///Comments within your text///--- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, Alex
Pilosov <alex@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Have you ever seen permanently "vasculized" veins of people who were
> making living by performimng heavy physical work all their lives?///Alex,are
you now implying that HIT also causes VARICOSE VEINS? If not, the fact that you
don't like the looks of some laborer's huge veins is meaningless, subject to
bad diet, drinking, smoking, breath-holding, & over-work, all common in the
average laborers life,(and often even a good thing: Got a problem with large
blood vessels?). In a bodybuilder's case, add steroids, HGH, diuretics, stress
of being very overweight,(in spite of it being muscle),and unhealthy-low bodyfat
levels... ALSO, there are plenty of identically-employed laborers & BBers who do
NOT have such veins, so add GENETICS.///
> That is a permanent damage that doesn't go away.///ARE we talking about
varicose veins? it fits your description. This will require new expantions from
you.///
> Some bodybuilders get those permanently stretched out veins by their
> ealry 20ths.
> The same problem happens inside the body.
> You are right in that the body heals all internal micro-traumas
> rapidly: but quantity doesn't always represent the quality of work.
> Same mechanisms that cause the body to heal a big scattered wound with
> a lot of permanent scarring (and a small wound with no or very little
> scarring) work on the inside of our body as well. Cholesterol is in
> abundance in an average body and the body uses it to perform a dirty
> patching work - the larger the wound the uglier and the bigger is the
> scar.///Your conclusions are yours and yours alone, 'mixing and matching'
research on cholesterol patching a effects on BP from heavy efforts. None of
YOUR OWN SOURCES have reached your conclusions.///
> The damage on wall linings is directly proportional to the duration of
> high-intensity exercises. And it doesn't even matter how frequently
> you exercise with high-intencity - how long high-intencity lasts in
> one training session is much more important in terms of long-tems
> damage to cardio-vascular system.
> And two people performing the same high-intencity protocol - might
> have totally different results in terms of overall fitness - that
> depends on their differencies in genetics and lifestyles.///Sure,Alex:-) Show
me ANY documentation of ANY significant population of otherwise healthy
individuals who suffer as you claim.///
>
> MIT and SCT by definition are lying somewhere closer to the lower end
> of intensity (intencity in terms of negative effect on heart). So your///"By
definition"???Why do -you- get to 'define' intensity as you pleaae? MIT is in
fact MAXIMUM intensity.///
> results might be valid. High intencity strength training should be
> included in overall fitness program but should not be overdone (and it ///High
Intensity Training has shortness & sparseness built into the program, it doesn't
need you advice.///
> could be done very easily especially in a young age) - that's the key.
>
> When people start talking about 90 seconds holds - that's definetely
> on the wrong side for most.///This being the newest of the techniques
discusssed here, & subject to some VERY DIFFERENT different ways of modifying
effort,(2 examples:1/trainee starts at a lower effort, maintains same reading
until effort becomes too great to maintain. 2/ Trainee give full effort which
automaticly falls-off drasticly & quickly as set goes on). Each modality is
subject to be judged on its own merits. For you to already have come a
conclusion is merely building a new set of assumptions upon a previous set,
purely subjective jungments masquerading as research'. ///
>
> Regarding that research on handgrip daily exercises - is it a hand
> grip exercises that were performed? Then what it had to do with
> high-intencity physical exercises (large 5 compound exercises we are
> generally talking about)? Working out a much smaller muscle group
> (forearm?) - isn't it almost like performing a short duration aerobic
> exercise with very minimal workload on heart and arteries?
>
> Alex
>
>
> On 7/1/09, Michael Hefner <Mike@...> wrote:
> > I don't believe anyone here disagrees that breath holding during any extreme
> > effort is 'short term' potentially dangerous. I've bracketed 'short term'
> > for a reason. Have any of you seen/researched the U.S. Air force study in
> > handgrip daily exercises that over time clearly demonstrate improved blood
> > pressure control and implied general improvement in overall vascular health?
> > This is high trialed and is now in deployment stage and beyond reproach.
> >
> > Want to know why it works?
> >
> > The vascular constriction causes the micro-trauma to the blood vessels (as
> > Alex states)in the constricted area causing (among other things) the release
> > of significant NO2 to cause a decrease and regularizing overall blood
> > pressure. You should also be aware that the cellular turnover and repair for
> > all blood vessels is very rapid. More so than any tissue other than your
> > stomach lining. This means to me that any blood vessel trauma we create in
> > our strength training is well repaired and strengthened before we should
> > return to the targeted muscle group.
