From: "John Barton" <jax760@...>

(jax760 at yahoo.com)



TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS

By John B.

Big Book Study Group of South Orange, NJ



1. Ohio: Akron (July 4, 1935)

2. New York City (Fall of 1935)

3. Ohio: Cleveland  - Abby G. Group (May 11, 1939)

4. New Jersey: The New Jersey Group (May 14, 1939)

5. Connecticut: Greenwich Blythewood Sanitarium (June 16, 1939)

6. Illinois: Chicago (September 13, 1939)

7. Ohio: Cleveland  Borton Group (November 16, 1939)

8. Ohio: Cleveland  Orchard Grove (November 20, 1939)

9. Washington, D.C. (December 1939)

10. California: San Francisco (December 1939)

11. California: Los Angeles (December 19, 1939)

12. New York: Orangeberg - Rockland State Hospital (December 1939)

13. Michigan: Detroit (December 1939)

14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13, 1940)

15. Texas: Houston  (March 15, 1940)

16. Arkansas: Little Rock (April 19, 1940)

17. Indiana: Evansville (April 23, 1940)

18. Ohio: Cleveland  West 50th Street Group (May 8, 1940)

19. New Jersey: Camden (May 14, 1940)

20. Virginia: Richmond (June 6, 1940)

21. Maryland: Baltimore (June 16, 1940)

22. Ohio: Dayton (July 8, 1940)

23. Michigan: Coldwater (Summer 1940)

24. Ohio: Cleveland  Berea (August 27, 1940)

25. Ohio: Cleveland  Westlake (September 20, 1940)



History Documents:

January 1939 AABB The Original Manuscript

April 10, 1939 AABB  1st Edition

June 1953, 12 & 12 - AAWS

1955 AABB  2nd Edition

1957 AACOA  AAWS

1980 DBGO  AAWS

1984 PIO  AAWS

1999 HIW  Mitchell K.

GSO Archives



Notes related to the formation of the groups.



A.A. Group # 1 Akron, Ohio



"The spark that was to flare into the first A.A. group was struck at Akron, Ohio

in June 1935, during a talk between a New York stockbroker and an Akron

physician."

(AABB 2nd Edition, p.xv)



Hence the two men set to work almost frantically upon alcoholics arriving in the

ward of the Akron City Hospital. Their very first case, a desperate one,

recovered immediately and became A.A. number three." (AABB 2nd Edition, p.xvii)



This refers to Bill's and Dr. Bob's first visit to A.A. Number Three. See the

Pioneer Section. This resulted in A.A.'s first group, at Akron, Ohio, in 1935.

(AABB 2nd Edition p.156)



"Before our visit was over, Bill suddenly turned to his wife and said, "Go fetch

my clothes, dear. We're going to get up and get out of here." Bill D. walked out

of that hospital a free man never to drink again. A.A.'s Number One Group dates

from that very day."  - Bill W.

(AAB 2nd Edition p.189)



"He came out of the hospital on the Fourth of July, 1935." (DBGO p.85)



Author’s Comments: If you read the Original Manuscript of the Book Alcoholics

Anonymous, it becomes abundantly clear in Chapter 11, "A Vision for You" that

the "Fellowship" of Alcoholics Anonymous was alive and growing in January of

1939.

"Then, in this eastern city there are informal meetings such as we have

described to you, where you may see thirty or forty, there are the same fast

friendships, there is the same helpfulness to one another as you find among our

western friends. There is a good bit of travel between East and West and we

foresee a great increase in this helpful interchange.

Some day we hope that every alcoholic who journeys will find a Fellowship of

Alcoholics Anonymous at his destination. To some extent this is already true."

(BBOM p.130)



The first 100, obviously considered themselves part of the A.A. fellowship

whether or not they were specifically calling their "informal meetings" A.A.,

OG, Drunk Squadrons, etc. We think any debates whether the eastern and western

cities mentioned are or are not the first "A.A." groups are pointless. Bill

Wilson and Bob Smith obviously considered their respective groups to be #’s 1 &

2 and that should set the standard by which we apply our analysis.



The anniversary date for Akron Group # 1 seems questionable. Bill however,

tagged it as the day that Bill Dotson was discharged from the hospital. DBGO

says this was July 4, 1935. Akron Intergroup advises that they go by the July

4th date.





A.A. Group # 2 Brooklyn, New York



A second small group promptly took shape at New York ... (AABB 2nd Edition,

p.xvii)



In the fall of 1935, Bill and Lois began to hold weekly meetings in their home

on Clinton Street. (PIO p.162)



"…At this juncture, the meeting -- the first meeting of the Manhattan Group,

which really took place in Brooklyn -- stopped, and it stopped for a very good

reason. That was that the landlord set Lois and me out into the street, and we

didn't even have money to move our stuff into storage. Even that and the moving

van -- that was done on the cuff. Well, it was then the spring of 1939.

Temporarily, the Manhattan Group moved to Jersey. It hadn't got to Manhattan

yet...



...Meanwhile, the Manhattan Group moved to Manhattan for the first time. The

folks over here started a meeting in Bert T.'s tailor shop. Good old Bert is the

guy who hocked his then-failing business to save the book Alcoholics Anonymous

in 1939. In the fall, he still had the shop, and we began to hold meetings

there. Little by little, things began to grow. We went from there to a room in

Steinway Hall, and we felt we were in very classic and good company that gave us

an aura of respectability. Finally, some of the boys -- notably Bert and Horace

-- said, "A.A. should have a home. We really ought to have a club." And so the

old 24th Street Club, which had belonged to the artists and illustrators and

before that was a barn going back to Revolutionary times, was taken over. I

think Bert and Horace signed the first lease."("The Road from the Table on

Clinton Street": Bill Wilson's Talk to the Manhattan Group, NYC, 1955)



Author’s Comments: This group was actually what this writer terms "The Bill &

Lois Wilson Road Show." After being evicted from 182 Clinton Street the New York

contingent met everywhere and anywhere over the next several months. Including

Montclair, NJ, South Orange, NJ, Green Pond in NJ, Flatbush in Brooklyn, Bert

Taylor’s Shop, Bert Taylor’s Loft, an apartment on West 72nd Street, Blythewood,

Steinway Hall, Rockland State Hospital, and finally the 24th Street Clubhouse.

(See PIO p.216-217) Based on Lois’s comments, Pass It On describes these as "At

least a dozen A.A. groups had evolved in the New York Metropolitan area..."

Unfortunately, this passage is misleading. We can see that this was actually a

dozen different meeting locations for the same group of 30 – 40 alcoholics. This

is clarified in Bill’s talk to the Manhattan Group in 1955.  The previous

paragraph in Pass It On explains it better when it says: "When they lived at

Clinton Street, A.A. meetings had been held there. A.A. followed Bill and Lois

wherever they went."



