///MY RESPONSES ARE WITHIN YOUR POST///:--- In
Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, Alex Pilosov <alex@...> wrote:
>
> Lazur,
>
> I think we've beat horse to death on this topic.///AGREED!///
> All I was trying to say that prolonged 90 second hold has a higher
> risk of deteriorating effect on health in short and long-term
> comparing to 5 second hold. /////Fine, just keep in mind that in real life
there -isn't- a 90 second protocol in common use, and the possible protocols are
VERY different from one-another, thus the THEORETICAL negative impacts would
also be very different.///That's it. And that everyone will have
> different degree of that negative impact based on many factors in
> their genetic makeup and lifestyles. As most of potential trainees are//Also
fine, just don't blame the training for the effects of the lifestyle.///
> average in their genes and lifestyles it's better to limit the
> training to less rather than more so when choosing between 90 seconds
> and 5second HIT - I would definitely vote for 5 if I were concerned
> with overall fitness and longevity.///Do as you please, just realize that
there is ZERO sample of an otherwise healthy population to support your view.///
>
> PS: If you really feel that permanently expanded veins///EXPANDED veins? I
NEVER said that, I said LARGE veins. Some guys just have them. When not cause by
varicosity,(or whatever else you come up with), large veins are just fine, even
better than small./// are good for
> health - god speed with 90 second hold and other HIT experimentation.
>
> Alex
>
> On 7/2/09, mrkllyd <lazur@...> wrote:
> > ///Comments within your text///--- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com,
> > Alex Pilosov <alex@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mike,
> >>
> >> Have you ever seen permanently "vasculized" veins of people who were
> >> making living by performimng heavy physical work all their
> >> lives?///Alex,are you now implying that HIT also causes VARICOSE VEINS? If
> >> not, the fact that you don't like the looks of some laborer's huge veins
> >> is meaningless, subject to bad diet, drinking, smoking, breath-holding, &
> >> over-work, all common in the average laborers life,(and often even a good
> >> thing: Got a problem with large blood vessels?). In a bodybuilder's case,
> >> add steroids, HGH, diuretics, stress of being very overweight,(in spite of
> >> it being muscle),and unhealthy-low bodyfat levels... ALSO, there are
> >> plenty of identically-employed laborers & BBers who do NOT have such
> >> veins, so add GENETICS.///
> >> That is a permanent damage that doesn't go away.///ARE we talking about
> >> varicose veins? it fits your description. This will require new expantions
> >> from you.///
> >> Some bodybuilders get those permanently stretched out veins by their
> >> ealry 20ths.
> >> The same problem happens inside the body.
> >> You are right in that the body heals all internal micro-traumas
> >> rapidly: but quantity doesn't always represent the quality of work.
> >> Same mechanisms that cause the body to heal a big scattered wound with
> >> a lot of permanent scarring (and a small wound with no or very little
> >> scarring) work on the inside of our body as well. Cholesterol is in
> >> abundance in an average body and the body uses it to perform a dirty
> >> patching work - the larger the wound the uglier and the bigger is the
> >> scar.///Your conclusions are yours and yours alone, 'mixing and matching'
> >> research on cholesterol patching a effects on BP from heavy efforts. None
> >> of YOUR OWN SOURCES have reached your conclusions.///
> >> The damage on wall linings is directly proportional to the duration of
> >> high-intensity exercises. And it doesn't even matter how frequently
> >> you exercise with high-intencity - how long high-intencity lasts in
> >> one training session is much more important in terms of long-tems
> >> damage to cardio-vascular system.
> >> And two people performing the same high-intencity protocol - might
> >> have totally different results in terms of overall fitness - that
> >> depends on their differencies in genetics and lifestyles.///Sure,Alex:-)
> >> Show me ANY documentation of ANY significant population of otherwise
> >> healthy individuals who suffer as you claim.///
> >>
> >> MIT and SCT by definition are lying somewhere closer to the lower end
> >> of intensity (intencity in terms of negative effect on heart). So
> >> your///"By definition"???Why do -you- get to 'define' intensity as you
> >> pleaae? MIT is in fact MAXIMUM intensity.///
> >> results might be valid. High intencity strength training should be
> >> included in overall fitness program but should not be overdone (and it
> >> ///High Intensity Training has shortness & sparseness built into the
> >> program, it doesn't need you advice.///
> >> could be done very easily especially in a young age) - that's the key.
