FYI: The web site my.aamo.info was attacked again this weekend with the
hacker attempting to mimic the Royal Back of Scotland login screen in order
to steal private information.  We were informed and were able to disable
this attack before our hosting company shut down the web site.



On another note, I've done some work on http://my.aainfo.org.  I've left it
really easy to edit any page (until someone abuses it too terribly), so any
additions corrections or updates you make are appreciated.

Bless,
Norm

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:32 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] Inverted Triangle

It may be a good time for a group thinking about advising any
corporation on how it should be operating to first vote to adopt the
Traditions.... and then honor them. If every group action is examined
from the viewpoint of The Traditions diversions from our primary
purpose can be avoided, unity will be preserved and problems of money,
property and authority avoided..

The Headquarters for any AA group is itself as expressed in that
group's conscience.

It simply isn't possible for an AA group that has adopted the
Traditions to recognize anything other that itself as "Headquarters."
If a group feels that it must conform to follow some other
Headquarters, it has all the authority it needs to modify, edit,
delete, any/or all of the Traditions to fit its needs and should do so
so as to preserve group honesty.

The only thing inverted when an AA group defers to a corporation in NY
as "headquarters" is our Traditions. The use of a customer number
issued by a book vendor as a means of identification says a great deal
about the subordinate nature of the group to the entity issuing the
number.

Any AA group interaction with any non-group "service" outfit is
dealing, at best, with an aid to that AA group. A company using the AA
name as part of its corporate name is obviously operating outside of
The Traditions and as such is an "outside" entity.

Publications are an aid that can be used by an AA in carrying the
message. The publication does not carry the message, only an AA member
can carry the AA message. Used books work 100% as well as new books.
So do copies made on a copy machine, or printed on a bubble jet
printer using refilled inks (cost for a 4th edition Big Book printed
this way is less than $3...... pamphlets --- under a penny, 12x12
under a dollar --- these books are available free on-line for easy
printing).

There is no compelling reason to interact with a corporation using the
AA name for any purpose. There is a need for intergroups to coordinate
meeting schedules and phone services, but beyond that? I can't see a
vital need unmet by local supermarkets for group purchasing.

The endless desire for titles can be met by the groups - they can
confer any member: Delegate, General Manager, Trustee, Cardinal,
President, King, or even Pope. Groups can even reward members with
special tokens for simple sobriety accompanied by applause, accolades,
and cakes at special ceremonies.

Its those small things that are killing us.

John G.

BTW my Brother MF5840-cn, purchased from Office Max refurbished for
$39 delivered, prints 30 ppm - so it would take under 20 minutes to
print the entire 4th edition. A refilled cartridge of ink good for
3,000 prints is under $5.00.... ink for 500 pages = $0.85; 250 sheets
of paper at Office Max delivered free $1.68...... total cost of
printing Big Book on a bubble jet = $2.52.

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 8:11 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Inverted Triangle

The outside corporation known as Headquarters owns the Traditions.
The Traditions are unenforceable and provide disunity by the varied interpretations of them.
Nobody really abides by the traditions anyhoo! Just check em out with a personal tradition inventory. Its fun!
The big chief wrote the twelve points to insure our future and distributed them via the other outside corporation now known as Box 1980.
Everyone loves the big chief.
The concepts of confusion? penned by the big chief. also not worth the paper their written on.
The groups= 60,000 little fish
words on paper selling for millions, the dream of the big chief since day one.
did i mention sainthood for the big chief?
_____________________________________________________________

The pieces of the whole,(Like it or not, this is the reality we are experiencing) comprising the unity of AA are :
 
1.)Whatever Bill w. wrote, either real or imaginary, edited to be true or false, up down or sideways.

2.) Gso,Gsb,aaws,1980,GSC,trustees,

3) Dr. Bobs minnions(what?)

4) The fellowship of men and women=alcoholics,non-alcoholics, addicts, crackpots ad infinitum=groups( with or without identifying numbers of the beast),districts,areas.

5) God as you try to understand him in our group conscience divided by two million egos multiplied by gratitude for AA.

Got it?
Good!
What say ye? Shall we start rowing?
Greg


johng12fellow <johng12fellow@yahoo.com> wrote:

It may be a good time for a group thinking about advising any
corporation on how it should be operating to first vote to adopt the
Traditions.... and then honor them. If every group action is examined
from the viewpoint of The Traditions diversions from our primary
purpose can be avoided, unity will be preserved and problems of money,
property and authority avoided..

The Headquarters for any AA group is itself as expressed in that
group's conscience.

It simply isn't possible for an AA group that has adopted the
Traditions to recognize anything other that itself as "Headquarters."
If a group feels that it must conform to follow some other
Headquarters, it has all the authority it needs to modify, edit,
delete, any/or all of the Traditions to fit its needs and should do so
so as to preserve group honesty.

The only thing inverted when an AA group defers to a corporation in NY
as "headquarters" is our Traditions. The use of a customer number
issued by a book vendor as a means of identification says a great deal
about the subordinate nature of the group to the entity issuing the
number.