The New Jersey "contingent" split off from the New York Group and remained in

New Jersey when the Montclair meeting ended in mid June of 39. The NY contingent

crossed the river back to Manhattan and the Jerseyites began meeting in South

Orange at the home of Herb Debevoise continuing what had been started in

Montclair.



A.A. Group # 3 Cleveland, Ohio



On May 11, 1939, one month after the book had been published, a meeting was

held. It was a meeting of "Alcoholics Anonymous." It was a meeting held by, and

for alcoholics and their families only. Historian, Mary C. Darrah, wrote:



"In the years 1935-1939, the Oxford meetings provided a group experience for

the early alcoholics. A.A. did not meet as a separate group officially named

Alcoholics Anonymous until May 1939 at the home of Abby G. in Cleveland."

            (HIW p.141)



A.A. Group # 4 The New Jersey Group



Lois’s diary entry for May 14, 1939 indicates they went to the meeting at the

Parkhurst’s. (PIO p.217)



AACOA p.11, "We attended New Jersey’s first AA meeting, held in the summer of

1939, at the Upper Montclair home of Henry P..." (AACOA p.11)



A.A. Group # 5 Greenwich Connecticut



Marty pioneered a group in Greenwich so early in 1939 that some folks now think

this one should carry the rating of A.A.s Group Number Three. Backed by Dr.

Harry and Mrs. Wylie, owner of Blythewood, the first meetings were held on the

Sanitarium’s grounds.

(AACOA p.18-19)



In the summer of 1939 our New York member Marty had sponsored a prospect named

Nona.

(AACOA p.181)



"While Marty and Grenny were patients at Blythewood Sanitarium in Greenwich,

Connecticut, the two of them together with Bill persuaded Mrs. Wylie, the owner

to let them hold meetings there. (PIO p.216)



The first year was the hardest. I had plenty of prospects but few results. All

that long hot summer I went into New York once a week to the meeting, hoping a

woman might appear, find me, know that she was not alone and unique, and stay.

...Finally, in October, came Nona, whom I had met when I entered the sanitarium

nearly two years before. She came in wholeheartedly, a quiet girl not wanting to

be noticed, but she was there. Written by Marty Mann - (For Men Only? Anonymous

Grapevine – June 1960)



By way of friendly inquiry I have Lois referring to the first meeting at

Blythewood Sanitarium, in Greenwich, CT. as Friday, June 16, 1939 at which time

Marty was still a patient. (AA History Lovers # 2896, yahoo.com)



Author’s Comments: It is questionable whether or not this was actually a "group"

and not just a meeting. The date is questionable as well. Marty indicates in her

GV article that she was on the road attending meetings that long hot summer; not

exactly substantiating a group resident in Greenwich at the time. In AACOA Bill

calls this meeting "a group" so who are we to dispute that. This one may be

subject to further discussion.





A.A Group # 6 Chicago, Illinois



According to member list index cards kept by the Chicago group, Sylvia's date of

sobriety was September 13, 1939 (www.barefootsworld.net, Sylvia K.)

"He wrote to New York in September 1939 that the A.A.s in Chicago were

organizing a group and would have regular meetings." (DBGO p.181) Referring to a

letter written by Earl T.



A.A. Group # 7 Cleveland, Ohio - Borton



Group Number Two in Cleveland was called the Borton Group. This group met at the

home of T. E. Borton, a non-alcoholic friend of the A.A. fellowship. The meeting

was located at 2427 Roxboro Road in Cleveland. Its first meeting was held on

Thursday, November 16, 1939. (HIW p.150)



A.A. Group # 8 Cleveland, Ohio – Orchard Grove



Almost immediately thereafter, in another show of what Clarence sarcastically

called A.A. "unity," they split again on November 20th. Out of the Borton group

was born the Orchard Grove Group. The Orchard Group met on Monday nights at

15909 Detroit Avenue. The Orchard Group later changed its name to the Lakewood

Group. (HIW p.151-152)



A.A. Group # 9 Washington D.C.



At first he (Fitz) met with minimal success, but by the fall of 1939 the nucleus

of a small group had been established in Washington. He had been long a loner in

Washington, but Fitz was eventually joined by Hardin C. and Bill A.2 and was

also joined by Florence Rankin



Note 2. When Bill Wilson died in 1971, Donald E. Graham, now the publisher of

The Washington Post, but then a young man learning the family business from the

ground up, and working as a staff writer, interviewed me. Graham's story says in

part: "Bill A., an Arlington businessman, recalled that in December 1939, when

Alcoholics Anonymous was a small, little-known group, he went to New York to

meet Mr. Wilson. The next month Mr. Wilson helped start an AA chapter here, the

fourth in the country."



Sources:

"Alcoholics Anonymous", "Pass It On", "Bill W." by Francis Hartigan, "History of

AA in Maryland" from the website of the West Baltimore AA Group, private

communications from Lee C. Compiled by Nancy O.



Author’s Comments: Based on the comments of Bill A. this group would be December

of 1939. Arrival of Ned Foote. supports this. However, actual start of Group may

have been January of 1940. See PIO p.257 N2 Washington Intergroup History lists

date as October 28, 1939 but this is in variance with PIO. In lieu of

discrepancy we list this as the first group of December 1939.





A.A Group # 10 San Francisco, California



So it happened, that when an AA member from New York, Ray W., came to San

Francisco for a sales training course in November of that year he brought with

him a list of those who had made inquiries. Among them was Mrs. Oram’s boarder,

Ted.



From his room in the Clift Hotel on Geary Street, Ray called those on his list.

He finally arranged for some of them to meet with him in his room on Tuesday,

November 21, 1939.



It was there that the first meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous on the West Coast

was held. Aside from Ray and Ted, there were two others present, Don B. and Dave

L. and the meeting lasted about two hours.



As Ray mentioned, it had become clear that they would need to form an AA group

in San Francisco, where they all could meet regularly. Mrs. Oram offered her

kitchen as a meeting place. So shortly before Christmas, 1939, the first AA

group, the "San Francisco Group" began meeting in Mrs. Oram’s kitchen, and later

in various members’ homes. In October of 1940 they found a more or less

permanent site for their meetings in the Telegraph Hill Community House at 1736

Stockton Street in North Beach. (www.aasf.org)



AA’s First Meeting on the West Coast

(Adapted from C.N.C.A History, prepared by the CNCA Archives Committee,

September 1984)



Authors note: Ray W. is Ray Wood from the New Jersey Group of A.A.



A.A. Group # 11 Los Angeles, California



She and Chuck came to Los Angeles just in time to attend the first so-called

"home" meetings. This particular gathering was held at Kaye’s place on Benecia

Avenue on December 19, 1939. It included Kaye and Johnny, Lee and Chuck and a

number of prospects. (ACOAA  p.92)



A.A. Group # 12 Rockland State Hospital, NY



First A.A. Group in mental institution, Rockland State Hospital, NY (AACOA

p.viii)



A.A. Group # 13 Detroit, Michigan



Archie T. went to Akron and spent ten and one-half months living with Dr. Bob S.

and his wife. He says he got his AA direct from one of the founders. Archie read

Emmet Fox's Sermon on the Mount, and he said it changed his life.



