You make it sound such a nice and pleasant thing to do. I have only
ever heard it being described as unaceptable and something that loose
women do.  I am always afraid I will do it without meaning to or that
my attempts to be just friendly with a person could be misinterpreted.

I do love your version of what it is though. lol

Katrina

  In AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com, "zer92780" <zer92780@y...>
wrote:
> Flirting is definitely NOT foreplay, but it is a way of
acknowledging
> that one is aware of anOther person, that one finds the Other of
> some interest, that one finds pleasure in looking at or being in
> proximate space with this Other person.  It heightens delight in
> both participants.  It may take only a heartbeat, as strangers
> pass on the street.  A smile, a wink, a nod.  It sets off some sort
> of melody and probably releases a chemical reaction.  It's fun.
> Flirting never involves anything threatening, like contact or
coitus.
> Flirting among civilized people is just manners on a higher plane
> and from a time when ladies fluttered fans and eyelashes.
>
> Flirting is full of the charming courtesies that one person offers
> to another, as doors are opened with a flourish by strangers and
> as one waves a motorist to 'go ahead' in a crush of traffic. A wave
> or nod and a smile.  It makes life so much sweeter.  Try it.  -Zer
> (exploring the possibilities of being a sexy-genarian; yay, six-oh!)
>

I am 51.
>
> From: "zer92780" <zer92780@...>
> Date: 2004/06/29 Tue PM 09:56:01 EDT
> To: AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AS-and-Proud-of-it] Aspy Sexy-genarians?
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--On Wednesday, June 30, 2004 19:39 -0500 Kaiden Fox <admin@...>
wrote:

> Oh yeah!  I saw that on a news-magazine show about a decade ago.  Maybe it
> was TV Nation... maybe it was something like 20/20... it involved the
> contrast to the normally dour and/or shy Finns to the ballroom dancing
> craze that was sweeping the country like an Oklahoma dust storm.

Finns DO love to dance.  They make some of the wildest, weirdest psychedelic
trance music in the world.  The shamanic tradition is also not so far below
the surface there.


Ride the Music

AndyTiedye

They always said we were "young for our age" when we were growing up.
Why should we stop now?

All that stimmy stuff has kept me from turning into a couch-potato.
More on that later.


Ride the Music

AndyTiedye


--On Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:57 +0000 Katrina Irvine
<Katrina@...> wrote:

> Well I'm over the hill and 49, not so sure about the 'sexy' bit.....
>
> Katrina
>
> In AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com, "zer92780" <zer92780@y...>
> wrote:
>> Are there enough late-life Aspies to make up a list of Over-the-
> hill
>> Aspies?  Might be worth thinking about.  So, think on it! -Zer (who
>> likes the concept of Spectrumites, to embrace more folks than
>> maybe the Aspy end of the spectrum represents)
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

zer92780 jotted this down:
> Flirting is definitely NOT foreplay, but it is a way of acknowledging that
> one is aware of anOther person, that one finds the Other of some interest,
> that one finds pleasure in looking at or being in proximate space with this
> Other person.

Also keep in mind, of course, that many autistics show interest in others
differently from NTs, so NT-style flirting can be more of a chore for us than a
fun experience.  It's like trying to court somebody in a foreign language for
me... I do better with my native tongue!  (Well, that sounds dirty enough,
doesn't it...  ;)

Many of us might actually be "flirting" in our own language but not have a clue
because NTs don't respond or respond negatively.  My (NT) ex used to claim I
never showed interest in him at all, even though I was making a strong effort to
communicate "interest" at him.  Luckily I share the same autistic body language
with my current partner, so we can show interest on a natural level when we're
together.  Except when one of us starts emulating NT for some reason, in which
case a lot of confusion/chaos results instead!