Any AA group interaction with any non-group "service" outfit is
dealing, at best, with an aid to that AA group. A company using the AA
name as part of its corporate name is obviously operating outside of
The Traditions and as such is an "outside" entity.

Publications are an aid that can be used by an AA in carrying the
message. The publication does not carry the message, only an AA member
can carry the AA message. Used books work 100% as well as new books.
So do copies made on a copy machine, or printed on a bubble jet
printer using refilled inks (cost for a 4th edition Big Book printed
this way is less than $3...... pamphlets --- under a penny, 12x12
under a dollar --- these books are available free on-line for easy
printing).

There is no compelling reason to interact with a corporation using the
AA name for any purpose. There is a need for intergroups to coordinate
meeting schedules and phone services, but beyond that? I can't see a
vital need unmet by local supermarkets for group purchasing.

The endless desire for titles can be met by the groups - they can
confer any member: Delegate, General Manager, Trustee, Cardinal,
President, King, or even Pope. Groups can even reward members with
special tokens for simple sobriety accompanied by applause, accolades,
and cakes at special ceremonies.

Its those small things that are killing us.

John G.

BTW my Brother MF5840-cn, purchased from Office Max refurbished for
$39 delivered, prints 30 ppm - so it would take under 20 minutes to
print the entire 4th edition. A refilled cartridge of ink good for
3,000 prints is under $5.00.... ink for 500 pages = $0.85; 250 sheets
of paper at Office Max delivered free $1.68...... total cost of
printing Big Book on a bubble jet = $2.52.

It may be a good time for a group thinking about advising any
corporation on how it should be operating to first vote to adopt the
Traditions.... and then honor them. If every group action is examined
from the viewpoint of The Traditions diversions from our primary
purpose can be avoided, unity will be preserved and problems of money,
property and authority avoided..

The Headquarters for any AA group is itself as expressed in that
group's conscience.

It simply isn't possible for an AA group that has adopted the
Traditions to recognize anything other that itself as "Headquarters."
If a group feels that it must conform to follow some other
Headquarters, it has all the authority it needs to modify, edit,
delete, any/or all of the Traditions to fit its needs and should do so
so as to preserve group honesty.

The only thing inverted when an AA group defers to a corporation in NY
as "headquarters" is our Traditions. The use of a customer number
issued by a book vendor as a means of identification says a great deal
about the subordinate nature of the group to the entity issuing the
number.

Any AA group interaction with any non-group "service" outfit is
dealing, at best, with an aid to that AA group. A company using the AA
name as part of its corporate name is obviously operating outside of
The Traditions and as such is an "outside" entity.

Publications are an aid that can be used by an AA in carrying the
message. The publication does not carry the message, only an AA member
can carry the AA message. Used books work 100% as well as new books.
So do copies made on a copy machine, or printed on a bubble jet
printer using refilled inks (cost for a 4th edition Big Book printed
this way is less than $3...... pamphlets --- under a penny, 12x12
under a dollar --- these books are available free on-line for easy
printing).

There is no compelling reason to interact with a corporation using the
AA name for any purpose. There is a need for intergroups to coordinate
meeting schedules and phone services, but beyond that? I can't see a
vital need unmet by local supermarkets for group purchasing.

The endless desire for titles can be met by the groups - they can
confer any member: Delegate, General Manager, Trustee, Cardinal,
President, King, or even Pope. Groups can even reward members with
special tokens for simple sobriety accompanied by applause, accolades,
and cakes at special ceremonies.

Its those small things that are killing us.

John G.

BTW my Brother MF5840-cn, purchased from Office Max refurbished for
$39 delivered, prints 30 ppm - so it would take under 20 minutes to
print the entire 4th edition. A refilled cartridge of ink good for
3,000 prints is under $5.00.... ink for 500 pages = $0.85; 250 sheets
of paper at Office Max delivered free $1.68...... total cost of
printing Big Book on a bubble jet = $2.52.

It may be a good time for a group thinking about advising any
corporation on how it should be operating to first vote to adopt the
Traditions.... and then honor them. If every group action is examined
from the viewpoint of The Traditions diversions from our primary
purpose can be avoided, unity will be preserved and problems of money,
property and authority avoided..

The Headquarters for any AA group is itself as expressed in that
group's  conscience.

It simply isn't possible for an AA group that has adopted the
Traditions to recognize anything other that itself as "Headquarters."
If a group feels that it must conform to follow some other
Headquarters, it has all the authority it needs to modify, edit,
delete, any/or all of the Traditions to fit its needs and should do so
so as to preserve group honesty.

The only thing inverted when an AA group defers to a corporation in NY
as "headquarters" is our Traditions. The use of a customer number
issued by a book vendor as a means of identification says a great deal
about the subordinate nature of the group to the entity issuing the
number.

Any AA group interaction with any non-group "service" outfit is
dealing, at best, with an aid to that AA group. A company using the AA
name as part of its corporate name is obviously operating outside of
The Traditions and as such is  an "outside" entity.