In December, 1939, the first meeting of AA in Michigan was held in Arch T.'s

room on Merrick Avenue in the Art Center in Detroit. Present, besides Archie,

were Mike E., who became member #2 in Michigan, another alcoholic, and Sara

Klein, a non-alcoholic.



(Copyright© 1999-2006 Alcoholics Anonymous General Services of Southeast

Michigan)

http://www.aa-semi.org/

A.A. Group # 14 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania



On February 13, 1940, with about two years of sobriety, Jim and Rosa moved to

the Philadelphia area and started a group there.

(www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html)



A.A. Group # 15 Houston, Texas



The first Houston A.A. meeting was held March 15, 1940, in a room in the YWCA

Bldg. The group continued to meet on Tuesdays with as many as 25 attending --

but often a different 25 each time! Ed H. and Roy Y. tried to educate ministers

and doctors without much success until they were referred to Dr. David Wade at

Galveston State Hospital. Dr. Wade was to remain a good friend of A.A. (Bob P.

Unpublished AA History Manuscript)



A.A Group # 16 Little Rock, Arkansas



The first meeting of the three men - Sterling C, Harlan N, and Bud G - as an AA

group was in late May 1940 in the insurance agency office in the Wallace Bldg,

Markham and Main Streets. The group ran ads in the newspaper as they continued

to meet, and began to grow. (Bob P. Unpublished AA History Manuscript)



A.A. Group # 17 Evansville, Indiana



J. D. Holmes and the First A.A. Group in Indiana: Evansville, April 23, 1940"

The man who started A.A. in Indiana was a man named James D. "J. D." Holmes. He

was one of the original Akron A.A. group. He got sober in September 1936: if we

count Bill W. and Dr. Bob as numbers one and two, J. D. was A.A. number ten. On

May 30, 1938, he and his wife Rhoda moved to Evansville, Indiana, which is in

the extreme southwestern part of the state, on the banks of the Ohio River. He

was unable to get any other alcoholics in Evansville to join him until the Big

Book was published in 1939. Dr. Bob sent him a copy of the Big Book the minute

it came off the press, and with this new aid, he was able to reach out to a

local surgeon, Dr. Joe Welborn, after Dr. Joe's drinking finally landed him in

the county jail in April of 1940. Dr. Joe brought in other alcoholics who were

patients of his, and the first A.A. group in Indiana met on Tuesday evening,

April 23, 1940, in J. D. and Rhoda's home at 420 S. Denby St. in Evansville.

(http://hindsfoot.org/nfirst.html)



A.A. Group # 18 Cleveland, Ohio  - West 50th Street



On May 1, 1940 the West 50th Street Group broke away from the Orchard Grove

Group taking four members with them. The West 50th Street Group had their first

meeting on May 8th. By the end of its first year, that group had eighty-seven

members. They met at 3241 West 50th Street on Wednesday evenings. Its name was

later changed to the Brooklyn Group. (HIW p.169)



A.A. Group # 19 Camden, New Jersey



"Thanks so much for your letter of the 11th regarding Camden A.A. meetings to

begin Tuesday the 14th. We are more than glad to send along 30 of the A.A.

pamphlets to give you a start at Camden. They were mailed this morning - hope

you have them in time for first meeting.

. . . In the event we receive inquiries for assistance in the South Jersey area,

Alcoholics Anonymous speaking, may we take the liberty of refering them directly

to you?  Best regards to you all from the New York and Northern New Jersey

Fellowships." (GSO Archives Letter from Ruth Hock 5/13/1940 to J.R.Tucker)



A.A. Group # 20 Richmond, Virginia



In the spring of 1940, Ted C from Richmond, Virginia, was undergoing treatment

at Rockland State Hospital in New York -"the first [hospital in the East) to

enter into full scale cooperation with AA" So the New York office of AA,

learning that Ted C was returning to Richmond with a new business connection,

asked him to serve as the AA contact there. One of the first referrals was

McChee B, who was helped by Ted. The two men now hoped to start a group. The

first AA meeting in Virginia was held June 6, 1940 at McChee’s apartment with 12

present. However, as Bill W later recalled, they "believed in getting away from

their wives and drinking only beer." It didn’t work, and the group fell apart

almost immediately. (Bob P.AA History Manuscript)



Authors Comments: This group disbanded and re-started the following year. We

carry this group here because it was listed in A.A. Bulletin # 1, 11/14/1940, as

an active location.

A.A Group # 21 Baltimore Maryland



Jimmy (Burwell) was also responsible, later, for the start of A.A. in Baltimore.

The second Baltimore meeting, held in June of 1940, was attended by six people;

(PIO 258N)



On June 16, 1940, the two Jims met with three other men at Ridgely's home on St.

Paul Street. Several days later, Burwell received a letter in Philadelphia from

a Baltimore lawyer who wanted to help his alcoholic brother and offered his

office in the Munsey Building on Fayette Street as a meeting place. On June 22,

1940, the six men held the second Baltimore AA meeting in that office. (Nancy

Olson- History of AA in Maryland)



A.A. Group #22 Dayton, Ohio



Authors Comments: See note for Group # 26. Trying to substantiate this date for

Dayton.



A.A. Group #23 Coldwater, Michigan



...it appears that that there was AA activity in Coldwater, Michigan prior to

October 1940, which is alluded to in a letter dated May 7, 1941. The letter is

addressed to Mr. Walter P. and reads, in part: "I met a few of the Coldwater

group last summer on my trip through Michigan and I particularly remember Bill

F. who still writes quite often and always interestingly. I notice that

Hillsdale is close enough to Coldwater to make it feasible for you to attend

meetings there if you so desire." (1941 Letter from Ruth Hock to Walter P.)



A.A. Group # 24 Cleveland, Ohio – Berea Group



On August 27th, the Berea Group formed and met at the home of Bob J. It had nine

members and at the end of its first year, had grown to thirty members. On

September 3rd, the group moved from the home of Bob J. to St. Thomas Episcopal

Church Parish Hall in Berea. (HIW p.170)



A.A. Group # 25 Cleveland, Ohio – Westlake Group



On September 20th the Westlake Group branched off from the Orchard Grove Group

and began meeting at the Hotel Westlake. When the Westlake Group left Orchard

Grove, it took thirty members with it. The group later became the Lake Shore

Group. (HIW p.170)



Notes on Groups not listed above but included in the November 14, 1940 AA

Bulletin



Toledo and Younstown tie for # 26.



Duke never did pick up another drink. A few months later, in September of 1940,

he and the other Toledo members started their own group. (DBGO p.254)



By September of 1940, Cleveland was reporting to Bill in New York that, in

addition to its own six meetings and 400 – 500 members, Ohio had meetings in

Akron, Toledo, Youngstown, Dayton, Raveena, Wooster, and Canton. (DBGO p.262)



Authors Comments: "Meetings" do not constitute "groups". We include Youngstown

and Toledo as # 26 but not Raveena, Wooster and Canton in accordance with

"Groups" listed in A.A. Bulletin # 1 November 14, 1940.



