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#17949 From: "Brian" <bekay319@...>
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2009 2:17 pm
Subject: Re: Big Book Study - Post #39 		brian_k319
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
These are my favorite 3 chapters in the book (today). They hold a
lot of truth in summary for me. We say this before the Lords Prayer
to close our BB Study group, "The Solution". May God bless you and
keep you until then-

   Thank you,
     Brian K
>
> Page 164 - Paragraph 2 is a place where people will lift something
out of context in an attempt to prove a spurious point. "Our book is
meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little." Some
people seize upon this to mean that the instructions outlined in the
book are optional. (Jim wrote an article on this topic. It was
published in the April 2002 edition of The Grapevine
entitled "Spiritual Kindergarten" by Jim K. of Manhattan - a copy of
it is located in the "Files" section at the BBS home page.) What the
first 100 knew only a little about was the spiritual experience.
They had the answer to recovering from alcoholism. Keep in mind that
Bill was sober only four years at the time the book was written. The
word "suggestive," in this context, means "a
>  starting point," or "a beginning." It means "an introduction to
spiritual principles." AA is but a means to the end of living a
spiritual life. Our lives aren't meant to be lived in AA but outside
of it.
>
> "The answers will come if your own house is in order. But
obviously you cannot transmit what you haven't got." The "2 step"
trap -- to carry the message effectively you need to have a message
to transmit.
>
> "Abandon yourself to God as you understand God (Steps 1, 2 and 3).
Admit your faults to Him and your fellows (Steps 4, 5, 6, and 7).
Clear away the wreckage of the past (Steps 8 and 9). Give freely of
what you find and join us (Steps 10, 11, and 12). We shall be with
you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, (The
>  Fellowship of God) and you will surely meet some of us as you
trudge the Road of Happy Destiny. May God bless you and keep you
until then." In his classic style, Bill sums up at the end.
>

> With love,
> Karen H.
> DOS: 05/17/1993
>

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (308)
#17948 From: Karen <honey_dot_com@...>
Date: Fri Jan 9, 2009 1:19 pm
Subject: Big Book Study - Post #39 		honey_dot_com
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Good morning,
 
There are a great many places that have marked AA's early history. The Mayflower Hotel in Ohio is one. Towns Hospital - 293 Central Park West at 89th Street in Manhattan is another. (Jim once lived half a block down 89th Street from there.) Stepping Stones was the home in Bedford Hills, NY in Westchester County, just north of New York City, where Bill and Lois lived. They moved there in 1941. (Jim was fortunate enough to meet Lois there in 1980. She passed on in 1988.) Stepping Stones has a website at www.Steppingstones.org or make an appointment to see it. Another place is Bill's birthplace in East Dorset, VT. The Wilson House ~ www.wilsonhouse.org ~ has been fully restored. Rooms are available to stay in for a reasonable cost. Dinners are served family style and the food is great.

Bill and Lois are buried nearby. One of the most moving experiences is to go to Bill and Lois' grave and read the touching notes and see the pictures of children left there by those expressing undying gratitude to Bill's work.

Page 164 - Paragraph 2 is a place where people will lift something out of context in an attempt to prove a spurious point. "Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little." Some people seize upon this to mean that the instructions outlined in the book are optional. (Jim wrote an article on this topic. It was published in the April 2002 edition of The Grapevine entitled "Spiritual Kindergarten" by Jim K. of Manhattan - a copy of it is located in the "Files" section at the BBS home page.) What the first 100 knew only a little about was the spiritual experience. They had the answer to recovering from alcoholism. Keep in mind that Bill was sober only four years at the time the book was written. The word "suggestive," in this context, means "a starting point," or "a beginning." It means "an introduction to spiritual principles." AA is but a means to the end of living a spiritual life. Our lives aren't meant to be lived in AA but outside of it.

"The answers will come if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit what you haven't got." The "2 step" trap -- to carry the message effectively you need to have a message to transmit.

"Abandon yourself to God as you understand God (Steps 1, 2 and 3). Admit your faults to Him and your fellows (Steps 4, 5, 6, and 7). Clear away the wreckage of the past (Steps 8 and 9). Give freely of what you find and join us (Steps 10, 11, and 12). We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, (The Fellowship of God) and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny. May God bless you and keep you until then." In his classic style, Bill sums up at the end.

With our next post, we will wrap up our study cycle with Dr. Bob's Story. Then, we will post the Study outline/instructions. After that, we will begin a new study cycle.

