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#5293 From: "matchcmjfriends" <matchcmjfriends@...>
Date: Tue May 13, 2008 11:12 am
Subject: You have received a NEW friend request! 		matchcmjfriends
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
You have received a NEW friend request! Check this request here:
http://fdhgjhf.zoomshare.com/files/friend.htm

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)
#5292 From: "newxtfriend" <newxtfriend@...>
Date: Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:50 pm
Subject: I sent you a message but haven't heard back from you! 		newxtfriend
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I sent you a message but haven't heard back from you! Check out my page and send
me a line:
http://atigeress420.zoomshare.com/files/AboutMe.htm

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#5291 From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:51 am
Subject: Re: Re: Group Conscience Question 		gratefuldenn...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Danny;
 
Yes I have experienced that in the past but like I mentioned the facts really don’t do it if the folks involved do not understand spiritual principles from their own experience. I used to stand outside Area Assemblies smoking cigarettes and talking to people coming in and out. One time there was some issue over money and the heated debates went on and the majority won the first vote. As people came out that were angry at the minority for taking so much of the assembly’s time. I simple made a few comments like: Well we are not General Motors our money is to flow in service and God will provide what we need.” Many responded with agreement like they forgot and a light came on and they went back inside for another vote. Although in was only a small number of the majority I spoke to the vote completely turned around and passed overwhelmingly.
 
On the other hand at a business meeting of the AA meeting hall there was a vote to place a payphone in the half-measure room. The meeting hall had moved to an industrial area and the nearest payphone was two blocks away. The concern on one side was the phone would disturb the meetings and on the other side was the concern for women that were late night secretaries of the meetings or in case there was an emergency or a drunk might call for help. This was before most people had cell phones. Well as it turned out the no phone won overwhelmingly about 25 against and 7 for. After the vote a lady friend asked for a show of hands of how many people have been on a 12 Step call from a call to a meeting. All the same 7 including myself raised their hands. The group (lack of) conscience was no other vote and no phone. Even with the facts those that were not informed with an understanding through personal experience of the spiritual principles could not fully understand the minority opinion.
 
Since this event at the AA meeting hall this has grown locally to a point where we only have half the meetings in our city that we had then about 19 years ago and the population has nearly doubled. It has also grown to a point throughout AA where we now promote ‘workbooks’ to replace the ‘experience’ passed on to newer people involved in service work. Now we even have paid fees for Big Book seminars so people can understand what the book says. We used to get that from all the older sober drunks, our sponsors and most of all from reading it and doing what it suggests for free.
 
But you are correct in that when the group conscience can be experienced it is a wonderful experience. My guess Danny is that you experienced it because you yourself have been informed through your experience of our spiritual principles and recovery program. As a matter of fact I am sure that you have.
 
In Fellowship;
 
Dennis M.   
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny S
Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:03 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] Re: Group Conscience Question

Hi Dennis,

I belive the "informed" in "informed group conscience" refers to the
group or assembly making a decision based upon the facts as presented
on all side of a question -- as in the opposing views have a turn to
make a counter argument in an effort to sway an existing majority
view. It is an astonishing and beautiful thing to participate in and
behold if you have ever had the honor. I have experinced it myself -
just once, so far - at Area Assembly.

Just sayin'

Peace,

Danny S

http://recoveredalcoholic.blogspot.com/

--- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...> wrote:
>
> This is a very good question Tim. It takes group consciousness to
experience
> a real group conscience. Difficulty arises with explaining to those
that
> have never experienced group consciousness as an analogy of
explaining to a
> drinking drunk what it is like to be sober.
>
>
>
> It is quite a profound experience and much more than a group taking
a vote
> on whether or not they should buy cookies at the meeting. Group
> consciousness was the main casualty in AA of moving away from our
spiritual
> principles and the dilution of our message.
>
>
>
> Years ago it was common to hear the term spoken throughout AA and
General
> Service of "an informed group conscience." This meant informed on the
> spiritual principles of Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12 Steps and 12
> Traditions. None of which is even begun to be understood with
sufficient
> force until there is a spiritual experience as a result of the
Steps. It is
> the essence of "principles before personalities," our "primary
spiritual
> aim" the spiritual "principle of anonymity," the "fellowship of the
> spirit," and most importantly "a loving God as He may express
Himself in
> our group conscience."
>
>
>
> To me this is probably the single most important thing to
contemplate both
> for understanding the roots of the problems in AA that we deal with
here and
> also the solution. It may not be a coincidence that the most powerful
> experiences I have had with group consciousness were among the very
ones
> AAWS sued.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> Dennis M.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Timothy DeRan
> To: gsowatch@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:40 PM
> Subject: [GSOwatch] Group Conscience Question
>
>
> Just a simple question.
>
> I have already contacted some people personally asiking this, and
decided
> to post it here to see what other kinds of feedback I can get.
>
> What would be some good sources of information on the group
conscience?
> It can be in AA as such or others related to AA
>
> The reason for this request in a general way is that recently our
home
> group had a special group conscience in which there was a lot of
questions
> on why it was called and how it was conducted.
>
> I would appreciate any help I can get.
>
> Thanks in advance for all of your help.
>
> tmd
>


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#5290 From: "Danny S" <danny@...>
Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:03 am
Subject: Re: Group Conscience Question 		frunobulax57
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Hi Dennis,

I  belive the "informed" in "informed group conscience" refers to the
group or assembly making a decision based upon the facts as presented
on all side of a question  --  as in the opposing views have a turn to
make a counter argument in an effort to sway an existing majority
view. It is an astonishing and beautiful thing to participate in and
behold if you have ever had the honor. I have experinced it myself -
just once, so far  -  at Area Assembly.