Jackson, Michigan – Group start date unsubstantiated and group disbanded.



We had lots of fine members whom I remember with great affection. I have good

memories of Bernie W., Roy D., Butch and Jake (a she) C., Silvanus J., Bill H.,

Charlie S., Ruth W., Frank Mc., Beck U., and many others whose names don't come

up on my screen at the moment, although I could remember them with a bit of

jogging. We called ourselves Jackson Group #2, although there was not a #1 in an

active state. However, there was a group registered in the national AA directory

with Stan S. as a contact, but I never knew him and as far as I knew, it wasn't

meeting. I would be happy to review any records you have, but I do think you can

use December, 1939, as the starting time for AA in Jackson. It may have taken

some time to really get off the ground, but I think we have to call Al C., the

founder with later backup from Jack D.I hope this is of some help to you. Please

call if you have more questions and I'll try to help. All the best, Mel B.



Then we heard from Tom B.:

Bud S. the electrician told me that Jackson Group #1 folded after they lost

their meeting place when their landlord padlocked the hall. The present Jackson

Group, official registered in New York as Jackson Group #2, held its first

meeting on the first Sunday of September 1945. Where the meeting was held has

been forgotten but the date was confirmed by a copy of the minutes of business

meetings from 1950, 1951 and 1952 that I got from Bud C. whose late

brother-in-law had been group secretary in those years. Barb S. borrowed the

notebooks to read over, and lost them all in moving to Texas and then back to

Jackson. Tom says that Bud S. also told him that Al C. had a coffee shop in the

Otsego Hotel in the early 40's. One night each week, Al closed early so that AA

could meet in the coffee shop.



Copyright© 2006 The Jackson Group

http://www.aa-semi.org/



Waunakee Wisconsin – Local A.A. activity, but members attending meetings in

Chicago.



After an exhaustive search, I found no groups listed in Waunakee, Wisconsin

prior to October 1, 1940, however there was indeed mention of AA activity in

Waunakee, during this period. Early correspondence reveals that Harry S., of

Waunakee, WI, may have been the first individual to contact GSO from this city.

Harry’s earliest letter dates November 20, 1939 and reads, "I thank you for your

letter of the 14th I would be pleased to correspond with your Chicago membership

and perhaps would go there to see more of it."



In a letter dating July 24, 1940, Harry writes:



"My position as Chief Chef for the Mendota State Hospital, Mendota, Wisconsin,

(a suburb of Madison Wisconsin) brings me in close contact with all types of

alcoholics. A good many of these are more than anxious to stop drinking and are

well worth saving, as a matter of fact, I have talked to a number of them and

have outlined your procedure...I have had some correspondence with your Miss

Coultis of Chicago who has very kindly invited me to attend some of their

meetings there...I am eager to start a group in Madison and would so much

appreciate any information you might give me which would enable to do so."



There are few more letters from Harry in the file. Please note that letters from

Harry are all filed with other group correspondence in the "Madison" folder. 

(Asst. GSO Archivist Michelle M.)

I have taken some of John B.'s dates directly into master list we are setting

up.

 

I though it would be worthwhile to give my own additional notes however on four

places:



- - - -



We had Pennsylvania: Philadelphia 1st organizational meeting February 28, 1940;

Jimmy Burwell formed the Philadelphia Mother Group on March 6, 1940.



John B. gives Philadelphia February 13, 1940, using the date from the little bio

of Jimmy Burwell at http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaburwell.html



What do the folks from that part of the east coast say about this? Should it be

February 28 or February 13? And what documents or other kinds of evidence do we

have?



- - - -



We had Illinois: Chicago (Evanston) September 20, 1939, using the date of the

first meeting in Chicago, as given in the history of Chicago AA given to us by

Past Chicago Delegate Don Bennitt.

John B. gives Chicago September 13, 1939, using Sylvia K.'s sobriety date.



I think the date of the first meeting, since we now have it, is the more

appropriate one to give.



- - - -



We had California: San Francisco November 21, 1939, using the date when they had

their first meeting in Ray W.'s room at the Clift Hotel.



John B. give San Francisco December 1939, taking the date when the group started

meeting in Mrs Oram's kitchen.



I think the first meeting in Ray's hotel room ought to be counted as the

founding date, using the normal custom of calculating when AA started at a place

(that is, the group doesn't have to have a regular meeting place, as long as

they have actually started meeting).



- - - -



We had Michigan: Detroit January 4, 1940.



John B. gives Detroit December 1939, which is the date given on the Detroit

intergroup's website. (This is also the date given in

http://hindsfoot.org/detr0.html which is taken from the same Detroit intergroup

website.)



It seems to me that we ought to take John B.'s date here as the correct one.

Philadelphia, Washington State, Washington D.C.



PHILADELPHIA:



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@...>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



well, I don't know how important it is to quibble

over 2 weeks...BUT ...in regard to Philadelphia:

Jimmy arrived in Philly on February 13. The first

meeting was not held until Feb. 28. This date is

validated by  an existing letter that Jimmy sent

to Clarence S. the next day (Feb. 29--leap year)

in which Jimmy describes having a meeting with 7

drunks the day before.



-cm



- - - -



From: Shakey1aa@... (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



BTW the 1st planning meeting in Phila was on Feb  29th,1940. It was a

leap year. Jimmy sent a letter confirming the date to  Clarence "Snider"(He

misspelled Snyder) in Cleve.,Oh in a letter on file  at the S.E. Pa. I.G. Assn.

Archives.



There were alcoholics meeting in the office of Dr  C Dudley Saul two

years before Jimmy brought AA to Philadelphia.(1938) This can  be proven in

the documentation of John Park Lee. The meetings were not AA  meetings but

were meetings of alcoholic patients of the good doctor.



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, Pa



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



The date Feb 13 is the date Jim B moved to

Philadelphia, not the date he formed a group.

Even so, fifteen days was pretty quick work.



- - - -



WASHINGTON STATE:



From: buck johnson <buckjohnson41686@...>

(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)



Washington State, first meeting of the Seattle

Group, April 19, 1941 held at New Washington

Hotel.  From "Our Stories Disclose ... A history

of western Washington Area of Alcoholics anonymous

1939-2002", Second Edition page 12 &13. Published

by western Washington Area of Alcoholics Anonymous,

Seattle 2004.



Material from "The History of Washington State

Alcoholics Anonymous 1941...1966, copyrighted

1966 by Everett K.



- - - -



WASHINGTON D.C.



