CoDependents : Messages : 5529-5558 of 7688

Hi, Claudia... Thanks for the question -

I always thought by now I'd have been married 15 years or so with
several children.  I thought I'd have my own family.  That's what I
imagined for myself.  Making that a reality seems impossible at this
point in my life.  I'm 38... not in a relationship (evidently have no
idea what even constitues a healthy relationship)... and my baby-
having days are pretty much behind me...  So I feel like I'm grieving
that - the life that I imagined for myself - which makes this love
addict/codependent thing that much more painful... I've wasted so much
of my life in poor choices... and now I've run out of time.

Stacy

--- In CoDependents@yahoogroups.com, "yougogrl40" <yougogrl40@...>
wrote:
>
> Hi Stacy :)
> you wrote this: <<and this is NOT the life I wanted or imagined for
> myself.>>
>
> What life do you imagine for yourself? What steps do you think you
> need to take in order to move that life from imagination to reality?
>
> Claudia

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#5557

From: AZTerri@...
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:04 pm
Subject: MYTHS ABOUT LESBIAN ABUSE

arizona_terri

Offline

MYTHS ABOUT LESBIAN ABUSE

Women don't hurt or hit other women!
Partner abuse is about control. Hitting is used to maintain control in a relationship. Verbal, emotional, and economic abuse are used to maintain control in a relationship, and can be just as powerful and devastating weapons.

Women only abuse when high or drunk.
Partner abuse is not the result of addiction, it's a behavioral choice. There are many abusers who don't use and many substance addicts who don't abuse. Getting clean and sober is no guarantee of your safety.

Only "butch" women abuse.
Blaming abusive behavior on being butch is both insulting to butches and plain denial. While some butches abuse, so do some femmes. You and/or your abuser may identify as butch, femme, or neither. Partner abuse can happen in all kinds of relationships, regardless of sexual identity, gender identity, or gender presentation.

A woman would never sexually abuse another woman.
No one wants or likes to be raped or abused. Although some batterers may say their abusive behavior is really just part of an s/m scene, s/m requires the consent of all involved, and a scene can be stopped by any participant at any time. If your partner is disrespectful of your limits, ignores your safe word, or violates your boundaries, it's not s/m - it's abuse.

Only the physically bigger, stronger woman in the relationship abuses.
Partner abuse is about control, not size or strength. There is no way to tell by looking at a couple who is the abuser and who is abused.

Women who promise to never do it again/to get help always keep their word.
Abusers may seem remorseful or promise to change after an incident, but often these promises are only attempts to keep you from leaving. Real change requires taking full responsibility for the abuse and committing to non-abusive behavior whether or not you stay together. This kind of change doesn't happen overnight (if at all) and usually requires the help of a state certified program for batterers. Couples counseling does not help abusers stop abusing, and can actually be dangerous for you.

Women deny being abusive by claiming women are too "nice" by nature.
Abusers can be charming, wonderful, caring, fun people. If they weren't, no one would go out with them. Just because they can be nice doesn't mean they can't be abusive, and it doesn't make the abuse okay.

Women are safe dating each other.
Abuse occurs in relationships between women as often as in straight relationships, and women have been seriously injured and killed by their female partners.

Women don't scare or threaten other women.
Abusers can use lesbianism as a tactic of control; threatening to "out" you or insisting no one will believe you are being abused by another woman. No matter what your partner says, you don't deserve to be abused, and help is available!

"From ghoulies and ghosties,
Long-leggety beasties,
And things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord, deliver us!" - Anonymous

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#5556

From: AZTerri@...
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:36 pm
Subject: Myths About Divorced Fathers

arizona_terri

Offline

*Remember: if noticed, posts are not approved which perpetuate gender myths. On the other hand, articles and posts will go through that break through (abusive or unempowering) stereotypes...

Myths About Divorced Fathers

Arizona State University psychologists Sanford Braver and Diane O'Connell have researched and written a book that shatters many of the myths about divorced fathers that have saturated the popular media and our popular culture. Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths (Penguin Putnam), written by Arizona State University psychologist Sanford Braver with Diane O'Connell, is a powerful and well-documented brief in defense of divorced fathers . Braver, who has conducted an eight-year study of parents after divorce, knocks down the stereotypes one by one.

MYTH NO. 1: Men are the ones who want to leave the marriage and initiate most divorces and it is usually because of an extramarital involvement.

REALITY: The reality is that women initiate between 65% and 80% of all divorces over the objections of their husbands. Further, among all causes for divorce an affair ranks sixth. Abuse - whether alcohol, violence, or drug-related - doesn't show up until the eleventh cause. When a wife divorces her husband for reasons such as a "gradual growing apart" or "serious differences in lifestyle" (the top two reasons!) and takes the kids with her, her ex-husband truly has been disenfranchised - and left powerless.

At least two-thirds of the time, the mother is the one who files for divorce and who wants out of the marriage. And it's usually not because the father beats her, drinks or cheats. Most commonly, mothers cite such reasons as "growing apart" or "not feeling loved or appreciated."

MYTH NO. 2: Divorced fathers desert their children emotionally and financially.

REALITY: The great majority fathers who are steadily employed consistently pay child support (their record is especially impressive if one looks not only at mothers' reports, on which most statistics are based, but at fathers' own reports) and work to stay in their children's lives. So-called "runaway dads" are often "driven-away dads" whose ex-wives keep them away. This causes many a divorced father to experience total alienation from their own children, and deprives children from having the love and nurturing of two loving parents.

Even if you ask mothers how often fathers desert their children emotionally and financially, only 12 percent attempt to claim that their ex-husbands voluntarily refuse to visit and spend time with their children. If you ask fathers, only three percent claim that they voluntarily miss time they should have with their children. In fact, a quarter of mothers admit they interfere with or deny entirely the children's father's access to their kids!

The truth is that only one in six fathers get the custodial arrangements they wanted, according to a study done by Sanford Braver, PhD (Arizona State University). A study done by Stanford University in the late 1980s showed the same thing - close to 70% of fathers wanted either joint or sole physical custody.

Statistically speaking, fathers don't abandon their children - they are forced out following divorce by the mothers of those children, usually without justification or legally-relavent cause.

MYTH NO. 3: Divorced fathers benefit economically from divorce.

REALITY: The famous factoid from Lenore Weitzman's 1985 book " The Divorce Revolution: The Unexpected Social and Economic Consequences for Women and Children in America" that women's standard of living drops 73 percent in the year after divorce, that of men goes up 42 percent--was exposed as erroneous years ago.

This work has been thoroughly discredited - not only were there simple mathematical errors in her calculations but her methodology was fatally flawed. Yet it took her eleven years to publicly admit to these mistakes - an event that finally occurred in 1996 in American Sociological Review. The problem with this is that a huge number of states - virtually all - have upwardly revised their child support guidelines by using and citing this work - a work which was and is an admitted fraud! But her critics' alternative calculations still showed a drop for women and a rise for men. All those researchers, Braver shows, made one big mistake: they didn't factor in the tax code, which favors the single custodial parent. They also omitted such things as the father's spending on children during visitation. After these adjustments, the economic effects of divorce are similar for both sexes; mothers may even have a slight advantage.

Indeed, even today we see people cite this book as "proof" that child support awards are too infrequently collected and too small to begin with. Not one major media outlet has paraded the truth about this "study" - that is was and is patently incorrect both in its methodology and simple command of mathematics.

MYTH NO. 4: Deadbeat Dads are common - most men don't pay their child support.

REALITY: Somewhere between 80 and 100% of men who are employed pay all their ordered child support, depending on who you ask. Even mothers (who are clearly biased against honest reporting in this area) report that 80% of fathers who are employed pay all that they owe. One must ask, of course, how you can expect a man who doesn't have an income to pay child support.

The huge majority of men who do not pay their child support are either (1) unemployed, (2) in prison, or (3) dead - literally. It is impossible, of course, to collect child support from any of these men, as they are unable to pay. Florida discovered this when they spend more than $4 million and collected a paltry couple of hundred thousand - proof positive that you can't enforce payment in the event that the obligor simply doesn't have the money - or isn't even breathing.

Weitzman and other feminist scholars have claimed that divorce settlements are tilted in favor of fathers because men are favored by a male-dominated system and are more aggressive negotiators. Yet on average, mothers are more satisfied with divorce settlements than fathers. Ten percent of mothers in Braver's sample thought the system was slanted in favor of fathers, while 75 percent of fathers thought it was slanted in favor of mothers--and more than a quarter of mothers agreed!

MYTH NO. 5: Divorce settlements are tilted in favor of fathers.

REALITY: Weitzman and other feminist scholars have claimed that divorce settlements are tilted in favor of fathers because men are favored by a male-dominated system and are more aggressive negotiators. Yet on average, mothers are more satisfied with divorce settlements than fathers. Ten percent of mothers in Braver's sample thought the system was slanted in favor of fathers, while 75 percent of fathers thought it was slanted in favor of mothers--and more than a quarter of mothers agreed!

MYTH NO. 6: Men make up the bulk of domestic abusers and thus all allegations of domestic violence against them are credible.