--
Denise DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy
LJ: http://livejournal.com/users/moggymania

OMG, I saw the Finnish version of the tango on a retro-rerun just
recently.  Amazing to see the tango done by dispassionate folk!
They appear stolid, moving in couples to the rhythm, without any
hip action and with minimal body involvement associated with a
Latin TANGO as performed in professional dance competitions
by passionate men and women all tangled in an embrace!  -Zer

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39514, "Kaiden Fox" <admin@l...>
wrote: > Oh yeah!  I saw that on a news-magazine show about a
decade ago.  Maybe it was TV Nation... maybe it was something
like 20/20... it involved the contrast to the normally dour and/or
shy Finns to the ballroom dancing craze that was sweeping the
country like an Oklahoma dust storm.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "AndyTiedye" <nourse@t...>
> > The social expectation of eye-contact exists in many cultures,
but it is not universal.  When I have visited Finland I have always
felt really comfortable there--remarkably so for a foreign country.
> > I never understood why, until I overheard a couple of other
visitors, one remarking to the other "Don't make eye-contact with
the people here, they regard it as an invasion of privacy!."
> > Of course, that is perfectly natural for me!
> > AndyTiedye

Interesting.  I wonder if this is because of the shy-eye thing.  We
use our eyes as if we were flirting, looking away, then back, then
away.  Some folks take that as a dishonest marker.  Others may
take it as being sexy.  What an interesting aspect, an Aspy trait.

On the other hand (isn't there always another?), how stressful to
have someone come on to that 'signal' in an aggressive way. It
can be distressing.  I think that's part of what panicked me when
I was slim and 20something and got a great deal more attention
than I was prepared to cope with.  Just say no?  That was not in
my repertoire at that time.  But it is an option today.  Whew! -Zer
(wondering just how EXTREME ... well, better let that one go...)

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39513, "Kaiden Fox" <admin@l...>
wrote: > According to an article reprinted by Lenny Schaffer,
autism is a "sexy" diagnosis.  My own extreme sexiness adds
weight to that concept.

Oh yeah!  I saw that on a news-magazine show about a decade ago.  Maybe it
was TV Nation... maybe it was something like 20/20... it involved the
contrast to the normally dour and/or shy Finns to the ballroom dancing craze
that was sweeping the country like an Oklahoma dust storm.

----- Original Message -----
From: "AndyTiedye" <nourse@...>
To: <AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com>; <ASpergersCENTral@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: [AS-and-Proud-of-it] Gaze aversion (article)


> The social expectation of eye-contact exists in many cultures, but it is
not
> universal.
>
> When I have visited Finland I have always felt really comfortable there--
> remarkably so for a foreign country.   I never understood why, until I
> overheard
> a couple of other visitors, one remarking to the other "Don't make
> eye-contact
> with the people here, they regard it as an invasion of privacy!."  Of
> course,
> that is perfectly natural for me!
>
> Ride the Music
>
> AndyTiedye
>
>
> --On Wednesday, June 30, 2004 14:50 +0000 zer92780 <zer92780@...>
> wrote:
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/38y5u ~ This theory sure works for me!  I think
> > we all might explain this to those who are bothered by our gaze
> > aversion. It might help folks overcome their uneasiness as we
> > avert eyes or fight to keep eye contact as our natural impulse is
> > to avert. I do spend a LOT of energy jerking my eyes back to
> > make contact!  <g>  It clearly uses energy I might better use
> > elsewhere.  If I am able to explain that I am processing better
> > with eyes averted or shut, it may well eliminate some friction that
> > I've noticed in people I work with over the years.  Definitely will
> > save me some wasted energy in battling my natural impulse to
> > avert!  Thanks to Kathleen for this item! <vbg>  -Zer
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> >> Shifty Eyed Children: A shifty-eyed child is a little bit smarter
> > than the rest.  A new study shows that children who avert their
> > gaze while adults are speaking to them may in fact be
> > concentrating on taking in the facts rather than being distracted
> > by someone's face.
> >>
> > http://www.broughtonhall.com/Leading_Edge/internal/shiftyeyedc
> > hildren.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

According to an article reprinted by Lenny Schaffer, autism is a "sexy"
diagnosis.  My own extreme sexiness adds weight to that concept.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Denise DeGraf" <moggy@...>
To: <AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [AS-and-Proud-of-it] Re: Aspy Sexy-genarians?


Katrina Irvine jotted this down:
> Well I'm over the hill and 49, not so sure about the 'sexy' bit.....

Eh, it's perspective -- to somebody younger that prefers older folks, or
somebody older that prefers younger folks, or somebody that prefers AS
people in general and has very little grasp on age, you *are* sexy .  :-)

--
Denise DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy
"It's not 'being fussy' -- it's knowing what you want."
-- anon. waiter at restaurant





Yahoo! Groups Links

The social expectation of eye-contact exists in many cultures, but it is not
universal.