> >>
> >> When people start talking about 90 seconds holds - that's definetely
> >> on the wrong side for most.///This being the newest of the techniques
> >> discusssed here, & subject to some VERY DIFFERENT different ways of
> >> modifying effort,(2 examples:1/trainee starts at a lower effort, maintains
> >> same reading until effort becomes too great to maintain. 2/ Trainee give
> >> full effort which automaticly falls-off drasticly & quickly as set goes
> >> on). Each modality is subject to be judged on its own merits. For you to
> >> already have come a conclusion is merely building a new set of assumptions
> >> upon a previous set, purely subjective jungments masquerading as
> >> research'. ///
> >>
> >> Regarding that research on handgrip daily exercises - is it a hand
> >> grip exercises that were performed? Then what it had to do with
> >> high-intencity physical exercises (large 5 compound exercises we are
> >> generally talking about)? Working out a much smaller muscle group
> >> (forearm?) - isn't it almost like performing a short duration aerobic
> >> exercise with very minimal workload on heart and arteries?
> >>
> >> Alex
> >>
> >>
> >> On 7/1/09, Michael Hefner <Mike@> wrote:
> >> > I don't believe anyone here disagrees that breath holding during any
> >> > extreme
> >> > effort is 'short term' potentially dangerous. I've bracketed 'short
> >> > term'
> >> > for a reason. Have any of you seen/researched the U.S. Air force study
> >> > in
> >> > handgrip daily exercises that over time clearly demonstrate improved
> >> > blood
> >> > pressure control and implied general improvement in overall vascular
> >> > health?
> >> > This is high trialed and is now in deployment stage and beyond
> >> > reproach.
> >> >
> >> > Want to know why it works?
> >> >
> >> > The vascular constriction causes the micro-trauma to the blood vessels
> >> > (as
> >> > Alex states)in the constricted area causing (among other things) the
> >> > release
> >> > of significant NO2 to cause a decrease and regularizing overall blood
> >> > pressure. You should also be aware that the cellular turnover and repair
> >> > for
> >> > all blood vessels is very rapid. More so than any tissue other than
> >> > your
> >> > stomach lining. This means to me that any blood vessel trauma we create
> >> > in
> >> > our strength training is well repaired and strengthened before we
> >> > should
> >> > return to the targeted muscle group.
> >> >
> >> > Now extrapolate this vascular contriction over much more significant
> >> > areas
> >> > and forces, as would occur with MIT/SCT.
> >> >
> >> > I know for myself that my 155/90 of 2 yrs ago is now 130/80 with little
> >> > other change in lifestyle.
> >> >
> >> > I think the premise of "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger."
> >> > applies
> >> > here.
> >> >
> >> > Also you should realize that our type of training if executed to/near
> >> > fatigue point significantly increased vascularization. I've got to
> >> > think
> >> > this is a good thing, not bad.
> >> >
> >> > Thoughts?
> >> >
> >> > Mike Hefner
> >> > 1RepGym
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, smkyrouac <no_reply@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> One other risk from holding one's breath while exercising that I forgot
> >> >> to
> >> >> mention is an increase in intraocular pressure. This correlates with
> >> >> an
> >> >> increased risk of glaucoma. There are also documentation of cases of
> >> >> syncope with swimmers and snorkelers that could lead to drowning.
> >> >>
> >> >> Alex's theory on strenuous exercise causing micro trauma to blood
> >> >> vessel
> >> >> walls seems worth discussing and perhaps even some scientific studies.