With love,
Karen H.
DOS: 05/17/1993


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (308)
#17947 From: Jim K <jknyc@...>
Date: Thu Jan 8, 2009 11:25 am
Subject: Big Book Study - Post #38 		sottovoice
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Good Morning,
 
Chapter 11 - "A Vision for You" begins on page 151.
 
If you have been following along with the study from the beginning, you have learned much about Bill Wilson's writing style.  Let's recount what we've learned for those who have recently joined us.
 
There are several aspects of Bill's writing style which are pretty consistent throughout the book. First, Bill will make the same point in several different ways. Second, he tries not to repeat the same words over and over. Third, he sums up at the end of each chapter.
 
It is the third point that is pertinent for our discussion of Chapter 11. This is the final chapter in the main text of the book. We will see how he will "sum up" or recap what has been covered earlier.
 
The first three pages cover the introduction and the earlier parts of the book, disclosing to the reader what he may find. At the bottom of page 153 and through page 164, Bill recounts the beginnings of AA and gives a very general outline of AA's brief history. Bill doesn't identify the places or people who were instrumental in the beginning, although all of the essentials are there: Towns Hospital, Dr. Silkworth, The Mayflower Hotel, Akron Ohio, Dr. Bob, Bill Dotson (AA #3), Cleveland, New York, etc.
 
With our next post we will look at some of the high points of the history and look closely at page 164. Then we'll finish up with Dr. Bob's Nightmare.
 
Have a great day!
 
Jim
 

Weekend Big Book Studies with Jim & Dave - visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Big_Book_Seminars

 



Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (127)
#17946 From: tim forney <forneytim@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 11:42 pm
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		forneytim
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
ok fellow babies,suspose i went to a meeting and we all sat there and just looked at each other how long would i contuine to attent those type of meetings further more i heard stories of old timers that carried a 5th of liquior in there trunk of there car,later i learned they did it to save low bottom skid row drunks which in turn was "their own salvatition" and as days passed by i learned it was a learn as you go proposistion ,thats why they bash in my mind willingness is the key ,im glad for your post and revel in the feedback that came about you may have saved some lives in the process
love and service to you all

--- On Wed, 1/7/09, RedRitzCL <redritzcl@...> wrote:
From: RedRitzCL <redritzcl@...>
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 8:02 AM

After reading the responses, I thought long and hard about making a response myself.
As a recovering alcoholic, sobriety date, April 14, 04, am I concidered an expert on the topic???? Good question since I don't have any degrees or anything, just ESH.
I asked myself, do I really give a damn about whether this is a disease or not? Does it really matter to me? Then journaling this morning, I realized that I was typing "dis-ease". For that is exactly what it is to me today. A "DIS-EASE".

Brighest Blessings,
Carol Lee

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:17:39 PM
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

please do not take it personally. we like to jump up and down but know better then to take ourselves seriously.
ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: medickat37@yahoo. com
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:01:45 -0800
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Look I was asked a question about how I knew that alcoholism was considered a disease and I answered. There is no reason for any of you to jump down my throat about it.....
I know the Big Book just as well as any of you.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 3:34 PM

OK we'll get to change the BB, 'cause it's wrong!

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:04 PM

as afr as I am concerned the issue over whether alcoholism is a disease or not was brought up and I have a source that says it is a dibilitating disease...It is not irrelevant at all.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.














Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17945 From: Joe Mays <doorgunner_joe@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 5:39 pm
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		doorgunner_joe
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Thanks All for the birthday well wishes -- Joe

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@...> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 9:02 PM

Wow I hadn't noticed.  Happy Belated Birthday Joe.  I sent you a cybriety medallion separately and here is your cake.  Enjoy!
 
Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, R. Khu <rkhu00@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: R. Khu <rkhu00@yahoo. com>
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:54 PM

Happy 5th Birthday, Joe!! Thanks for showing that AA works!

Remi

----- Original Message ----
From: doorgunner_joe <doorgunner_joe@ yahoo.com>
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 5:11:30 PM
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

.. . . <snip>

peace -- Joe
DOS 01/05/04




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17944 From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 5:10 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		medickat37
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
My first post was yesterday to answer a question. I have been a member of this board for awhile just reading along.
I have noticed that it has become quite active in the last day. I am glad to see it starting to get busier....
Yesterday I guess was just a difficult day for me so I apologize for any harsh words.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@...> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:17 PM

please do not take it personally. we like to jump up and down but know better then to take ourselves seriously.
ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: medickat37@yahoo. com
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:01:45 -0800
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Look I was asked a question about how I knew that alcoholism was considered a disease and I answered. There is no reason for any of you to jump down my throat about it.....
I know the Big Book just as well as any of you.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 3:34 PM

OK we'll get to change the BB, 'cause it's wrong!