When I have visited Finland I have always felt really comfortable there--
remarkably so for a foreign country.   I never understood why, until I
overheard
a couple of other visitors, one remarking to the other "Don't make
eye-contact
with the people here, they regard it as an invasion of privacy!."  Of
course,
that is perfectly natural for me!

Ride the Music

AndyTiedye


--On Wednesday, June 30, 2004 14:50 +0000 zer92780 <zer92780@...>
wrote:

> http://tinyurl.com/38y5u ~ This theory sure works for me!  I think
> we all might explain this to those who are bothered by our gaze
> aversion. It might help folks overcome their uneasiness as we
> avert eyes or fight to keep eye contact as our natural impulse is
> to avert. I do spend a LOT of energy jerking my eyes back to
> make contact!  <g>  It clearly uses energy I might better use
> elsewhere.  If I am able to explain that I am processing better
> with eyes averted or shut, it may well eliminate some friction that
> I've noticed in people I work with over the years.  Definitely will
> save me some wasted energy in battling my natural impulse to
> avert!  Thanks to Kathleen for this item! <vbg>  -Zer
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>> Shifty Eyed Children: A shifty-eyed child is a little bit smarter
> than the rest.  A new study shows that children who avert their
> gaze while adults are speaking to them may in fact be
> concentrating on taking in the facts rather than being distracted
> by someone's face.
>>
> http://www.broughtonhall.com/Leading_Edge/internal/shiftyeyedc
> hildren.htm
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Good luck on things.  It might be interesting to go Quantum Psychological on
them and keep asking questions regarding the test.  (In quantum physics, the
nature of the experiment affects the results... Quantum Psychology is based
around the same principles of observers affecting what is observed by the
nature of their mode of observation).  For example, the whole, "are you
telling the truth about being from the DC area, or are you trying to see how
naturally I engage in social chit-chat?" question.

Katrina Irvine jotted this down:
> Well I'm over the hill and 49, not so sure about the 'sexy' bit.....

Eh, it's perspective -- to somebody younger that prefers older folks, or
somebody older that prefers younger folks, or somebody that prefers AS people in
general and has very little grasp on age, you *are* sexy .  :-)

--
Denise DeGraf ~*~ http://www.sonic.net/mustang/moggy
"It's not 'being fussy' -- it's knowing what you want."
-- anon. waiter at restaurant

Flirting is definitely NOT foreplay, but it is a way of acknowledging
that one is aware of anOther person, that one finds the Other of
some interest, that one finds pleasure in looking at or being in
proximate space with this Other person.  It heightens delight in
both participants.  It may take only a heartbeat, as strangers
pass on the street.  A smile, a wink, a nod.  It sets off some sort
of melody and probably releases a chemical reaction.  It's fun.
Flirting never involves anything threatening, like contact or coitus.
Flirting among civilized people is just manners on a higher plane
and from a time when ladies fluttered fans and eyelashes.

Flirting is full of the charming courtesies that one person offers
to another, as doors are opened with a flourish by strangers and
as one waves a motorist to 'go ahead' in a crush of traffic. A wave
or nod and a smile.  It makes life so much sweeter.  Try it.  -Zer
(exploring the possibilities of being a sexy-genarian; yay, six-oh!)

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39505, "Katrina Irvine" <Katrina@a...>
wrote: > mmmm...don' think I've encountered anybody worth
flirting with for a long time now. lol. To be honest I'm not entirely
sure what 'flirting' is, and as an aspie I would struggle to
recognise this in others and do it I think.
> Katrina
>
>  In AS-and-Proud-of-it, "zer92780" <zer92780@y...>
> wrote: > > Oh, some days it's all I can do to flirt a bit. <g>
-Zer(SoCal Aspy)

Wow, Kaiden, this hits a nerve (or two) and reminds me of the
'test' given me for my assessment in 2/04, by a man almost my
age who told me he often 'tests' kids who climb over him as if he
is not human but only a shape like a chair or table.  I am a large
woman of 60, who was self-dx'd and seeking confirmation.  I've
been asking health-care professionals for insights since 1970.
Anyone I heard about was petitioned to consider my plight, as I
worked or did not work, wept over relationship failures and was
told to exhibit my anger.  What anger?  Oh, I *MUST* have anger?
Well, I tried to find some.  But mostly I hoped someone would be
able to hand me a key.  No luck.  Not until I was turning 60 did I
find out about Asperger's Syndrome, from the mom of an autie.