> >
> > Now extrapolate this vascular contriction over much more significant areas
> > and forces, as would occur with MIT/SCT.
> >
> > I know for myself that my 155/90 of 2 yrs ago is now 130/80 with little
> > other change in lifestyle.
> >
> > I think the premise of "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger." applies
> > here.
> >
> > Also you should realize that our type of training if executed to/near
> > fatigue point significantly increased vascularization. I've got to think
> > this is a good thing, not bad.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Mike Hefner
> > 1RepGym
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, smkyrouac <no_reply@> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> One other risk from holding one's breath while exercising that I forgot to
> >> mention is an increase in intraocular pressure. This correlates with an
> >> increased risk of glaucoma. There are also documentation of cases of
> >> syncope with swimmers and snorkelers that could lead to drowning.
> >>
> >> Alex's theory on strenuous exercise causing micro trauma to blood vessel
> >> walls seems worth discussing and perhaps even some scientific studies. It
> >> some what parrellels studies on folic acid (thought to reduce certain risk
> >> factors associated with vessel wall scarring and plaque formation.) It
> >> would be interesting to get Dr. McDuff's opinion on this possibility. On a
> >> side note, if you watch Dr. McDuff's video demonstrations, note the
> >> breathing patterns. He seems to make sure that he is breathing quick
> >> regular breaths during the exertion.
> >>
> >> The point about needing a trainer to supervise form (as well as breathing
> >> and effort) also seems to be advocated by Dr. Dardeen. In fact Dr. Dardeen
> >> wrote an article that suggested that no one can train efficiently or
> >> effectively without a trainer. Thoughts?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, "mrkllyd" <lazur@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Alex, You may have done alot of research, but the conclusions you've
> >> > drawn are not the consistent conclusions of research itself. (Increased
> >> > negative cardio impact in otherwise healthy, drug-free, long-term
> >> > HIT'ees, NO, it ain't there. IT AINT THERE!) As far as "your' advise to
> >> > keep high-intensity to a minimum, DUDE, THAT'S THE -FOUNDATION- OF
> >> > HIGH-INTENSITY: do the MINIMUM that stimulates growth, and rest until
> >> > the growth has occurred. --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, Alex
> >> > Pilosov <alex@> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > What you have described talks about immediate danger that's inherited
> >> > > with any weight lifting protocol and with prolonged statics there is
> >> > > just a much higher risk of it happening.
> >> > > What I was talking about on the same topic was regarding the long
> >> > > term
> >> > > effect of any high intensity exercise in general.
> >> > > With any of high intensity exercise that causes heart to pump blood
> >> > > at
> >> > > accelerated rates and under adverse conditions the aorthas, artheries
> >> > > and veins around the heart get a multi-fold of damage (micro-traumas
> >> > > to the wall linings) that is ever possible under normal circumstances
> >> > > or with low-intensity aerobic exercise. The body is urged to heal
> >> > > that
> >> > > damage by patching it with cholesterol. While under normal
> >> > > circunstances this healing takes place properly with the
> >> > > high-intensity damage the body has no time to heal it the right way
> >> > > thus number of cardio-vascular problems many years later.
> >> > > Again it doesn't take a genious but high-intensity work should be
> >> > > minimized as much as possible - one of my original reasons of looking
> >> > > at SCT/MIT was exactly that - the minimized amount of high-intensity.
> >> > > That's one thing that will make SCT/MIT protocols possibly HEALTHIER
> >> > > than any other resistance training.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm not advocating against high-intensity (I love it to an extent and
> >> > > still doing it) - I'm just sharing what I know about it (I've done a
> >> > > lot of research on it) and the remote concesequences of the
> >> > > high-intensity lifestyles we choose.