Publications are an aid that can be used by an AA in carrying the
message. The publication does not carry the message, only an AA member
can carry the AA message. Used books work 100% as well as new books.
So do copies made on a copy machine, or printed on a bubble jet
printer using refilled inks (cost for a 4th edition Big Book printed
this way is less than  $3...... pamphlets --- under a penny, 12x12
under a dollar --- these books are available free on-line for easy
printing).

There is no compelling reason to interact with a corporation using the
AA name for any purpose. There is a need for intergroups to coordinate
meeting schedules and phone services, but beyond that? I can't see a
vital need unmet by local supermarkets for group purchasing.

The endless desire for titles can be met by the groups - they can
confer any member:  Delegate, General Manager, Trustee, Cardinal,
President, King, or even Pope. Groups can even reward members with
special tokens for simple sobriety accompanied by applause, accolades,
and cakes at special ceremonies.

Its those small things that are killing us.

John G.

BTW my Brother MF5840-cn, purchased from Office Max refurbished for
$39 delivered, prints 30 ppm - so it would take under 20 minutes to
print the entire 4th edition. A refilled cartridge of ink good for
3,000 prints is under $5.00.... ink for 500 pages = $0.85; 250 sheets
of paper at Office Max delivered free $1.68...... total cost of
printing Big Book on a bubble jet = $2.52.

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 8:26 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Group Resolution

Hi Norm,
 Yes Norm that sounds good to me if you would upload/replace it with the newer version.
i like having the agenda item on there as a starting point. From what I have learned, "no action was taken" concerning the 2008 conference agenda item concerning book profits.
 Has anyone heard or gotten anymore info on this?

 On my computer i have it stored on two pages., so that i can print out one side(page) then re-insert into printer to print the second side(page with the resolution) on the reverse. Then the people at staples can print a bunch of two sided copies for me.
greg

Kohl <kohl@...> wrote:

Hi Greg:

    Would you like me to edit it (to two pages) and upload it to aamo.info/dl as I did (and replace) with the previous version?

 

    Another topic: For those of you who know I took a break from aamo.info web site work, -- during that break I played around on http://my.aainfo.org.  my.aainfo.org is totally unrelated to aamo.info as it has a sole purpose of providing AA contacts and AA information but I mention it hear because it is a "user driven" web site and folks here might want to have a look at it. 

    If info at my.aainfo.org isn't accurate -- whoever knows the accurate info is welcome to fix it or to email the correct info.  Also feel free to sign as a recent visitor or add your favorite link.

 

Bless,

Norm

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:00 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] Group Resolution

Hi everyone,
I uploaded a new edited version of the "Group Resolution Concerning
Book profits" document to the files section here.
Greg

Hi Greg:

    Would you like me to edit it (to two pages) and upload it to aamo.info/dl as I did (and replace) with the previous version?

 

    Another topic: For those of you who know I took a break from aamo.info web site work, -- during that break I played around on http://my.aainfo.org.  my.aainfo.org is totally unrelated to aamo.info as it has a sole purpose of providing AA contacts and AA information but I mention it hear because it is a "user driven" web site and folks here might want to have a look at it. 

    If info at my.aainfo.org isn't accurate -- whoever knows the accurate info is welcome to fix it or to email the correct info.  Also feel free to sign as a recent visitor or add your favorite link.

 

Bless,

Norm

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:00 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] Group Resolution

Hi everyone,
I uploaded a new edited version of the "Group Resolution Concerning
Book profits" document to the files section here.
Greg

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2008 8:00 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] Group Resolution

Hi everyone,
I uploaded a new edited version of the "Group Resolution Concerning
Book profits" document to the files section here.
Greg

Hi everyone,
I uploaded a new edited version of the "Group Resolution Concerning
Book profits" document to the files section here.
Greg

----- Original Message -----

From: girlaogblog

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 9:25 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] You have 1 new message!

You have 1 new message! Check the new message here:
http://cliffsty.blogspot.com

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1484 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 4:40 PM

You have 1 new message! Check the new message here:
http://cliffsty.blogspot.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Kohl

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:56 AM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

I have all the GSC Reports mentioned in the expanded 7th Tradition Challenge document that Dennis mentions.  I've made a note to myself to update that document some day with information from later GSC Reports. 

 

What I did notice in later GSC reports was that much of the outside sales is to the US Government, not to mention Hazelden and other literature merchants.  It was my impression that those sales exceed group and intergroup sales.  I haven't read all of the later GSC Reports (1997-2007) so I don't know what this 19% thing is about. 

 

John G makes an observation that has me shaking my head every time I think about it and that is how AAWS (bookseller) participates in various trade shows year around.  I've set up trade booths, that is usually an expensive undertaking, not to mention staffing these booths.  The question that comes to mind is if they aren't a for-profit-routine-business, what is all this trade show stuff about?  I know a little about booksellers and AAWS has a pretty captive audience in the members of AA who want the "official" AA message.  It seems to me that rather than suing book publishers (non profit) they ought to encourage carrying the message as that expands their customer base as was demonstrated in the German litigations (AAeV Sales actually increased during the time AABBSG was giving away free books, go figure!)