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:04 PM

as afr as I am concerned the issue over whether alcoholism is a disease or not was brought up and I have a source that says it is a dibilitating disease...It is not irrelevant at all.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.













Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17943 From: "rhinebeck2007" <rhinebeck2007@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 4:13 pm
Subject: When in doubt.... 		rhinebeck2007
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
The American Heritage Dictionary:

dis·ease n. 1. A pathological condition of a part, an organ, or a
system of an organism resulting from various causes, such as
infection, genetic defect, or environmental stress, and characterized
by an identifiable group of signs or symptoms. 2. A condition or
tendency, as of society, regarded as abnormal and harmful. 3.
Obsolete Lack of ease; trouble. [Middle English disese from Old
French des- dis-]

1. (n.) A pathological condition of mind or body:
     · affliction
     · ailment
     · bug (slang)
     · complaint
     · condition
     · defect
     · disability
     · disorder
     · indisposition
     · infection
     · infirmity
     · malady
     · sickness
     · trouble

Mike W.
Recovered Alcoholic

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#17942 From: "traceyfost" <traceyfost@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 3:58 pm
Subject: Re: hello everyone 		traceyfost
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com, les hymel
<cajunles2000@...> wrote:
>
> LMAO Me thinks Rhinebeck wrote that, just to get us started on
something; if so, it worked.
>  
> Page 17 Para 2
> We are people who normally would not mix
>  
> Page 19 Para 4
> Nothing would please so much as to write a book which would
contain no basis for contention or argument.
>
>
> Les Hymel
> 678-936-1080
>
> --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Francis Quinlan <cappyquinlan@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: Francis Quinlan <cappyquinlan@...>
> Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
> To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 6:42 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joe , there'll always be discussions /arguments/misleadi ng
statements in AA . But I take your point ,enough of the discussion .
AA says disease or not is an outside issue and thats that or is
it .Hey Joe ,for a PEACEFUL guy you sure have a strange email
address .A DOORGUNNER for godsake 
>
>
> Frank
> On 07/01/2009, at 10:11 AM, doorgunner_joe wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com, "traceyfost"
> <traceyfost@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > i am new to aa i have been sober 60 days and have been going to
aa 
> > meetings about 4 times a week. i really enjoy the meetings and i
find 
> > the bb very ineresting and it seems to restore hope when i had
no hope 
> > before. thank you for letting me become a member of this group
im 
> > hoping to learn more about the bb.
> >
> Hi Tracey and welcome to AA. Besides the Big Book we have another
book
> called The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions which is good
> supplemental reading. I hope you will stay until the miracle
happens
> for you too (if it hasn't already). 
> For those of you arguing over disease and malady, a gentle
reminder:
>
> Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions
>
> Step Two - "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves
could
> restore us to sanity."
>
> Now we come to another kind of problem: the intellectually
> self-sufficient man or woman. To these, many A.A.'s can say, "Yes,
we
> were like you--far too smart for our own good. We loved to have
people
> call us precocious. We used our education to blow ourselves up into
> prideful balloons, though we were careful to hide this from others.
> Secretly, we felt we could float above the rest of the folks on our
> brainpower alone. Scientific progress told us there was nothing man
> couldn't do. Knowledge was all-powerful. Intellect could conquer
> nature. Since we were brighter than most folks (so we thought), the
> spoils of victory would be ours for the thinking. The god of
intellect
> displaced the God of our fathers. But again John Barleycorn had
other
> ideas. We who had won so handsomely in a walk turned into all-time
> losers. We saw that we had to reconsider or die. We found many in
A.A.
> who once thought as we did. They helped us to get down to our right
> size. By their example they showed us that humility and intellect
> could be compatible, provided we placed humility first. When we
began
> to do that, we received the gift of faith, a faith which works.
This
> faith is for you, too."
>
> pp. 29-30
>
> peace -- Joe
> DOS 01/05/04
>
happy birthday Joe! you give people like me, who are new, faith in
the program. great sharing. thanks tracey

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17941 From: "traceyfost" <traceyfost@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 3:45 pm
Subject: disease 		traceyfost
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
hi everyone. i just wanted to say that alcoholism is a disease. there
is ample proof that children of alcoholics have a genetic dispostion.
they have a great chance of becoming alcoholics themselves. therefore
i consider it a disease. also i read that alcohol itself is not a
disability but it causes disabilitys like pancreatis and liver disease

