship are the way to go.

I looked up the words from your suggestion. Thanks! There are a lot of like minded references in the definitions. I remember reading a book which told me if I follow a certain set of guidelines the fellowship I crave would grow up around me. This has happened in many different ways and at different times.

Sometimes I wonder should I do the handing out, or should I do what I am doing and watch for what happens. Right now I do some handing out. The fellowship I see is a small subset of what is in today�s AA is called a group. There are many more in my �home group�. Within them there is a spiritual entity with which I am a part. New members come occasionally and some leave.

#937

From: "Ed Chambley" <echambley@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:51 pm
Subject: RE: lit to newbies

echambley

Offline

Cool, Thanks Bruce.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce A. Johanson
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 2:43 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [GSOwatch] lit to newbies

For a one way trip to the dictionary:

http://www.onelook.com/

Gives lots of definitions from many various dictionaries; some, at least I have never heard before. It has Websters’ Pocket Dictionary beat to hell!! (lol) Which reminds me of a little story of my days gone by. Back in my formative war years (late 60s) I was working in a grain mill shoveling grain out of box cars. Our foreman had a pocket dictionary. We got bsing politics one break and I said I was a socialist working in a capitalistic environment. He said Oh you’re a communist. So we had a very short discussion until I told him to look it up in his dictionary. One word definition of socialism: communism. I was pissed so I had him look up communism. You got it. One word definition: socialism. I was so infuriated that he was right because of that stupid little book I went back to work!

But as to handing stuff out; I have learned that it seems most don’t want anything more than what they have. Talk around the table about open mindedness and search for truth is basically just that: talk. I think complacency, another word I finally looked up, runs rather rampant. And I should note I am speaking just of the general area I am living in. If there is a newcomer off the street or by way of another treatment center I have to be careful if they get certain sponsors and even ask me for stuff. So it is not like I am on a street corner handing out leaflets, but I have to look for those who really seem to want it. I still get in trouble from time to time with my “Martin Luther” role but the funny thing is is that when I finally take the piece down off the bulletin board it usually has about ten to fifteen thumb tack holes in them so someone is reading them if only to get pissed off.

So I would guess we do what we can and we hope and pray that what we do is the right thing.

Bruce

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

Ed Wrote:

Another concept definition fellowship can be found here:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fellowship

Webster’s version.

We can hand out anything we wish. The little red book is a favorite of mine. I am not very successful in getting others to read them. Why would the new people in AA read this literature when the vast majority I know says meetings and fellowship are the way to go.

I looked up the words from your suggestion. Thanks! There are a lot of like minded references in the definitions. I remember reading a book which told me if I follow a certain set of guidelines the fellowship I crave would grow up around me. This has happened in many different ways and at different times.

Sometimes I wonder should I do the handing out, or should I do what I am doing and watch for what happens. Right now I do some handing out. The fellowship I see is a small subset of what is in today’s AA is called a group. There are many more in my “home group”. Within them there is a spiritual entity with which I am a part. New members come occasionally and some leave.

#936

From: "Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:42 pm
Subject: lit to newbies

pagan50

Offline

For a one way trip to the dictionary:

http://www.onelook.com/

So I would guess we do what we can and we hope and pray that what we do is the right thing.

Bruce

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

Ed Wrote:

Another concept definition fellowship can be found here:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fellowship

Webster’s version.

#935

From: mae <mae56lindacan@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:58 pm
Subject: Re: RE: Akron Manual and Detroit Pamphlet

mae56lindacan

Offline

wow.......this is great!!!

Lots of reading here. Thanks for the info.

mae

"Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...> wrote:

Mae and any others interested,

Akron manual, Akron Reader, Detroit Pamphlet:

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

.

Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.

#934

From: "Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:45 pm
Subject: RE: Akron Manual and Detroit Pamphlet

pagan50

Offline

http://hindsfoot.org/archives.html

Mae and any others interested,

Akron manual, Akron Reader, Detroit Pamphlet:

all can be obtained above….should have included that. Akron Manual was written in 1940 by Dr. Bob and others so that the average person or blue collar worker could understand. The Oxford Group and the majority of the early AAs were, as one AA historian put it, “up and out outers” as “opposed to down and outers” or more simply put college educated. I have only started using The Akron and Detroit stuff the last six months though I have known about them a lot longer. One has to scroll down the page a bit but they are there plus a whole treasure of material.

If I could get a copy or a pre-Hazleden Little Red Book I would consider printing them off for these guys as well but I think there would be a copyright issue involved. I am not sure as Collin, Webster and others updated that book almost every year. I do not think it would amount to that many pages printed on 8.5 X 11. Ebay just had a 1946 Little Red Book and with three days left to bid it was sitting at $150.00.

Sermon on the Mount and the Golden Books are also excellent but again they are copy written in full force.