> >> >> It
> >> >> some what parrellels studies on folic acid (thought to reduce certain
> >> >> risk
> >> >> factors associated with vessel wall scarring and plaque formation.) It
> >> >> would be interesting to get Dr. McDuff's opinion on this possibility.
> >> >> On a
> >> >> side note, if you watch Dr. McDuff's video demonstrations, note the
> >> >> breathing patterns. He seems to make sure that he is breathing quick
> >> >> regular breaths during the exertion.
> >> >>
> >> >> The point about needing a trainer to supervise form (as well as
> >> >> breathing
> >> >> and effort) also seems to be advocated by Dr. Dardeen. In fact Dr.
> >> >> Dardeen
> >> >> wrote an article that suggested that no one can train efficiently or
> >> >> effectively without a trainer. Thoughts?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, "mrkllyd" <lazur@> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Alex, You may have done alot of research, but the conclusions you've
> >> >> > drawn are not the consistent conclusions of research itself.
> >> >> > (Increased
> >> >> > negative cardio impact in otherwise healthy, drug-free, long-term
> >> >> > HIT'ees, NO, it ain't there. IT AINT THERE!) As far as "your' advise
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > keep high-intensity to a minimum, DUDE, THAT'S THE -FOUNDATION-
> >> >> > OF
> >> >> > HIGH-INTENSITY: do the MINIMUM that stimulates growth, and rest
> >> >> > until
> >> >> > the growth has occurred. --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com,
> >> >> > Alex
> >> >> > Pilosov <alex@> wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > What you have described talks about immediate danger that's
> >> >> > > inherited
> >> >> > > with any weight lifting protocol and with prolonged statics there
> >> >> > > is
> >> >> > > just a much higher risk of it happening.
> >> >> > > What I was talking about on the same topic was regarding the long
> >> >> > > term
> >> >> > > effect of any high intensity exercise in general.
> >> >> > > With any of high intensity exercise that causes heart to pump
> >> >> > > blood
> >> >> > > at
> >> >> > > accelerated rates and under adverse conditions the aorthas,
> >> >> > > artheries
> >> >> > > and veins around the heart get a multi-fold of damage
> >> >> > > (micro-traumas
> >> >> > > to the wall linings) that is ever possible under normal
> >> >> > > circumstances
> >> >> > > or with low-intensity aerobic exercise. The body is urged to heal
> >> >> > > that
> >> >> > > damage by patching it with cholesterol. While under normal
> >> >> > > circunstances this healing takes place properly with the
> >> >> > > high-intensity damage the body has no time to heal it the right
> >> >> > > way
> >> >> > > thus number of cardio-vascular problems many years later.
> >> >> > > Again it doesn't take a genious but high-intensity work should be
> >> >> > > minimized as much as possible - one of my original reasons of
> >> >> > > looking
> >> >> > > at SCT/MIT was exactly that - the minimized amount of
> >> >> > > high-intensity.