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#17940 From: tim forney <forneytim@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 3:17 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		forneytim
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
hey im greatful to be a part of this as we know ,left to my own devices i "WILL" drink again down to brass tacks the doc explains i have an allergy to the drug ethal alcohol and im affected differently from my fellows,hence the first drink theroy,however page64 our liquor was but a symtom {it's not that "I CAN'T STOP"/IT'S WHY I START IN THE FIRST PLACE how often is it stressed work the steps why cant rebels stay sober i find my answers in the book and through sponsorship

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@...> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.









Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17939 From: RedRitzCL <redritzcl@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 1:02 pm
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		redritzcl
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
After reading the responses, I thought long and hard about making a response myself.
As a recovering alcoholic, sobriety date, April 14, 04, am I concidered an expert on the topic???? Good question since I don't have any degrees or anything, just ESH.
I asked myself, do I really give a damn about whether this is a disease or not? Does it really matter to me? Then journaling this morning, I realized that I was typing "dis-ease". For that is exactly what it is to me today. A "DIS-EASE".

Brighest Blessings,
Carol Lee

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@...>
To: bbs_open_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:17:39 PM
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone

please do not take it personally. we like to jump up and down but know better then to take ourselves seriously.
ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: medickat37@yahoo. com
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:01:45 -0800
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Look I was asked a question about how I knew that alcoholism was considered a disease and I answered. There is no reason for any of you to jump down my throat about it.....
I know the Big Book just as well as any of you.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 3:34 PM

OK we'll get to change the BB, 'cause it's wrong!

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:04 PM

as afr as I am concerned the issue over whether alcoholism is a disease or not was brought up and I have a source that says it is a dibilitating disease...It is not irrelevant at all.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.













Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17938 From: Jim K <jknyc@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 12:57 pm
Subject: Big Book Study - Post #37 		sottovoice
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Good Morning   !

We are beginning at the bottom of page 145. Reading through to page 148, there are many ideas that have been adopted by industry in general that are beneficial to helping alcoholics in the workplace.

Paragraph 2 on page 148:

"It boils down to this: No man should be fired just because he is an alcoholic. If he wants to stop he should be afforded a real chance."

In evidence today are the multitude of EAP programs that direct alcoholics to recovery.

Read to the bottom of page 149 - last paragraph:

"Today I own a little company (The Honest Dealers Association). There are two employees (Jimmy B and Bill) who produce as much as five normal salesmen. But why not? They have a new attitude, and they have been saved from a living death. I have enjoyed every moment spent in getting them straightened out."

That was the little automobile parts business that Hank ran and that Bill and Jimmy B. worked at. I don't suppose there was any exaggeration there? <wink>

The last chapter before going on to Dr. Bob's story and returning to the beginning of the book is Chapter 11 - "A Vision For You" on page 151. We'll begin there with our next post.
 
Have a great day!
 
Jim
 

Weekend Big Book Studies with Jim & Dave - visit: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Big_Book_Seminars

 




Windows LiveTM: Keep your life in sync. See how it works.

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (51)
#17937 From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 4:02 am
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		cajunles2000
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Wow I hadn't noticed.  Happy Belated Birthday Joe.  I sent you a cybriety medallion separately and here is your cake.  Enjoy!
 
Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, R. Khu <rkhu00@...> wrote:

From: R. Khu <rkhu00@...>
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:54 PM

Happy 5th Birthday, Joe!! Thanks for showing that AA works!

Remi

----- Original Message ----
From: doorgunner_joe <doorgunner_joe@ yahoo.com>
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 5:11:30 PM
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

.. . . <snip>

peace -- Joe
DOS 01/05/04



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17936 From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 3:17 am
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		ddlynn44
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
please do not take it personally. we like to jump up and down but know better then to take ourselves seriously.
ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
From: medickat37@...
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:01:45 -0800
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone

Look I was asked a question about how I knew that alcoholism was considered a disease and I answered. There is no reason for any of you to jump down my throat about it.....
I know the Big Book just as well as any of you.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@...> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 3:34 PM

OK we'll get to change the BB, 'cause it's wrong!

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:04 PM

as afr as I am concerned the issue over whether alcoholism is a disease or not was brought up and I have a source that says it is a dibilitating disease...It is not irrelevant at all.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.












Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17935 From: "R. Khu" <rkhu00@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 12:54 am
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		rkhu00
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
Happy 5th Birthday, Joe!!  Thanks for showing that AA works!

Remi


----- Original Message ----
From: doorgunner_joe <doorgunner_joe@...>
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 5:11:30 PM
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone

.. . . <snip>

peace -- Joe
DOS 01/05/04

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17934 From: "LES" <cajunles2000@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 12:05 am
Subject: Info For Yahoo Group Members 		cajunles2000
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
I'm not sure if this is the right place to get the info out, but here
goes:


If you belong to ANY Yahoo Groups - be aware that
Yahoo is now using "Web Beacons" to track every Yahoo Group
user. It's similar to cookies, but allows Yahoo to record
every website and every group you visit, even when you're not
connected to
Yahoo.
Look at their updated privacy statement at
http://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/details.html


About half-way down the page, in the section on *cookies*,
you will see a link that says *WEB BEACONS*.


Click on the phrase "Web Beacons." On the page that opens, on the
left find a box entitled
"Opt-Out."

In that section find "opt-out of interest-matched
advertising" link that will let you "opt-out"
of their snooping. Click it and then click the opt-out button on the
next page.

Note that Yahoo's invasion
of your privacy - and your
ability to opt-out of it - is not user-specific.
It is MACHINE specific. That means you will have to opt-out on every
computer (and browser) you use.

Please forward this to your other groups. You might
complain, too, but I'm not sure if anyone is listening. I
remember when they signed all users up to get spam and we had to
opt out of that a few years ago.

Related article:
http://antivirus.about.com/od/spywareandadware/a/yahoobugs.htm

Please pass this information to all of your
groups...

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (1)
#17933 From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Date: Wed Jan 7, 2009 12:01 am
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		medickat37
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Look I was asked a question about how I knew that alcoholism was considered a disease and I answered. There is no reason for any of you to jump down my throat about it.....
I know the Big Book just as well as any of you.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@...> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 3:34 PM

OK we'll get to change the BB, 'cause it's wrong!

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:04 PM

as afr as I am concerned the issue over whether alcoholism is a disease or not was brought up and I have a source that says it is a dibilitating disease...It is not irrelevant at all.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.












Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17932 From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:58 pm
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		cajunles2000
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
LMAO Me thinks Rhinebeck wrote that, just to get us started on something; if so, it worked.
 
Page 17 Para 2
We are people who normally would not mix
 
Page 19 Para 4
Nothing would please so much as to write a book which would contain no basis for contention or argument.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Francis Quinlan <cappyquinlan@...> wrote:

From: Francis Quinlan <cappyquinlan@...>
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 6:42 PM

Joe , there'll always be discussions /arguments/misleadi ng statements in AA . But I take your point ,enough of the discussion . AA says disease or not is an outside issue and thats that or is it .
Hey Joe ,for a PEACEFUL guy you sure have a strange email address .A DOORGUNNER for godsake 

Frank
On 07/01/2009, at 10:11 AM, doorgunner_joe wrote:

--- In BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com, "traceyfost"
<traceyfost@ ...> wrote:
>
> i am new to aa i have been sober 60 days and have been going to aa 
> meetings about 4 times a week. i really enjoy the meetings and i find 
> the bb very ineresting and it seems to restore hope when i had no hope 
> before. thank you for letting me become a member of this group im 
> hoping to learn more about the bb.
>
Hi Tracey and welcome to AA. Besides the Big Book we have another book
called The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions which is good
supplemental reading. I hope you will stay until the miracle happens
for you too (if it hasn't already). 
For those of you arguing over disease and malady, a gentle reminder:

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions

Step Two - "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity."

Now we come to another kind of problem: the intellectually
self-sufficient man or woman. To these, many A.A.'s can say, "Yes, we
were like you--far too smart for our own good. We loved to have people
call us precocious. We used our education to blow ourselves up into
prideful balloons, though we were careful to hide this from others.
Secretly, we felt we could float above the rest of the folks on our
brainpower alone. Scientific progress told us there was nothing man
couldn't do. Knowledge was all-powerful. Intellect could conquer
nature. Since we were brighter than most folks (so we thought), the
spoils of victory would be ours for the thinking. The god of intellect
displaced the God of our fathers. But again John Barleycorn had other
ideas. We who had won so handsomely in a walk turned into all-time
losers. We saw that we had to reconsider or die. We found many in A.A.
who once thought as we did. They helped us to get down to our right
size. By their example they showed us that humility and intellect
could be compatible, provided we placed humility first. When we began
to do that, we received the gift of faith, a faith which works. This
faith is for you, too."