The assessor is a psychologist at my HMO.  A nice man.  Gentle
and a bit tense (I sense) at being closed into his office with a
person who looms over him.  Even seated, I sense he is a bit
uneasy.  We shift his furniture to suit him, moving a table away
so that there is nothing now between us.  He takes a paper out
of his files and holds it between us as we talk, then he puts that
page away and fishes out another piece of paper, from which he
asks me questions.  I reply to questions about how I feel or how I
act.  He observes my hands, arms.  They are not in motion. I am
aware that he is observing, noticing. He modifies my responses,
indicating that he observes differently than I reply, as he talks to
me. So we move through a quiz about how I act/react to things. At
the end of the quiz, he totes up the values and announces I am
'likely Asperger' on his scale.  I astonish him by suggesting that
my own responses might have put me more firmly into the
Asperger range.  He blinks, as he assimilates the idea that he is
a factor in the score 'we' have just gotten.  Clearly, he is not
accustomed to factoring in his own filter -- and that fits in with his
candor in telling me that my HMO is not prepared to offer me any
help in understanding Asperger's Syndrome.  They are just now,
he says, beginning to offer kids and teens some workshops.

As I left, he handed me a biz card -- and I asked when we would
meet again, as his handing me a card might lead one to think
we were to be working together. He blinked, then gently said that
he was 'just' assessing me. We will not be working together.  He
was asked to assess me by a case worker I see at will (monthly,
just now) and may call on at will. She actually returns my phone
calls and is available for a chat, if that meets my needs, but she
too is candid about not knowing 'much' about this 'new' dx in the
DSM she goes by.  The case worker is a social worker, a lovely
young woman, who I'm pleased to know since she came to work
at this HMO about 6yrs ago.  Before she arrived, I was comfy with
her predecessor. It is nice to have access to a calm, comforting
sounding board.  Neither one credits my anxiety (about being a
lone woman of 60 with no job, no income) as a 'real' concern. To
them, it's an imagined spectre, not a looming reality. Curious, to
hear younger women assure me that it's not really a problem.

Not a problem from their perspective.  Not as they see the world.

The testing process of an adult Aspy clearly has to take into
consideration all the years of accommodating NT demands on
us and the perceptions or filters of the person doing the testing
and observing.  Oh, I love the phalanx of pins that feel cool on my
face as I press into it <g> and then look at the other side to see
my own face imaged by the loosely nested pins.  I met my first
such gadget in a designer's office, where I saw it as an executive
toy such as one finds in an office now and then.  It belonged to a
book designer, and I was then a textbook editor who was
delighted to find intelligent life in that dorky publisher's office --
and I celebrated his presence in our midst, for the time he was
permitted to exist.  Alas, he was too bright, probably brilliant. Was
he Aspy?  I think probably so.  That was decades ago.  Long ago,
long before I heard about Asperger's and felt the Aspy dx fit me
like a well-made glove.  Ah, it feels so comfy, so snug a fit! <g> It
hugs me, caresses me, like th softest leather glove. -Zer (who is
due 7/7/04 for an assessment from a bureaucracy that may -- or
may not -- classify me as disabled with a diagnosis that includes
my Aspy proclivities... traits... qualities... virtues... depending on
the viewpoint of a testing person who may offer ME blocks and
pinny-molding gadgets to 'observe' my response... egad!)

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39507, "Kaiden Fox" <admin@l...>
wrote: > I don't get it.  Seriously.  OK, there's this test, "autism
spectrum observational scale" or whatever.  I have no idea what
the hell is going on here.... I wish there was a way to prove I have
autism... something more physical and tangible..., rather than
simply behavioral.  The problem with behavioral analysis,
especially of an adult, is that the person making the decision is
often a neurotypical interacting with an autistic person's "talking
to strangers" persona.

I don't get it.  Seriously.

OK, there's this test, "autism spectrum observational scale" or whatever.  I
have no idea what the hell is going on here.

First, they have me do this thing with blocks.  It's obvious that it will
require all the blocks to cover the whole figure, but they're doling them
out a little at a time.  Some are red, some are yellow.  Am I supposed to
act like Christopher Boone and demand red ones?

Then, they have me "tell a story" using an illustration-only children's book
involving frogs on floating lillypads.