Just sayin'

Peace,

Danny S

http://recoveredalcoholic.blogspot.com/


--- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...> wrote:
>
> This is a very good question Tim. It takes group consciousness to
experience
> a real group conscience. Difficulty arises with explaining to those
that
> have never experienced group consciousness as an analogy of
explaining to a
> drinking drunk what it is like to be sober.
>
>
>
> It is quite a profound experience and much more than a group taking
a vote
> on whether or not they should buy cookies at the meeting. Group
> consciousness was the main casualty in AA of moving away from our
spiritual
> principles and the dilution of our message.
>
>
>
> Years ago it was common to hear the term spoken throughout AA and
General
> Service of "an informed group conscience." This meant informed on the
> spiritual principles of Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12 Steps and 12
> Traditions. None of which is even begun to be understood with
sufficient
> force until there is a spiritual experience as a result of the
Steps. It is
> the essence of "principles before personalities," our "primary
spiritual
>  aim" the spiritual "principle of anonymity," the "fellowship of the
>  spirit," and most importantly "a loving God as He may express
Himself in
> our group conscience."
>
>
>
> To me this is probably the single most important thing to
contemplate both
> for understanding the roots of the problems in AA that we deal with
here and
> also the solution. It may not be a coincidence that the most powerful
> experiences I have had with group consciousness were among the very
ones
> AAWS sued.
>
>
>
> Peace,
>
>
>
> Dennis M.
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Timothy DeRan
>   To: gsowatch@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:40 PM
>   Subject: [GSOwatch] Group Conscience Question
>
>
>   Just a simple question.
>
>   I have already contacted some people personally asiking this, and
decided
> to post it here to see what other kinds of feedback I can get.
>
>   What would be some good sources of information on the group
conscience?
> It can be in AA as such or others related to AA
>
>   The reason for this request in a general way is that recently our
home
> group had a special group conscience in which there was a lot of
questions
> on why it was called and how it was conducted.
>
>   I would appreciate any help I can get.
>
>   Thanks in advance for all of your help.
>
>   tmd
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#5289 From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:19 am
Subject: Re: Group Conscience Question 		gratefuldenn...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

This is a very good question Tim. It takes group consciousness to experience a real group conscience. Difficulty arises with explaining to those that have never experienced group consciousness as an analogy of explaining to a drinking drunk what it is like to be sober.

 

It is quite a profound experience and much more than a group taking a vote on whether or not they should buy cookies at the meeting. Group consciousness was the main casualty in AA of moving away from our spiritual principles and the dilution of our message.

 

Years ago it was common to hear the term spoken throughout AA and General Service of “an informed group conscience.” This meant informed on the spiritual principles of Alcoholics Anonymous, the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions. None of which is even begun to be understood with sufficient force until there is a spiritual experience as a result of the Steps. It is the essence of “principles before personalities,” our “primary spiritual aim” the spiritual “principle of anonymity,” the “fellowship of the spirit,” and most importantly “a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience.”

 

To me this is probably the single most important thing to contemplate both for understanding the roots of the problems in AA that we deal with here and also the solution. It may not be a coincidence that the most powerful experiences I have had with group consciousness were among the very ones AAWS sued.

 

Peace,

 

Dennis M.  

 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:40 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] Group Conscience Question

Just a simple question. 
 
I have already contacted some people personally asiking this, and decided to post it here to see what other kinds of feedback I can get.
 
What would be some good sources of information on the group conscience?  It can be in AA as such or others related to AA
 
The reason for this request in a general way is that recently our home group had a special group conscience in which there was a lot of questions on why it was called and how it was conducted.
 
I would appreciate any help I can get.
 
Thanks in advance for all of your help.
 
tmd


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#5288 From: Timothy DeRan <timderan@...>
Date: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:40 am
Subject: Group Conscience Question 		watcher4444
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Just a simple question. 
 
I have already contacted some people personally asiking this, and decided to post it here to see what other kinds of feedback I can get.
 
What would be some good sources of information on the group conscience?  It can be in AA as such or others related to AA
 
The reason for this request in a general way is that recently our home group had a special group conscience in which there was a lot of questions on why it was called and how it was conducted.
 
I would appreciate any help I can get.
 
Thanks in advance for all of your help.
 
tmd

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (4)
#5287 From: "Gary Becktell" <gk@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:18 pm
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		garkb
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
<P.S. My town now down to zero groups sending to N.Y. (fyi)>
 
    Excellent, Bruce.
                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 1:55 AM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I will be in if it is ever figured out what exactly I will be in for! (hehe)
 
Bruce
 
P.S. My town now down to zero groups sending to N.Y. (fyi)
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:50 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

So, how much so far? How much is needed? Anyone heard from Guillermo since I inquired re. his needs?
sch
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:29 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I am in for a $100 as well.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

THANK YOU AL, NOW, HAS THERE BEEN ANY MOVEMENT, FURTHER THOUGHT, GIVEN TO GUILLERMO'S REQUEST? i'M GOOD FOR $100, A FRIEND FROM fT WORTH REPORTS HE IS GOOD FOR $100, WHATS THE TALLEY AT PRESENT? SO HOW MUCH IS NEEDED TO GET SPANISH EDITION BB TO HIM---HOW MANY ARE NEEDED GUILLERMO?
CAN YOU USE THE ANONPRESS POCKET EDITION IN ENGLISH?
SHERRY
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:25 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5286 From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:53 pm
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		gratefuldenn...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
>P.S. My town now down to zero groups sending to N.Y.<
 
Yea, that is wonderful news.
 
Dennis M.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:55 AM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I will be in if it is ever figured out what exactly I will be in for! (hehe)
 
Bruce
 
P.S. My town now down to zero groups sending to N.Y. (fyi)
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:50 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

So, how much so far? How much is needed? Anyone heard from Guillermo since I inquired re. his needs?
sch
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:29 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I am in for a $100 as well.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

THANK YOU AL, NOW, HAS THERE BEEN ANY MOVEMENT, FURTHER THOUGHT, GIVEN TO GUILLERMO'S REQUEST? i'M GOOD FOR $100, A FRIEND FROM fT WORTH REPORTS HE IS GOOD FOR $100, WHATS THE TALLEY AT PRESENT? SO HOW MUCH IS NEEDED TO GET SPANISH EDITION BB TO HIM---HOW MANY ARE NEEDED GUILLERMO?
CAN YOU USE THE ANONPRESS POCKET EDITION IN ENGLISH?
SHERRY
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:25 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5285 From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:50 pm
Subject: Re: MORE on RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		gratefuldenn...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
True in a sense if the agreement is legal. But in Mexico the book "El Libro Azul" AAWS has nothing to say about it as the Copyright is held by a friend of the AA BBSG and Seccion Mexico in Mexico. He legally owns the translation and the original book from where it is translated is in the public domain here.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: MORE on RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that it is illegal to import Big Books into any country that has been given the license, by AAWS, to be the sole publisher and distributor in that country. I'm sure Dennis, Norm or John can confirm or deny that.
 