REALITY: WOMEN are in fact the majority of domestic abusers. The percentage is not very different - 55% women to 45% men, according to the most credible and recent studies in both the US and Australia. Further, controlling for the severity of violence (ie: hit with hand, used weapon, threw object, etc) women still out-abuse men by a small percentage. Yet, virtually all domestic violence "programs" and laws suggest - and often outright state - that women simply don't perpetrate any domestic violence! This is pure propaganda for the sake of "political correctness".

(The "dirty little secret" in all of this is that the highest incidence of domestic violence is among lesbian couples. By definition there isn't a man in those households. If men were in fact the perpetrators of most domestic violence we would expect to see virtually no violence in lesbian households. Rather, on a percentage-of-household basis, they account for the largest percentage of such incidents among all household compositions.)

MYTH NO. 7: Children are most often physically and sexually abused by their fathers.

REALITY: Children are most likely to be physically abused by their mothers, and are more than twice as likely to be killed by their mothers than their biological fathers. They are most likely to be abused sexually by their stepfathers or mother's boyfriends - men who were invited into their home by their mothers! We could eliminate the majority of sexual abuse of children by refusing to allow a child to reside in his mother's home if she has a live-in lover or remarries.

However, unlike many "pressure groups" we do not advocate separating kids from their biological parents under any circumstance unless it can be proven that they are in actual danger of harm.

MYTH NO. 8: Child Support is for the children and has to be spent on their health, well-being and care.

REALITY: Not one state in the US requires recipients of child support to actually prove that the amounts received are:

necessary to meet the children's needs or
are actually spent on the children.

A number of states, in fact, actually document in their laws that part of the purpose of child support is to protect the standard of living of the custodial parent - almost always the mother - which would have existed had the divorce not taken place. If child support were actually for the children then a payer would be able to demand documentation that 1) the amount paid was actually necessary for the children's needs, and 2) was actually spent exclusively on the children.

In fact, one may reasonably wonder just what "child support" is really for, especially in the case where parents have joint physical custody. In most states, the presence of Joint Custody has very little, if any, impact on the award of child support - even though such practices appear to fly in the face of logic and the divorce statutes as written in many of these situations.

Braver, Sanford & Diane O'Connell, Divorced Dads: Shattering the Myths, The uprising truth about fathers, children and divorce. Millions of mothers, fathers, lawyers, judges and in many cases, second spouses rely on today's prevailing wisdom on divorce to create the best possible child-rearing arrangements after parents separate. But what if most of the "known facts" about fathers, children and divorce - the very material on which many of these arrangements rest - are flatly wrong, the result of glaring errors, sloppy studies or faulty research? In this revolutionary work, the author, who led the largest federally funded study ever on issues confronting divorced fathers - shows how millions of well-intentioned parents, judges, lawyers, educators and other caregivers have been repeatedly and tragically misled by the most widely accepted social data about divorce and parenthood. Writing with deep compassion and a constant understanding of the needs of both parents, the author unravels the six myths commonly held about divorce and divorced fathers. He explains that when divorced fathers do disconnect from their children, they often do so because they feel they are "parentally disenfranchised" by the divorce system now in place. This book posits a new, more hopeful idea of how parenting can function after a split, with the more active participation of a father figure who is often hidden from view: someone with deep emotional and financial commitment to his children, whose presence can ease the trials of divorce for both child and mother. Jeremy

"From ghoulies and ghosties,
Long-leggety beasties,
And things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord, deliver us!" - Anonymous

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#5555

From: "Fishtail1776 $Julie$" <fishtail1776@...>
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:47 am
Subject: Re: {CoDependents} Re: Hello Robin...some thoughts for you...

fishtail1776

Offline

Hello Robin,

   It sounds like you are going through quite a bit of changes-which can be hard.
I myself have experienced similar problems as I had made changes in my life,
ending relationships, switching jobs, and so on.

   It is hard when you need the support and the people around you are not
supportive. There is no easy answer and every situation is very different-no two
scenerios are the same.

   However, I truly hope that you will find a support system of people near you
that will be there for you when you need it. I also hope that these new friends
will treat you better than your current one(s) are doing-ones that will see your
point of view and not expect you to feel sorry for people hurting you.

   Julie
Robin <smilinnurse2003@...> wrote:
           --- In CoDependents@yahoogroups.com, "mollysiela" <mollylegg@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I need a little perspective from the group. I have been separated
> from my husband for about 5 months now, we were married for 10
years.
> During that time he and my best friend became very close (she is
gay
> so it is not like it is a romantic thing).
>
> When we were married I enjoyed the fact that they were so close.
> However, the main thing that led to my wanting the divorce was my
> realization that my husband was emotionally and verbally abusive,
and
> on the verge of becoming physically abusive. It was something that
> was always happening, but got worse after I had my baby who is now 1
> 1/2. And it was something that I kept secret from everyone in my
life
> out of shame and because I was afraid to end the relationship for so
> long.
>
> During our break-up I came out of the closet about the abuse to my
> friends, and especially to my best friend. My husband is bipolar,
and
> my best friend is also bipolar. She also has a pattern of being
> verbally/emotionally abusive with her girlfriends, so I think she
> relates to my husband. They admit to each other they have problems
> with it, etc. She isn't abusive with me because I won't tolerate
it,
> especially now, but we have had problems in the past, but that is
> another story.
>
> Anyway, my husband is a total train wreck lately, can't find a job,
> suicidal, just totaled his car and is at fault so insurance won't
> cover his vehicle. I am always stressed about his paying child and
> spousal support. He can be a rageful jerk a lot of the time. My
best
> friend is now letting him borrow her car while he figures out his
car
> situation. On one hand this does also help me because he is able to
> help with the baby now he has a car. But on the other hand it
bothers
> me that she and many of my other friends are still feeling sorry for
> him, talking to him all the time. I know he says he misses me and
> wants to change, etc, etc and they feel sorry for him. I used to
feel
> sorry for him to, but I simply don't anymore. He brings all his
drama
> onto himself, for the first time in 10 years he is feeling the
> consequences of his actions. I always sheltered him from
consequences.
>
> And now that I have had time to myself all the years of abuse is
> unsurfacing in my memory and I feel like I am experiencing
> post-traumatic stress. My question / problem is that I don't know
if
> I should tell my friend that her relationship with my ex bothers
me.
> I feel like she should be a little horrified about how he treated
me,
> at least enough to not want to be best buddies with him.
>
> Am I off base here, and any ideas about how to approach this
> situation? Anyone had experience with this? Thanks for listening!
>
> Molly
>

Molly, I would tell her how I feel about the situation but frankly
based on information you shared about her being verbally abusive with
girlfriends and relating to your ex due to these factors...this is a
friendship I would consider ending. Robin






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#5554

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:21 pm
Subject: Hope for Today - October 31

mary_canfiel...

Offline

==================================
The following is from "Hope for Today"
An Al-Anon daily meditation reader approved
by World Service Conference Al-Anon Family
Groups (c) 2002 Al-Anon Family Group
Headquarters, Inc
----------------------

Hope for Today - October 31

... I grew up in a family where scorn, criticism, and
teasing were everyday modes of communication. To
cope, I developed the ability to hide my pain and
confusion behind sarcasm and ridicule.
... Making myself feel bigger and better by making
fun of others never filled the emptiness I felt inside.
Until I could trust myself and others enough to ask
for help, I was stuck in a spiritual hole with no hope
of getting out. I eventually grew tired of my
sarcastic behavior, and I worked with my sponsor to
explore the pain behind my harsh words and attitudes.
... With the support of God and my friends in Al-Anon,
I am now working the Steps on this particular
problem. I have accepted that I am powerless over
changing my behavior alone. I now believe that a
Power greater than myself can restore me to a more
loving way of communicating if I'm willing to learn.
Finally, I have reached the point where I am ready to
have this defect removed from me. With humility and
self-forgiveness, I ask my Higher Power to do so.
... Sometimes I still find myself picking at the faults
of others. Old habits are hard to break. Now,
however, with the help of the program, I can see more
clearly when I'm falling back into this spiritually
destructive pattern. I know I'm not perfect and I
still have miles to travel down the path my Higher
Power has carved out for me. Al-Anon gives me
awareness and trust that I can break these old
patterns one day at a time.

Thought for the Day
... Just for today I will release any need to judge or
criticize others and begin to see them in the same way
I might want them to see me.

... "I cannot hurt others without hurting myself."
... *One Day at a Time in Al-Anon*, p. 20

#5553

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:19 pm
Subject: Today's Gift - 10/31/2007 - Weds.

mary_canfiel...

Offline

Today's thought from Hazelden is:

It's a simple formula; do your best and somebody might like it.
--Dorothy Baker

We're never guaranteed success by others' standards. However, if we
do our best according to the standards we think God has in mind,
we'll be successful. And from God we'll always receive unconditional
love and acceptance.

In the past many of us were haunted by fears that our best wasn't
good enough. And not infrequently those fears hindered our
performance, thus validating our fears. We can slip back into those
immobilizing fears if we don't attend, with vigilance, to the program
and its suggestions.

Our higher power will help us do whatever task lies before us. And no
task will be ours except those for which we've been readied. Our job
is simply to go forth, taking God as our partner, and set about
completing the task. We will not falter if we remember where our
strength rests, where the guidance lies.