> >> >> > > That's one thing that will make SCT/MIT protocols possibly
> >> >> > > HEALTHIER
> >> >> > > than any other resistance training.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > I'm not advocating against high-intensity (I love it to an extent
> >> >> > > and
> >> >> > > still doing it) - I'm just sharing what I know about it (I've done
> >> >> > > a
> >> >> > > lot of research on it) and the remote concesequences of the
> >> >> > > high-intensity lifestyles we choose.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Alex
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > On 6/30/09, mrkllyd <lazur@> wrote:
> >> >> > > > I'm a proponent of free-breathing when strength training:
> >> >> > > > Regular
> >> >> > > > progress
> >> >> > > > is the issue, and regular progress can be made without
> >> >> > > > exhibiting
> >> >> > > > that last
> >> >> > > > bit of strength enabled by breath-holding. Nonetheless, in
> >> >> > > > addition
> >> >> > > > to many
> >> >> > > > trainees practicing breath-holding with the blessings of their
> >> >> > > > coaches, &
> >> >> > > > statisticly negligible ill effects, virtually every lift in
> >> >> > > > every
> >> >> > > > strength
> >> >> > > > competiton ,(powerlifting, Olympic lifting, strongman competitons
> >> >> > > > of
> >> >> > > > all
> >> >> > > > kinds), uses it. All strength-competition/cardio-related illness
> >> >> > > > &
> >> >> > > > death
> >> >> > > > thus far that -may- have been evidence against breath-holding
> >> >> > > > has
> >> >> > > > turned out
> >> >> > > > to be, in fact, drug-related. The *for some reason* for
> >> >> > > > breath-holding,
> >> >> > > > (without the more elaborate explanation): It makes you stronger
> >> >> > > > for
> >> >> > > > short
> >> >> > > > efforts. To paraphrase coach Mark Rippetoe: When you lift a car
> >> >> > > > off
> >> >> > > > your
> >> >> > > > friend's chest, you hold your breath.--- In
> >> >> > > > Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, smkyrouac <no_reply@> wrote:
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> True, Mrllyd, no trainee would typcially hold their breath with
> >> >> > > >> the
> >> >> > > >> statics for the whole 90 seconds. Trainers would be wise to
> >> >> > > >> tell
> >> >> > > >> trainees
> >> >> > > >> to keep breathing. (But for *some reason*, there are times when
> >> >> > > >> the
> >> >> > > >> subjects hold their breath. This is especially true on the short
> >> >> > > >> 6
> >> >> > > >> to 10
> >> >> > > >> second all out maximum holds.) The Valsalva maneuver may
> >> >> > > >> provide
> >> >> > > >> some
> >> >> > > >> explanation of the process and potential dangers.
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> The Valsalva maneuver occurs by forcible exhalation against a
> >> >> > > >> closed
> >> >> > > >> airway. this may be done in a medical exam as a test of cardiac
> >> >> > > >> function
> >> >> > > >> and autonomic nervous control of the heart. This test under a
> >> >> > > >> controlled
> >> >> > > >> environment should produce a typical or normal response
> >> >> > > >> pattern.
> >> >> > > >> Another
> >> >> > > >> example may be when a person attempts to "clear" their ears and
> >> >> > > >> sinuses.
> >> >> > > >> (An attempt to equalize pressure.) Most physicians will likely
> >> >> > > >> say
> >> >> > > >> that it
> >> >> > > >> is best that such attempts be performed in a monitored medical
> >> >> > > >> environment.
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> In sum, expiring against a closed glottis should elicit
> >> >> > > >> predictable
> >> >> > > >> cardiovascular responses. Blood pressure (systolic and
> >> >> > > >> diastolic)
> >> >> > > >> and
> >> >> > > >> pulse rate typically rise during a Valsalva's maneuver. Initial
> >> >> > > >> pressure
> >> >> > > >> from exertion while holding one's breath causes increased
> >> >> > > >> pressure
> >> >> > > >> inside
> >> >> > > >> the chest forcing blood out of the pulmonary circulation into
> >> >> > > >> the
> >> >> > > >> left
> >> >> > > >> atrium. This causes blood pressure to rise in a normal subject.
> >> >> > > >> (In
> >> >> > > >> a
> >> >> > > >> subject with cardiovascular disease, the result may trigger
> >> >> > > >> adverse
> >> >> > > >> cardiovascular problems due to too large of anj increase in
> >> >> > > >> presssure.)
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> Breath holding while straining may cause a reduction in venous
> >> >> > > >> return. In
> >> >> > > >> other words, the return of blood to the heart can be impeded by
> >> >> > > >> the
> >> >> > > >> pressure. This can actually reduce the output of the heart
> >> >> > > >> causing
> >> >> > > >> blood
> >> >> > > >> pressure to precipitously fall. The fall in blood pressure then
> >> >> > > >> causes
> >> >> > > >> blood vessels to constrict increasing blood pressure.(Despite
> >> >> > > >> blood
> >> >> > > >> pressure returning to a normal level, the cardiac output and
> >> >> > > >> blood
> >> >> > > >> flow
> >> >> > > >> can still remain low. Typically this causes the pulse rate to
> >> >> > > >> increase in
> >> >> > > >> order to meet blood flow needs.(In abnormal cases, heart rate
> >> >> > > >> can
> >> >> > > >> increase
> >> >> > > >> to the point of tachycardia.)