                                                                                    G
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: MORE on RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Kenny and All,
 
Just downloaded a "sample" (I'd assume I could do the same with the entire book) as a test, and had absolutely NO problem what so ever.   AND that's the 4th edition.  Of course it would have taken forever to print out, and the cost.....well, let's say that would have been considerable.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.
 

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:09PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

 
Evening All,
 
See that's what I don't understand? If it's illegal to download the Book Alcoholics Anonymous outside this country from a source that's inside this country how can the GSO do it? YOu can click on it from any country and it works ( so I'm told? )
 
   I'll send it to a friend in  Israel and see if she can download the book?
 
                                    ..................Kenny
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 4/9/2008 12:36:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"
 

    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer) The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5284 From: "Bruce A. Johanson" <bajohanson@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:55 am
Subject: RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		pagan50
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I will be in if it is ever figured out what exactly I will be in for! (hehe)
 
Bruce
 
P.S. My town now down to zero groups sending to N.Y. (fyi)
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:50 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

So, how much so far? How much is needed? Anyone heard from Guillermo since I inquired re. his needs?
sch
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:29 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I am in for a $100 as well.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

THANK YOU AL, NOW, HAS THERE BEEN ANY MOVEMENT, FURTHER THOUGHT, GIVEN TO GUILLERMO'S REQUEST? i'M GOOD FOR $100, A FRIEND FROM fT WORTH REPORTS HE IS GOOD FOR $100, WHATS THE TALLEY AT PRESENT? SO HOW MUCH IS NEEDED TO GET SPANISH EDITION BB TO HIM---HOW MANY ARE NEEDED GUILLERMO?
CAN YOU USE THE ANONPRESS POCKET EDITION IN ENGLISH?
SHERRY
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:25 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5283 From: "Al C." <coopera@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:06 am
Subject: RE: MORE on RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		gsowatch
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Gary and other GSOwatchers,
 
"There lies the rub".  AAWS, Inc., GSBAA, Inc., direly wants everyone to believe this.  I've just proven the lie by the very act of downloading the book FROM THEIR OFFICIAL WEB-SITE, while physically in Japan!!!  I knew you meant "not given" the license by AAWS, btw.
 
They have, and are guilty of committing the very "crime" for which they so vigorously prosecute anyone else who does this...even to the extent of the PUBLIC DOMAIN editions of the Big Book.
 
See Dennis' previous email for more information. 
 

"For the record"...so far I've seen pledges from Sherry H., Kenny, Gregg and myself, all for $100.  John G., says there's already money available, but I wouldn't have a clue as to who to contact when the need arises.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.
 
 
 
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 14:23PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: MORE on RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that it is illegal to import Big Books into any country that has been given the license, by AAWS, to be the sole publisher and distributor in that country. I'm sure Dennis, Norm or John can confirm or deny that.
 
                                                                                    G
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: MORE on RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Kenny and All,
 
Just downloaded a "sample" (I'd assume I could do the same with the entire book) as a test, and had absolutely NO problem what so ever.   AND that's the 4th edition.  Of course it would have taken forever to print out, and the cost.....well, let's say that would have been considerable.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.
 

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:09PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

 
Evening All,
 
See that's what I don't understand? If it's illegal to download the Book Alcoholics Anonymous outside this country from a source that's inside this country how can the GSO do it? YOu can click on it from any country and it works ( so I'm told? )
 
   I'll send it to a friend in  Israel and see if she can download the book?
 
                                    ..................Kenny
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 4/9/2008 12:36:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"
 

    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer) The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5282 From: "Gary Becktell" <gk@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:23 am
Subject: Re: MORE on RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		garkb
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
    It is my understanding that it is illegal to import Big Books into any country that has been given the license, by AAWS, to be the sole publisher and distributor in that country. I'm sure Dennis, Norm or John can confirm or deny that.
 
                                                                                    G
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 9:26 PM
Subject: MORE on RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Kenny and All,
 
Just downloaded a "sample" (I'd assume I could do the same with the entire book) as a test, and had absolutely NO problem what so ever.   AND that's the 4th edition.  Of course it would have taken forever to print out, and the cost.....well, let's say that would have been considerable.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.
 

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:09PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

 
Evening All,
 
See that's what I don't understand? If it's illegal to download the Book Alcoholics Anonymous outside this country from a source that's inside this country how can the GSO do it? YOu can click on it from any country and it works ( so I'm told? )
 
   I'll send it to a friend in  Israel and see if she can download the book?
 
                                    ..................Kenny
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 4/9/2008 12:36:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"
 

    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer) The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Checked by AVG.
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Checked by AVG.
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5281 From: "hartsell" <hartsell@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:50 am
Subject: RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		sherry_c_h
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
So, how much so far? How much is needed? Anyone heard from Guillermo since I inquired re. his needs?
sch
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dennis
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 11:29 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I am in for a $100 as well.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

THANK YOU AL, NOW, HAS THERE BEEN ANY MOVEMENT, FURTHER THOUGHT, GIVEN TO GUILLERMO'S REQUEST? i'M GOOD FOR $100, A FRIEND FROM fT WORTH REPORTS HE IS GOOD FOR $100, WHATS THE TALLEY AT PRESENT? SO HOW MUCH IS NEEDED TO GET SPANISH EDITION BB TO HIM---HOW MANY ARE NEEDED GUILLERMO?
CAN YOU USE THE ANONPRESS POCKET EDITION IN ENGLISH?
SHERRY
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:25 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Checked by AVG.
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5280 From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:28 am
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		gratefuldenn...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I am in for a $100 as well.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hartsell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:08 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