Self-esteem is one of the byproducts of a job done with God's help.
An additional byproduct is that we learn more quickly to rely on
God's direction and strength the next time, thus reducing the time we
give to fear.

I can be successful today, in every endeavor, if I let God manage my
moves.

You are reading from the book:

Each Day a New Beginning by Karen Casey

Each Day a New Beginning by Karen Casey. Copyright 1982, 1991 by
Hazelden Foundation. All rights reserved. Printed in the United
States of America. No portion of this publication may be reproduced
in any manner without the written permission of Hazelden.

#5552

From: "yougogrl40" <yougogrl40@...>
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:29 am
Subject: Re: I Can See It... Now What Do I Do About It???

yougogrl40

Offline

Hi Stacy :)
you wrote this: <<and this is NOT the life I wanted or imagined for
myself.>>

What life do you imagine for yourself? What steps do you think you need
to take in order to move that life from imagination to reality?

Claudia

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#5551

From: AZTerri@...
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:14 pm
Subject: Re: {CoDependents} Hope for Today - October 25

arizona_terri

Offline

Sorry, folks! Some posts have been approved later than customary because I
never got them in my inbox (I found them at the website under "Pending
Messages"  instead). Happens this time of year, around the holidays, when the
Yahoo!
Groups  server gets extra busy.

Terri




"From ghoulies and ghosties,
Long-leggety beasties,
And things that go bump in the night,
Good  Lord, deliver us!" - Anonymous






************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


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#5550

From: "simply.stace" <simply.stace@...>
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:10 am
Subject: I Can See It... Now What Do I Do About It???

simply.stace

Offline

I don't even know where to start... except to say that I feel
helpless and hopeless and SO SO tired of the same relationship
patterns.  I've been married twice... divorced for the second time
about two years ago.  I just had another serious relationship end
(or at least I thought it was serious). I'm a good person, but all
of my relationships have been dismal failures.  I'm 38 years old...
with no children and no relationship... and this is NOT the life I
wanted or imagined for myself.  I have a BIG family and lots of
friends... but, at the end of the day, everyone goes home to their
spouses/families... and I come home alone.  I'm just crushed. The
insane part of it all is that the guy I was dating... I wasn't even
all that interested in him... even in the best of times, I felt like
I was "settling"... constantly trying to talk myself into the
relationship... we didn't connect all that well sexually (which he
attributed to the fact that I was "just too fat").  He ended our
relationship about 2 weeks ago... saying that he was reconciling
with his ex-wife, who he divorced 12 YEARS AGO... and she is
homeless, jobless, drug & alcohol addicted, and emotionally
unstable.  The woman actually gets high with their kids - who are 16
and 17.  And he (who has custody of the kids) is totally blowing the
safe environment he's created for the kids and himself (he is 2
years sober and putting his recovery in jeopardy by allowing her to
live there)... blah, blah, blah.  I know I sound judgmental... and I
don't mean to... it's just that I feel SO much more rejected by the
fact that he's picking total chaos over me...  And it's not even
about me... he feels like he "owes" it to his ex and his kids to
help... whatever the cost... It's a big mess... And even though I
can RATIONALLY understand that he's not good for me - that the whole
situation is not good for me - I find myself begging and bargaining
and doing everything I can to win him back.  I see myself acting
crazy and I feel like I can't stop.  I just want somebody to love me
and stay with me... so much so that I guess I will put up with just
about anything.  It baffles me... I do so well in every other area
of my life... I have good, solid relationships with friends and
family members... I am well-educated... I own a home and a
business... I am completely debt-free except for my mortgage... I
have a good job... I am well-respected in my profession, my
community, and my church... I KNOW BETTER than to act the way I do
in relationships (all desperate & clingy & willing to take whatever
if you'll just love me)... I hate it, hate it, hate it... but I feel
like I can't stop it.  I know it all has something to do with
triggering feelings of abandonment (childhood abuse/not being
protected/feeling alone & vulnerable)... When anyone
rejects/abandons me, I completely lose it... it's like (or maybe it
IS) a panic attack... sometimes I can barely breathe... I can't
sleep or eat... I go into this totally hopeless frame of mind... and
I just hurt all over... I can barely pull it together to go to work
each day... I've actually lost about 25 pounds during
this "episode"... and I feel like I'm just barely hanging on. And
all of this over a guy that I wasn't even really sure that I wanted,
anyway...  As I go back and read what I've written, I realize how
full of self-pity and entitlement I sound... and I recognize the
neediness and the attempts to control so I feel secure... all that
stuff... I can see it... So... yeah... I guess I qualify as a
codependent - No S#*$, huh?  I can see it... now what do I do about
it?  I need help.

Thanks for listening to/reading this rant... Stacy

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#5549

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:14 pm
Subject: Today's Gift - 10/28/2007 - Sunday

mary_canfiel...

Offline

Today's thought from Hazelden is:

Our main business is not to see what lies dimly at a distance, but to
do what lies clearly at hand.
-- Thomas Carlyle

"Five years down the road," says Jack, "I want to have a new job, an
intimate relationship, and a bigger house. I want to be earning more
money and feel better about myself."  What nice dreams! But what is
Jack doing for himself now?

"My relationship is not going well," sighs Sarah. "This isn't the
first time I've been told I have the same character defects. Someday
I really want to make changes and be in a warm, supportive
relationship. Then I'll be happy." But how can Sarah expect to have a
wonderful relationship if she doesn't begin her work now?

"My family is so messed up," declares Leslie, a parent. "No one
communicates. If we had a bigger house we wouldn't argue so much or
be so disorganized. When Bill and I start making good money, we can
look for that dream house." But when will Bill and Leslie work on the
family problems they're having now?

I can begin to see what lies clearly at hand - not a dream or goal
years away from now. All I have is right now. Tonight I can build my
future foundations by working on me.

You are reading from the book:

Night Light by Amy E. Dean

Night Light by Amy E. Dean. Copyright 1986, 1992 by Hazelden
Foundation. All rights reserved. Printed in the United States of
America. No portion of this publication may be reproduced in any
manner without the written permission of Hazelden.

#5548

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:50 pm
Subject: Hope for Today - October 25

mary_canfiel...

Offline

==================================
The following is from "Hope for Today"
An Al-Anon daily meditation reader approved
by World Service Conference Al-Anon Family
Groups (c) 2002 Al-Anon Family Group
Headquarters, Inc
----------------------

Hope for Today - October 25

... "Wow!" That word expresses such wonder,
excitement, surprise, and humility. It's a word I use
often, yet I pay little attention to its meaning or
power. For example, this morning when I awoke, the
sun was shining brightly, the sky was a deep and
cloudless blue, and the autumn trees radiated gold,
bronze, and copper. Without thinking about it, my
first reaction was to exclaim, "Wow!"
... I was struck by the fact that I had nothing to do
with creating such a beautiful morning. That meant
I probably had no effect on the rainy or snowy
mornings, either. This perception relieved me of
responsibility for the weather, sunny or cloudy, and
reminded me of the many things in life over which I
have no control. I can only let go and let them be. I
felt grateful for this reminder, and I began to count
my other blessings as well. My job was simply to
enjoy the morning and be grateful for the experience
of beauty. The day was off to a great start.
... Now I take more notice of the "wow" moments in
my life. I acknowledge my feelings, such as the
gratitude, joy, and humility, that come with
appreciating something I didn't affect or create.
For each person or event that crosses my path today,
I thank my Higher Power. I accept that I don't have
to work hard for this day's delights because they are
a gift from my Higher Power. All I need to do is pay
attention and enjoy my honest emotions as the day
progresses.

Thought for the Day
... I take time to enjoy the beauty that surrounds me.

... "When I gather flowers, or marvel at nature's
... wonders, I do not lose face when I concede that
... I am not in control."
... *Courage to Change* , p 283

#5547

From: "Molly B." <mollybme@...>
Date: Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:31 pm
Subject: Re: love addiction and codependency. my first post.

mollybme

Offline

Hi, DD.  I'm new here, too.

I identify so much with all this:

> i help in alot of listening,
> support ways that i dont not really get back..

> we spend alot of time together,
> live very close..wont admit we're together but is in daily contact
> and we do a ton together..she always returns.

> i find myself waiting for her. i dont like it.


and especially this:

> am hurting and sad and lonely and feeling
> pretty bad about myself..and my inability to end it--fear of
rejection,
> abandonment, being alone.


Why do I keep hoping for a return on all I've put in?  Ten years,
instead of return on investment, the fees keep going up.