From: Shakey1aa@... (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



AAHL members,

How many of these groups, not meetings, flourished  and continued? How

many just met 1 or 2 times then stopped? How many can be  confirmed and not

just here say? I ask this because I remember that Bill and  Fitz both asked

Jimmy B to help out in Wash D.C. where AA was struggling and  couldn't get

off the ground. I've read what WAIA (Wash Area I.G. Assn) lists as  their

history and wonder what documentation they have that substantiates  the "boys of

38"



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, Pa

A group start date is based on when the second sober alcoholic shows up to join

with the first sober alcoholic. When they had the first meeting does not

determine the beginning of a group. That's the basis for defining the beginning

of AA when Dr Bob, the second alcoholic, joined with Bill W to form the AA

Fellowship (qualified by the date that Dr Bob had his last drink). It is also

the basis for defining the beginning of Akron Group #1 as July 4, 1935 when Bill

D left the hospital to join with Dr Bob to form Akron Group #1.



From other postings, I think care should be exercised in people today labeling

groups as so-called "meetings" as opposed to "groups." Early AA made no such

hair-splitting distinction. The long form of Tradition Three was first published

in the April 1946 Grapevine in the article "Twelve Suggested Points for AA

Tradition" and stated "... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for

sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group."



Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]

On Behalf Of Cindy Miller

Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:27 PM

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First AA groups: Philadelphia, Wash. State, Wash.

D.C.



Philadelphia, Washington State, Washington D.C.



PHILADELPHIA:



From: Cindy Miller <cm53@...>

(cm53 at earthlink.net)



well, I don't know how important it is to quibble

over 2 weeks...BUT ...in regard to Philadelphia:

Jimmy arrived in Philly on February 13. The first

meeting was not held until Feb. 28. This date is

validated by  an existing letter that Jimmy sent

to Clarence S. the next day (Feb. 29--leap year)

in which Jimmy describes having a meeting with 7

drunks the day before.



-cm



- - - -



From: Shakey1aa@... (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



BTW the 1st planning meeting in Phila was on Feb  29th,1940. It was a

leap year. Jimmy sent a letter confirming the date to  Clarence "Snider"(He

misspelled Snyder) in Cleve.,Oh in a letter on file  at the S.E. Pa. I.G. Assn.

Archives.



There were alcoholics meeting in the office of Dr  C Dudley Saul two

years before Jimmy brought AA to Philadelphia.(1938) This can  be proven in

the documentation of John Park Lee. The meetings were not AA  meetings but

were meetings of alcoholic patients of the good doctor.



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, Pa



- - - -



From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



The date Feb 13 is the date Jim B moved to

Philadelphia, not the date he formed a group.

Even so, fifteen days was pretty quick work.



- - - -



WASHINGTON STATE:



From: buck johnson <buckjohnson41686@...>

(buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)



Washington State, first meeting of the Seattle

Group, April 19, 1941 held at New Washington

Hotel.  From "Our Stories Disclose ... A history

of western Washington Area of Alcoholics anonymous

1939-2002", Second Edition page 12 &13. Published

by western Washington Area of Alcoholics Anonymous,

Seattle 2004.



Material from "The History of Washington State

Alcoholics Anonymous 1941...1966, copyrighted

1966 by Everett K.



- - - -



WASHINGTON D.C.



From: Shakey1aa@... (Shakey1aa at aol.com)



AAHL members,

How many of these groups, not meetings, flourished  and continued? How

many just met 1 or 2 times then stopped? How many can be  confirmed and not

just here say? I ask this because I remember that Bill and  Fitz both asked

Jimmy B to help out in Wash D.C. where AA was struggling and  couldn't get

off the ground. I've read what WAIA (Wash Area I.G. Assn) lists as  their

history and wonder what documentation they have that substantiates  the "boys of

38"



Yours in Service,

Shakey Mike Gwirtz

Phila, Pa









------------------------------------



Yahoo! Groups Links

True for you, Arthur -- but the creation of the service structure and thus of

Group Representatives (GRs, now General Service Representatives, GSRs) leads to

a quick test of what's a group and what's a meeting.  If it has a GSR or

according to the District it's in should have a GSR (or if it's an institutional

group that doesn't have anyone available to be a GSR because the GSR can't be a

facility employee or an inmate), it's a group.  Otherwise it's a meeting.



The text in the Third Tradition echoes "whenever two or three are gathered

together" from the Evening Service of the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer and

thus implies a continuing existence for the Group as a spiritual entity, as

opposed to a single meeting.



But of course we have meetings that go year after year, but aren't groups,

either because they have no officers (including a GSR) or because the group

holding the meeting has more than one meeting.  Thus the Fellowship Group in

District 65, Area 59, has twenty-eight meetings a week [Lebanon PA], as does the

Easy Does It Group in District 64, Area 59 [Lancaster PA].  On the other hand,

there is a Tuesday night meeting in District 65, Area 59, that, despite having

met every Tuesday for a decade, has no group structure (and no home group

members either, though there is one AA who has been there for, I think, more

than 500 of the meetings).  It's a meeting -- not a group.



- - - -



From: jenny andrews <jennylaurie1@...>

(jennylaurie1 at hotmail.com)



"... any two or three alcoholics gathered

together" goes back long before the Episcopal

Book of Common Prayer, and clearly echoes

Matthew 18:20 in the New Testament:



"19. Again I say unto you, That if two of you

shall agree on earth as touching any thing

that they shall ask, it shall be done for them

of my Father which is in heaven. 20. For where

two or three are gathered together in my name,

there am I in the midst of them."



Laurie A.



- - - -



> From: ArtSheehan@...

> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009

> Subject: Group start date: how it is defined

>

> A group start date is based on when the second sober alcoholic shows up to

join with the first sober alcoholic. When they had the first meeting does not

determine the beginning of a group. That's the basis for defining the beginning

of AA when Dr Bob, the second alcoholic, joined with Bill W to form the AA

Fellowship (qualified by the date that Dr Bob had his last drink). It is also

the basis for defining the beginning of Akron Group #1 as July 4, 1935 when Bill

D left the hospital to join with Dr Bob to form Akron Group #1.

>

> From other postings, I think care should be exercised in people today labeling

groups as so-called "meetings" as opposed to "groups." Early AA made no such

hair-splitting distinction. The long form of Tradition Three was first published

in the April 1946 Grapevine in the article "Twelve Suggested Points for AA

Tradition" and stated "... Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for

sobriety may call themselves an A.A. Group."

>

> Cheers

> Arthur

From Arthur S., GRault, and Larry Tooley



- - - -



"Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@...>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)



Hi Jared



I'm an active member in the General Service Structure and disagree with the

assertion that "... the creation of the service structure and thus of Group

Representatives (GRs, now General Service Representatives, GSRs) leads to a

quick test of what's a group and what's a meeting ..."



It is left to each individual to determine whether he/she is an AA member.

It is left to each two or three members to determine if they are an AA group

and how they conduct their internal affairs. That's the way I read Tradition

Three (long form) and Concept XII Warranty Six (pgs 74-75 - "Twelve Concepts

for World Service") which are not ambiguous on the matter. As desirable as

it may be (and I'd love to see every group have a GSR) there is no

qualification of whether a group is a group based on it having a GSR or not

or any other type of trusted group servant.