 

I've still have not heard any explanation I can swallow about the trade shows.

 

Bless,

Norm

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:05 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

If you look at the pie charts on the 7th Tradition document that Norm has posted:
http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/7th-challenge.pdf  you will notice that it states “the following are the original documents scanned and converted by OCR for legibility.” The documents are from AAWS and are their own reports.

 

The specific document with the pie chart is titled:
THE CHALLENGE OF THE SEVENTH TRADITION
A.A. World Services

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Becktell

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:10 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    No one can really know with many of the sales as to who is a member and who isn't. But if a larger # than what they claim is used, the AAWS arguments will turn toward that #. Besides, there is nothing wrong with giving it as their #. 5% would be too much. Their claim of 19% is easy to figure. About 1/2 of lit sales are cost, so 9 1/2 % of lit sales would be the figure of outside contributions, and this according to the AAWS numbers. In 2006 that was about $14,000,000 in sales. That's about $1.33 million in outside contributions.

    Why use claims that can't be proven. I always say use their own stuff to hang 'em. They can't deny what they've printed and distributed.

 

                                                                                    G

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:43 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi dennis,
I just lost a post I sent, oh well.
This is from our delegates report in April:
_____________________________________

Publications – Total distribution of all books in 2007
was 2,105,628, up 8% from the same period in 2006,
when 1,951,938 units were distributed. In 2007, total
A.A. purchases amounted to 1,697,035 units, while
non-A.A.s accounted for 408,593 units, or 19%. For
the year 2007, 1,127,310 Big Book units (all Editions)
were distributed, compared with 1,067,191 during the
same period in 2006.
______________________________________________

AAWS is admitting to only 19% for non AA sales. My 25%  estimate is from using the 408,593 units sold to non AA's as the majority of those sales probably being Big Books. Maybe I should stick with 19% that AAWS agrees to? I am cautious about using the 65% or 90% without more , for lack of a better word, proof.
As for the Challenge of the 7th tradition, it might not be seen as reliable to use those "estimates" from 17 years ago.
Please let me know what you think, your guidance is invaluable.

greg
Dennis <gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hi Greg;

 

I really like your Group Resolution. Just one fact about outside book sales.

 

You wrote:
“GSO has determined that 25% of book profits come from outside the fellowship…”

 

In the Challenge of the 7th Tradition on the pie chart of literature sales these past thirty years it estimates outside income from sales at 65% in 1991. This has grown much since then so I think a conservative estimate today would be over two-thirds of sales is from outside the fellowship. The 1991 estimate was near two-thirds already. It may be higher as John posted about 90%. But I think over two-thirds is a safe estimate.

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:02 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 11:05 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

If you look at the pie charts on the 7th Tradition document that Norm has posted:
http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/7th-challenge.pdf  you will notice that it states “the following are the original documents scanned and converted by OCR for legibility.” The documents are from AAWS and are their own reports.

 

The specific document with the pie chart is titled:
THE CHALLENGE OF THE SEVENTH TRADITION
A.A. World Services

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Becktell

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:10 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    No one can really know with many of the sales as to who is a member and who isn't. But if a larger # than what they claim is used, the AAWS arguments will turn toward that #. Besides, there is nothing wrong with giving it as their #. 5% would be too much. Their claim of 19% is easy to figure. About 1/2 of lit sales are cost, so 9 1/2 % of lit sales would be the figure of outside contributions, and this according to the AAWS numbers. In 2006 that was about $14,000,000 in sales. That's about $1.33 million in outside contributions.

    Why use claims that can't be proven. I always say use their own stuff to hang 'em. They can't deny what they've printed and distributed.

 

                                                                                    G

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:43 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi dennis,
I just lost a post I sent, oh well.
This is from our delegates report in April:
_____________________________________

Publications – Total distribution of all books in 2007
was 2,105,628, up 8% from the same period in 2006,
when 1,951,938 units were distributed. In 2007, total
A.A. purchases amounted to 1,697,035 units, while
non-A.A.s accounted for 408,593 units, or 19%. For
the year 2007, 1,127,310 Big Book units (all Editions)
were distributed, compared with 1,067,191 during the
same period in 2006.
______________________________________________

AAWS is admitting to only 19% for non AA sales. My 25%  estimate is from using the 408,593 units sold to non AA's as the majority of those sales probably being Big Books. Maybe I should stick with 19% that AAWS agrees to? I am cautious about using the 65% or 90% without more , for lack of a better word, proof.
As for the Challenge of the 7th tradition, it might not be seen as reliable to use those "estimates" from 17 years ago.
Please let me know what you think, your guidance is invaluable.

greg
Dennis <gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hi Greg;

 

I really like your Group Resolution. Just one fact about outside book sales.

 

You wrote:
“GSO has determined that 25% of book profits come from outside the fellowship…”

 

In the Challenge of the 7th Tradition on the pie chart of literature sales these past thirty years it estimates outside income from sales at 65% in 1991. This has grown much since then so I think a conservative estimate today would be over two-thirds of sales is from outside the fellowship. The 1991 estimate was near two-thirds already. It may be higher as John posted about 90%. But I think over two-thirds is a safe estimate.