The tasks and interviews keep getting weirder and weirder.  And, all the
time I'm thinking, "Do I act like I know an autistic person is supposed to
act, or do I act in the way I know I 'ought' to act?"  I mean, just because
I'm chit-chatting doesn't mean I want to plow through the test, take the
MRI, get my human-subject research check and go home.  I mean, I'm not
connected to a polygraph or anything, so how are they supposed to measure my
stress or lack thereof?  The person administering the test gave me an
unofficial answer of "on the border, perhaps not on the spectrum but near
it."  On the trip home, the words "residual Asperger's Syndrome" popped into
my head (from Tony Atwood's book, "Asperger Syndrome, a guide for parents
and professionals.")

The weirdest part, and I know it's observational, is that they hand me three
magazines, a toy maze, a top, and one of those metal-rod things you'd find
at Spencer's Gifts... the kind that you can make impressions of you fingers
with.  I read the front covers of the magazines, start playing with the maze
thing until I realize it's impossible, spin the top a few times, and then
stim with the metal thing for the remainder of the interview/test.

Which is strange, because I was pronounced autistic on-the-spot by a
clinician who normally does things in two sessions... and I'm thinking this
is what wasn't including on the second session.  I guess my AQ score in the
mid 30's (which the person testing me today said was "rather low,") and the
scatter between my performance and verbal IQ (performance 112, verbal 135),
was enough to point to a diagnosis.

Worst thing is, on the can-you-describe-an-emotion part of it, I resorted to
literary descriptions.  I wasn't going from experience, but rather from what
I had read on the subject.

Thank god I was paid for my time.

I do hope I can take it again sometime, so that I can be a bitch.  For
example, in one part they show a map of the US with little icons regarding
what ever state's claim to fame is.  For example, there's a lobster in
Maine, a cow and some cheese in Wisconsin, the Space-Needle in Washington,
etc.  The tester asked if I had been to any of those places, and I mentioned
that I had gone to Washington DC., and visited the Smithsonian with my
father.  She said she was from there, asked me what my favorite Museum was,
and said that she had a favorite as well.  My response, upon Staircase Wit
style reflection, should have been, "are you really from there, or are you
attempting to engage me in chit-chat?  Because I really don't like being
lied to, and it seems unconvincing that you should happen to be from the one
noteworthy place I've visited."

Every so often, I wonder if I'm just a person with schizotypal personality
disorder who started talking later than usual, has odd obsessions, had bad
handwriting, has a learning disability regarding spelling despite having a
tremendous vocabulary and reading comprehension, has anger-management
issues, is really fidgety, is sensitive to gluten and casein, is
uncoordinated, and who has difficulty with chit-chat... but isn't *really*
autistic.

I wish there was a way to prove I have autism... something more physical and
tangible (other than my head size, which I inherited from my father), rather
than simply behavioral.  The problem with behavioral analysis, especially of
an adult, is that the person making the decision is often a neurotypical
interacting with an autistic person's "talking to strangers" persona.

____________________
"Free nations are peaceful nations.
Free nations don't attack each other.
Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction."
    --- George W. Bush, President of the United States of America

On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 08:21:39PM -0000, Katrina Irvine wrote:

> To be honest I'm not entirely sure what 'flirting' is, and as an
> aspie I would struggle to recognise this in others and do it I think.

When I was a teen, a relative came over with a young child (probably 1-2
years old).  The child was performing some type of gaze-teasing game
with me where it would stare at me, and the look away any time I would
try and look at the child.  My relatives that it was "cute" that the
child was flirting with me.  Needless to say, this merely helped to
increase the confusion I already had about this term.

Dave

mmmm...don' think I've encountered anybody worth flirting with for a
long time now. lol.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure what 'flirting' is, and as an
aspie I would struggle to recognise this in others and do it I think.