In my area, 27% of our 424 groups do not have a GSR (for whatever reason).

They are still AA groups and recognized as such. The only defined

restriction for a group in AA's principles (Traditions and Concepts) is "no

other purpose or affiliation" such as joining with Alanon to have "family

meetings" or with NA to have "alcohol and drug meetings" etc., etc. In AA

Comes of Age (pg 105) Bill W wrote: "... in its original 'long form,'

Tradition Four (sic s.b. Three) declares: 'Any two or three gathered

together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided that as a

group they have no other affiliation.'. This means that these two or three

alcoholics could try for sobriety in any way they liked. They could disagree

with any or all of A.A.'s principles and still call themselves an A.A. group

..."



From 1962 up to 1990 the Conference went through a torturous process of

attempting to define what an AA Group is which included defining terms such

as "groups" "meetings" and "gatherings." In 1980/1981 the "Six-point

definition of an AA group" was inserted in many literature items and in 1990

the Conference changed the definition of a group to consist of the long form

of the Third and Fifth Traditions.  This was changed again in 1991 (with a

change to the Service Manual) that stated:



"... The Long Form of Tradition Three and a section of Warranty Six, Concept

12, aptly describe what an A.A. group is:



Tradition Three: 'Our membership ought to include all who suffer from

alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought A.A.

membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics

gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group, provided

that, as a group, they have no other affiliation.'



Warranty Six: '. . .much attention has been drawn to the extraordinary

liberties which the A.A. Traditions accord to the individual member and to

his group: no penalties to be inflicted for nonconformity to A.A.

principles; no fees or dues to be levied - voluntary contributions only; no

member to be expelled from A.A. - membership always to be the choice of the

individual; each A.A. group to conduct its internal affairs as it wishes -

it being merely requested to abstain from acts that might injure A.A. as a

whole; and finally that any group of alcoholics gathered together for

sobriety may call themselves an A.A. group provided that, as a group, they

have no other purpose or affiliation."



The above remains the definition of an AA group in all AA literature that

defines what a group is (last acted on by the 2000 Conference).



"The AA Group" pamphlet, I believe, sows more confusion than clarity stating

(pgs 10-11): "Is There a Difference Between a Meeting and a Group?" It goes

on to state "Most A.A. members meet in A.A. groups as defined by the long

form of our Third Tradition (see page 42). However, some A.A. members hold

A.A. meetings that differ from the common understanding of a group. These

members simply gather at a set time and place for a meeting, perhaps for

convenience or other special situations. The main difference between

meetings and groups is that A.A. groups generally continue to exist outside

the prescribed meeting hours, ready to provide Twelfth Step help when

needed. A.A. groups are encouraged to register with G.S.O., as well as with

their local offices: area, district, intergroup or central office. A.A.

meetings can be listed in local meeting lists."



The above in some qualified cases makes sense but in many cases it does not

and it is inconsistent with the principle that a group has the autonomy "...

to conduct its internal affairs as it wishes ..." A group can have one

meeting a week - that might be all they can afford to rent a meeting room

(and it is all GSO asks for as one of the qualifications to be listed in the

national directory as an AA group). The group may not have a GSR but they

can have a "primary contact" who is a group member (that too is all GSO asks

for to be listed in the national directory as an AA group). The group might

not have a Central Office, Treatment Facilities or Corrections Rep but they

can have individual members who take the initiative to sign up to be a

contact for 12th Step calls to the local Central Office or join with other

AA members to take meetings into medical and penal institutions. They may

not have a Grapevine Rep but all the members may subscribe to it.



I could increase the list ad infinitum.



Cheers

Arthur



PS - trivia item: Alanon still uses the term GR for their Group

Representative.



- - - -



From: "grault" <GRault@...>

(GRault at yahoo.com)



I just don't see any source authority for Jared

Lobdell's statement in his first paragraph:



> a quick test of what's a group and what's a

> meeting [is that] if it has a GSR or according

> to the District it's in should have a GSR (or

> if it's an institutional group that doesn't

> have anyone available to be a GSR because the

> GSR can't be a facility employee or an inmate),

> it's a group.  Otherwise it's a meeting.



I especially don't see any authority for that

statement in light of the Third Tradition.



Is there any?  Surely any group can choose not

to have a GSR and still be an A.A. group.



- - - -



From: "Larry Tooley" <wa9guu@...>

  (wa9guu at charter.net)



I agree in theory buy not in fact. Usually a person who "runs" a group

is the GSR, Treasurer...ad infinites. It is a poor way to do it since a

business meeting should be called to elect officers. What I don't like about

this is the GSB usually gets no contributions.



A group that has many meetings is still the group. If somebody wants to

smoke, they can go to the group's business meeting and bring it up that

their meeting wants to smoke. Then the group can vote on it.

Hi! Arthur

As you point out, the Conference-approved pamphlet "The Group" says that "The

main difference between meetings and groups is that A.A. groups generally

continue to exist outside the prescribed meeting hours, ready to provide Twelfth

Step help when needed. A.A. groups are encouraged to register with G.S.O., as

well as with their local offices: area, district, intergroup or central office."

As I understand it, the means for existing outside of "meeting hours" -- that

is, to be more than simply a meeting -- is to have the service structure

suggested in that pamphlet, and to link with Intergroup (by means of an

Intergroup Representative) and with the General Service Structure (by means of a

GSR).  Hence my statement that the creation of the service structure leads to a

quick test of what's a group and what's a meeting.  I did not say that was AA's

view -- as you well know, neither I (having studied AA) nor you (having studied

AA and being an active member of the General Service Structure, as you say) can

speak for AA.  The "Twelve Concepts" may not be ambiguous, but the "Twelve

Concepts" plus "The Group" pamphlet seem to present a certain degree of

ambiguity (see also Jack Norris's attempt to distinguish between special-purpose

groups, which may suffer from the "other affiliations" problem, and

special-purpose meetings).  I remained convinced that, if there is to be a

distinction between a group and a meeting, it must lie in participation in the

service structure, and the quickest test is whether there is a GSR or could be

if requirements ("suggestions") for selection as GSR can be met.  Of course, if

a group which has two meetings says each one is a separate group, and claims the

right therefore to two GSRs, presumably General Service must go along with it (I

know an example in Area 59, District 36).  Yes, a group is a group if it says

it's a group, if you like -- that's the historical precedent, with which we as

historians are concerned -- but the proof (another historical precedent for much

of AA) is in the action. If it acts like a group, it's a group. If it doesn't,

what's the point of saying it is one? And btw, if there are no home-group

members, what is it that's a group? [P.S. -- I think NA refers to a GR, tho'

here I speak under correction.]--

Jared

From Arthur S., Tim T., and Jon Markle



- - - -



From: "Arthur S" <ArtSheehan@...>

(ArtSheehan at msn.com)



Jared on this one I guess we'll have to do the old friendly "agree to

disagree." There are two things though I find interesting:



1. By the definition of "a group vs a meeting" you advocate, none of the

early groups would qualify as a group



2. In a July 1946 Grapevine article titled "The Individual In Relation to

A.A. as a Group" Bill W wrote:



"... Yet Point Three in our A.A. Tradition looks like a wide-open invitation

to anarchy. Seemingly, it contradicts Point One. It reads, 'Our membership

ought to include all who suffer alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who

wish to recover. Nor ought A.A. membership ever depend on money or

conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may

call themselves an A.A. Group'. This clearly implies that an alcoholic is a

member if he says so; that we can't deny him his membership; that we can't

demand from him a cent; that we can't force our beliefs or practices upon

him; that he may flout everything we stand for and still be a member ..."