- Molly

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (3)

#5546

From: "Robin" <smilinnurse2003@...>
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:35 am
Subject: Re: Why do I go with this?

smilinnurse2003

Offline

--- In CoDependents@yahoogroups.com, "wesley_finn" <wesley_finn@...>
wrote:
>
> Today I read the characteristics of a co dependent and it really
hit
> me hard and deep.
> I'm co dependent.
> I always thought I just had anxiety, I was afraid to be alone
because
> my relationships were my life, that I had needed my boyfriend to
> live, even to be myself.
> I was aware that wasn't a healthy mindset and I was controled by my
> feelings not logical thinking a lot of the time.
> But I had never really looked up co dependency until today.
> I thought my problems were I was picking the wrong guys, or
drinking
> alcohol.
> Even with a nice guy I screwed it up, even after I quit drinking
the
> feelings and low self worth didn't stop or turn around.
>
> I don't really even know what I'm trying to write, or if this is
the
> place for it.
> I've never sought out help before, at least that's what I'm hoping
> for by joining this group.
> Get some info, find others who relate, and figure out a way to get
> better.
>
> I hate being afraid of living, I hate ruining relationships because
> I'm so needy, I hate that I hate myself most of all.
>
> Thanks for reading.
>

You remind me of myself so much.  I've long known I had problems with
relationships and the way I handle things.  I am a controller and
very needy and insecure.  I think it is when you become tired of
living this way that change can occur.  Since I began attending CODA
meetings only one month ago I can already tell a big difference in my
way of viewing events and my reactions to such.  It is amazing what
one month can do when finally at the point of being fed up with being
the way one is.  For me, I decided that I can no longer live this way
and am determined to learn to change destructive behaviors for my own
well-being.  I encourage you to find a CODA meeting in your area to
attend ...for me it is really helping clarify what it is I want to
change and gives me the support I need.

#5545

From: "Robin" <smilinnurse2003@...>
Date: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:31 am
Subject: Re: Irritated with my friends who are still friends with my ex

smilinnurse2003

Offline

--- In CoDependents@yahoogroups.com, "mollysiela" <mollylegg@...>
wrote:
>
>
> I need a little perspective from the group.  I have been separated
> from my husband for about 5 months now, we were married for 10
years.
>  During that time he and my best friend became very close (she is
gay
> so it is not like it is a romantic thing).
>
> When we were married I enjoyed the fact that they were so close.
> However, the main thing that led to my wanting the divorce was my
> realization that my husband was emotionally and verbally abusive,
and
> on the verge of becoming physically abusive.  It was something that
> was always happening, but got worse after I had my baby who is now 1
> 1/2.  And it was something that I kept secret from everyone in my
life
> out of shame and because I was afraid to end the relationship for so
> long.
>
> During our break-up I came out of the closet about the abuse to my
> friends, and especially to my best friend.  My husband is bipolar,
and
> my best friend is also bipolar.  She also has a pattern of being
> verbally/emotionally abusive with her girlfriends, so I think she
> relates to my husband.  They admit to each other they have problems
> with it, etc.  She isn't abusive with me because I won't tolerate
it,
> especially now, but we have had problems in the past, but that is
> another story.
>
> Anyway, my husband is a total train wreck lately, can't find a job,
> suicidal, just totaled his car and is at fault so insurance won't
> cover his vehicle.  I am always stressed about his paying child and
> spousal support.  He can be a rageful jerk a lot of the time.  My
best
> friend is now letting him borrow her car while he figures out his
car
> situation.  On one hand this does also help me because he is able to
> help with the baby now he has a car.  But on the other hand it
bothers
> me that she and many of my other friends are still feeling sorry for
> him, talking to him all the time.  I know he says he misses me and
> wants to change, etc, etc and they feel sorry for him.  I used to
feel
> sorry for him to, but I simply don't anymore.  He brings all his
drama
> onto himself, for the first time in 10 years he is feeling the
> consequences of his actions.  I always sheltered him from
consequences.
>
> And now that I have had time to myself all the years of abuse is
> unsurfacing in my memory and I feel like I am experiencing
> post-traumatic stress.  My question / problem is that I don't know
if
> I should tell my friend that her relationship with my ex bothers
me.
> I feel like she should be a little horrified about how he treated
me,
> at least enough to not want to be best buddies with him.
>
> Am I off base here, and any ideas about how to approach this
> situation? Anyone had experience with this? Thanks for listening!
>
> Molly
>


Molly, I would tell her how I feel about the situation but frankly
based on information you shared about her being verbally abusive with
girlfriends and relating to your ex due to these factors...this is a
friendship I would consider ending.  Robin

#5544

From: "wesley_finn" <wesley_finn@...>
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:48 pm
Subject: Why do I go with this?

wesley_finn

Offline

Today I read the characteristics of a co dependent and it really hit
me hard and deep.
I'm co dependent.
I always thought I just had anxiety, I was afraid to be alone because
my relationships were my life, that I had needed my boyfriend to
live, even to be myself.
I was aware that wasn't a healthy mindset and I was controled by my
feelings not logical thinking a lot of the time.
But I had never really looked up co dependency until today.
I thought my problems were I was picking the wrong guys, or drinking
alcohol.
Even with a nice guy I screwed it up, even after I quit drinking the
feelings and low self worth didn't stop or turn around.

I don't really even know what I'm trying to write, or if this is the
place for it.
I've never sought out help before, at least that's what I'm hoping
for by joining this group.
Get some info, find others who relate, and figure out a way to get
better.

I hate being afraid of living, I hate ruining relationships because
I'm so needy, I hate that I hate myself most of all.

Thanks for reading.

#5543

From: AZTerri@...
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:24 pm
Subject: Re: {CoDependents} Irritated with my friends who are still friends with my ex

arizona_terri

Offline

Hi Molly!

I can't say it's a "should" or "should not" matter, as  much as: if you want
to confront people on how you feel about them  remaining friendly with your
husband, you certainly have the right to. Where  codependency would enter the
equation would be if you hoped for  or expected any such persons to have a
specific response in  your favor, and you subsequently felt wounded, rejected,
abandoned, angry, bitter, or whatnot if they didn't respond as you hoped for or
expected.

Some examples you might hope for or expect: "Oh! If it bothers  you so much
then I will end the friendship with him immediately!" or  "He said/did all
those awful things to you? Why, I am going to give him a piece  of my mind!" or
"In that case, I will just be nasty to him so he knows I  don't approve of his
behavior toward you," and so on.

On the other hand, if one of them were to respond, "I am sorry about how he
treated you, but I am not going to get in the middle of all this or  end my
friendship with him over it," you would then have the option of  accepting this
individual's stance or severing ties with this individual -  without crying,
guilting, shaming, having an angry outburst, being  passive-aggressive, giving
ultimatums, et al (not saying any of these are  something you'd personally do,
only something codependents in general can  be notorious for doing!).

Detaching can work great in particular scenarios, too. I.e., you can
repeatedly remind yourself, "The more help he gets from others, the more it 
benefits
ME! So I am going to distance myself from this 'want' for people to be  so
horrified by how he abused me that they turn their backs on him."

More concisely, in personal unions we definitely have the right to let
others know when something bothers us. The challenge can arise when we hope for 
or
expect them to respond to our liking, and we behave in a manner  designed to
compel them to acquiesce if they do not, "OMG! I feel so  betrayed that you
would continue to be friends with my husband knowing how  vile he's been to me!
Don't you care about how much this hurts me? I am so  disappointed..." and all
that.

In situations like this, it's usually more productive to vent to a  counselor
or support group, "I AM HURT AND ANGRY EVERYONE IS BEING SO NICE  TO MY
ABUSIVE HUSBAND!" and, perhaps, try to make some new friends (irrespective  of
whether or not you keep any current ones).

Oddly enough, when I left my abusive ex some of HIS friends and family  tried
to "side" with me, even though I did not want or ask for this. In  fact, I
rarely spoke with them even when I was with my abusive ex because  they were not
my kind of people (they were partiers and whatnot). I found out,  though,
that some knew he had a pattern of using/abusing other women,  too, and were
upset by how he treated me.

Anyhoo, them trying to side with me actually didn't make me feel any  better,
whereas, making a new friend or two was a godsend! Wonderful to  have people
to associate with where there wasn't all that yucky history  continually
coming up, because I really wanted to move on from it all anyway!

Terri


In a message dated 10/30/2007 10:23:11 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
mollylegg@... writes:

I need a little  perspective from the group.  I have been separated
from my husband for  about 5 months now, we were married for 10 years.
During that time he and  my best friend became very close (she is gay
so it is not like it is a  romantic thing).

When we were married I enjoyed the fact that they were  so close.
However, the main thing that led to my wanting the divorce was  my
realization that my husband was emotionally and verbally abusive,  and
on the verge of becoming physically abusive.  It was something  that
was always happening, but got worse after I had my baby who is now  1
1/2.  And it was something that I kept secret from everyone in my  life
out of shame and because I was afraid to end the relationship for  so
long.

During our break-up I came out of the closet about  the abuse to my
friends, and especially to my best friend.  My husband  is bipolar, and
my best friend is also bipolar.  She also has a  pattern of being
verbally/emotionally abusive with her girlfriends, so I  think she
relates to my husband.  They admit to each other they have  problems
with it, etc.  She isn't abusive with me because I won't  tolerate it,
especially now, but we have had problems in the past, but that  is
another story.