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> In the normal subject, when the breath is no longer held,
> >> >> > > >> pressure
> >> >> > > >> on the
> >> >> > > >> chest is released. The pulmonary vessels and the aorta
> >> >> > > >> re-expand.
> >> >> > > >> Blood
> >> >> > > >> pressure should then fall because decreased left ventricular
> >> >> > > >> function
> >> >> > > >> returns with an increased aortic volume. If no abnormalities
> >> >> > > >> exist,
> >> >> > > >> then
> >> >> > > >> cardiac output should increase back to normal.
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> However, when blood returns to the heart along with blood which
> >> >> > > >> has
> >> >> > > >> already been forced into the heart, there can be a rapid
> >> >> > > >> increase
> >> >> > > >> in
> >> >> > > >> cardiac output and of blood pressure. Then heart function
> >> >> > > >> should
> >> >> > > >> return to
> >> >> > > >> normal. Problems can occur when the response pattern does not
> >> >> > > >> occur in
> >> >> > > >> the normal fashion. In an abnormal patient, a sharp spike in
> >> >> > > >> blood
> >> >> > > >> pressure at any time can potentially cause rupture of an
> >> >> > > >> aneurysm,
> >> >> > > >> cardiac
> >> >> > > >> rhythm abnormalities, and even a myocardial infarction.
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> To be on the safe side, it appears that trainees should avoid
> >> >> > > >> holding
> >> >> > > >> their breath during any strenuous exercise. (Even swimmers
> >> >> > > >> exhale
> >> >> > > >> under
> >> >> > > >> water and regularly breath.) While I have not seen any
> >> >> > > >> quantifications of
> >> >> > > >> the risk, I think it remains sound advice to make sure trainees
> >> >> > > >> keep
> >> >> > > >> breathing even with short duration weight lifting or static
> >> >> > > >> holds.
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >> --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, "mrkllyd" <lazur@>
> >> >> > > >> wrote:
> >> >> > > >> >
> >> >> > > >> > 1/I can understand an instinctual moment here & there of
> >> >> > > >> > breath-holding
> >> >> > > >> > ,(screaming, shouting,grunting,and groaning count as partial
> >> >> > > >> > breath-holds, and must also be stopped), but I strongly doubt
> >> >> > > >> > that -any-
> >> >> > > >> > trainee has -ever- held their breath for the full 90 seconds,
> >> >> > > >> > and
> >> >> > > >> > even
> >> >> > > >> > more strongly doubt it occurring as a part of regular
> >> >> > > >> > training,(as Alex
> >> >> > > >> > seems to believe). 2/I see the logic of a possible connection
> >> >> > > >> > between
> >> >> > > >> > breath-holding and blood presure, but nonetheless, there's a
> >> >> > > >> > lot
> >> >> > > >> > of
> >> >> > > >> > breath-holding in weight training, and seemingly no related
> >> >> > > >> > problems
> >> >> > > >> > thus far. 3/These subjective feelings of energy the day
> >> >> > > >> > after,
> >> >> > > >> > (aside
> >> >> > > >> > from possibly just being irrelevant), may be negative: An
> >> >> > > >> > effort
> >> >> > > >> > big
> >> >> > > >> > enough to cause at least one day of 'down time' feeling is
> >> >> > > >> > likely
> >> >> > > >> > to
> >> >> > > >> > lead to greater progress than one that leaves a trainee 'full
> >> >> > > >> > of
> >> >> > > >> > energy'
> >> >> > > >> > the next day. --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com,
> >> >> > > >> > smkyrouac
> >> >> > > >> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> >> >> > > >> > >
> >> >> > > >> > >
> >> >> > > >> > > This forum is very helpful and interesting when it remains
> >> >> > > >> > > active. The
> >> >> > > >> > > points expressed by all of you are truly appreciated.