[Here's the part I find most interesting]



"... In fact, our Tradition carries the principle of independence for the

individual to such an apparently fantastic length that, so long as there is

the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most anti-social,

the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and

announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous Group has been formed.

Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti-our Recovery Program, even anti-each

other-these rampant individuals are still an A.A. Group if they think so!

..."



I rest my case.



Cheers

Arthur



- - - -



From: Tim T. <pvttimt@...> (pvttimt at aol.com)



I've always thought that a simple explanation is

that a group is registered with GSO and has a

group number. ???? A meeting is not registered.



Occam's razor anyone?



Tim T., an alky.



- - - -



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@...>

(serenitylodge at mac.com)



All that means absolutely nothing to most people, ya know.



The only explanation that makes any sense, or has any practical

reality is that the difference between a meeting and a group is

simple:  A meeting is not registered.  A group is registered.  That's

it.  Simple.



They both function in the same way.  The rest is simply an exercise in

semantics, as far as I can see.  And AA's will argue 'till pigs fly

over semantics!  <GRIN>



Most groups I'm familiar with, haven't got a clue what this much

detail means.  Nor do they care, in reality.  Too much organization at

this level and AA looses it's meaning for most people . . . except

those who get off, get their jollies on "control issues" and obsess

over the nitty gritty details of running things.



Such is NOT the AA that the average alcoholic is familiar with.

Neither do they (I) wish to have much to do with such emphatically

declared guidelines.



All groups remain autonomous.  Many groups simple ignore, or do not

care to subscribe to 12 concepts.  And there are many who do not even

subscribe to the suggested 12 traditions.  They still remain AA

groups, because they say they are and have no affiliation with any

other process.  They exist to carry the message of AA to the next

alcoholic.  They do not care about all this other bother.



So . . . I don't understand your post in that context.  But, I also do

not particularly care to understand it either.  Too much organization

simply makes "us" sick, in my experience.



Hugs for the trudge.



Jon (Raleigh)

9/9/82



- - - -



Original Message from: J. Lobdell

Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009



Hi! Arthur

As you point out, the Conference-approved pamphlet "The Group" says that

"The main difference between meetings and groups is that A.A. groups

generally continue to exist outside the prescribed meeting hours, ready to

provide Twelfth Step help when needed. A.A. groups are encouraged to

register with G.S.O., as well as with their local offices: area, district,

intergroup or central office."  As I understand it, the means for existing

outside of "meeting hours" -- that is, to be more than simply a meeting --

is to have the service structure suggested in that pamphlet, and to link

with Intergroup (by means of an Intergroup Representative) and with the

General Service Structure (by means of a GSR).  Hence my statement that the

creation of the service structure leads to a quick test of what's a group

and what's a meeting.  I did not say that was AA's view -- as you well know,

neither I (having studied AA) nor you (having studied AA and being an active

member of the General Service Structure, as you say) can speak for AA.  The

"Twelve Concepts" may not be ambiguous, but the "Twelve Concepts" plus "The

Group" pamphlet seem to present a certain degree of ambiguity (see also Jack

Norris's attempt to distinguish between special-purpose groups, which may

suffer from the "other affiliations" problem, and special-purpose meetings).

I remained convinced that, if there is to be a distinction between a group

and a meeting, it must lie in participation in the service structure, and

the quickest test is whether there is a GSR or could be if requirements

("suggestions") for selection as GSR can be met.  Of course, if a group

which has two meetings says each one is a separate group, and claims the

right therefore to two GSRs, presumably General Service must go along with

it (I know an example in Area 59, District 36).  Yes, a group is a group if

it says it's a group, if you like -- that's the historical precedent, with

which we as historians are concerned -- but the proof (another historical

precedent for much of AA) is in the action. If it acts like a group, it's a

group. If it doesn't, what's the point of saying it is one? And btw, if

there are no home-group members, what is it that's a group? [P.S. -- I think

NA refers to a GR, tho' here I speak under correction.]--

Jared

In Los Angeles our AA meeting directory says

that the first meeting in L.A. took place on

December 19, 1939 but that meeting died out.

The first meeting that lasted was started on

either the last Friday in March or the 1st

Friday in April, 1940, according to Mort

Joseph, who organized it.  In a talk given

in 1975, he said he never could remember

which Friday it was.  That was at the Cecil

Hotel in downtown Los Angeles, which still

exists.  It was called "The Old Mother Group."

After moving to several locations, it

eventually died out too.



History pamphlet:



http://www.lacoaa.org/HOW%20AA.pdf

Hello,

 

There has always been some cloud of controversy about the founding of AA in Los

Angeles. Kaye Miller, non-alcoholic, claimed that 1st meeting that was held in

her home on December 19, 1939 not only did not die out before Mort J. started

the Cecil Hotel meeting, but there were 2 meetings going at that same time. That

first meeting only met in her home for about 2 weeks and she went to Honolulu. 

The meeting moved to Barney H.'s home in Glendale.  Then back to her house on

Gower in Hollywood in February 1940 when she returned.

 

In a letter she wrote to Bill W dated February 8, 1947 she is recapping the

early history as she remembered.  In that letter she writes :"The very  first

meeting that Mort attend in LA  he attend at  my house on Gower street in

Hollywood. I had gone to Honolulu and returned in the mean time. I know it was

in April 1940 because it was a sort of double barrel affair, because it was a

celebration of Johnny Howe birthday so it was about the 14th of April. Mort

called me and I was so very happy to hear the voice of another sober alkie and

so now we has someone else to tell their story at our meetings."  In this same

letter she claimed that in February 1940 Lee[T.] started the group that became

the Pasadena Home Group.

 

Kaye was writing this letter to Bill because it was about this time period when

the history of AA in LA was beginning to get a little cloudy.  The letter not

only went to Bill but to several of the pioneers of AA in LA.  A carbon copy of

this letter is in the Area 9 Archives repository in Riverside CA.

 

Again in February 1951 this letter resurfaced because facts were becoming even

more distorted. Bill W. came to LA to help with the election of the 1st delegate

to the general Service Conference. At one of the meetings that weekend, Mort was

given the credit for starting AA in Los Angeles.  It seems the group of early

members that saw the LA's history the same way Kaye did, were upset and it

caused a great deal of controversy. Clyde D (future Area 5 Delegate) was

circulating her original letter asking Secretaries to read it at their meetings

There is another letter that was circulated by a member names Bud that also

debunked some of the facts that came out at that meeting.  But I guess it all

died down without any changes in their history.