Anyway, my husband is a total train wreck lately,  can't find a job,
suicidal, just totaled his car and is at fault so  insurance won't
cover his vehicle.  I am always stressed about his  paying child and
spousal support.  He can be a rageful jerk a lot of  the time.  My best
friend is now letting him borrow her car while he  figures out his car
situation.  On one hand this does also help me  because he is able to
help with the baby now he has a car.  But on the  other hand it bothers
me that she and many of my other friends are still  feeling sorry for
him, talking to him all the time.  I know he says he  misses me and
wants to change, etc, etc and they feel sorry for him.   I used to feel
sorry for him to, but I simply don't anymore.  He  brings all his drama
onto himself, for the first time in 10 years he is  feeling the
consequences of his actions.  I always sheltered him from  consequences.

And now that I have had time to myself all the years of  abuse is
unsurfacing in my memory and I feel like I am  experiencing
post-traumatic stress.  My question / problem is that I  don't know if
I should tell my friend that her relationship with my ex  bothers me.
I feel like she should be a little horrified about how he  treated me,
at least enough to not want to be best buddies with  him.

Am I off base here, and any ideas about how to approach  this
situation? Anyone had experience with this? Thanks for  listening!

Molly






"From ghoulies and ghosties,
Long-leggety  beasties,
And things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord, deliver us!" -  Anonymous



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5542

From: "Robin" <smilinnurse2003@...>
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:31 am
Subject: Re: Hi

smilinnurse2003

Offline

--- In CoDependents@yahoogroups.com, "Jenni" <coyoteracing@...> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone.  I'm new to CoDependents.  I'm looking for some tools to
> improve myself and my relationships.  I'm going through some problems
> in my marriage.  We're trying to work through things and I've come to
> realize I have many codependent tendencies, maybe even every one on
the
> list.  I never knew I had so many disfunctions, I always wondered why
> everyone seemed to treat me so badly when I was so nice.  I guess I
> wasn't as nice as I thought.
>
Hello Jenni and well to codependents anonymous.  I've been attending
CODA meetings for about a month and can already see some benefits in my
relationship.  I am learning not to suppress my feelings (as opposed to
reacting as I did previously)...but learning to address issues more
quickly and find resolution at a better pace.  This seems to be helping
my fiancee and myself.  Good luck to you in your recovery!
Robin

#5541

From: "mollysiela" <mollylegg@...>
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:31 am
Subject: Irritated with my friends who are still friends with my ex

mollysiela

Offline

I need a little perspective from the group.  I have been separated
from my husband for about 5 months now, we were married for 10 years.
  During that time he and my best friend became very close (she is gay
so it is not like it is a romantic thing).

When we were married I enjoyed the fact that they were so close.
However, the main thing that led to my wanting the divorce was my
realization that my husband was emotionally and verbally abusive, and
on the verge of becoming physically abusive.  It was something that
was always happening, but got worse after I had my baby who is now 1
1/2.  And it was something that I kept secret from everyone in my life
out of shame and because I was afraid to end the relationship for so
long.

During our break-up I came out of the closet about the abuse to my
friends, and especially to my best friend.  My husband is bipolar, and
my best friend is also bipolar.  She also has a pattern of being
verbally/emotionally abusive with her girlfriends, so I think she
relates to my husband.  They admit to each other they have problems
with it, etc.  She isn't abusive with me because I won't tolerate it,
especially now, but we have had problems in the past, but that is
another story.

Anyway, my husband is a total train wreck lately, can't find a job,
suicidal, just totaled his car and is at fault so insurance won't
cover his vehicle.  I am always stressed about his paying child and
spousal support.  He can be a rageful jerk a lot of the time.  My best
friend is now letting him borrow her car while he figures out his car
situation.  On one hand this does also help me because he is able to
help with the baby now he has a car.  But on the other hand it bothers
me that she and many of my other friends are still feeling sorry for
him, talking to him all the time.  I know he says he misses me and
wants to change, etc, etc and they feel sorry for him.  I used to feel
sorry for him to, but I simply don't anymore.  He brings all his drama
onto himself, for the first time in 10 years he is feeling the
consequences of his actions.  I always sheltered him from consequences.

And now that I have had time to myself all the years of abuse is
unsurfacing in my memory and I feel like I am experiencing
post-traumatic stress.  My question / problem is that I don't know if
I should tell my friend that her relationship with my ex bothers me.
I feel like she should be a little horrified about how he treated me,
at least enough to not want to be best buddies with him.

Am I off base here, and any ideas about how to approach this
situation? Anyone had experience with this? Thanks for listening!

Molly

#5540

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:32 pm
Subject: Today's Gift - 10/30/2007 - Tuesday

mary_canfiel...

Offline

Today's thought from Hazelden is:

Today I will take it easy.

I will accept that I've made mistakes in the past.  I will also
accept that I did the best I could.

Maybe I wish I had made different decisions or handled things
differently.  But wishes don't change the past. I can only begin
making changes today.  I will accept myself, knowing that I did my
best. I did what I thought I had to do.

I am and have always been worthy of being loved the way I want to be
loved.

You are reading from the book:

Time to Fly Free by Judith R. Smith

Time to Fly Free. Copyright 2001 by Judith R. Smith. All rights
reserved. Printed in the United States of America. No portion of this
publication may be reproduced in any manner without the written
permission of Hazelden.

#5539

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:34 pm
Subject: Hope for Today - October 30

mary_canfiel...

Offline

==================================
The following is from "Hope for Today"
An Al-Anon daily meditation reader approved
by World Service Conference Al-Anon Family
Groups (c) 2002 Al-Anon Family Group
Headquarters, Inc
----------------------

Hope for Today - October 30

... I asked my sponsor to meet with me before the Al-
Anon adult child meeting to talk about taking my
Second Step: "Came to believe that a Power greater
than ourselves could restore us to sanity." She
suggested we take a leisurely walk before the
meeting and she listened patiently while I talked. I
told her I thought I had the Power-greater-than-me
part down, and the sanity or insanity part made sense,
too. To me sanity meant being centered, feeling
comfortable with myself. What escaped me about
Step Two was "believing" not the abstract idea of
believing, but the nuts-and- bolts "doing" that creates
the basis for how I live my life. I asked how to
transform the idea of believing into concrete action.
... I can't remember what my sponsor said in reply to
my frustration and confusion because a profound
spiritual awakening overtook me. The moment will be
forever frozen in time. The moon shown brightly over
almost-bare autumn branches that swayed slightly
overhead, sketching lines across the moonlight. The
feeling that filled me that night was like the sun
shining into my very being, bringing with it a burst of
consciousness and clarity. The answer to my dilemma
arose from somewhere deep inside me. It was trust.
Trusting, then acting on that trust, was how I could
turn my belief into something tangible.
... I had never trusted anyone or anything -- other
than ideas -- during my childhood. On that night,
however, I *knew* my God was no longer just an idea.
God became a great trust within me that will provide
me daily, through the Al-Anon program, with all the
guidance, comfort, and support I need to act
faithfully on my beliefs.

Thought for the Day
... Step Two invites me to develop my trust.

... "I don't need to understand the Power greater
... than myself, only to trust it."
... *As We Understood . . .*, p. 159

#5538

From: "Jenni" <coyoteracing@...>
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:35 pm
Subject: Hi

jazzsmommy2004

Offline

Hi everyone.  I'm new to CoDependents.  I'm looking for some tools to
improve myself and my relationships.  I'm going through some problems
in my marriage.  We're trying to work through things and I've come to
realize I have many codependent tendencies, maybe even every one on the
list.  I never knew I had so many disfunctions, I always wondered why
everyone seemed to treat me so badly when I was so nice.  I guess I
wasn't as nice as I thought.

#5537

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:01 pm
Subject: Hope for Today - October 29

mary_canfiel...

Offline

==================================
The following is from "Hope for Today"
An Al-Anon daily meditation reader approved
by World Service Conference Al-Anon Family
Groups (c) 2002 Al-Anon Family Group
Headquarters, Inc
----------------------

Hope for Today - October 29

... Before I came into Al-Anon, I took disparaging
comments to heart. I believed them and found myself
wondering what was wrong with me. Even as I became
older, I carried inside the person who grew up with
alcoholic parents and endured the abuse that
accompanied the disease. A large part of my recovery
has been to rediscover and nurture the part of me
that grew up with active alcoholism. I had to learn
how to love this aspect of myself unconditionally.
... When I took Step Three and truly surrendered my
will and my life to the care of my Higher Power, I felt
enveloped in healing love. Through Step Eleven's
prayer and meditation, I bathe myself in this love
every day. By diligently working the Steps, I've
finally learned how to love all of me -- my strengths
*and* my shortcomings. I feel a much stronger sense
of self, which I now allow no one to diminish. Al-Anon
has given me wonderful gifts -- the self-respect and
self-esteem needed to protect myself from
unacceptable behavior.
... Now when my son tells me he was teased at school,
I pass on my recovery lessons to him as we talk about
self-love. I teach him what I have learned in Al-Anon.
I help him by suggesting simple ways he can detach. I
explain how he can let it begin with him by not
retaliating. I help him understand that sometimes he
also does things that hurt others and that he can feel
better about himself by making amends. Not only has
Al-Anon helped heal my past, it's helping me give my
son a healthier future.

Thought for the Day
... When I awaken to the gift I truly am, and wisely
use detachment, no one's words or actions can hurt me.