Katrina

  In AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com, "zer92780" <zer92780@y...>
wrote:
> Oh, some days it's all I can do to flirt a bit. <g>  -Zer(SoCal
Aspy)
>
> --- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39499, "Katrina" <Katrina@a...> wrote:
> > Well I'm over the hill and 49, not so sure about the 'sexy'
bit.....
> > Katrina
> >
> > In AS-and-Proud-of-it, "zer92780" <zer92780@y...>
> > wrote:
> > > Are there enough late-life Aspies to make up a list of
> Over-the-hill Aspies?  Might be worth thinking about.  So, think
on
> it! -Zer (who likes the concept of Spectrumites, to embrace more
> folks than maybe the Aspy end of the spectrum represents)

http://www.sweetpotatoqueens.com/spq/ ~ OMG, just LQQK! -Zer

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39502, tikigalharkins@w... wrote:
> Consider me there, dude at 44.
> A Cross Between a Pink Hatter and Sweet Potato Queen,
> Wanda

http://tinyurl.com/38y5u ~ This theory sure works for me!  I think
we all might explain this to those who are bothered by our gaze
aversion. It might help folks overcome their uneasiness as we
avert eyes or fight to keep eye contact as our natural impulse is
to avert. I do spend a LOT of energy jerking my eyes back to
make contact!  <g>  It clearly uses energy I might better use
elsewhere.  If I am able to explain that I am processing better
with eyes averted or shut, it may well eliminate some friction that
I've noticed in people I work with over the years.  Definitely will
save me some wasted energy in battling my natural impulse to
avert!  Thanks to Kathleen for this item! <vbg>  -Zer
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Shifty Eyed Children: A shifty-eyed child is a little bit smarter
than the rest.  A new study shows that children who avert their
gaze while adults are speaking to them may in fact be
concentrating on taking in the facts rather than being distracted
by someone's face.
>
http://www.broughtonhall.com/Leading_Edge/internal/shiftyeyedc
hildren.htm

Consider me there, dude at 44.
A Cross Between a Pink Hatter and Sweet Potato Queen,
Wanda


http://community.webtv.net/tikigalharkins/LETSTALKASPERGERS

Oh, some days it's all I can do to flirt a bit. <g>  -Zer(SoCal Aspy)

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39499, "Katrina" <Katrina@a...> wrote:
> Well I'm over the hill and 49, not so sure about the 'sexy' bit.....
> Katrina
>
> In AS-and-Proud-of-it, "zer92780" <zer92780@y...>
> wrote:
> > Are there enough late-life Aspies to make up a list of
Over-the-hill Aspies?  Might be worth thinking about.  So, think on
it! -Zer (who likes the concept of Spectrumites, to embrace more
folks than maybe the Aspy end of the spectrum represents)

Hi everyone,

Sorry about the crosspost but it's easier for me to just send to my address
book.

I've gotten several emails from people recently asking why I haven't been
sending news and articles to the lists.  I sent out an email a few weeks ago
mentioning that the News Blog wasn't working as well as I had hoped.  Putting it
up at my website wasn't working because some people didn't want to have to
remember to go to the site to check for news.  So I started the News You Can Use
group on Yahoo. I send items to the group and you can receive them individually
or in a digest. Or you can choose to go  nomail and view them at the group.

To subscribe click here:  NewsYouCanUse-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

If there's a particular subject that I'm not covering that you'd like to see,
just let me know. To write to me you can use my addy christinag@... or 
NewsYouCanUse-owner@yahoogroups.com

Any questions or problems, please write me.

Take care,
Christina


check out my website: http://stevens_mom.tripod.com/ or http://tinyurl.com/yqkxp
"These kids [with autism] are heroes, when you think about how hard they must
work, just to get through each day." Author Unknown
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best night and day to
make you like everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being
can fight and never stop fighting.  ~ E.E. Cummings
"Children with Autism have to be taught scientifically what "non-disabled"
children know instinctively." ~ Marc Segar
"I know of nobody who is purely Autistic or purely neurotypical. Even God had
some Autistic moments, which is why the planets all spin." ~ Jerry Newport
"Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal."
~ Albert Camus
"... if all my possessions were taken from me with one exception, I would choose
to keep the power of communication, for by it I would soon regain all the rest."
- Daniel Webster

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well I'm over the hill and 49, not so sure about the 'sexy' bit.....

Katrina

In AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com, "zer92780" <zer92780@y...>
wrote:
> Are there enough late-life Aspies to make up a list of Over-the-
hill
> Aspies?  Might be worth thinking about.  So, think on it! -Zer (who
> likes the concept of Spectrumites, to embrace more folks than
> maybe the Aspy end of the spectrum represents)

Kaiden et al., I'm not arguing.  My original Dr.L posting was about
my joy in using my hands, about the softness of fleece, the ease
with which one might create a blanket by cutting and knotting
fleece.  Somehow we got off on Dr.Laura's credentials (or lack).