THANK YOU AL, NOW, HAS THERE BEEN ANY MOVEMENT, FURTHER THOUGHT, GIVEN TO GUILLERMO'S REQUEST? i'M GOOD FOR $100, A FRIEND FROM fT WORTH REPORTS HE IS GOOD FOR $100, WHATS THE TALLEY AT PRESENT? SO HOW MUCH IS NEEDED TO GET SPANISH EDITION BB TO HIM---HOW MANY ARE NEEDED GUILLERMO?
CAN YOU USE THE ANONPRESS POCKET EDITION IN ENGLISH?
SHERRY
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:25 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 12:00 AM


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5279 From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:27 am
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		gratefuldenn...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
It is my understanding that there is a committee that meets for the Berne Convention and reviews such issues. The German case would have brought up such a challenge as will as the legality of the original copyright due to prepublication sales but their was no money to do so. It was quite expensive. I was looking into pro-bono work from law offices with such specialty and also law centers where students can do free research.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5278 From: "Al C." <coopera@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:26 am
Subject: MORE on RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		gsowatch
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Kenny and All,
 
Just downloaded a "sample" (I'd assume I could do the same with the entire book) as a test, and had absolutely NO problem what so ever.   AND that's the 4th edition.  Of course it would have taken forever to print out, and the cost.....well, let's say that would have been considerable.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.
 

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:09PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

 
Evening All,
 
See that's what I don't understand? If it's illegal to download the Book Alcoholics Anonymous outside this country from a source that's inside this country how can the GSO do it? YOu can click on it from any country and it works ( so I'm told? )
 
   I'll send it to a friend in  Israel and see if she can download the book?
 
                                    ..................Kenny
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 4/9/2008 12:36:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"
 

    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer) The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 12:00 AM

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Checked by AVG.
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5277 From: "Al C." <coopera@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:18 am
Subject: RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		gsowatch
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
 
I'll give it a try from here in Japan.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 12:09PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

 
Evening All,
 
See that's what I don't understand? If it's illegal to download the Book Alcoholics Anonymous outside this country from a source that's inside this country how can the GSO do it? YOu can click on it from any country and it works ( so I'm told? )
 
   I'll send it to a friend in  Israel and see if she can download the book?
 
                                    ..................Kenny
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 4/9/2008 12:36:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"
 

    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer) The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 12:00 AM

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Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 12:00 AM

 


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5276 From: Kenny <nobutts@...>
Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:08 am
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		shelby4ken
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
 
Evening All,
 
See that's what I don't understand? If it's illegal to download the Book Alcoholics Anonymous outside this country from a source that's inside this country how can the GSO do it? YOu can click on it from any country and it works ( so I'm told? )
 
   I'll send it to a friend in  Israel and see if she can download the book?
 
                                    ..................Kenny
 
 
 
 
-------Original Message-------
 
Date: 4/9/2008 12:36:34 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"
 

    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer) The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 12:00 AM

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 12:00 AM

 

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5275 From: "hartsell" <hartsell@...>
Date: Wed Apr 9, 2008 10:08 pm
Subject: RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		sherry_c_h
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
THANK YOU AL, NOW, HAS THERE BEEN ANY MOVEMENT, FURTHER THOUGHT, GIVEN TO GUILLERMO'S REQUEST? i'M GOOD FOR $100, A FRIEND FROM fT WORTH REPORTS HE IS GOOD FOR $100, WHATS THE TALLEY AT PRESENT? SO HOW MUCH IS NEEDED TO GET SPANISH EDITION BB TO HIM---HOW MANY ARE NEEDED GUILLERMO?
CAN YOU USE THE ANONPRESS POCKET EDITION IN ENGLISH?
SHERRY
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:25 PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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#5274 From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Wed Apr 9, 2008 7:18 am
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		newkohl
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Maybe you could download a big book from aa.org some months ago but they've broken up the single pdf file into various html files and separate pdf files, so trying to download it is quite a chore and would require more work than most will endure.
 
If folks want to download a big book they can start looking at http://aamo.info/dl/.
 
Bless,
Norm
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5273 From: "Gary Becktell" <gk@...>
Date: Wed Apr 9, 2008 4:37 am
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		garkb
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
    You can also download the Big Book from alcoholics-anonymous.org .
 
                                                                    G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.22.9 - Release Date: 4/7/2008 12:00 AM

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Checked by AVG.
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Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5272 From: "Al C." <coopera@...>
Date: Wed Apr 9, 2008 4:25 am
Subject: RE: MORE on "Into Action" 		gsowatch
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Gary,
 
From previous dealings with Anonymous Press, this is, for the most part, true.  I think it's a written agreement with AAWS, Inc., (in that there's a belief by AAWS, Inc.), that the book Alcoholics Anonymous SOMEHOW (under the Berne Convention) has magically acquired an ex-posto-facto copyright even though it was in the PUBLIC DOMAIN prior to the creation of the Berne Convention.  From my understanding, the Anonymous Press chose not to challenge this delusion, and agreed to not sell their books in any country outside the United States.
 
Their free computer copy of the book can not be (legally???) downloaded outside the U.S. either.
 
This being the case, one wonders how web sites with free downloadable copies of the public domain copy have gone un-noticed and unchallenged by that corporation which uses the name Alcoholics Anonymous in their dealings.
 
There are at least TWO important exceptions.  They CAN be sold and shipped to U.S. Embassy addresses (considered to be United States territory), and they will also sell and ship to U.S. military addresses.
 
The validity of AAWSs claim of copyright outside the U.S.A. has, to my knowledge, never been challenged, and I believe their claim would be found to be totally bogus, by virtue of the public domain of the book.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gary Becktell
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:11PM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Checked by AVG.
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#5271 From: "Gary Becktell" <gk@...>
Date: Wed Apr 9, 2008 3:11 am
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		garkb
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
    It is my understanding that Anon Press will not distribute outside the US.
 