Unfortunately a lot of times it does come down to money. Even though it is a small treatment center where I live I only give the Anon Press Study Guide to those who seem to want our Fellowship. They can get the 4^th edition from the center. I just ask that when they return to their towns they share with others in the Fellowship what I have given them so this stuff might get passed along. One can only hope and pray it is working.

Hope that helps and enjoy!

Living on little sleep today

Bruce

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mae
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 6:42 AM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity

Hi,

Okay, I have a question. Possibly two.

What is Akron Manual, The Akron Reader (both parts), and the The Detroit Pamphlet?

Where can I access these? Online?

I don't have a pre-Hazeldon Red Book. I do own The Greatest Thing in the World, Stools and Bottles, The Golden Key and Sobriety Without End by Father John Doe. Another book that I own is Sermon on the Mount by Emmet Fox.

And David, if there is anything I can do.....just let me know. I am not computer savvy like some here <wink> but I do know how to read and click links. lol.

mae

"Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@charter.net> wrote:

To all,

I have deleted many letters from my draft folder to this group the last few months. I have gotten inspirations to write from Dennis writing of the 60s to just seeing a post from Norm again. And yes, I do remember those days when if it wasnâ€™t for the FBI â€œSDSâ€ would never have had any dues paying members. And I had big plans for this summer of going to California with my 14 year old daughter to visit a few of you whom I have come to consider mentors and yet the anxiety has kept me confined to this boring little town. Thankfully I have managed to get my kid out of town to a couple camps and a trip. This month is the first month that I have had to really live the whole month on a check at the first of the month with nothing to fall back on and it will be a rough next few days. And life does go on. And so maybe this one will get sent.

Norm wrote lots of people are talking and I think more people are doing than talking. I recently sent an email to quite a few ! local AAs in my area that went in part as:

â€œI think I am beginning to believe more and more that instead of handing out Big Books, whether they be 4^th edition, 3^rd edition or even Anon Press Study Guides Editions perhaps we might be better off handing out to the newcomer the Akron Manual, The Akron Reader (both parts), Drummondsâ€™ The Greatest Gift in the World, The Detroit Pamphlet and a damn good dictionary! And just for good measure throw in a pre-hazleden Little Red Book or some of the Golden Books. I have been saying a lot recently that in the last year or so I have spent much more time reading the dictionary than I have the Big Book. Whether I am exaggerating or not I am not really sure? But after 28 years of! using the word â€œfellowshipâ€ I finally decided to look it up! Needless to say I was somewhat taken back. I then looked up the word meeting.

.

All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

__________ NOD32 1.1729 (20060828) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
http://www.eset.com

#933

From: "Ed Chambley" <echambley@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:00 pm
Subject: RE: Re: Anonymity

echambley

Offline

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fellowship

Hi Bruce,

Another concept definition fellowship can be found here:

Webster��s version.

Sometimes I wonder should I do the handing out, or should I do what I am doing and watch for what happens. Right now I do some handing out. The fellowship I see is a small subset of what is in today��s AA is called a group. There are many more in my ��home group��. Within them there is a spiritual entity with which I am a part. New members come occasionally and some leave.

I see many struggle with trying to make group unity. I wonder what is the difference between Unity and AA Unity? Trying to make unity is my self will thinking I can make the Fellowship what I want. I often forget all things of spiritual nature are results discipline. I cannot teach understanding, I can only share knowledge.

Ed C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce A. Johanson
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 2:11 AM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity

To all,

I have deleted many letters from my draft folder to this group the last few months. I have gotten inspirations to write from Dennis writing of the 60s to just seeing a post from Norm again. And yes, I do remember those days when if it wasn��t for the FBI ��SDS�� would never have had any dues paying members. And I had big plans for this summer of going to California with my 14 year old daughter to visit a few of you whom I have come to consider mentors and yet the anxiety has kept me confined to this boring little town. Thankfully I have managed to get my kid out of town to a couple camps and a trip. This month is the first month that I have had to really live the whole month on a check at the first of the month with nothing to fall back on and it will be a rough next few days. And life does go on. And so maybe this one will get sent.

Norm wrote lots of people are talking and I think more people are doing than talking. I recently sent an email to quite a few local AAs in my area that went in part as:

��I think I am beginning to believe more and more that instead of handing out Big Books, whether they be 4^th edition, 3^rd edition or even Anon Press Study Guides Editions perhaps we might be better off handing out to the newcomer the Akron Manual, The Akron Reader (both parts), Drummonds�� The Greatest Gift in the World, The Detroit Pamphlet and a damn good dictionary! And just for good measure throw in a pre-hazleden Little Red Book or some of the Golden Books. I have been saying a lot recently that in the last year or so I have spent much more time reading the dictionary than I have the Big Book. Whether I am exaggerating or not I am not really sure? But after 28 years of using the word ��fellowship�� I finally decided to look it up! Needless to say I was somewhat taken back. I then looked up the word meeting.