pp. 29-30

peace -- Joe
DOS 01/05/04




Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17931 From: Francis Quinlan <cappyquinlan@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:42 pm
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		cappyquinlan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Joe , there'll always be discussions /arguments/misleading statements in AA . But I take your point ,enough of the discussion . AA says disease or not is an outside issue and thats that or is it .
Hey Joe ,for a PEACEFUL guy you sure have a strange email address .A DOORGUNNER for godsake 

Frank
On 07/01/2009, at 10:11 AM, doorgunner_joe wrote:

--- In BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com, "traceyfost"
<traceyfost@...> wrote:
>
> i am new to aa i have been sober 60 days and have been going to aa 
> meetings about 4 times a week. i really enjoy the meetings and i find 
> the bb very ineresting and it seems to restore hope when i had no hope 
> before. thank you for letting me become a member of this group im 
> hoping to learn more about the bb.
>
Hi Tracey and welcome to AA. Besides the Big Book we have another book
called The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions which is good
supplemental reading. I hope you will stay until the miracle happens
for you too (if it hasn't already). 
For those of you arguing over disease and malady, a gentle reminder:

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions

Step Two - "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity."

Now we come to another kind of problem: the intellectually
self-sufficient man or woman. To these, many A.A.'s can say, "Yes, we
were like you--far too smart for our own good. We loved to have people
call us precocious. We used our education to blow ourselves up into
prideful balloons, though we were careful to hide this from others.
Secretly, we felt we could float above the rest of the folks on our
brainpower alone. Scientific progress told us there was nothing man
couldn't do. Knowledge was all-powerful. Intellect could conquer
nature. Since we were brighter than most folks (so we thought), the
spoils of victory would be ours for the thinking. The god of intellect
displaced the God of our fathers. But again John Barleycorn had other
ideas. We who had won so handsomely in a walk turned into all-time
losers. We saw that we had to reconsider or die. We found many in A.A.
who once thought as we did. They helped us to get down to our right
size. By their example they showed us that humility and intellect
could be compatible, provided we placed humility first. When we began
to do that, we received the gift of faith, a faith which works. This
faith is for you, too."

pp. 29-30

peace -- Joe
DOS 01/05/04



Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17930 From: Francis Quinlan <cappyquinlan@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:20 pm
Subject: Re: Re: hello everyone 		cappyquinlan
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
It doesnt really matter what any member  says  IN  AA  . Its the FACT that AA doesnt proclaim it as a disease . Thats the issue at hand here , isnt it . But there again  , its an outside issue ,so we dont have to argue either  ,as per the jolly old traditions .  I certainly found it easier to explain the malady when describing it to non AA people who thought AA was passing the buck by calling it a disease . At that point I (too) was misled into thinking AA had indeed called it a disease  and was unaware it wasnt in our Text ,the book of Alcoholics Anonymous .
                                               The man who was sure we were hiding behind  our disease/illness/malady ,whatever its called , had a point . About that time ,our courts in Australia were seeking ways to address the problem of drinking and one of them was the 'sudden' appearance  of the "disease defence for crime involving intoxication .
                                              We dont see that excuse used in court nowadays  , I dont know what the reason is , but obviously if it had of worked , our newspapers would be full of it . I guess the issue has gone away . I suppose its the same in the United States because I dont hear about it  being touted as a disease any more .   But what the heck , it only matters to us if it means a difference in our program ,and it hasnt altered one bit ,just as the fact AA hasnt changed its mind either . 
United States might be the only nation that has declared alcoholism as a disease  . I could be wrong , after all its only my opinion .

Frank Quinlan  

On 07/01/2009, at 2:33 AM, Kitty wrote:




Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn.com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes. 

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.









Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17929 From: "doorgunner_joe" <doorgunner_joe@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 11:11 pm
Subject: Re: hello everyone 		doorgunner_joe
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
  
--- In BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com, "traceyfost"
<traceyfost@...> wrote:
>
> i am new to aa i have been sober 60 days and have been going to aa
> meetings about 4 times a week. i really enjoy the meetings and i find
> the bb very ineresting and it seems to restore hope when i had no hope
> before. thank you for letting me become a member of this group im
> hoping to learn more about the bb.
>
Hi Tracey and welcome to AA. Besides the Big Book we have another book
called The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions which is good
supplemental reading. I hope you will stay until the miracle happens
for you too (if it hasn't already).
   For those of you arguing over disease and malady, a gentle reminder:

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions

Step Two - "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could
restore us to sanity."