Now that I am learning about Aspy habits, I'm recalling how I feel
when I do the simplest sewing, just mending socks even. It is a
radiant feeling, and I associate it with using my hands, moving in
a rhythmic pattern as I stitch.  Oh, there's no stitching with the
fleece blankets that are described on Dr.L's site, but there is a
knotting of a fringe all around all four sides.  I think I might get a
kick out of creating such a blanket.  And then I can cuddle. I do
not get to cuddle much.  The psychologist who assessed me
asked me if I like to cuddle -- and I could not answer.  What I
wanted to ask was what it feels like to cuddle.  Now I'm paying
more attention to taking care of me.  Cuddling sounds like a
great idea.  So, for me, the whole bit about Dr.L was about the
fleece, the handwork.  Nothing to argue about there.

I'm trying to be gentle with me, now that I am learning that I can
forget about blaming me for all the mis-steps all my life, all the
jobs lost, the people who got angry and I never knew why, never
understood why I was let go from jobs.  Sometimes I was told it
was not my work, that my work was fine, just that the people I
worked with were not comfortable with me.  I was told that, but I
never knew what to do about that.  Sometimes things were so
bad that no one explained anything.  I was just OUT!

But... that was then.  This is NOW.  -Zer(SoCal Aspy, 'new' at 60;
and what happened at Autreat with Amanda?  I'm clueless.)

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39497, "Kaiden" <admin@l...> wrote:
> Since you're talking to me, I'm going to assume you missed
Amanda's presentation at Autreat this year on institutionalization.
> .... I'm not sure what we're arguing about .....

> (who is curious about what Goodwin's Law might be; no energy
> for a list quibble just now, but thanks for the offer)

Any list quibble will, according to Goodwin, degenerate to the point where
analogies to the German National Socialist movement are made (or someone
flat out calls another person a Nazi).  At the height of their power in
Germany, the Nazis controlled all entertainment... and they were rather good
at it.

Entertainment is used, to varying degrees, to give messages.  Hell, even
this Yahoogroup is used by Yahoo and it's sponsors to tell us to, well,
whatever it is they tell us to do at the bottom of all the list messages.
The thing is, it's NOT just messages from the sponsors.  Saying that this
list is "entertainment" designed to bring us to the group's sponsors is just
as true, and just as false, as saying that "Dr." Laura's radio program is
the same thing.  From before the days of Asop, people have used various
media to influence the way people think.  The way the "Doctor" wishes to
influence others to think includes the institutionalization of the child.
Since you're talking to me, I'm going to assume you missed Amanda's
presentation at Autreat this year on institutionalization.

I'm not sure what we're arguing about, unless you either agree with the
"Doctor," or don't believe that her immediate recommendation for
institutionalization was what I'm saying it was... an immediate
recommendation for institutionalization... or perhaps you agree with her
clairvoyant assessment that "there is no place" that this child can be taken
to.  Right now, I believe we're discussing the level of danger inherent in
her continued advice-giving?  I think her advice is dangerous, especially to
those who "Dr." Laura makes decisions for with no input... for example this
eight-year-old.  I think his life is hard enough as it is without some
celebrity advocating his institutionalization sight-unseen, saying that he
"can't be fixed" as if he's some vandalized garden gnome, and telling the
world "there is no place" for him, other than in an institutional setting
surrounded by people who would be abusive prison-guards if they weren't
afraid of picking on adults who can actually talk.  (Although 40 out of the
50 states in the USA have been court-ordered to make their prison systems
more humane, I wish to point out that "abusive" is subset of "prison guard,"
rather than a descriptor of all guards).

My brain is telling me there's something else I need to add, but the only
thing I can think of is "Art and totalitarianism are not mutually
exclusive."  It's the motto of the band Laibach, and defines their driving
concept.  This is either something extremely essential to this discussion,
or totally tangential.  I'm not sure which, yet.