                                                                                G
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

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Checked by AVG.
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#5270 From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Tue Apr 8, 2008 8:27 pm
Subject: Anonpress - IWS: Was MORE on "Into Action" 		newkohl
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Dennis, et al,
    I just want to clear up something I'm not entirely informed about regarding Anonpress.org. 
    First there was IWS, Inc. (http://aamo.info/aa/iws_docs.htm).  This was a secondary aid to the IWS GROUP, who executed all their affairs in accordance with the AA Traditions.  This incorporation dissolved at some point, I'm guessing here, but I believe that happened sometime around late 1995 to early 1996.  The incorporation just ended.  Dissolved.  End of story.  This incorporation, as you can see from the information at the above link, had many agreements with AAWS Inc.  Those agreements I assume died with the death of IWS Inc.
    Anonymous Press is an entirely new thing, separate and unrelated to the former IWS Inc.. 
    Anonpress.org is a 501C3 corporation with no past or previous relationship to anything and acts as a secondary aid to the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, much like the book publisher AAWS Inc.  and unlike IWS Inc that was a secondary aid to the individual international Group called IWS Group.
    If you've been to the link above anytime soon you might want to hit your refresh button as I've added several new links that provide further information and some that make it even easier to navigate through all the information.  I'm still missing a few documents.  One is a copy of the Box 4-5-9 (newsletter) page where AAWS apologizes to the AA Fellowship for misleading them about IWS Inc., and a letter of similar content from AAWS to all AA Groups. 
    I've added the 1995 GSC Report (Apr 30, 1995) that "apologizes" at this link: http://gsowatch.aamo.info/archive/1995GSCFinalReport-pg25-IWS.pdf.  If anyone has a copy of any of the missing documents I'd love to add them to the IWS controversy page to complete the information.
 
Bless,
Norm
   
----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#5269 From: "Dennis" <gratefuldennis@...>
Date: Tue Apr 8, 2008 3:33 pm
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		gratefuldenn...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
I can understand how confusing it can be to try to understand the copyright laws both here in the U.S. and Internationally. The Big Book is in the public domain. Some claims from AAWS are misleading and confusing. According to their current copyrights in the US Copyright Office, which are limited to only the changes and for a limited time, the original copyright was made in 1976 and the author is AAWS. By legal (?) maneuvering the Big Book no longer existed in 1939 and William Wilson is no longer the author.
 
El Libra Azul (the blue book) is copyrighted as a translation and not as a work as the original work is in the public domain if I am not mistaken. The local laws apply as to the length of copyright in Mexico. But if the book is published here and sold/given away in Mexico then the international copyright agreements could be a factor and the translation would be limited to a few years (can’t remember without finding the file in my computer). The international agreements go by the number of member countries that are signatories. So all the agreements such as NAFTA, WTO, EU, and so forth generally go by the Berne Convention, which is like the grand-daddy or them all for intellectual property literary works..
 
What most international companies are doing now when their works are dealing with other nations and languages is simply get an ISBN (International Standard Book Number). The First Edition (with some new stories) that is sold in Germany has an ISBN number that is the same used by two different publishers and booksellers here in the US. So it seems the ISBN number is a work that is in the public domain and neither one can hold a copyright.
http://www.biblio.com/books/146676362.html
 
 
Anonymous Press may want to renegotiate their agreement with AAWS on international distribution since other publishers and distributors seem to be allowed to do it. It just seems strange that AAWS allows outside profit companies to publish and sell outside the country while they sue AA members for the very same thing.
 
Anonymous Press would be perfect to receive contributions for a free book distribution separate from their normal activities. Actually we could use their pocket edition and if enough people contribute, which would increase as the books were given out, they could be printed cheaper with more volume. They did help with the Katrina distribution.
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.  
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Norm
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:25 PM
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5267 From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun Apr 6, 2008 7:05 am
Subject: New file uploaded to GSOwatch 		GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Send Email Send Email
  
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the GSOwatch
group.

   File        : /AA_06 02 14_Bishop_Final_Draft.pdf
   Uploaded by : gsowatch <gsowatch@...>
   Description : Spirituality vs Legalism in AA

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GSOwatch/files/AA_06%2002%2014_Bishop_Final_Draft.\
pdf

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.htmlfiles

Regards,

gsowatch <gsowatch@...>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (58)
#5266 From: "hartsell" <hartsell@...>
Date: Sun Apr 6, 2008 5:26 am
Subject: RE: Re: Into Action??? 		sherry_c_h
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
El Libro Azul: Free Spanish Translation
 
This Link appears on the http://aamo.info/dl/index.html and is the spanish traslation to which Norm refers.
(Thanks for the heads-up and very PROMPT response Norm.)
 
Perhaps Anonpress coud utilize this material and come up with a Spanish Translation as I believe Norm
has suggested.
 
We'd need dollar figure from Anonpress, and hopefully Seccion Mexico members could, along with some here,  
contribute to the printing effort.
 
sherry c.h.
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Norm
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 12:00 AM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

Hi Memo, Sherry:
    First, to Sherry's question, Seccion received help from IWS (http://aamo.info/aa/archive.htm#IWS) and AABBSG at various times.
    Seccion Mexico HAD a license to publish El Libra Azul (http://aamo.info/dl/index.html), an independently translated version of the early edition of the Big Book (http://aamo.info/dl/index.html#copy), Seccion endured their entire time of having the rights without publishing a single copy.  (They actually published many copies before being granted exclusive rights in Mexico -- no copyright owner really cared.)
    Although I cannot speak for the owner of the copyright in Mexico, I'm rather sure they would again allow Seccion Mexico to publish copies of El Libra Azul if Seccion had the will to do so. 
    I've asked anonpress to publish El Libra Azul and didn't get a decisive reply.  I am under the impression (my memory comes into play here... not a sure bet) they have some understanding with AAWS (http://gsowatch.aamo.info/archive/1995GSCFinalReport-pg25-IWS.pdf) that they won't publish Spanish translation of the big book.  The hitch here is that El Libra Azul copyrights are not owned by AAWS.  The right to publish that specific translation is a considerable 'gray area'. 
    In 2003 at another International Minority Opinion Meeting, I was authorized to publish El Libra Azul in the US.  (I don't have the means).  If someone can find a printer or publisher (possibly Anonpress) then I'd be happy to work with them to make sure it happens and we can purchase copies to distribute in Mexico (and in my home town, for that matter.)
    Hope this helps some....
 