> >> >> > > >> > > James, I
> >> >> > > >> > > have
> >> >> > > >> > > seen some female trainees who have employed the 90 second
> >> >> > > >> > > hold
> >> >> > > >> > > at
> >> >> > > >> > > about 60% to 70% of maximum weight at a mid angle position.
> >> >> > > >> > > In
> >> >> > > >> > > my
> >> >> > > >> > > experience, The trainer should watch the subject carefully
> >> >> > > >> > > and
> >> >> > > >> > > insist
> >> >> > > >> > > that they continue to breath. (For some reason unknown to
> >> >> > > >> > > me,
> >> >> > > >> > > they do
> >> >> > > >> > > want to hold their breath at times which I believe
> >> >> > > >> > > unnecessarily
> >> >> > > >> > > increases the risk of high blood pressure and potentially
> >> >> > > >> > > other
> >> >> > > >> > > cardiovascular problems.)
> >> >> > > >> > >
> >> >> > > >> > > The mid angle position is not typically used on the leg
> >> >> > > >> > > press
> >> >> > > >> > > for the
> >> >> > > >> > > prolonged hold. Rather, we used about 2 to 3 inches from
> >> >> > > >> > > lock
> >> >> > > >> > > out with
> >> >> > > >> > > the subject up on the toes. When I first tried this
> >> >> > > >> > > technique
> >> >> > > >> > > with
> >> >> > > >> > > some females, I was impressed by the effort exerted. But
> >> >> > > >> > > what
> >> >> > > >> > > truly
> >> >> > > >> > > surprised me was how great they said that they felt the
> >> >> > > >> > > next
> >> >> > > >> > > day. I
> >> >> > > >> > > heard trainees talk about subjective feelings of more
> >> >> > > >> > > energy
> >> >> > > >> > > and
> >> >> > > >> > > endurance. I even had to ask two of them not to run as
> >> >> > > >> > > they
> >> >> > > >> > > had felt
> >> >> > > >> > > so good they insisted on a training run the first day post
> >> >> > > >> > > work
> >> >> > > >> > > out.
> >> >> > > >> > > (One of the trainees is an outstanding track athlete.) A
> >> >> > > >> > > post
> >> >> > > >> > > training
> >> >> > > >> > > work out so soon, in my view, would most likely interfere
> >> >> > > >> > > with
> >> >> > > >> > > the
> >> >> > > >> > > recovery phase. Finally, by training on some days with
> >> >> > > >> > > multi
> >> >> > > >> > > angle 6
> >> >> > > >> > > to 10 second holds at maximum force and on other days with
> >> >> > > >> > > prolonged
> >> >> > > >> > > 90 second holds, the female trainees improved their static
> >> >> > > >> > > strength
> >> >> > > >> > > (perhaps through cns) without gaining bulky tissue. (The
> >> >> > > >> > > average
> >> >> > > >> > > trainee had a static workout every 6.5 days.) They were
> >> >> > > >> > > generally
> >> >> > > >> > > pleased with their training experience after 9 weeks. After
> >> >> > > >> > > you
> >> >> > > >> > > try
> >> >> > > >> > > your protocol, please share your results.
> >> >> > > >> > >
> >> >> > > >> > >
> >> >> > > >> > >
> >> >> > > >> > > --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, "mrkllyd"
> >> >> > > >> > > <lazur@>
> >> >> > > >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > > >> > > >
> >> >> > > >> > > > Right. Possible inroad from a 90 static all-out effort
> >> >> > > >> > > > could
> >> >> > > >> > > > be
> >> >> > > >> > > > debilitating, requiring more down-time than optimal.
> >> >> > > >> > > > Your
> >> >> > > >> > > > idea
> >> >> > > >> > > > sounds like a worthwhile experiment.
> >> >> > > >> > > >
> >> >> > > >> > >
> >> >> > > >> >
> >> >> > > >>
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>