Are there enough late-life Aspies to make up a list of Over-the-hill
Aspies?  Might be worth thinking about.  So, think on it! -Zer (who
likes the concept of Spectrumites, to embrace more folks than
maybe the Aspy end of the spectrum represents)

I'm saying that I come to this list to find out more about Aspies, to
share what my recent dx of Asperger's means to me.  Today I
was examined by a doctor(internist) paid by USA agency that
may or may not agree to find my various conditions qualify me for
a disability income.  Asperger's is the lead condition, a lifetime
condition that is just the frosting on my cake.  In addition I am
having mobility issues, or immobility issues, as my balancing
mechanism appears to have worn out.  I tip over.  I'm uncertain,
at best, on even ground.  I'm hopeless on uneven ground.  It is a
condition related to a surgical intervention back in the mid-1970s
that resulted in a peripheral neuropathy from malnutrition. Wish
me luck in navigating bureaucratic hurdles.  Another doctor will
evaluate me mentally early in July.  Their doctor, not mine. I was
not adequately articulate in describing my symptoms today. One
can only hope the doctor will fill in the gaps, by observation. -Zer
(who is curious about what Goodwin's Law might be; no energy
for a list quibble just now, but thanks for the offer)

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39494, "Kaiden Fox" <admin@l...>
wrote: > I know you're not saying that *everyone* has this
perspective.  I know you're not saying that the children harmed by
people who follow "Doctor" Laura's advice "deserve it" simply for
having stupid parents... so what ARE you saying?...
> ...I'll stop before I trip over Goodwin's Law.

----- Original Message -----
From: "zer92780" <zer92780@...>
To: <AS-and-Proud-of-it@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:02 PM
Subject: [AS-and-Proud-of-it] Re: Support : Dr.Laura's advice


> Sorry you feel this way, Kaiden.  I do regard ALL MEDIA as what it
> is, simply someone's effort to make money from an audience. It
> helps me keep things in perspective -- on radio, tv, newspapers
> and other print media.  It's all salesmanship.  We are targeted.

I know you're not saying that *everyone* has this perspective.  I know
you're not saying that the children harmed by people who follow "Doctor"
Laura's advice "deserve it" simply for having stupid parents... so what ARE
you saying?

Yes, you find "Doctor" Laura entertaining.  Many people find faith-healers
entertaining, but it doesn't mean that they're not unqualified frauds.
Maybe it's an allistic trait to value style over substance, but I'm more
fond of the latter when it comes to asking others for advice.  I'm not
trying to compare "Doctor" Laura to a faith-healer, because at least
faith-healers do some good via the placebo effect.

I'll stop before I trip over Goodwin's Law.

Sorry you feel this way, Kaiden.  I do regard ALL MEDIA as what it
is, simply someone's effort to make money from an audience. It
helps me keep things in perspective -- on radio, tv, newspapers
and other print media.  It's all salesmanship.  We are targeted.

Media personalities are making a living.  Some are not as wise
as they might be, but they are making a living.  Period.

I'm sorry Dr.Laura is not wiser.  She is working to be snappy, to
keep an audience, to keep moving, to have a lively show. I do not
think she means to do injury, but I agree with you that she is too
often what she calls 'harsh' in her shoot-from-the-lip therapy. All I
can hope is that people who are seeking therapy will pursue it by
seeking professional help.  Just today she did advise a gal to go
to a psychiatrist (not just a casual therapist) to find out more and
get help in making a life decision.  Yay, said I, for that piece of
good advice.  I wish she would refer folks more often!  -Zer (who
hopes we all here can continue to support each other in our own
search for answers about living Aspy in today's world)

--- In AS-and-Proud-of-it#39492, "Kaiden Fox" <admin@l...>
wrote: > Zer, I realize I'm not going to be able to convince you of
anything.  I think I've said enough to convince any sane and
reasonable person....

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
OUCH!  THAT REALLY SMARTS!  FEELS AS IF I'VE BEEN
STUCK WITH A PIERCING STILETTO... EEEK, I'M BLEEDING!

WHIMPER....  WHEEZE.... GASP...... Uh-h-h-h-h--h---h----......-Zer

Zer,

I realize I'm not going to be able to convince you of anything.  I think
I've said enough to convince any sane and reasonable person that "Dr." Laura
is a dangerous person to ask advice from.  I won't keep re-iterating the
same issue, as you'll just keep finding ways to excuse her.  The "it's just
'entertainment'" argument has got to be the lamest to date, though.  Calling
her statement that "there is no where you can take this kid" SUPPORTIVE is
the height of cognitive dissonance.  If you are really believing what you're
saying, especially if you're believing that it's *both* "supportive" and
"just entertainment," there's no point in continuing this conversation with
you.