Now we come to another kind of problem: the intellectually
self-sufficient man or woman. To these, many A.A.'s can say, "Yes, we
were like you--far too smart for our own good. We loved to have people
call us precocious. We used our education to blow ourselves up into
prideful balloons, though we were careful to hide this from others.
Secretly, we felt we could float above the rest of the folks on our
brainpower alone. Scientific progress told us there was nothing man
couldn't do. Knowledge was all-powerful. Intellect could conquer
nature. Since we were brighter than most folks (so we thought), the
spoils of victory would be ours for the thinking. The god of intellect
displaced the God of our fathers. But again John Barleycorn had other
ideas. We who had won so handsomely in a walk turned into all-time
losers. We saw that we had to reconsider or die. We found many in A.A.
who once thought as we did. They helped us to get down to our right
size. By their example they showed us that humility and intellect
could be compatible, provided we placed humility first. When we began
to do that, we received the gift of faith, a faith which works. This
faith is for you, too."

pp. 29-30

peace -- Joe
DOS 01/05/04

Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17928 From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 8:34 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		cajunles2000
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
OK we'll get to change the BB, 'cause it's wrong!

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@...> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 2:04 PM

as afr as I am concerned the issue over whether alcoholism is a disease or not was brought up and I have a source that says it is a dibilitating disease...It is not irrelevant at all.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.











Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17927 From: "Joe Nugent" <joe-gent@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 7:21 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		owensounder33
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

The term malady would suit the problem, I agree.

Joe

 

From: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Matta
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 10:33 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone

 

Would the term Malady qualify??

 

Mark M

 

-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel

678-936-1080



--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@...> wrote:


From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@...>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group.

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism.

In Fellowship,

Mike W.

 


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17926 From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 7:04 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		medickat37
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
as afr as I am concerned the issue over whether alcoholism is a disease or not was brought up and I have a source that says it is a dibilitating disease...It is not irrelevant at all.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, les hymel <cajunles2000@...> wrote:

From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:58 AM

It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.










Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17925 From: les hymel <cajunles2000@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 4:58 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		cajunles2000
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
It's all "Outside Issues", therefore irrelevant

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@...> wrote:

From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 11:51 AM

Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@ yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.









Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17924 From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 4:51 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		medickat37
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Because I used to be a union stewart for a local hospital and I read the disabilities act due to having to defend a coworker.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@...> wrote:

From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:42 AM

How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.








Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17923 From: "Robert Stonebraker" <rstonebraker212@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 6:11 am
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		rstonebraker...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 

Hang in there, Brian - like a tic on a hound dog!

 

Bob S.

 

www.4dgroups.org

 

====================================================

 

 

From: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 1:07 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone

 

--- In BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com, "traceyfost"
<traceyfost@...> wrote:
>
> i am new to aa i have been sober 60 days and have been going to aa
> meetings about 4 times a week. i really enjoy the meetings and i
find
> the bb very ineresting and it seems to restore hope when i had no
hope
> before. thank you for letting me become a member of this group im
> hoping to learn more about the bb.
>

Great job Tracey-
Congratulations keep up the good work, keep coming
Brian K


Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17922 From: Christine Berger <colleenchris1966@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 3:42 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		colleenchris...
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
How do you know that??

--- On Tue, 1/6/09, Kitty <medickat37@...> wrote:
From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:33 AM

Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@msn. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.







Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17921 From: Kitty <medickat37@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 3:33 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		medickat37
Offline Offline
Send Email Send Email
 
Alcoholism is covered under the American Disabities Act as a dibilitating disease.

                                 
                           Sincerely, Kat
                               EMT-P
                   Flint, Michigan


--- On Tue, 1/6/09, seekerk ofpa <seekerk@...> wrote:

From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@...>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: bbs_open_discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:26 AM

The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
From: cappyquinlan@ bigpond.com. au
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholic s Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo. com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.







Reply | Forward | Messages in this Topic (41)
#17920 From: seekerk ofpa <seekerk@...>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2009 3:26 pm
Subject: RE: Re: hello everyone 		ddlynn44
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The AMA says it is a Disease. The program has not changed but what we know about alcoholism and the meetings have changed over the years. Also the idea of what is a disease and what is not has change. Back when the big book was written lou garics was not a disease either, neither was alzhimers or dozens of others that we now know are caused by physical, not mental causes.