At any rate, as many of you can well imagine, this is just an small portion of my brain work and ass whole(rofl) opinion this week and last. Have a good weekend and God Bless!

Bruce A. Johanson

fel��low��ship [ f��ll�� sh��p ] (plural fel��low��ships)

noun

Definition:

1. sharing of experiences: a sharing of common interests, goals, experiences, or views

2. group of like-minded people: a group of people who share common interests, goals, experiences, or views

3. companionship: companionship or friendly association

4. similarity: membership in a group, or the sharing of characteristics with others

The reason I wrote this is because we have a treatment center in this town and those that get serious go to our meetings and hit with ��get a sponsor, read the Big Book,, go to meetings, ��until I had someone go through the Big Book with me��, and a sponsors job is to go through the Big Book with the newcomer.�� Many of these guys have told me they just get confused with the Big Book but when I have given them the Akron and Detroit stuff they start to get it. And a couple of the counselors are pretty good and let them Xerox the copies so I can cut down my printing cost as they also know I often give them the Anon Press study Guide. And when I give them that I emphasize them reading the manuscript but especially the stories as they are from the 1^st edition and those people found the solution without the 12 steps or the Big Book!! These ��clients�� seem to really like this stuff because they also get some history thrown in as well when we are talking about this stuff such. I tell them the story of the Loner (I believe) who sobered up on the manuscript and arrived on the Greyhound drunk. They get a chuckle and can understand why that story was removed! I have always found truth works best and this idea of sugar coating isn��t very good either.

I also included about 10 more dictionary definitions of fellowship and by far number 3 from above was NOT the greater amount. That is what surprised me!

We recently had a large conference where a AAWS official showed up; a treasurer I believe. I asked around a lot and some that I asked asked around and this apparently was a first for our area. I am in no way taking credit but I do know a lot of stuff is starting to get around including the correspondence that I post here awhile ago between an AA member, me and AAWS. The Charlie Bishop Paper is still traveling slowly but it is moving. And I am hearing that some in my area are, indeed, becoming disgruntled and displeased with New York and some of their answers. And I still am playing my Martin Luther role and now I have a small email list that I send to as well. I gave the Bishop Paper to our local ��warranties and charters�� person and he told me that they could have won the circle and triangle case. So I suggested he apply to the law firm in Washington DC (aaws) as they probably desperately need his services. (without laughing)

The main reason I wrote the above letter is because I go to a closed meeting where we had a two hatter who has decided he only has one hat now and sees no reason why he shouldn��t or can��t have a beer now or then. He further states he is there just for the fellowship. And according to the majority of the definitions (traditions aside) he is looking for the wrong fellowship because we have nothing in common, etc. The thing is; all but one that are members of that group are willing to say or do anything. I am not a member of that group though I do attend quite regular. And so I toy with the idea of opening my mouth because the biggest problem with this is even those new people can figure this guy out and their anonymity is kinda shot!

So I will keep doing what I am doing and if anyone has any goodies they want passed on send them to me and I will do my part!

In love and service,

Bruce A. Johanson

P.S. Hope it makes sense��am hitting send instead of draft

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 10:51 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity

On your books David, I'm a bit thin on the bribe kickbacks that were published in the local papers, but with enough work to catalogue historical data that can probably get procured I'm sure there are a dozen 'old' new controversies that would fuel contention around here for a decade.

Please do keep us updated. Some of us may have some info you don't have and versa. After all, that is at the core of how this group came to be a decade or so ago and is still a good source of sharing info. Let the info flow, if we discover we've made errors in some way, at least here we don't have to spend 15 years to think about making amends.

To the lurking AAGSB friends... Well, just let your gods know, "I'm back".... if only temporarily, so get the artillery out and book a few more spin doctors to the regional events. I've discovered folks here want to be heard too. Difference is, here they know the difference between the taste of truth and bullshit.

Finally, David, if you have publishing concerns, and all that, no sense re-inventing the wheel. Like AAWS we have archives and lots of shared experience. And I assure you that you are NOT alone. Lots of folks are talking of cutting the strings with AAWS publications and getting back to some basics like the Big Book and other books that were popular like "The greatest thing in the world" "The Golden Key" and other things that meant so much to some of us folks who remember when there was no real AA literature in fancy displays.

Bless,

Norm

#932

From: mae <mae56lindacan@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:42 am
Subject: RE: Re: Anonymity

mae56lindacan

Offline

Hi,

Okay, I have a question. Possibly two.

What is Akron Manual, The Akron Reader (both parts), and the The Detroit Pamphlet?

Where can I access these? Online?