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:02 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: Gary Becktell

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:10 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    No one can really know with many of the sales as to who is a member and who isn't. But if a larger # than what they claim is used, the AAWS arguments will turn toward that #. Besides, there is nothing wrong with giving it as their #. 5% would be too much. Their claim of 19% is easy to figure. About 1/2 of lit sales are cost, so 9 1/2 % of lit sales would be the figure of outside contributions, and this according to the AAWS numbers. In 2006 that was about $14,000,000 in sales. That's about $1.33 million in outside contributions.

    Why use claims that can't be proven. I always say use their own stuff to hang 'em. They can't deny what they've printed and distributed.

 

                                                                                    G

 

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:43 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi dennis,
I just lost a post I sent, oh well.
This is from our delegates report in April:
_____________________________________

Publications – Total distribution of all books in 2007
was 2,105,628, up 8% from the same period in 2006,
when 1,951,938 units were distributed. In 2007, total
A.A. purchases amounted to 1,697,035 units, while
non-A.A.s accounted for 408,593 units, or 19%. For
the year 2007, 1,127,310 Big Book units (all Editions)
were distributed, compared with 1,067,191 during the
same period in 2006.
______________________________________________

AAWS is admitting to only 19% for non AA sales. My 25%  estimate is from using the 408,593 units sold to non AA's as the majority of those sales probably being Big Books. Maybe I should stick with 19% that AAWS agrees to? I am cautious about using the 65% or 90% without more , for lack of a better word, proof.
As for the Challenge of the 7th tradition, it might not be seen as reliable to use those "estimates" from 17 years ago.
Please let me know what you think, your guidance is invaluable.

greg
Dennis <gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hi Greg;

 

I really like your Group Resolution. Just one fact about outside book sales.

 

You wrote:
“GSO has determined that 25% of book profits come from outside the fellowship…”

 

In the Challenge of the 7th Tradition on the pie chart of literature sales these past thirty years it estimates outside income from sales at 65% in 1991. This has grown much since then so I think a conservative estimate today would be over two-thirds of sales is from outside the fellowship. The 1991 estimate was near two-thirds already. It may be higher as John posted about 90%. But I think over two-thirds is a safe estimate.

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:02 PM

-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kohl
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:06 AM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

I edited the letter and resolution a little to get it to fit on 2 pages- Then put it in a PDF file for easy download and printing. http://aamo.info/dl/Group_Resolution_Book_Profits.pdf

 

You can also access that file from the downloads page under "FREE AA related for Download" http://aamo.info/dl/

 

As for the Challenge of the 7th Tradition a full (27 page) report is at http://gsowatch.aamo.info/aaws/7th-challenge.pdf.  It contains mostly information directly from AAWS.  In this extended version of the report you can find the pie chart Dennis refers to. 

 

Essentially what AAWS did with the Challenge of the 7th Tradition is that they found a passage in Bill's essays in the Concepts and declared they didn't have a problem.

 

Bless,

Norm

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 7:40 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

I think that the 'group resolution' that Greg posted is something Norm may want to put on the website so members can download and print it for their groups. Just a thought.

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:02 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:43 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi dennis,
I just lost a post I sent, oh well.
This is from our delegates report in April:
_____________________________________

Publications – Total distribution of all books in 2007
was 2,105,628, up 8% from the same period in 2006,
when 1,951,938 units were distributed. In 2007, total
A.A. purchases amounted to 1,697,035 units, while
non-A.A.s accounted for 408,593 units, or 19%. For
the year 2007, 1,127,310 Big Book units (all Editions)
were distributed, compared with 1,067,191 during the
same period in 2006.
______________________________________________

AAWS is admitting to only 19% for non AA sales. My 25%  estimate is from using the 408,593 units sold to non AA's as the majority of those sales probably being Big Books. Maybe I should stick with 19% that AAWS agrees to? I am cautious about using the 65% or 90% without more , for lack of a better word, proof.
As for the Challenge of the 7th tradition, it might not be seen as reliable to use those "estimates" from 17 years ago.
Please let me know what you think, your guidance is invaluable.

greg
Dennis <gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Hi Greg;

 

I really like your Group Resolution. Just one fact about outside book sales.

 

You wrote:
“GSO has determined that 25% of book profits come from outside the fellowship…”

 

In the Challenge of the 7th Tradition on the pie chart of literature sales these past thirty years it estimates outside income from sales at 65% in 1991. This has grown much since then so I think a conservative estimate today would be over two-thirds of sales is from outside the fellowship. The 1991 estimate was near two-thirds already. It may be higher as John posted about 90%. But I think over two-thirds is a safe estimate.

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 6/2/2008 7:02 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 7:40 PM

Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

I think that the 'group resolution' that Greg posted is something Norm may want to put on the website so members can download and print it for their groups. Just a thought.

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

Hi Greg;

 

I really like your Group Resolution. Just one fact about outside book sales.