> >> > >
> >> > > Alex
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On 6/30/09, mrkllyd <lazur@> wrote:
> >> > > > I'm a proponent of free-breathing when strength training: Regular
> >> > > > progress
> >> > > > is the issue, and regular progress can be made without exhibiting
> >> > > > that last
> >> > > > bit of strength enabled by breath-holding. Nonetheless, in addition
> >> > > > to many
> >> > > > trainees practicing breath-holding with the blessings of their
> >> > > > coaches, &
> >> > > > statisticly negligible ill effects, virtually every lift in every
> >> > > > strength
> >> > > > competiton ,(powerlifting, Olympic lifting, strongman competitons of
> >> > > > all
> >> > > > kinds), uses it. All strength-competition/cardio-related illness &
> >> > > > death
> >> > > > thus far that -may- have been evidence against breath-holding has
> >> > > > turned out
> >> > > > to be, in fact, drug-related. The *for some reason* for
> >> > > > breath-holding,
> >> > > > (without the more elaborate explanation): It makes you stronger for
> >> > > > short
> >> > > > efforts. To paraphrase coach Mark Rippetoe: When you lift a car off
> >> > > > your
> >> > > > friend's chest, you hold your breath.--- In
> >> > > > Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, smkyrouac <no_reply@> wrote:
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> True, Mrllyd, no trainee would typcially hold their breath with
> >> > > >> the
> >> > > >> statics for the whole 90 seconds. Trainers would be wise to tell
> >> > > >> trainees
> >> > > >> to keep breathing. (But for *some reason*, there are times when
> >> > > >> the
> >> > > >> subjects hold their breath. This is especially true on the short 6
> >> > > >> to 10
> >> > > >> second all out maximum holds.) The Valsalva maneuver may provide
> >> > > >> some
> >> > > >> explanation of the process and potential dangers.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> The Valsalva maneuver occurs by forcible exhalation against a
> >> > > >> closed
> >> > > >> airway. this may be done in a medical exam as a test of cardiac
> >> > > >> function
> >> > > >> and autonomic nervous control of the heart. This test under a
> >> > > >> controlled
> >> > > >> environment should produce a typical or normal response pattern.
> >> > > >> Another
> >> > > >> example may be when a person attempts to "clear" their ears and
> >> > > >> sinuses.
> >> > > >> (An attempt to equalize pressure.) Most physicians will likely say
> >> > > >> that it
> >> > > >> is best that such attempts be performed in a monitored medical
> >> > > >> environment.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> In sum, expiring against a closed glottis should elicit
> >> > > >> predictable
> >> > > >> cardiovascular responses. Blood pressure (systolic and diastolic)
> >> > > >> and
> >> > > >> pulse rate typically rise during a Valsalva's maneuver. Initial
> >> > > >> pressure
> >> > > >> from exertion while holding one's breath causes increased pressure
> >> > > >> inside
> >> > > >> the chest forcing blood out of the pulmonary circulation into the
> >> > > >> left
> >> > > >> atrium. This causes blood pressure to rise in a normal subject. (In
> >> > > >> a
> >> > > >> subject with cardiovascular disease, the result may trigger
> >> > > >> adverse
> >> > > >> cardiovascular problems due to too large of anj increase in
> >> > > >> presssure.)
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> Breath holding while straining may cause a reduction in venous
> >> > > >> return. In
> >> > > >> other words, the return of blood to the heart can be impeded by
> >> > > >> the
> >> > > >> pressure. This can actually reduce the output of the heart causing
> >> > > >> blood
> >> > > >> pressure to precipitously fall. The fall in blood pressure then
> >> > > >> causes
> >> > > >> blood vessels to constrict increasing blood pressure.(Despite
> >> > > >> blood
> >> > > >> pressure returning to a normal level, the cardiac output and blood
> >> > > >> flow
> >> > > >> can still remain low. Typically this causes the pulse rate to
> >> > > >> increase in
> >> > > >> order to meet blood flow needs.(In abnormal cases, heart rate can
> >> > > >> increase
> >> > > >> to the point of tachycardia.)
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> In the normal subject, when the breath is no longer held, pressure
> >> > > >> on the
> >> > > >> chest is released. The pulmonary vessels and the aorta re-expand.
> >> > > >> Blood
> >> > > >> pressure should then fall because decreased left ventricular
> >> > > >> function
> >> > > >> returns with an increased aortic volume. If no abnormalities exist,
> >> > > >> then
> >> > > >> cardiac output should increase back to normal.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> However, when blood returns to the heart along with blood which
> >> > > >> has
> >> > > >> already been forced into the heart, there can be a rapid increase
> >> > > >> in
> >> > > >> cardiac output and of blood pressure. Then heart function should
> >> > > >> return to
> >> > > >> normal. Problems can occur when the response pattern does not
> >> > > >> occur in
> >> > > >> the normal fashion. In an abnormal patient, a sharp spike in blood
> >> > > >> pressure at any time can potentially cause rupture of an aneurysm,
> >> > > >> cardiac
> >> > > >> rhythm abnormalities, and even a myocardial infarction.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> To be on the safe side, it appears that trainees should avoid
> >> > > >> holding
> >> > > >> their breath during any strenuous exercise. (Even swimmers exhale
> >> > > >> under
> >> > > >> water and regularly breath.) While I have not seen any
> >> > > >> quantifications of
> >> > > >> the risk, I think it remains sound advice to make sure trainees
> >> > > >> keep
> >> > > >> breathing even with short duration weight lifting or static holds.