And David, if there is anything I can do.....just let me know. I am not computer savvy like some here <wink> but I do know how to read and click links. lol.

mae

"Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...> wrote:

To all,

I have deleted many letters from my draft folder to this group the last few months. I have gotten inspirations to write from Dennis writing of the 60s to just seeing a post from Norm again. And yes, I do remember those days when if it wasn’t for the FBI “SDS” would never have had any dues paying members. And I had big plans for this summer of going to California with my 14 year old daughter to visit a few of you whom I have come to consider mentors and yet the anxiety has kept me confined to this boring little town. Thankfully I have managed to get my kid out of town to a couple camps and a trip. This month is the first month that I have had to really live the whole month on a check at the first of the month with nothing to fall back on and it will be a rough next few days. And life does go on. And so maybe this one will get sent.

Norm wrote lots of people are talking and I think more people are doing than talking. I recently sent an email to quite a few local AAs in my area that went in part as:

“I think I am beginning to believe more and more that instead of handing out Big Books, whether they be 4^th edition, 3^rd edition or even Anon Press Study Guides Editions perhaps we might be better off handing out to the newcomer the Akron Manual, The Akron Reader (both parts), Drummonds’ The Greatest Gift in the World, The Detroit Pamphlet and a damn good dictionary! And just for good measure throw in a pre-hazleden Little Red Book or some of the Golden Books. I have been saying a lot recently that in the last year or so I have spent much more time reading the dictionary than I have the Big Book. Whether I am exaggerating or not I am not really sure? But after 28 years of using the word “fellowship” I finally decided to look it up! Needless to say I was somewhat taken back. I then looked up the word meeting.

.

All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.

#931

From: "Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:10 am
Subject: RE: Re: Anonymity

pagan50

Offline

To all,

I have deleted many letters from my draft folder to this group the last few months. I have gotten inspirations to write from Dennis writing of the 60s to just seeing a post from Norm again. And yes, I do remember those days when if it wasn’t for the FBI “SDS” would never have had any dues paying members. And I had big plans for this summer of going to California with my 14 year old daughter to visit a few of you whom I have come to consider mentors and yet the anxiety has kept me confined to this boring little town. Thankfully I have managed to get my kid out of town to a couple camps and a trip. This month is the first month that I have had to really live the whole month on a check at the first of the month with nothing to fall back on and it will be a rough next few days. And life does go on. And so maybe this one will get sent.

Norm wrote lots of people are talking and I think more people are doing than talking. I recently sent an email to quite a few local AAs in my area that went in part as:

“I think I am beginning to believe more and more that instead of handing out Big Books, whether they be 4^th edition, 3^rd edition or even Anon Press Study Guides Editions perhaps we might be better off handing out to the newcomer the Akron Manual, The Akron Reader (both parts), Drummonds’ The Greatest Gift in the World, The Detroit Pamphlet and a damn good dictionary! And just for good measure throw in a pre-hazleden Little Red Book or some of the Golden Books. I have been saying a lot recently that in the last year or so I have spent much more time reading the dictionary than I have the Big Book. Whether I am exaggerating or not I am not really sure? But after 28 years of using the word “fellowship” I finally decided to look it up! Needless to say I was somewhat taken back. I then looked up the word meeting.

At any rate, as many of you can well imagine, this is just an small portion of my brain work and ass whole(rofl) opinion this week and last. Have a good weekend and God Bless!

Bruce A. Johanson

fel·low·ship [ féllō shìp ] (plural fel·low·ships)

noun

Definition:

1. sharing of experiences: a sharing of common interests, goals, experiences, or views

2. group of like-minded people: a group of people who share common interests, goals, experiences, or views

3. companionship: companionship or friendly association

4. similarity: membership in a group, or the sharing of characteristics with others

The reason I wrote this is because we have a treatment center in this town and those that get serious go to our meetings and hit with “get a sponsor, read the Big Book,, go to meetings, ‘until I had someone go through the Big Book with me’, and a sponsors job is to go through the Big Book with the newcomer.” Many of these guys have told me they just get confused with the Big Book but when I have given them the Akron and Detroit stuff they start to get it. And a couple of the counselors are pretty good and let them Xerox the copies so I can cut down my printing cost as they also know I often give them the Anon Press study Guide. And when I give them that I emphasize them reading the manuscript but especially the stories as they are from the 1^st edition and those people found the solution without the 12 steps or the Big Book!! These “clients” seem to really like this stuff because they also get some history thrown in as well when we are talking about this stuff such. I tell them the story of the Loner (I believe) who sobered up on the manuscript and arrived on the Greyhound drunk. They get a chuckle and can understand why that story was removed! I have always found truth works best and this idea of sugar coating isn’t very good either.

I also included about 10 more dictionary definitions of fellowship and by far number 3 from above was NOT the greater amount. That is what surprised me!