 

You wrote:
“GSO has determined that 25% of book profits come from outside the fellowship…”

 

In the Challenge of the 7th Tradition on the pie chart of literature sales these past thirty years it estimates outside income from sales at 65% in 1991. This has grown much since then so I think a conservative estimate today would be over two-thirds of sales is from outside the fellowship. The 1991 estimate was near two-thirds already. It may be higher as John posted about 90%. But I think over two-thirds is a safe estimate.

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 4:08 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

Gary....

I do not consider Delegates to be "nincompoops," or AA members as
"rabble" in fact the use of pejorative put down words do not appear in
my posts. Nor do I think that Delegates are less than hard working.
Unfortunately we differ about payment...... those Delegates employed
by owners of the Conference, AAWS Inc. and its affiliates, are paid.
Mankind works for its food and lodging, so in a sense, all the
Delegates are paid. Some Delegates get paid more than others. Some
serve longer than others.

Your old ideas about rich people and poor people being given the
opportunity to "serve," via expense reimbursement may be a good one,
although its difficult to discern relevance beyond coffee, cake, and
cleaning supplies. Many groups do reimburse their members for
extraordinary expenses incurred while in the service of the group.
AAWS Inc. pays/reimburses expenses in the same way, except that they
are a business, not a group. The primary non-printing expenses of AAWS
Inc. are for trade show participation - for selling its products. If a
group wishes to reimburse its member for any purpose, even in addition
to AAWS Inc. payments - why not? But what happens when that
reimbursement endorses and supports an outside entity that is not AA
and uses the AA name as part of its corporate name? What about those
pesky Traditions? This does effect other groups. What is the effect of
AA members accepting "service" money that is derived from the sale of
merchandise to non-AA members?

What is the actual purpose of AAWS Inc.? I think the answer lies in
its Traditions - the ones AAWS Inc. own via copyright - "management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them." There is nothing secret about who the primary support
of AAWS Inc. is, and it isn't the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous.
It does not matter who it is, what does matter is that it is not us.
The payments by AAWS Inc. to reimburse "unpaid" Delegates for their
expenses is a payment made for corporate purposes to serve those who
financially support AAWS Inc. --- That is NOT us.

The argument could be made that AA groups do send "voluntary"
contributions to AAWS Inc...... AAWS Inc. claims that 1/4 of AA groups
do send such support. That support amounts to less than 1/4 of AAWS
Inc. expenditures. And yes, all expenses including printing must be
included in this computation by anyone thinking that AAWS Inc.s
publishing income somehow represents a voluntary contribution when 90%
of that income is from non-AA members.

I am pleased that you, as I, do not hate AAWS Inc. AAWS Inc. is merely
a secondary aid to GSBofAA Inc (so says their certificate of
incorporation), and as such is acting ethically and legally on behalf
of its owners (not us). AAWS Inc.'s actions do not disgust or surprise
me. They have a non binding customer advisory organization that does
what advisors do -- and they are willing to pay the way of its
leaders, they even assign paid staff to help it along and sprinkle its
events with self created star type titles of specialness. Heck, this
is good old fashioned marketing, nothing wrong with it.

My main point is that AAWS, AAGv and their owner GSBofAA Inc. are not
us, they are not AA. They are an outside entity, using our name, and
their purpose is to do the will of those who financially support them.

If there is something that I dislike it is the activity of AA members
who think AAWS Inc. is somehow AA. Worse its the willingness of some
AA groups to squander their integrity by engaging in the unnecessary
business of selling anything.

Those Delegates on the AAWS Inc. payroll are doing what any publisher
expects its staff to do -- they sell. AAWS Inc. employees when not
doing "AA" Conventions (they do a couple every week) man trade shows
for the book seller, prison/detention, education, medical and recovery
industries. Their job is sales.

I think that my view of AA differs from yours. That's ok. There is no
need to denigrate AA's, using the special AAWS Inc. title of Delegate,
as "nincompoops," or as less than "hard working," nor is their any
benefit in assigning those descriptions to others.

AA's around the world have created and tried to give away AA
literature - AAWS Inc. attempted to jail or bankrupt those involved.
AAWS Inc. does not give away free literature in those places that you
mentioned, rather it grants select individuals exclusive territorial
franchises to print and sell literature while delivering on its
implicit promise to prosecute any usurpers.

For those heroes who sacrificed their names and reputations trying to
change AAWS Inc. my hat is off and my admiration is endless. They
showed us what cannot be done.

Its ok to accuse me of wisdom.

Wisdom is the end product of learning what we can and cannot change.
We, the AA Fellowship cannot change AAWS Inc., it isn't us and it
isn't ours; we can change our relationship to it.

I cannot support your ideas on discarding the Traditions. The
Traditions although owned by AAWS Inc. are sufficient for the process
of change. All we need do is to follow them.

John G.

--- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Becktell" <gk@...> wrote:
>
>     It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any
group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys
books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in
business. They simply collect the money from a different source than
gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and
distribute books.
>      Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in
the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions
lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do
I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments
fail to convince me.
>     I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by
their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an
earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are
nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply
reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd
be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some
real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act,
done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and
hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his
caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not
stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T
are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see
them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought
well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those
efforts.
>     Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to
leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some
invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal
life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups
around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in
India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America
and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in
Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or
more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot
afford to give away books.
>     And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do
anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by
spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that
Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is
allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is
difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only
truth available.
>     Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.
>
>

>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: johng12fellow

For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 5:11 AM

Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

I can't seem to get the hyperlink deal to work, but the file "Group Resolution" is in the file section.
Greg

Greg <Greg@soberalcoholic.com> wrote:

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

Hi Everyone,
I uploaded a two page file here, for use at the group level to inform  groups about  the use of  Book Profits to finance headquarters, with a resolution that can be voted on by a group.
Please let me know what you think.  Group Resolution

Greg

"Al C." <coopera@t-net.ne.jp> wrote:

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

You CAN hate the action without hating the one doing the act or actions.  I HATE what the corporation does in the name of OUR fellowship.  'Tis been said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions (I made him drink that bleach because he had such a dirty mouth!).  The asphalt is being paid for by unwitting, unknowing, or WORST, uncaring members.  HP willing, I'll NEVER buy anything else that was produced by the corporation that has brought AA into public controversy, and MUCH, MUCH worse.

 

Has also been said (paraphrased here) that "All it takes for tyranny to succeed, is for good men (read this as also women) to do NOTHING.

 

G' Bless,

 

Al C.

---

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 14:41PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

    It could easily be said, given the argument below, that any group that takes donations from one bunch of individuals and buys books and gives them to another bunch of individuals is also in business. They simply collect the money from a different source than gets the books. It is a circular argument and condemns all who buy and distribute books.

     Yes, John, I study and do my best to follow the principles in the 12 Traditions. I probably fit your use of the term, 'Traditions lover'. I make mistakes and sometimes I don't know what to do. But do I must so I do the best I can, most of the time. But your arguments fail to convince me.

    I do not hate AAWS. I am disgusted but not too surprised by their selfish actions, but I do not hate them. In reference to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that all Delegates are nincompoops. I know they are not paid for their work, simply reimbursed for their expenses. If they had to pay their own way you'd be arguing that only the rich would be Delegates. And we have had some real AA heroes that have fought hard for AAWS to clean up its act, done while they were Delegates. My own mentor, Jess L, fought long and hard for what he believed in and paid a tremendous price for his caring. He was not paid by AAWS for his efforts, even they are not stupid enough to pay their enemies. Dennis B, Jake & Jude, and Jimmy T are all folks that fought the power of AAWS and lost. I hate to see them demeaned because they were Delegates. Our own Bill N has fought well and hard as a Delegate and we have seen some results of those efforts.

    Rabble rousing is an old method of mine that I have tried to leave behind. I wish you would also. You have taught me some invaluable lessons that have changed my understandings in my personal life for which I am very grateful. But your assumption that all groups around the world can give away books is hogwash. Tell them that in India, Kenya and Tasmania. Tell them that in parts of South America and Asia. It just isn't true. In most of the AA I know about in Mexico, the individuals don't even own books. The group may own one or more, and the AA program is passed on by word of mouth. They cannot afford to give away books.

    And as far as the Fourth Tradition being a license to do anything, it is. Every group has the right to kill alcoholics by spreading a word that doesn't work. But when we jettison that Tradition, some outfit like AAWS may well be the arbiter of what is allowed and then we will die. The wisdom of allowing 'heresy' is difficult for some to understand, but sometimes the heresy is the only truth available.

    Come on John, we need your wisdom, not your invective.

 

                                                                                                    G

 

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM

----- Original Message -----

From: johng12fellow

To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 7:19 PM

Subject: [GSOwatch] For Tradition Lovers

Each post starts with the compelling reminder that each writer
sincerely believes that they love the Traditions, and that they
observe and honor them. Next is the assumption that the writer is
honestly reflecting their own views.

I think this delusion is close to universal. Yet a delusion it
remains. It matters little how an individual feels or believes when
they engage in activities that those beloved Traditions state will
kill most of us in their non-observance.

The Traditions do not state "as convenient" or "sometimes." They do
quite emphatically state that if we fail to stay together, then most
of us will die.

It matters not a whit what a group thinks or feels it is doing when it
engages in the purchase of anything with a subsequent sale of anything
for any purpose at any rate of profit or loss - it is a business
transaction -- and in many places subject to local sales taxes -
regardless of profit, or non-profit. Selling is selling is business.
Of course any group is free to change the Traditions to suit
themselves. The extent that they change their poster or recitation of
the Traditions speaks loud to the honesty of the group.

In the far ago past there may have been a compelling reason for groups
selling the Big Book, a practice that began before the Traditions, but
this is 2008.... a group can give away whatever it wants --- no limits
- such an act would not be a business transaction. Just because a
group may have been selling Big Books for the past 69 years is no
reason to continue the practice. I just can't imagine any Tradition
lover/respecter deciding that the admonition to not go into business
can be eliminated by convenience, feelings, or "we always have." Nor
can I imagine any productive member of our sober society endorsing tax
evasion.