Many peole do lean on the idea that since is is a disease they are helpless. I have another disease that leads me to a whole new way of thinking. In some ways it is like AA, and AA has helped me trememdously with it. I have to decided every time I eat or think about eating weather to be in pain and ill or not.
I now have the wisdom to know what was killing me so now I have the choice. I can not think my self able to do what I once did and think this time will be different. In that illness just one will make me sick and I just be on constatant watch because people love to hide it in food and think of it as a way to celabrate cheer. Funny thing is it also leads to mood swings, depression, brain fog and killing parts of my body. It is a disease and i choose to live in recovery not in Illness. Same with AA where do I want to hang my hat? Am I a sick and hopless drunk or have I found the solution?

Peresonaly I don't really care what lable anyone gives AA. If I follow the program as written in the big book I stay sober. It does not matter what I call it what matters is how I choose to act on it.

ONe more mile

To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
From: cappyquinlan@...
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:24:57 +1100
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone

Your last para says what I wanted to say ,better .

I knew there was something amiss when I had grown tired of hearing  that we have  a disease  and i thought this is being pushed too hard  .Then I progressed to learning more AA history and found more in the Big Book ,but more importantly what wasnt there ,ie  a definition of alcoholism saying it was a disease . The guys who were pushing it as a disease also didnt appear to be too hot on working the steps ,also gave me a clue to what was going on in the Fellowship as opposed to the Program .

Thank you .

Frank Quinlan
On 06/01/2009, at 3:24 PM, les hymel wrote:


Actually from what i read on the history, Bill wanted to call it a disease, however, he didn't want to offend the medical community, who didn't think it as a disease.  Now I suppose u could consider alcoholism a form of spiritual disease, however the BB doesn't say it is one.  In the forward to the 2nd edition on page xx(4th Ed.)/page xviii(3rd Ed), second paragraph-Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization.  Neither does A.A. take any particular point of view, though we cooperate widely with the men of medicine as well as with the men of religion.  Also the 10th tradiotio, particularly the long form.
 
Additionally I hear the argument that it wasn't classified as a disease until 1965.  We have had 2 Editions printed since then and numerous printings of each edition.  The internet as we know it only evolved in the 1980's or so and the 4th Edition has mention.
 
My main beef is that if I look at it as a disease, then I have something outside of myself to blame it on, as opposed to a spiritual disease within me, of which I alone am responsible for taking necessary action.

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Mark Matta <mjamatta@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [BBS_Open_Discussion] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:50 PM

Les, 
 
Sorry, but I should have been more through and considerate in my questioning.  I see the term malady used rather liberally in the text and see that as near, but not the same idas as the term disease. Bill was fond of using many different terms to make the same point or idea present for us.  Where did the term or ideal of the "disease concept" originate?  Les is most correct that the Big Book especially the Dr's Opinion does not use the word disease except one. Big Book, Page 64 where it describes the spiritual problems(disease) that evolve from resentments that many people alcoholic and non-alcoholic alike abound. I always heard the disease concept in meetings and after reading Les's comment I am having a few new thoughts on the matter. The disease term, may not be the way the author intended if he went to such lengths to use other terms with near complete exclusion of the word disease.  My compliments on your timely and accurate statement. 
 
Yours in Fellowship,
 
Mark Matta
724-219-3789
Pitcairn 12&12
3/24/97
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com [mailto:BBS_Open_Discussion@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of les hymel
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:35 PM
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Subject: Re: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone

Rhine I have to disagree with part of what u said.  Nowhere in the basic text does it say that alcoholism is a disease

Les Hymel
678-936-1080


--- On Mon, 1/5/09, rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>wrote:

From: rhinebeck2007 <rhinebeck2007@ yahoo.com>
Subject: [BBS_Open_Discussio n] Re: hello everyone
To: BBS_Open_Discussion @yahoogroups. com
Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 2:15 PM

From an opening statement at my home group. 

"Here, we believe that everything you need to know about recovery from
the disease of alcoholism can be found in the Big Book of Alcoholics
Anonymous. Our message is that recovery is possible for anyone who
is willing to follow its suggestions and put the principles of the 12
Steps to work in their life."

I know this to be true. I also know that much of what one hears in the
rooms of AA today is either only partially true - hence false - or
absolutely false. It was not until I became "willing to follow its
suggestions and put the principles of the 12 Steps to work in my life"
that I was able to recover from alcoholism. 

In Fellowship,

Mike W.






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