We recently had a large conference where a AAWS official showed up; a treasurer I believe. I asked around a lot and some that I asked asked around and this apparently was a first for our area. I am in no way taking credit but I do know a lot of stuff is starting to get around including the correspondence that I post here awhile ago between an AA member, me and AAWS. The Charlie Bishop Paper is still traveling slowly but it is moving. And I am hearing that some in my area are, indeed, becoming disgruntled and displeased with New York and some of their answers. And I still am playing my Martin Luther role and now I have a small email list that I send to as well. I gave the Bishop Paper to our local “warranties and charters” person and he told me that they could have won the circle and triangle case. So I suggested he apply to the law firm in Washington DC (aaws) as they probably desperately need his services. (without laughing)

The main reason I wrote the above letter is because I go to a closed meeting where we had a two hatter who has decided he only has one hat now and sees no reason why he shouldn’t or can’t have a beer now or then. He further states he is there just for the fellowship. And according to the majority of the definitions (traditions aside) he is looking for the wrong fellowship because we have nothing in common, etc. The thing is; all but one that are members of that group are willing to say or do anything. I am not a member of that group though I do attend quite regular. And so I toy with the idea of opening my mouth because the biggest problem with this is even those new people can figure this guy out and their anonymity is kinda shot!

So I will keep doing what I am doing and if anyone has any goodies they want passed on send them to me and I will do my part!

In love and service,

Bruce A. Johanson

P.S. Hope it makes sense…am hitting send instead of draft

"The truth never harmed anyone - but it frequently hurts when it conflicts with our old ideas. The truth will set you free - right after it makes you madder than hell."

Bless,

Norm

#930

From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:50 am
Subject: Re: Re: Anonymity

newkohl

Offline

Bless,

Norm

----- Original Message -----

From: daviddchenoweth

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Cc: daviddchenoweth

Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 12:37 AM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity

Hello All,

I've been lurking for a while,( actually each day for months). Your
continued effortsto carry our minority message is much appreciated
out here in San Diego. Thank you one and all.

And to our lurking GSC, GSB, GSO, AAWS and AAGV friends....
Go out there and round up some money ...God knows
your going to need it....You all shall reap that which you sow.

Gary....., I too have received a couple of funny letters in response to my
participation with this group. Questions regarding my ponderings over writing
a book. Thought about posting them. Then thought better of it and decided
not to.

I have decided to go ahead with the book at the behest of a few oldtimers
here in San Diego and the LA area. Generally, we are covering most
all the bases from International Convention bribes, (or inducements) to the
German & Mexico litigation to royalty scams, rotation issues, etc. Essentially
the wreckage created by our trusted service elite and some of our Fellowship's
sleepy headedness. I have hoped that it might become a group effort involving
members of this group. But, we will have to see what interest there is here
in that. We intend to published as an free E-book and a free print copy. The
research is taxing, and I haven't even tapped into the wealth of info that gathers
here. I expect it to be a 3 to 5 year project. As of this date we are 8 months
down the road. I'll keep you posted.

My admiration to all of you, anonymous or not.

Across the Bridge, David Chenoweth

On Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 03:59 PM, Gary Becktell wrote:

Bill,
Although I think of this group as similar to an any AA meeting, which
anyone may attend (by lying about being an alcoholic if necessary) and see
my face and probably find my last name, it is different in one way. About a
year-and-a-half ago I wrote about something that happened in our Area
Assembly. Within a day or so, I got a mail from our Delegate concerning that
report, and he is not a member of this group. So if there are any lurkers
reporting to anyone within the General Service Structure, your anonymity is
already blown.
The only Service (Business) meetings I know of in AA that are closed to
any alcoholics are at the GSC, GSB, GSO, AAWS and Grapevine.
Until that happened, I took claims of someone reporting our deal here to
the GSB et al with a grain of salt, no more. And your last name has appeared
several times that I know about. But rest assured that God lurks here all
the time and I'll bet God is pleased that you are more interested in the
truth than in being a 'lifetime' member of your Area Assembly and being
honored and admired for the rest of your sober life for two years of
'service' while others that have been in service for 30 years are not. God,
as I understand God, is like that. Honesty and integrity are more valued
than titles.

G

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill" <bbfreeaa@...>
To: <GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:48 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity

> Hi Nick,
> I totally agree with the "AS BILL SEES IT" article your referenced
> along with Dr Bob's comments in DB&GOT on being too anonymous.
> However, we are not as "closed" as you might think. Furthermore, some
> of us have "other reasons" to remain anonymous on this site and
> several here know what I mean. I am never anonymous with fellow AAs
> face to face or anywhere in my service work. But there are times and
> places to "proceed with caution".
> Bill
>
>
> --- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Gill" <nickgill@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> A closed Yahoo Group does not seem to me to qualify as "press, radio
> or films", and thus the display of last names can hardly be considered
> a breach of tradition.
>>
>> In spite of the source <grin>, I have always agreed with the following:
>>
>> "In some sections of A.A., anonymity is carried to the point of real
> absurdity. Members are on such a poor basis of communication that they
> don't even know each other's last names or where each lives." - As
> Bill Sees it, page 241
>>
>> Obviously, if people have concerns about their personal anonymity,
> then adjusting email so that it does not show a last name is a good
> idea - but for many of us, our last name is part of our email address,
> which makes the whole exercise rather pointless.......
>>
>> Yours in fellowship, love & service
>>
>> Nick
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Al Cooper
>> To: GSOwatch
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:24 PM
>> Subject: [GSOwatch] Anonymity
>>
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> For some reason, some of your/our last names are being displayed
> with the messages. The group wasn't set up that way, but Yahoo has
> apparently made some kind of change. I'm not particularly concerned
> for myself, but it's a BIG thing for others. What you might try is to
> "unsubscribe" from the group and then re-subscribe using your initial
> as a last name.
>>
>> Al C.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006
>
>

#929

From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:19 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anonymity

gratefuldenn...

Offline

Strange; I thought only non-alcoholics had last names, class A and class B. I think the Class A is for us; Alcoholic, and the Class B is for non-alcoholics; Boring. I think NY has it wrong.

Last name, that is a snap, I just call my Alanon sister; they know everything and they never forget.

The other day I was having an espresso at a coffee place and talking to my friend on my cell phone. I was frantically looking around and I told him I can�t find my phone. He started laughing and said; �you�re talking on it.� The sad thing about getting old is I have done that more than once.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: Paul S.

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 12:53 AM

Subject: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity

LOL

Easy to identificate.
For that I use my drivers licence.
If I remember where I put it

Everybodys anonymity is safe with me.
I just can�t remember.

Paul S. aka soberfinn

--- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, cherie <cher417@...> wrote:
>
> TEST...just posting cause I forgot my last name. "+)
>

#928

From: "Paul S." <soberfinn@...>
Date: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:53 am
Subject: Re: Anonymity

soberfinn

Offline

LOL

Easy to identificate.
For that I use my drivers licence.
If I remember where I put it

Everybodys anonymity is safe with me.
I just can�t remember.

Paul S. aka soberfinn

--- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, cherie <cher417@...> wrote:
>
> TEST...just posting cause I forgot my last name.   "+)
>

#927

From: cherie <cher417@...>
Date: Fri Aug 25, 2006 1:31 am
Subject: Re: Anonymity

cher449

Offline

TEST...just posting cause I forgot my last name. "+)

#926

From: daviddchenoweth <daviddchenoweth@...>
Date: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:37 am
Subject: Re: Re: Anonymity

david_chenoweth

Offline

Hello All,

I've been lurking for a while,( actually each day for months). Your
continued effortsto carry our minority message is much appreciated
out here in San Diego.  Thank you one and all.

And to our lurking GSC, GSB, GSO, AAWS and AAGV friends....
Go out there and round up some money ...God knows
your going to need it....You all shall reap that which you sow.

Gary....., I too have received a couple of funny letters in response to
my
participation with this group. Questions regarding my ponderings over
writing
a book. Thought about posting them. Then thought better of it and decided
not to.

I have decided to go ahead with the book at the behest of a few oldtimers
here in San Diego and the LA area.  Generally, we are covering most
all the bases from International Convention bribes, (or inducements) to
the
German & Mexico litigation to royalty scams, rotation issues, etc.
Essentially
the wreckage created by our trusted service elite and some of our
Fellowship's
sleepy headedness. I have hoped that it might become a group effort
involving
members of this group. But, we will have to see what interest there is
here
in that. We intend to published as an free E-book and a free print copy.
The
research is taxing, and I haven't even tapped into the wealth of info
that gathers
here. I expect it to be a 3 to 5 year project. As of this date we are  8
months
down the road. I'll keep you posted.

My admiration to all of you, anonymous or not.

Across the Bridge, David Chenoweth






On Wednesday, August 23, 2006, at 03:59 PM, Gary Becktell wrote:

> Bill,
> Although I think of this group as similar to an any AA meeting, which
> anyone may attend (by lying about being an alcoholic if necessary) and
> see
> my face and probably find my last name, it is different in one way.
> About a
> year-and-a-half ago I wrote about something that happened in our Area
> Assembly. Within a day or so, I got a mail from our Delegate concerning
> that
> report, and he is not a member of this group. So if there are any
> lurkers
> reporting to anyone within the General Service Structure, your
> anonymity is
> already blown.
> The only Service (Business) meetings I know of in AA that are closed to
> any alcoholics are at the GSC, GSB, GSO, AAWS and Grapevine.
> Until that happened, I took claims of someone reporting our deal here to
> the GSB et al with a grain of salt, no more. And your last name has
> appeared
> several times that I know about. But rest assured that God lurks here
> all
> the time and I'll bet God is pleased that you are more interested in the
> truth than in being a 'lifetime' member of your Area Assembly and being
> honored and admired for the rest of your sober life for two years of
> 'service' while others that have been in service for 30 years are not.
> God,
> as I understand God, is like that. Honesty and integrity are more valued
> than titles.
>
> G
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill" <bbfreeaa@...>
> To: <GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:48 PM
> Subject: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity
>
> > Hi Nick,
> > I totally agree with the "AS BILL SEES IT" article your referenced
> > along with Dr Bob's comments in DB&GOT on being too anonymous.
> > However, we are not as "closed" as you might think. Furthermore, some
> > of us have "other reasons" to remain anonymous on this site and
> > several here know what I mean. I am never anonymous with fellow AAs
> > face to face or anywhere in my service work. But there are times and
> > places to "proceed with caution".
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > --- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Gill" <nickgill@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> A closed Yahoo Group does not seem to me to qualify as "press, radio
> > or films", and thus the display of last names can hardly be considered
> > a breach of tradition.
> >>
> >> In spite of the source <grin>, I have always agreed with the
> following:
> >>
> >> "In some sections of A.A., anonymity is carried to the point of real
> > absurdity. Members are on such a poor basis of communication that they
> > don't even know each other's last names or where each lives." - As
> > Bill Sees it, page 241
> >>
> >> Obviously, if people have concerns about their personal anonymity,
> > then adjusting email so that it does not show a last name is a good
> > idea - but for many of us, our last name is part of our email address,
> > which makes the whole exercise rather pointless.......
> >>
> >> Yours in fellowship, love & service
> >>
> >> Nick
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Al Cooper
> >> To: GSOwatch
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:24 PM
> >> Subject: [GSOwatch] Anonymity
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> For some reason, some of your/our last names are being displayed
> > with the messages. The group wasn't set up that way, but Yahoo has
> > apparently made some kind of change. I'm not particularly concerned
> > for myself, but it's a BIG thing for others. What you might try is to
> > "unsubscribe" from the group and then re-subscribe using your initial
> > as a last name.
> >>
> >> Al C.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date:
> 8/22/2006
> >
> >
>
>

#925

From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:51 am
Subject: Re: Anonymity

newkohl

Offline

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the note. This group is a public news group forum that GSO keep a very close look at very regularly. If real shit comes up they will have to deal with, they usually hear it here before their secret interoffice memos.

I'm confident their current concern is low as some 'key' folks haven't been saying much lately. (If we aren't talking what is coming will probably be worse than talking)

Oddly, this newsgroup meets the criteria as "being published". (Press) For my own consciousness, I try to keep my last name out of "MY" posts, but everyone knows who I am, including folks in NY.

I also know that no sooner than some folks post they are getting letters or phone calls from NY.

You are right about closed groups. Unfortunately there is only one along the lines of a group like this one. It is relatively small and new members go though a nomination process, having been sponsored in by a member, and eventually a consensus is reached and the new applicant is invited to joint the group.

BlessNorm

----- Original Message -----

From: Nick Gill

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:22 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Anonymity

Hi All

A closed Yahoo Group does not seem to me to qualify as "press, radio or films", and thus the display of last names can hardly be considered a breach of tradition.

In spite of the source <grin>, I have always agreed with the following:

"In some sections of A.A., anonymity is carried to the point of real absurdity. Members are on such a poor basis of communication that they don't even know each other's last names or where each lives." - As Bill Sees it, page 241

Obviously, if people have concerns about their personal anonymity, then adjusting email so that it does not show a last name is a good idea - but for many of us, our last name is part of our email address, which makes the whole exercise rather pointless.......

Yours in fellowship, love & service

Nick

----- Original Message -----

From: Al Cooper

To: GSOwatch

Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:24 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] Anonymity

Hi All,

For some reason, some of your/our last names are being displayed with the messages. The group wasn't set up that way, but Yahoo has apparently made some kind of change. I'm not particularly concerned for myself, but it's a BIG thing for others. What you might try is to "unsubscribe" from the group and then re-subscribe using your initial as a last name.

Al C.

#924

From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:44 am
Subject: Re: Anonymity

gratefuldenn...

Offline

Actually this group is not a closed group and can be accessed by the general public. It is a newsgroup and in the past one of this group�s primary aim was to carry news and information about things in AA not available through the corporate entities like the litigations, distribution of books, meetings of our members with other groups in other countries, etc.

In the past we also had many members of other groups like the German BBSG who AAWS was trying to get their names for further litigations. They even tried to make a financial deal with Matthew if he would give them the names of other members which he refused and paid the money instead and even faced jail in Germany.

For many others that are active in General Service and who may aspire to positions to carry a minority opinion being known for affiliation with this group and its work can be general service suicide. We have some friends at our NY Headquarters that we received a lot of good information from that couldn�t openly affiliate with our minority opinion work until they retired. Others that did opened themselves to personal attacks and character assassination.