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, "mrkllyd" <lazur@>
> >> > > >> wrote:
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >> > 1/I can understand an instinctual moment here & there of
> >> > > >> > breath-holding
> >> > > >> > ,(screaming, shouting,grunting,and groaning count as partial
> >> > > >> > breath-holds, and must also be stopped), but I strongly doubt
> >> > > >> > that -any-
> >> > > >> > trainee has -ever- held their breath for the full 90 seconds, and
> >> > > >> > even
> >> > > >> > more strongly doubt it occurring as a part of regular
> >> > > >> > training,(as Alex
> >> > > >> > seems to believe). 2/I see the logic of a possible connection
> >> > > >> > between
> >> > > >> > breath-holding and blood presure, but nonetheless, there's a lot
> >> > > >> > of
> >> > > >> > breath-holding in weight training, and seemingly no related
> >> > > >> > problems
> >> > > >> > thus far. 3/These subjective feelings of energy the day after,
> >> > > >> > (aside
> >> > > >> > from possibly just being irrelevant), may be negative: An effort
> >> > > >> > big
> >> > > >> > enough to cause at least one day of 'down time' feeling is likely
> >> > > >> > to
> >> > > >> > lead to greater progress than one that leaves a trainee 'full of
> >> > > >> > energy'
> >> > > >> > the next day. --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com,
> >> > > >> > smkyrouac
> >> > > >> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > > This forum is very helpful and interesting when it remains
> >> > > >> > > active. The
> >> > > >> > > points expressed by all of you are truly appreciated. James, I
> >> > > >> > > have
> >> > > >> > > seen some female trainees who have employed the 90 second hold
> >> > > >> > > at
> >> > > >> > > about 60% to 70% of maximum weight at a mid angle position. In
> >> > > >> > > my
> >> > > >> > > experience, The trainer should watch the subject carefully and
> >> > > >> > > insist
> >> > > >> > > that they continue to breath. (For some reason unknown to me,
> >> > > >> > > they do
> >> > > >> > > want to hold their breath at times which I believe
> >> > > >> > > unnecessarily
> >> > > >> > > increases the risk of high blood pressure and potentially
> >> > > >> > > other
> >> > > >> > > cardiovascular problems.)
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > > The mid angle position is not typically used on the leg press
> >> > > >> > > for the
> >> > > >> > > prolonged hold. Rather, we used about 2 to 3 inches from lock
> >> > > >> > > out with
> >> > > >> > > the subject up on the toes. When I first tried this technique
> >> > > >> > > with
> >> > > >> > > some females, I was impressed by the effort exerted. But what
> >> > > >> > > truly
> >> > > >> > > surprised me was how great they said that they felt the next
> >> > > >> > > day. I
> >> > > >> > > heard trainees talk about subjective feelings of more energy
> >> > > >> > > and
> >> > > >> > > endurance. I even had to ask two of them not to run as they
> >> > > >> > > had felt
> >> > > >> > > so good they insisted on a training run the first day post work
> >> > > >> > > out.
> >> > > >> > > (One of the trainees is an outstanding track athlete.) A post
> >> > > >> > > training
> >> > > >> > > work out so soon, in my view, would most likely interfere with
> >> > > >> > > the
> >> > > >> > > recovery phase. Finally, by training on some days with multi
> >> > > >> > > angle 6
> >> > > >> > > to 10 second holds at maximum force and on other days with
> >> > > >> > > prolonged
> >> > > >> > > 90 second holds, the female trainees improved their static
> >> > > >> > > strength
> >> > > >> > > (perhaps through cns) without gaining bulky tissue. (The
> >> > > >> > > average
> >> > > >> > > trainee had a static workout every 6.5 days.) They were
> >> > > >> > > generally
> >> > > >> > > pleased with their training experience after 9 weeks. After you
> >> > > >> > > try
> >> > > >> > > your protocol, please share your results.
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> > > --- In Explosive_Fitness@yahoogroups.com, "mrkllyd" <lazur@>
> >> > > >> > > wrote:
> >> > > >> > > >
> >> > > >> > > > Right. Possible inroad from a 90 static all-out effort could
> >> > > >> > > > be
> >> > > >> > > > debilitating, requiring more down-time than optimal. Your
> >> > > >> > > > idea
> >> > > >> > > > sounds like a worthwhile experiment.
> >> > > >> > > >
> >> > > >> > >
> >> > > >> >
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>