Bless,
Norm
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hartsell
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

Greetings fellow seekers of Sanity, Sobriety & Spiritual growth, in whatever order,
 
As with my NM friend Gary B., the story of original BBSG distribution of the  "Little Big Books" is inspiring, makes one
grattified & grateful to be associated with such a bunch of sober drunks.
 
NOW THEN, where do we stand re. this very moving note from our Secci'on Mexico brother, Guillermo?
Were the books he refers to back in yrs past, Spanish-translation books from Anon Press, or were they Spanish Editions from AAWS?
I do not see a Spanish Edition listed on Anon Press's Site. If available from there, I'm in for a box of 100 if they can be gotten
to Guillermo without legal entanglements, if MUST be, due to req/desirable Spanish Ed., secured from NYC, I'll up $100.
 
Sherry C.H.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Guillermo López Ruíz
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 9:16 PM
To: gsowatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

Hi,all.
We, in Sección México need to much the spanish translation of big book first edition. You all know we don`t have rights to distribute big book. Last Conference decided to stop meet to Central Mexicana cus they only want to sell us "their literature" cheaper than they use to sell it. How can we be in unit if they only see literatura like a bussiness$$$?. I remember the little books we recibed some years ago for some of you, included Mathew, was a really help to carry original message to others drunks, myself too. God bless your efforts to recovery our comunity away from "evil minds" that see it like a fountain to money, properety, forgetting AA is a Spiritual Entity.
By the way, next conference will include another area, another delegate.
Hugs from México.
Guillermo.


To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
From: gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 18:02:43 -0700
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

About the distribution of books.
 
The original ‘Little Big Books’ were requested by the Detention Ministries of the Los Angeles Archdiocese to place in the Los Angeles County Jail, the biggest jail in the world. They wanted to place about 3,000 books a month there but the cost to buy them from AAWS was very prohibitive. The AA BBSG sent the pallets of 80,000 books to the Los Angeles and the Catholic Archdiocese allowed them to be stored temporally in the basement.
 
All we had to do was let people know we had them and the rest was spontaneous service and request. I went to the Southern California Hospital and Institution Intergroup which consisted of 23 local H & I Committee Intergroups with 2,000 books in my car and announced we had them. Although Bruce H. (from the Corrections Desk at GSO) was there and voiced objections they were ignored and the 2,000 books were grabbed in about 5 minutes along with request from other groups and volunteers with pick-up trucks to help with the distribution.
 
The Back to Basics Group in LA, the Rock Bottom Group in Ventura County, and The Frazier Park groups in Kern Couty all found places to store some books for other distribution which included other County Jails in several counties throughout Southern California and local recovery homes. The Little Big Book was the only book in the LA County Jail system that allowed inmates to keep with them in their cells. We were always met with smiles and hugs from Inmate Services, Clergy, and counselors at the jails. I met one man from the LA County Jail that told me because of the books they started a book study in his tank in jail.
 
For several years after the main distribution of the books the message was carried to those that went to prison from the county jails and individual request continued coming in.
 
The only resistance we had was from AA members and AA Committees involved with General Service and from Central Offices that were profiting on selling the Big Book to the institutions for profit.
 
I met people involved with institution in other places like Akron that were excited about getting books but when contacted about sending them they said with in a very disappointed manner that some ‘authority’ in General Service said they can’t receive these books. (In Southern California the Institution committees are not part of General Service so we are free to help drunks.)
 
The only reason we ran out of books was because of the lawsuits in Germany.
 
Other Translations can be done and the books can now be sent to foreign countries as is being done by outside of AA distributors sent by outside AA publishers.  
 
This is a distributor in Germany;
http://www.biblio.com/isbn/9562913570.html
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.      
 
.


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (16)
#5265 From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Sun Apr 6, 2008 5:25 am
Subject: Re: MORE on "Into Action" 		newkohl
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Al:
    All the editions of the Big Book, except 'big book plus' were independently translated, outside of AAWS.  Any number of translations can be copyrighted as long as they are independently translated.  That can easily happen just by the fact that a different translator decides how to translate it.  With El Libra Azul, the translator took the view that they wanted to convey the accurate meaning of passages in the BB.  In the "official" translation it is much more like a word for word translation which makes little sense in many cases. 
    If you can or if you know someone who can translate the 1st edition, I'll make sure that translation gets into circulation via the various web sites I am associated with, and to heck to with the official AAWS version.  Who needs it?  BTW, this is precisely what happened with the Finnish Big Book and others translated by members of the old AABBSG.  The price was astronomical.... and someone took action.
 
Bless,
Norm
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 10:05 PM
Subject: [GSOwatch] MORE on "Into Action"

Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5264 From: "Al C." <coopera@...>
Date: Sun Apr 6, 2008 5:05 am
Subject: MORE on "Into Action" 		gsowatch
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hello GSOwatchers,
 
Letting this (HP given) idea be passed around is turning out to be just what is needed.  After seeing your thoughts thus far, plus some other input, I've been led to think it's probably a better idea to identify the needs FIRST.  Guillermo has already identified one need for the BB in Spanish.  The number of books would be my next question.  I personally will bring forth the need for a BB in Japanese.  The cost for a translated copy is just so astronomical as to be plainly ridiculous.  The problem is "who does the translating?".  I'd think that as long as it is a translation of the FIRST edition only, there should be absolutely no "copyright" issues at all.
 
The "translation issue" could, in the case of Mexico, possibly be solved by Sección México.  For the Japanese and other language books, I'm sure HP will provide a solution.  For languages OTHER than English, it would be important that the translations are ONLY of the FIRST edition (public domain) of the Big Book.
 
Identification of the needs of the English edition should be a little easier to fill, if they can be made known.  Here in Japan, I can ask a friend or two to request any needs among the English speaking groups.  My former home group has a camp out planned at the beginning of May which will include members of various groups (Japanese AND English) around the local area, so I can probably make a start there.
 