Another reason I used anonymity when I talk at an open meeting or speak as a guest at another meeting is for the spiritual anonymity of Tradition 12, which many forget about, rather than the anonymity of Tradition 11. It helps to remind me that what or who and how important I think I am in AA I am just another drunk. If anyone asked for my name or telephone number I would give it to them and there is nobody that hasn�t been able to get a hold of me if they wanted to. My old home group used to give newcomers the name and telephone numbers of members of the group.

Peace,

Dennis M.

----- Original Message -----

From: Nick Gill

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:22 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Anonymity

Hi All

A closed Yahoo Group does not seem to me to qualify as "press, radio or films", and thus the display of last names can hardly be considered a breach of tradition.

In spite of the source <grin>, I have always agreed with the following:

"In some sections of A.A., anonymity is carried to the point of real absurdity. Members are on such a poor basis of communication that they don't even know each other's last names or where each lives." - As Bill Sees it, page 241

Obviously, if people have concerns about their personal anonymity, then adjusting email so that it does not show a last name is a good idea - but for many of us, our last name is part of our email address, which makes the whole exercise rather pointless.......

Yours in fellowship, love & service

Nick

----- Original Message -----

From: Al Cooper

To: GSOwatch

Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:24 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] Anonymity

Hi All,

For some reason, some of your/our last names are being displayed with the messages. The group wasn't set up that way, but Yahoo has apparently made some kind of change. I'm not particularly concerned for myself, but it's a BIG thing for others. What you might try is to "unsubscribe" from the group and then re-subscribe using your initial as a last name.

Al C.

#923

From: "Gary Becktell" <gk@...>
Date: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:59 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Anonymity

garkb

Offline

Bill,
     Although I think of this group as similar to an any AA meeting, which
anyone may attend (by lying about being an alcoholic if necessary) and see
my face and probably find my last name, it is different in one way. About a
year-and-a-half ago I wrote about something that happened in our Area
Assembly. Within a day or so, I got a mail from our Delegate concerning that
report, and he is not a member of this group. So if there are any lurkers
reporting to anyone within the General Service Structure, your anonymity is
already blown.
     The only Service (Business) meetings I know of in AA that are closed to
any alcoholics are at the GSC, GSB, GSO, AAWS and Grapevine.
     Until that happened, I took claims of someone reporting our deal here to
the GSB et al with a grain of salt, no more. And your last name has appeared
several times that I know about. But rest assured that God lurks here all
the time and I'll bet God is pleased that you are more interested in the
truth than in being a 'lifetime' member of your Area Assembly and being
honored and admired for the rest of your sober life for two years of
'service' while others that have been in service for 30 years are not. God,
as I understand God, is like that. Honesty and integrity are more valued
than titles.


                         G



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill" <bbfreeaa@...>
To: <GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 1:48 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] Re: Anonymity


> Hi Nick,
>   I totally agree with the "AS BILL SEES IT" article your referenced
> along with Dr Bob's comments in DB&GOT on being too anonymous.
> However, we are not as "closed" as you might think.  Furthermore, some
> of us have "other reasons" to remain anonymous on this site and
> several here know what I mean.  I am never anonymous with fellow AAs
> face to face or anywhere in my service work.  But there are times and
> places to "proceed with caution".
>                                    Bill
>
>
> --- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Nick Gill" <nickgill@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi All
>>
>> A closed Yahoo Group does not seem to me to qualify as "press, radio
> or films", and thus the display of last names can hardly be considered
> a breach of tradition.
>>
>> In spite of the source <grin>, I have always agreed with the following:
>>
>> "In some sections of A.A., anonymity is carried to the point of real
> absurdity. Members are on such a poor basis of communication that they
> don't even know each other's last names or where each lives." - As
> Bill Sees it, page 241
>>
>> Obviously, if people have concerns about their personal anonymity,
> then adjusting email so that it does not show a last name is a good
> idea - but for many of us, our last name is part of our email address,
> which makes the whole exercise rather pointless.......
>>
>> Yours in fellowship, love & service
>>
>> Nick
>>   ----- Original Message -----
>>   From: Al Cooper
>>   To: GSOwatch
>>   Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2006 11:24 PM
>>   Subject: [GSOwatch] Anonymity
>>
>>
>>   Hi All,
>>
>>   For some reason, some of your/our last names are being displayed
> with the messages.  The group wasn't set up that way, but Yahoo has
> apparently made some kind of change.  I'm not particularly concerned
> for myself, but it's a BIG thing for others.  What you might try is to
> "unsubscribe" from the group and then re-subscribe using your initial
> as a last name.
>>
>>   Al C.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.5/425 - Release Date: 8/22/2006
>
>