... ". . . The most important person to gain love and
... respect from is myself."
... *Courage to Be Me*, p. 137

#5536

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:59 pm
Subject: Today's Gift - 10/29/2007 - Monday

mary_canfiel...

Offline

Today's thought from Hazelden is:

If you don't have any loyalty to what you are doing, you ought not be
doing it.
-- Tom Harding

We understand loyalty to friends and family members, but does loyalty
to an activity imply the same thing? To be loyal to an activity means
to stick with it even when we hit the inherent snags. Let's consider
a hobby for instance. Are we so frustrated when we can't track down a
particular stamp or seem unable to complete the 5000 piece puzzle
that we consider quitting the activity in disgust? If so, we probably
lack the loyalty that Tom alludes to.

Each of us has to consider for ourselves whether or not we value this
kind of loyalty when it comes to the "extracurriculars" in our lives.
We're not failures if we decide to drop some hobby for another one.
Sometimes we can't see that some interest doesn't fit us all that
well until we get deep into it. What's more important is that we
remain loyal to our values, whatever they are. When some activity
loses its appeal, for any reason, and we continue to stay with it out
of shame or embarrassment, we're not being loyal to that which is
most important -- ourselves.

Today, I'll ask myself if my hobbies suit my true interests.

You are reading from the book:

Keepers of the Wisdom by Karen Casey

Keepers of the Wisdom. Copyright 1996 by Karen Casey. All rights
reserved. Printed in the United States of America. No portion of this
publication may be reproduced in any manner without the written
permission of Hazelden.

#5535

From: AZTerri@...
Date: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:46 am
Subject: It's Candy Time!

arizona_terri

Offline

http://www.flowgo.com/funny/41_sugar-sugar-babies.html

It's Candy Time!

Hope you all have a fun and SAFE Halloween!

Terri

"From ghoulies and ghosties,
Long-leggety beasties,
And things that go bump in the night,
Good Lord, deliver us!" - Anonymous

See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.

#5534

From: AZTerri@...
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:39 pm
Subject: Re: {CoDependents} Re: Dealing With Control Freaks

arizona_terri

Offline

Yeah, let me know if they work for you! I heard they can take a LOT of
practice, lol.

Terri

In a message dated 10/27/2007 9:46:27 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
marycanfield@... writes:

Terri,  thanks for posting this.  This is really good stuff.  I'm
going  to try these techniques at work and see if they help me at  all.






"From ghoulies and ghosties,
Long-leggety beasties,
And things that go bump in the night,
Good  Lord, deliver us!" - Anonymous



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

#5533

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:16 pm
Subject: Hope for Today - October 28

mary_canfiel...

Offline

==================================
The following is from "Hope for Today"
An Al-Anon daily meditation reader approved
by World Service Conference Al-Anon Family
Groups (c) 2002 Al-Anon Family Group
Headquarters, Inc
----------------------

Hope for Today - October 28

... One evening at my home meeting, a woman shared
how she argues a lot with the alcoholic. I wasn't
listening too attentively, but then she mentioned the
slogan "How Important Is It?" Her words struck me
hard and called me to attention. I decided to
experiment with that slogan, applying it to my own
situation.
... The first time I tried it, it was a real eye-opener.
My alcoholic husband had arrived home late, and I
was ready to begin the drill, asking every conceivable
question I knew I should *not* ask. To keep myself
from doing so, I said the Serenity Prayer over and
over and then asked myself, "How important is it?" A
feeling of relief flowed into me as I answered
myself, "It's not important enough for me to become
the police!"
... My husband knows me well and was prepared to
walk into the house and be barraged with queries. I
could see the muscles tighten in his neck as he
stepped in and waited. All I said was, "Hello." He
relaxed visibly, and we passed the rest of the evening
together with serenity and even a little fun.
... Since that evening, I've applied this slogan to many
of my affairs. I've learned that if an issue isn't
going to be important in 30 days, then it's probably
not worth troubling myself with now. Today there
aren't many things happening in my life with such
lasting effect that I have to make an issue of them.

Thought for the Day
... How easily do I give away my serenity?

... "The perspective we gain when we apply this
... slogan makes it possible to set aside petty
... worries, minor irritations, and baseless
... judgments so that we might celebrate the
... extraordinary richness and wonder that life
... offers."
... *How Al-Anon Works for Families &
... Friends of Alcoholics*, p. 72

#5532

From: "Fishtail1776 $Julie$" <fishtail1776@...>
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:25 am
Subject: Re: {CoDependents} Theresa, No it's not stupid :)

fishtail1776

Offline

Hello Theresa,

   Thanks for your reply.

   I have been answering a lot of e-mails too  lately-not all of them
though...lol...I have like...25,000 e-mails in my inbox (don't even ask how many
in my bulk  mail ha ha...that's yahoo unlimited storage for ya!).

   Anyway...It was great to hear from you. I don't think it is stupid at all that
you feel the way you do. It hurts to lose the bond of good friends. No matter if
it was a healthy one or an unhealthy one it is sad.

   I myself am in a predictament myself. I felt overly-dependent upon some good
friends of mine even though I felt like they were dragging me down an unhealthy
road. I have been keeping a distance from some of them and I may  not even talk
to some of them.

   My boyfriend is a little ...ugh...like almost taking some of their side
somewhat implying that I am the problem. However, I don't think it is wrong to
want to keep a distance from people if I can see that their behaviors are
rubbing off on me.

   I am in limbo though. I have been accused of being a control freak by some
people because of my dilemma, which is that I don't want to go certain places
any more and do certain things.

   However, I responded by making it clear in my own way that I never said
anything about anybody not going to certain places I don't want to go any more.

   I also made it clear that I never said that my boyfriend could not hang out
with my friends any more (meaning I don't have any intention of stopping them
from hanging out...I  know I cannot stop that even if I do decide to end it with
my boyfriend or he decides to end it with me.)

   The only reason I am thinking of ending some of my friendships is because
sometimes what they do affects me. For instance, if I am  hanging around people
that drink alot I may drink more, or if ...well...this is kind of
personal...but...well...

   I had another issue that I was confused about which I will keep to myself for
now. I was hanging around someone else who had the same problem I had just
recently been acquiring and the friendship with this person affected me in a
way-that one as well as other friends.

   Julie

Theresa <tlr28@...> wrote:

Hi Julie -

I am sorry I did not at least reply sooner - it has taken me a long
time to get mostly through a backlog of email in my inbox - had over
5000 messages in it and have now whittled it down to around 600, as
of last night/early this morning. We were gone for two weeks in early
July, so that I could walk across the stage in Phoenix AZ for my
Master's degree. I had a backlog from before then, while preparing,
etc., and am just now getting through a lot of it.

This mail goes into another box.

One or two sentences? eeep. Short version - you're right - people
who were friends that I was dependent upon aren't friends any longer
and I'd like them to be or get them out of my head and my way.

I KNOW this is stupid. I know it shouldn't matter - that I have
bigger problems/concerns that I need to be addressing, and other
co-dependent traits/relationships that I may have (especially with my
parents) - I realize this is so dumb to let it affect the things I
love to do and discuss - writing and Robert Lansing for example. I am
still depending on her for so many things - and of course, she's NOT
THERE! (not yelling at you, but at me.) I know (head knowledge)
that it's what I want that matters, not what she does or wants.

I have been working on gaining your attitude (which I like - it's
much more healthy than the "people - pleasing" that I have had
drilled into me from day 1. I go through cycles - sometimes I push
to improve things, and then I falter, stumble, and fail. For some
reason I have self-esteem issues.

"Sometimes also I pick the wrong people to hang out with just because
I am glad someone likes me." - that's part of what got me into the
situation with Paige.

See, I can be kind of short :).

Thanks for the help,
Theresa

Long version:

In this case, I had/have a strong interest in writing and in Robert
Lansing. For years I wrote mainly fanfics, without knowing that's
what I was writing :). After getting online, I found
onelist/egroups/yahoogroups, and was thrilled to find there were some
for Mr. Lansing. That's where I met Paige, Linda, and the others;
Paige was the first non-parents that I let read my writing, and she
really liked it - that started the friendship. For several years we
chatted every night into the wee hours of the morning, sharing
everything - the other lists' members said "Paige and Theresa" in one breath.

I didn't realize how dependent I was becoming on her - if she said
yes, I did it; if she said no, I didn't. I took a week and flew out
to see her in 2000, it went ok, then turned bad at the end, my fault.
A few times my system finally said "something's wrong here," and
things started to fall apart. For example, I got to where I
couldn't keep up with the hours; I was working full time then and not
getting much done beside chatting with her at night. She said she
understood, and I emailed her off list occasionally, but that wasn't
enough for her. She said I stopped chatting for over a year, and
that's when she turned to someone else, but we did talk some on
Friday and Saturday nights, so and I don't remember it being that
long of a connected time.

I started chatting with her during the week again, I missed talking
to her a lot, and wasn't getting anything accomplished anyhow (story
of my life so far). I thought that we were back to normal, but most
of the time she seemed reserved. One night my computer's power
supply exploded in mid-chat, and I called her - she was quite
cool. I will always kick myself for not asking her then what was
wrong, but I brushed it off. Then her son got really sick, and she
focused on that, and I didn't bring up my niggling feelings
again. All this time I'm emailing her with scenes that I've written,
and so forth.