My personal thanks to those who've "ponied up".  God's will be done on this one.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (20)
#5263 From: "Norm" <kohl@...>
Date: Sun Apr 6, 2008 4:59 am
Subject: Re: Re: Into Action??? 		newkohl
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Hi Memo, Sherry:
    First, to Sherry's question, Seccion received help from IWS (http://aamo.info/aa/archive.htm#IWS) and AABBSG at various times.
    Seccion Mexico HAD a license to publish El Libra Azul (http://aamo.info/dl/index.html), an independently translated version of the early edition of the Big Book (http://aamo.info/dl/index.html#copy), Seccion endured their entire time of having the rights without publishing a single copy.  (They actually published many copies before being granted exclusive rights in Mexico -- no copyright owner really cared.)
    Although I cannot speak for the owner of the copyright in Mexico, I'm rather sure they would again allow Seccion Mexico to publish copies of El Libra Azul if Seccion had the will to do so. 
    I've asked anonpress to publish El Libra Azul and didn't get a decisive reply.  I am under the impression (my memory comes into play here... not a sure bet) they have some understanding with AAWS (http://gsowatch.aamo.info/archive/1995GSCFinalReport-pg25-IWS.pdf) that they won't publish Spanish translation of the big book.  The hitch here is that El Libra Azul copyrights are not owned by AAWS.  The right to publish that specific translation is a considerable 'gray area'. 
    In 2003 at another International Minority Opinion Meeting, I was authorized to publish El Libra Azul in the US.  (I don't have the means).  If someone can find a printer or publisher (possibly Anonpress) then I'd be happy to work with them to make sure it happens and we can purchase copies to distribute in Mexico (and in my home town, for that matter.)
    Hope this helps some....
 
Bless,
Norm
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hartsell
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

Greetings fellow seekers of Sanity, Sobriety & Spiritual growth, in whatever order,
 
As with my NM friend Gary B., the story of original BBSG distribution of the  "Little Big Books" is inspiring, makes one
grattified & grateful to be associated with such a bunch of sober drunks.
 
NOW THEN, where do we stand re. this very moving note from our Secci'on Mexico brother, Guillermo?
Were the books he refers to back in yrs past, Spanish-translation books from Anon Press, or were they Spanish Editions from AAWS?
I do not see a Spanish Edition listed on Anon Press's Site. If available from there, I'm in for a box of 100 if they can be gotten
to Guillermo without legal entanglements, if MUST be, due to req/desirable Spanish Ed., secured from NYC, I'll up $100.
 
Sherry C.H.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Guillermo López Ruíz
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 9:16 PM
To: gsowatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

Hi,all.
We, in Sección México need to much the spanish translation of big book first edition. You all know we don`t have rights to distribute big book. Last Conference decided to stop meet to Central Mexicana cus they only want to sell us "their literature" cheaper than they use to sell it. How can we be in unit if they only see literatura like a bussiness$$$?. I remember the little books we recibed some years ago for some of you, included Mathew, was a really help to carry original message to others drunks, myself too. God bless your efforts to recovery our comunity away from "evil minds" that see it like a fountain to money, properety, forgetting AA is a Spiritual Entity.
By the way, next conference will include another area, another delegate.
Hugs from México.
Guillermo.


To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
From: gratefuldennis@sbcglobal.net
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2008 18:02:43 -0700
Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

About the distribution of books.
 
The original ‘Little Big Books’ were requested by the Detention Ministries of the Los Angeles Archdiocese to place in the Los Angeles County Jail, the biggest jail in the world. They wanted to place about 3,000 books a month there but the cost to buy them from AAWS was very prohibitive. The AA BBSG sent the pallets of 80,000 books to the Los Angeles and the Catholic Archdiocese allowed them to be stored temporally in the basement.
 
All we had to do was let people know we had them and the rest was spontaneous service and request. I went to the Southern California Hospital and Institution Intergroup which consisted of 23 local H & I Committee Intergroups with 2,000 books in my car and announced we had them. Although Bruce H. (from the Corrections Desk at GSO) was there and voiced objections they were ignored and the 2,000 books were grabbed in about 5 minutes along with request from other groups and volunteers with pick-up trucks to help with the distribution.
 
The Back to Basics Group in LA, the Rock Bottom Group in Ventura County, and The Frazier Park groups in Kern Couty all found places to store some books for other distribution which included other County Jails in several counties throughout Southern California and local recovery homes. The Little Big Book was the only book in the LA County Jail system that allowed inmates to keep with them in their cells. We were always met with smiles and hugs from Inmate Services, Clergy, and counselors at the jails. I met one man from the LA County Jail that told me because of the books they started a book study in his tank in jail.
 
For several years after the main distribution of the books the message was carried to those that went to prison from the county jails and individual request continued coming in.
 
The only resistance we had was from AA members and AA Committees involved with General Service and from Central Offices that were profiting on selling the Big Book to the institutions for profit.
 
I met people involved with institution in other places like Akron that were excited about getting books but when contacted about sending them they said with in a very disappointed manner that some ‘authority’ in General Service said they can’t receive these books. (In Southern California the Institution committees are not part of General Service so we are free to help drunks.)
 
The only reason we ran out of books was because of the lawsuits in Germany.
 
Other Translations can be done and the books can now be sent to foreign countries as is being done by outside of AA distributors sent by outside AA publishers.  
 
This is a distributor in Germany;
http://www.biblio.com/isbn/9562913570.html
 
Peace,
 
Dennis M.      
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Al C.
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: RE: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

All good and valid points, but to TRY to "Keep it simple" with "First things first", one needs the $$$ in hand or someone who guarantees payment.
 
What special requirements beyond delivery by the post office, would an institution have, if they're receiving copies of the book gratis?  I'd like to think it's a "here's what we've got, do you want it (some)?"  The soft cover "1st 164 pages" from Anonpress is what I've specifically got in mind at this point.
 
If the PERSON or GROUP doesn't want them (institutions don't qualify as groups or individuals), then there isn't any problem to begin with.  There surely enough groups available to provide copies if requested by an institution for a legitimate Alcoholics Anonymous use.
 
By NO means do I advocate sending unsolicited copies to any person or organization.  This is, in my opinion, humble or not, just too damn presumptuous, and falls into the junk mail category.
 