Almost all of us (45 minute drive for me) have access to a bookstore,
everyone reading this has access to a computer --- any book, even
those published by AAWS Inc., is readily available. Yes, it will cost
more --- just what is the $ threshold for threatening your own life?
How about the lives of "most" of your AA friends? Or is that Tradition
nonsense?

Is there really some way to read Tradition 4 that makes it ok to put
our collective lives on the line? For any reason? Does autonomy extend
to the lives of others? Are those AAs attending meetings where stuff
is sold complicit in the tax guilt? Are they the straw that will break
the back of AA? Is that groups business activity a affecting other
groups or AA as a whole?

What if the Traditions mean what they say? Or is it just when
convenient for those who call themselves "Tradition Lovers."

There is very little wiggle room in the Traditions. Is there any
possible way that an AA member can associate in any way with a
corporation that uses our AA name?

AA in the U.S. has been in a steady decline since 1988 --- the
individual AA straws being lain on our downed body are like
footballers "piling on" a downed player - an illegal act in football -
but practiced everyday by those endorsing/supporting/participating
with, AA Inc. When the practice of football piling on ended - football
flourished. For us the steady decline is marked by the piling on by
AAs endorsing/supporting AA Inc.

We deserve better than this.

Our A.A. experience has taught us that:

1.) Each member of Alcoholics Anonymous is but a small part of a great
whole. A.A. must continue to live or most of use will surely die.
Hence our common welfare comes first. But individual welfare follows
close afterward.

2.) For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority-a loving
God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.

3.) Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism.
Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.
membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three
alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A.
Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.

4.) With respect to its own affairs, each A.A. group should be
responsible to no other authority than its own conscience. But when
its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also, those groups
ought to be consulted. And no group, regional committee, or individual
should ever take any action that might greatly affect A.A. as a whole
without conferring with the Trustees of the General Service Board. On
such issues our common welfare is paramount.

5.) Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity
having but one primary purpose-that of carrying its message to the
alcoholic who still suffers.

6.) Problems of money, property, and authority may easily divert us
from our primary spiritual aim. We think, therefore, that any
considerable property of genuine use to A.A. should be separately
incorporated and managed, thus dividing the material from the
spiritual. An A.A. group, as such, should never go into business.
Secondary aids to A.A., such as clubs or hospitals which require much
property or administration, ought to be incorporated and so set apart
that, if necessary, they can be freely discarded by the groups. Hence
such facilities ought not to use the A.A. name. Their management
should be the sole responsibility of those people who financially
support them. For clubs, A.A. managers are usually preferred. But
hospitals, as well as other places of recuperation, ought to be well
outside A.A.-and medically supervised. While an A.A. group may
cooperate with anyone, such cooperation ought never go so far as
affiliation or endorsement, actual or implied. An A.A. group can bind
itself to no one.

7.) The A.A. groups themselves ought to be fully supported by the
voluntary contributions of their own members. We think that each group
should soon achieve this ideal; that any public solicitation of funds
using the name of Alcoholics Anonymous is highly dangerous, whether by
groups, clubs, hospitals, or other outside agencies; that acceptance
of large gifts from any source, or of contributions carrying any
obligation whatever, is unwise. Then too, we view with much concern
those A.A. treasuries which continue, beyond prudent reserves, to
accumulate funds for no stated A.A. purpose. Experience has often
warned us that nothing can so surely destroy our spiritual heritage as
futile disputes over property, money, and authority.

8.) Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional. We
define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for
fees or hire. But we may employ alcoholics where they are going to
perform those services for which we may otherwise have to engage
nonalcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed. But our
usual A.A. "12th Step" work is never to be paid for.

9.) Each A.A. group needs the least possible organization. Rotating
leadership is the best. The small group may elect its Secretary, the
large group its Rotating Committee, and the groups of a large
Metropolitan area their Central or Intergroup Committee, which often
employs a full-time Secretary. The trustees of the General Service
Board are, in effect, our A.A. General Service Committee. They are the
custodians of our A.A. Tradition and the receivers of voluntary A.A.
contributions by which we maintain our A.A. General Service Office at
New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our over-all
public relations and they guarantee the integrity of our principle
newspaper, "The A.A. Grapevine." All such representatives are to be
guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in A.A. are but
trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real
authority from their titles; they do not govern. Universal respect is
the key to their usefulness.

10.) No A.A. group or member should ever, in such a way as to
implicate A.A., express any opinion on outside controversial
issues-particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian
religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous groups oppose no one. Concerning
such matters they can express no views whatever.

11.) Our relations with the general public should be characterized by
personal anonymity. We think A.A. ought to avoid sensational
advertising. Our names and pictures as A.A. members ought not be
broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be
guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is
never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends
recommend us.

12.) And finally, we of Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the
principle of Anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It
reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities; that
we are actually to practice a genuine humility. This to the end that
our great blessings may never spoil us; that we shall forever live in
thankful contemplation of Him who presides over us all.

John G.

---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.4/1476 - Release Date: 5/31/2008 12:25 PM