Then one of our mutual friends died in mid-January 2004. Her Mom
called Paige, who was her best friend. It was the last straw for
Paige when I didn't respond to her highest priority email - I had
been online to chat, Paige hadn't responded, and so I left
chatting. I didn't check my email until just before heading to bed
the next morning, and when I went back into chatting, Paige wasn't there.

Paige went into iceberg mode towards me for the next few days, and
finally exploded in an email. I was ticked by then, and replied -
Mom said later that I was too harsh too - and we had one last chat -
where she threw at me that I was the only one wrong, and had several
points she was angry about, that I had "done to her." She never took
any responsibility for anything - it was all my fault. It ended with
her begrudgingly saying she'd forgive me.

I was devastated - it was like having panic attacks - matching what
I've been told about them. I was begging, crying, contacting other
people and friends about it, desperately trying to get that
friendship back. I screwed up again - sent her some scenes, etc. -
and got back the "leave me alone, you are not and never will be my
friend again" email (don't remember exactly how it went), and the
same from another of our mutual friends, Linda. I'll never forget
Linda telling me that whenever she sees my name online, she throws
up, after saying that Paige and I could never have been friends
because she has kids and I don't -- and basically implying how they
had laughed and had a good time about me.

I think that hurt me more than anything. I have tears in my eyes and
a lump in my throat now. I don't make and keep friends easily at
all, much less close friends. A lot of my world centered around
Paige. And to have depended on her so much, then to be dumped without
her ever saying anything about the problems and concerns she was
having - if she'd done that when they started bothering her, we could
have worked it out then.

I saw her face-to-face that summer, at the first Lansing Pilgrimage,
in 2004. She was civil, but for the most part it was plain she
wanted to be anywhere but around me - and I was trying to not be a
problem and to not let my feelings etc. color the situation for
me. I had a great time otherwise:).

As her wishes, I have not contacted either of them by offlist email,
aside from ordering the RL calendar Paige puts out each year. I did
find a couple of newspaper articles in 2005 & 2006 about her town,
and that her kids might have been able to use for reports - they're
still in grade school - and sent those to them, but of course never
got a thank you or so forth. If I complement them on list (Paige
also runs the RL website - fantastic site!), they usually make sure
that everyone else is mentioned in their "thank yous" but me - and I
laugh at that every time, it finally is something funny.

My problem with this is that I am still, almost 4 years later,
allowing her and Linda to overshadow me in my life. I KNOW, somehow,
that one of the main reasons I find it so difficult to work at
finding and find a job is that if I don't have money, I can not go to
the every-other-year Pilgrimages, and therefore I don't have to meet
either one of them face-to-face. Same with writing, posting to any of
the Lansing and related lists, keeping up friendships of our other
mutual friends, etc. Everyone else is fantastic friends with Paige
and Linda. Linda is a great writer who posts often, and Paige would
be as well, if she'd post it instead of keeping it to herself and
friends, and get helpful critiques.

I am not the world's greatest writer, by any means, but I have talent
(thanks Grandma!), other people have told me so. I took a creative
writing course in school, and did really well, for example. But even
now, every time I write or edit, the thought pops into my head "oh,
Paige needs to see this," or "Paige would/wouldn't like this," and so
forth. I have let it pull me back into my shell and affect me other
ways - I don't even try to make friends, I don't even try to do
anything new, and so forth. When I do get a friendly contact, I
freeze and let other things get in the way - it doesn't end well.

At 06:30 9/30/2007, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
> My name is Julie. I am a writer too...so hopefully we can keep in
> touch. I wouldn't mind seeing some of your writing sometime, and
> you could see some of mine perhaps...anyway...
>
> How are you doing? I know you sent this e-mail a day or two ago.
>
> I am not sure I fully understand your situation-but I didn't read
> your previous e-mails yet either. Can you say in one or two
> sentences what your question is?
>
> And if I am not correct...you are trying to be friends again with
> people who do not want to be your friend? That is almost what it
> sounds like to me, but if I am wrong please correct me.
>
> My experience simply this:
>
> I don't care to waste my time trying to be friends with people
> who don't really want to be my friend. If they don't like me that
> is their problem, not mine, barring any hurtful things I could have
> said and done.
>
> However, I also understand that people's rejection of me is often
> nothing to do with anything I may or may not have said or
> done. See, I have noticed over the years also that..no matter how
> nice I am to another person that person still might not care enough
> to reciprocate.
>
> So, I just say hey...fine...if that person doesn't think I am
> good enough to be friends with him/her than...again that is that
> person's problem, and not mine.
>
> I can say I am somewhat the opposite of you. I often don't need
> anybody. However, there are times when I fall into the trap of
> trying to fix and change a boyfriend that I am with-or he will try
> to fix and change me. In that case...
>
> I think if two people are not happy with each other as who they
> are...then they should not be together.
>
> If they are married...then the two people should either accept
> the decision they made, learn to appreciate the good in the person
> they have married...or...I don't like the idea of divorce...but if
> there is no other way..then I guess divorce is in order in that case.
>
> I hope I have helped with the little bit that I understand of
> your situation. Now, it doesn't mean that I am devoid problems. I
> often worry about what people think of me and that prevents me from
> getting to close to them. That is sortof a "reverse codependent"
> thing...I guess you could say.
>
> Sometimes also I pick the wrong people to hang out with just
> because I am glad someone likes me. It sucks though when that
> happens because then I am not truly fulfilled inside knowing that I
> want to hang out with people I have more in common with.
>
> I am doing a lot of searching right now as well. Trying to figure
> out who I really am so I can attract the right people to me. But,
> it never hurts to make new friends along that journey-some friends
> that will be with me for life while others will only be with me for
> a short time.
>
> Julie
>
>
>Theresa <tlr28@...> wrote:
>
>Evening :-).
>
>I feel silly and inane for even asking this, but ... if one of your
>codependenices revolved strongly around some of your strong interests
>before you became codependent - how do you put the codependent part
>behind you and allow yourself the freedom to/and enjoy them again, on
>your own terms and your own self?
>

Gentlemen, I believe we have much to discuss.
(Robert Lansing as Control, the Equalizer, "Trial By Ordeal" )

Writing Resume: http://www.ifreelance.com/pro/7457

   Feature Clips and Article Samples:
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#5531

From: "Fishtail1776 $Julie$" <fishtail1776@...>
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:34 am
Subject: Re: {CoDependents} reply to Dealing With Control Freaks

fishtail1776

Offline

I am reading all this stuff about control freaks and wonder if I am the control
freak or if the other person (in this case my boyfriend) is.

   My problem, however I feel is this...I thought that a relationship was
supposed to be about comprimise. I would be willing to give a little if the
other person is also willing to give a little. However, if that person is not
willing to "give in" at all-or rarely-then I feel very unhappy.

   I wonder if the fact that I am unhappy makes me a controlling person. I hope
not. Also, I wonder, sometimes I decide to tell people I don't want to go to a
certain place any more-which I feel should be my right-and I feel that because
of it other people are offended.

   I have no intention of trying to control anybody. I know sometimes I get
anxious when I feel like my life is out of control. However, I usually will calm
down after awhile knowing that I have a choice to make.

   I can either accept things the way they are or move on. And if I decide to
move on that should be my personal prerogative right?(If I move on peacefully,
and so forth.)

   Julie



samaya_42 <samaya_42@...> wrote:
           Thank you so much for posting this. It is ironic to me that so much
of the things I am reading lately seem to fall in with my own
conclusions.

I haven't posted much lately...I've been 'too busy' doing some work
on me, to post much....for the moment anyway...

But I am still here, still checking in and still grateful for the
people here and what glean....

Thank you all...have a great week end.