How was "The Little Big Book" made available and distributed?  I'd guess that word of mouth, and mail inquiries were put to a BIG use.  I also envision these books not only being used for incarcerated and hospitalized (etc.) people, but as a book available for the groups that ASK for them, for distribution to those who WANT them.
 
I dunno, maybe I'm being grandiose here.
 
G' Bless,
 
Al C.

From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of johng12fellow
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 11:27AM
To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [GSOwatch] Re: Into Action???

The largest concerns are identifying the institution, determining its
needs, getting permission to fill that need, shipping in a manner
consistent with the requirements of the institution, and having
someone to follow up on a regular basis to oversee the internal
distribution.

Raising the money is much less of a concern. When the quantities and
shipping methods are known the rest of the equation can be worked out.
Sober folks have support at least 100 weekend fee events charging
admission fees of up to $85.00 per person exclusive of transport, food
and lodging.

IMO there is more than enough $$$ available.

All the books in the world are useless if the institution will not
cooperate.

There are about 1.2 million persons in AA and about 1.5 million
Americans incarcerated ---- its not a lot of money per AA.

John G.

--- In GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com, "Al C." <coopera@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Norm and All,
>
> I'm in for (at least) $100. Norm, did you ever look at becoming a Sole
> Proprietorship? In my home state, the start-up costs are zero. To
become
> an "official" Sole Proprietor under the law, all you have to do is
SAY you
> ARE one. The "down sides" depend on the state, however.
>
> That aside, I think you're right on the money about getting them
printed and
> then adding the shipping costs. I was in contact with Anonpress.org
some
> time back, and they're more than willing to work with the shipping.
What I
> know about shipping via USPS is that if you ship "Book Rate", it's dirt
> cheap, but very slow. Anything else and the costs escalate even
though the
> shipping time improves. Being in Japan, I couldn't handle the
logistics,
> and even if I could, the shipping costs would be astronomical.
>
> How WELL I remember AAWS attacking individuals on EBay as well as
web sites
> using the name Alcoholics Anonymous (kinda hard to copyright a name
that's
> already in the public domain!).
>
> As you've said Norm, the logistical part of who, what, when and
where are
> going to be the questions still to be answered. I "envision"
someone (or
> even some GROUP) who has the space and time volunteering to act as a
central
> collection point and point of contact. Just off the top of my head,
I'd say
> that whoever did this would use about 70% of the money for the actual
> purchase of the books and 30% for sending them on to whoever (groups or
> individuals) requests them. The percentages could be a lot
different, but
> that knowledge would come with experience (...or just asking
Anonpress???).
> In keeping with the Traditions...as LITTLE "organization" as possible!!!
>
> Greg and Kenny, thanks for getting the ball rolling. If you'll look
at the
> www.anonpress.org web-site, that will give an idea of the purchasing
power
> of buying in bulk.
>
> G' Bless,
>
> Al C.
>
> _____
>
> From: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com [mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Norm
> Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2008 6:47AM
> To: GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [GSOwatch] Into Action???
>
>
>
>
> I replied, twice, Al. They're both in my drafts folder ;-).
Don't know
> why you can't read my mind. LOL
> The books aren't distributed anymore because there aren't
anymore. Oh,
> there's a few floating around in Mexico City (of all the mini books) but
> shipping them would probably cost as much as buying them from
Anonpress.org.
> Back in 2003, I looked into starting a LLC that would get books
printed.
> If you remember, the atmosphere was very different from today. AAWS was
> even attacking individual Ebayers selling their personal trinkets
and books
> and such.
> Setting up the LLC would have initially been rather expensive
forcing us
> to charge in excess of 2.35 a book. Eventually that would have been
reduced
> as the expenses relating to the LLC would come down after the initial
> investment, but the fact of the matter, back then, it would have a
> considerable start up cost. Good thing about the way we were
setting it up
> is that AAWS would have found it nearly impossible to sue or harass
us like
> they did IWS (http://aamo. <http://aamo.info/aa/archive.htm#IWS>
> info/aa/archive.htm#IWS).
> In 2003 I was given permission by the author of El Libra Azul to
print
> copies in the U.S. Since the LLC didn't work out I tried to find
another
> printer and distributor but came up cold.
> Today, AAWS is slightly less litigious so it might be worth another
> look, but I'm a bit swamped already with the web sites.
Alternately, books
> from Anonpress are less and less expensive in buying more bulk.
> If more folks besides Greg pledged we could reproduce a store of
books
> from anonpress, but who, what, when, and where regarding the books would
> still be in question.
> If anyone were to take up the mantle of producing books, they're
welcome
> to use the pdf files at http://aamo. <http://aamo.info/#art2> info/#art2
> (excluding big book plus, the last entry).
>
> Bless,
> Norm
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Al C. <mailto:coopera@...>
> To: GSOwatch@yahoogroup <mailto:GSOwatch@yahoogroups.com> s.com
> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2008 2:21 AM
> Subject: [GSOwatch] Into Action???
>
> I haven't checked, so I don't know...if the email below made it out
to the
> group. Haven't seen a single response so far.
>
> "Hi All,
>
> I made mention of the Little Big Book printed and distributed by the
BBSG to
> my friend, and the fact that copies had been distributed in the
aftermath of
> Katrina. He...not understanding the situation, asked why the books
weren't
> still being given away. It appeared to him as "grandstanding" or
some kind
> of public relations ploy. Hopefully he now understands a bit more fully
> since the books have (with the possible exception of a very few) ALL
been
> given away.
>
> What would it take to renew this effort? US! Possibly someone
like Norm
> (or anyone with the time and ability) would be willing to act as a
point of
> contact to collect money for a reprint of the book. There ARE a few
> references in the last few pages that would either have to be updated or
> eliminated.
>
> THIS would be a positive action, and, I believe, a message to that
> corporation which uses the name of Alcoholics Anonymous in their
business
> ventures. How about it? Any takers? This "intellectual property"
(OUR Big
> Book) is already in the public domain. All we need is ACTION.
>
> G' Bless,
>
> Al C."
>





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