Samaya~

--- In CoDependents@yahoogroups.com, AZTerri@... wrote:
>
> Dealing With Control Freaks
>
> by Thomas J. Schumacher, Psy.D., R-CSW
>
> Most all of you have had to contend with control freaks. These are
those
> people who insist on having their way in all interactions with
you. They wish to
> set the agenda and decide what it is you will do and when you will
do it. You
> know who they are; they have a driving need to run the show and
call the
> shots. Lurking within the fabric of the conversation is the clear
threat that if
> you do not accede to their needs and demands, they will be
unhappy.
>
> Certainly, it's natural to want to be in control of your life. But
when you
> have to be in control of the people around you as well, when you
literally
> can't rest until you get your way, you have a personality
disorder. While it's
> not a diagnostic category found in the DSM IV (the therapist's
bible for
> diagnostic purposes) an exaggerated emphasis on control is part
of a cluster of
> behaviors that can be labeled as compulsive generally
characterized by
> perfectionism, orderliness, workaholic tendencies, an inability
to make commitments
> or to trust others and a fear of having their flaws exposed.
>
> Deep down, these people are terrified of being vulnerable. They
believe they
> can protect themselves by staying in control of every aspect of
their lives,
> including their relationships. Control freaks take the need and
urge to
> control to new heights, causing others stress so they can maintain
a sense of
> order. These people are riddled with anxiety, fear, insecurity,
and anger.
> They're very critical of themselves, their lover, and their
friends, but
> underneath that perfect outfit and great body is a mountain of
unhappiness. Let's
> look at what makes control freaks tick, what makes you want to
explode, and some
> ways to deal with them.
>
>
> The Psychological Dynamics That Fuel a Control Freak
>
> The need to control is almost always fueled by anxiety, though
control
> freaks seldom recognize their fears. At work, they may worry about
failure or
> being exposed for wrongdoing. In relationships, they may worry
about not having
> their needs met. To keep this anxiety from overwhelming them, they
try to
> control the people or things around them. They have a hard time
with negotiation
> and compromise and they can't stand imperfection. Needless to say,
they are
> difficult to live with, work with and/or socialize with.
>
> Bottom Line: In the process of being controlling, their actions
say, "You're
> incompetent," and "I can't trust you." (this is why you hate
them).
> Remember, the essential need of a control freak is to defend
against anxiety.
> Although it may not be apparent to you when they are making their
demands, these
> individuals are attempting to cope with fairly substantial levels
of their own
> anxiety. The control freak is usually fighting off a deep-seated
sense of their
> own helplessness and impotence. By becoming proficient at trying
to control
> other people, they are warding off their own fear of being out of
control and
> helpless. Controlling is an anxiety management tool.
>
> Unfortunately for you, the control freak has a lot at stake in
prevailing.
> While trying to hold a conversation and engage them in some way,
their
> emotional stakes involve their own identity and sense of well-
being. Being in control
> gives them the temporary illusion and sense of calmness. When
they feel they
> are prevailing, you can just about sense the tension oozing out
of them. The
> control freak is very frightened. Part of their strategy is to
induce that
> fear in you with the subtle or not so subtle threat of loss.
Since the
> emotional stakes are so high for them, they need to assert
themselves with you to
> not feel so helpless. To relinquish control is tantamount to
being victimized
> and overwhelmed. When a control freak cannot control, they go
through a series
> of rapid phases. First they become angry and agitated, then they
become
> panicky and apprehensive, then they become agitated and
threatening, and then
> they lapse into depression and despair.
>
>
> Repetition Compulsion
>
> Control freaks are also caught in the grip of a repetition
compulsion. They
> repeat the same pattern again and again in their attempt to master
their
> anxiety and cope with the trauma they feel. Characteristically,
the repetition
> compulsion takes on a life of its own. Rather than feel calmer and
therefore
> have a diminished need to be controlling, their behavior locks
them into the
> same pattern in an insatiable way. Successes at controlling do not
register on
> their internal scoreboard. They have to fight off the same threat
again and
> again with increasing rigidity and intransigence.
>
>
> Two Types of Control Freaks
>
> Type 1 Control Freaks: The Type 1 control freak is strictly
attempting to
> cope with their anxiety in a self absorbed way. They just want to
feel better
> and are not even very aware of you. You will notice and hear
their agitation
> and tentativeness. They usually do not make much eye contact when
they are
> talking to you.
>
> Type 2 Control Freaks: The Type 2 control freak is also trying to
manage
> their anxiety but they are very aware of you as opposed to the
Type 1 control
> freak. The Type 2 needs to diminish you to feel better. Their
mood rises as
> they push you down. They do not just want to prevail; they also
need to believe
> that they have defeated you. They need you to feel helpless so
they will not
> feel helpless. Their belief is that someone must feel helpless in
any
> interchange and they desperately do not want it to be them. The
Type 1 needs
> control. The Type 2 needs to control you.
>
>
> Some Coping Strategies
>
> 1) Stay as calm as you can. Control freaks tend to generate a lot
of tension
> in those around them. Try to maintain a comfortable distance so
that you can
> remain centered while you speak with them. Try to focus on your
breathing.
> As they get more agitated and demanding, just breath slowly and
deeply. If you
> stay calm and focused, this often has the effect of relaxing them
as well. If
> you get agitated you have joined the battle on their terms.
>
> 2) Speak very slowly. Again the normal tendency is to gear up and
speak
> rapidly when dealing with a control freak. This will only draw you
into the
> emotional turmoil and you will quickly be personalizing what is
occurring.
>
> 3) Be very patient. Control freaks need to feel heard. In fact,
they do not
> have that much to say. They have a lot to say if you engage them
in a power
> struggle. If you just listen carefully and ask good questions that
indicate
> that you have heard them, then they will quickly resolve whatever
the issue is
> and calmly move on.
>
> 4) Pay attention to your induced reactions. What is this person
trying to
> emotionally induce in you? Notice how you feel when speaking with
them. It will
> give you important clues as to how to deal with them more
effectively and
> appropriately.
>
> 5) Initially, let them control the agenda. But you control the
pacing. If
> you stay calm and speak slowly, you will be in command of the
pacing of the
> conversation.
>
> 6) Make demands on them - especially when dealing with the type 2
control
> freak. Ask them to send you something or do something for you. By
asking
> something of them, you will be indicating that you are not
intimidated or
> diminished by their behavior patterns.
>
> 7) Remember an old but poignant Maxim: "Those who demand the most
often give
> the least."
>
> Keep in mind that control freaks are not trying to hurt you,
they're trying
> to protect themselves. Remind yourself that their behavior toward
you isn't
> personal; the compulsion was there before they met you, and it
will be their
> forever unless they get help. Understand that they are skilled
manipulators,
> artful and intimidating, rehearsed debaters and excellent at
distorting
> reality.
>
> In order to not feel degraded, humiliated and have your sense of
self and
> self worth assaulted, you need to avoid being bulldozed by a
controlling lover,
> boss or friend. When you are caught up in a truly
destructive/controlling
> attachment, the best response may be to walk out. You have to
understand that
> whatever you do will have a limited effect. These people are angry
and afraid
> to let go of you. Hence, it is your job to let go of them,
protect yourself in
> the process�, and grow.
>
>
>
>
> "From ghoulies and ghosties,
> Long-leggety beasties,
> And things that go bump in the night,
> Good Lord, deliver us!" - Anonymous
>
>
>
> ************************************** See what's new at
http://www.aol.com
>






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#5530

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:27 am
Subject: Today's Gift - 10/27/2007 - Saturday

mary_canfiel...

Offline

Today's thought from Hazelden is:

Our problem is that we expect to feel secure.

Many of us have had past crises and problems, yet our worries and
anxieties continue in the present. We believe that our situation
causes our fears and we say, "If only things were different, I could
relax." Yet even when everything is going well, we still get anxious
that something unseen is amiss. When we are immersed in our fears,
unable to let go and live life joyfully, we may become emotionally
absent from our loved ones.

Our problem is not that life is insecure. Of course it is. Our
problem is that we expect to feel secure. We put great energy into
achieving control and having everything "just right," but quite
naturally we end up without control. Then we think something is
wrong. Instead, we can choose to turn our fears over to our Higher
Power. We do that by talking about our fears, taking the steps we
can, and trusting our Higher Power for the outcomes. Then we return
to emotional contact in our relationship.

Tell your partner something you fear and turn it over to your Higher
Power.

You are reading from the book:

The More We Find In Each Other by Merle Fossum and Mavis Fossum

The More We Find in Each Other by Merle Fossum and Mavis Fossum.
Copyright 1992 by Hazelden Foundation. All rights reserved. Printed
in the United States of America. No portion of this publication may
be reproduced in any manner without the written permission of
Hazelden.

#5529

From: "mary_canfield2003" <marycanfield@...>
Date: Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:35 am
Subject: Hope for Today - October 27

mary_canfiel...

Offline

==================================
The following is from "Hope for Today"
An Al-Anon daily meditation reader approved
by World Service Conference Al-Anon Family
Groups (c) 2002 Al-Anon Family Group
Headquarters, Inc
----------------------

Hope for Today - October 27

... I never realized how much my self-esteem
disappeared while I was growing up with alcoholism.
As a carefree child I possessed self-worth, but it
slowly became buried and dormant as I dealt with
this family disease.
... When I came to Al-Anon, it took all aspects of the
program to rebuild my sense of worthiness. At
meetings I had the right to pass if I wanted, yet I
gradually found my voice to speak my mind and heart.
I asked someone to be my sponsor and then called
her for help. I found a God of my understanding and
learned that I had choices and could make good
decisions on my own. Little by little, all of these
things helped me rediscover my self-esteem.
... To keep what I had received, it was suggested that
I give it away. Therefore I continued to fortify my
self-respect through service. I started by setting up
chairs and making coffee. Eventually I chaired
meetings, became a sponsor, and served as secretary,
alternate group representative, and group
representative. As I retained my self-worth by doing
service work, I learned the Steps and Traditions
through action.
... The results of my hard work have been a sense of
autonomy, self-esteem, and gratitude. Those
qualities keep me open to the gifts God offers me
through my relationships with others. They give me
strength and courage to maintain the relationships
already in my life. They also help me to be open to
new connections, which used to frighten me. Thank
you, Al-Anon, for offering the loving support and
guidance through which I have regained the self-
esteem I lost so many years ago.

Thought for the Day
... I will take time each day to nurture my new-found
self-esteem.

... "Today, when faced with choices, I will opt for
... the path that enhances my self-esteem."
... *Courage to Change* , p. 118