 

The little booklet of How AA Came To LA that was written by the Southern

California Archives Committee in 1986 was nicely done.  I am sure the LA

Central archives had some of these same letters that I have seen from Kaye and

the others members concerning the early history. So I am not sure why their

version also differs. Their version even names the author of the "Lone Endeavor"

as Peter C.  Kaye's letter in 1946 named him as Pat C. I truely believe

this history was done mostly by information found on tapes and not hard

documentation. Oh by the way in that 1946 letter she stated Pat C had been going

to meetings again and was doing well. 

 

A couple years ago I was privilege to go to the GSO Archives in New York and do

some research on the history of Area 9. While there I did find some interesting

information on this subject. I saw at least 2 letters from Kaye to Bill just

before the book, AA Comes Of Age, was published pleading with him to correct the

book's version of the history of how AA got started in LA. She pleaded with him

to give some of the earlier members some of the credit as well as Mort. But it

seemed Bill only corrected Street names and a couple smaller facts but left out

some of the facts Kaye wanted added..

 

One last version that I found was in the February 1952 Grapevine.  This entire

issue is dedicated to AA in Los Angeles and San Francisco.  If you read AA Comes

of Age version of how AA started in LA and this article, it is two different

versions of the same story. This version is also more along what Kaye was

saying.

 

I served as the Area 9 Archivist from  1996 to beginning of 2009.  For almost 12

years I tried to get into the archives at the LA Central Office and was told it

was a closed archives. Just before I left California restrictions were lifed and

members are now able to go into that archives.  Members can only go in during

regular business hours Monday through Friday.  Due to my work schedule I was

never able to get by to do any research..  Maybe some archives committee or

concerned members can go do some research and maybe rewrite the history of how

AA really came to LA.  I am sure somewhere within all of the different versions

is how it really happened. Personally I would like to think it will be closer to

Kaye's version.

 

Hope this helps

 

Charles from Wisconsin

 

 

 

 

 





--- On Tue, 7/14/09, Charles Grotts <chuckg052284@...> wrote:





From: Charles Grotts <chuckg052284@...>

Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] First AA meeting in Los Angeles

To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

Date: Tuesday, July 14, 2009, 7:18 PM





 







In Los Angeles our AA meeting directory says

that the first meeting in L.A. took place on

December 19, 1939 but that meeting died out.

The first meeting that lasted was started on

either the last Friday in March or the 1st

Friday in April, 1940, according to Mort

Joseph, who organized it. In a talk given

in 1975, he said he never could remember

which Friday it was. That was at the Cecil

Hotel in downtown Los Angeles, which still

exists. It was called "The Old Mother Group."

After moving to several locations, it

eventually died out too.



History pamphlet:



http://www.lacoaa. org/HOW%20AA. pdf











































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Wash DC it's the boys of '39 (and Nov at that) tho' Florence and Fitz tried

independently in 1937 or 1938, apparently.  The 1995 WAIA History is on the net

w/o footnotes, tho' some letters are quoted.  The Maryland Archives I saw at

Minneapolis in 2000 have some letters from Ned F., but I don't recall if they

have anything useful.



> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com

> From: cm53@...

> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:26:33 -0400

> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: First AA groups: Philadelphia, Wash. State,

Wash. D.C.

>

> Philadelphia, Washington State, Washington D.C.

>

> PHILADELPHIA:

>

> From: Cindy Miller <cm53@...>

> (cm53 at earthlink.net)

>

> well, I don't know how important it is to quibble

> over 2 weeks...BUT ...in regard to Philadelphia:

> Jimmy arrived in Philly on February 13. The first

> meeting was not held until Feb. 28. This date is

> validated by  an existing letter that Jimmy sent

> to Clarence S. the next day (Feb. 29--leap year)

> in which Jimmy describes having a meeting with 7

> drunks the day before.

>

> -cm

>

> - - - -

>

> From: Shakey1aa@... (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

>

> BTW the 1st planning meeting in Phila was on Feb  29th,1940. It was a

> leap year. Jimmy sent a letter confirming the date to  Clarence "Snider"(He

> misspelled Snyder) in Cleve.,Oh in a letter on file  at the S.E. Pa. I.G.

Assn. Archives.

>

> There were alcoholics meeting in the office of Dr  C Dudley Saul two

> years before Jimmy brought AA to Philadelphia.(1938) This can  be proven in

> the documentation of John Park Lee. The meetings were not AA  meetings but

> were meetings of alcoholic patients of the good doctor.

>

> Yours in Service,

> Shakey Mike Gwirtz

> Phila, Pa

>

> - - - -

>

> From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...>

> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

>

> The date Feb 13 is the date Jim B moved to

> Philadelphia, not the date he formed a group.

> Even so, fifteen days was pretty quick work.

>

> - - - -

>

> WASHINGTON STATE:

>

> From: buck johnson <buckjohnson41686@...>

> (buckjohnson41686 at yahoo.com)

>

> Washington State, first meeting of the Seattle

> Group, April 19, 1941 held at New Washington

> Hotel.  From "Our Stories Disclose ... A history

> of western Washington Area of Alcoholics anonymous

> 1939-2002", Second Edition page 12 &13. Published

> by western Washington Area of Alcoholics Anonymous,

> Seattle 2004.

>

> Material from "The History of Washington State

> Alcoholics Anonymous 1941...1966, copyrighted

> 1966 by Everett K.

>

> - - - -

>

> WASHINGTON D.C.

>

> From: Shakey1aa@... (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

>

> AAHL members,

> How many of these groups, not meetings, flourished  and continued? How

> many just met 1 or 2 times then stopped? How many can be  confirmed and not

> just here say? I ask this because I remember that Bill and  Fitz both asked

> Jimmy B to help out in Wash D.C. where AA was struggling and  couldn't get

> off the ground. I've read what WAIA (Wash Area I.G. Assn) lists as  their

> history and wonder what documentation they have that substantiates  the "boys

of 38"

>

> Yours in Service,

> Shakey Mike Gwirtz

> Phila, Pa

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From J. Lobdell and Don Bennitt, three

corrections to John B.'s list



- - - -



From J. LOBDELL



> Original message from: "John Barton"

> <jax760@...> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

>

> TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS

>

> 12. New York: Orangeberg - Rockland State

Hospital (December 1939) wrong -- ORANGEBURG

>

> 14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13,

1940) WRONG -- FEB 28 -- Jim moved to Phila Feb 13



- - - -



From: DONALD BENNITT

<dbennitt@...>

(dbennitt at sbcglobal.net)



The Chicago date is incorrect.....September 13,

1939 is Sylvias' sober date, the first meeting

was September 20 1939.....



Don

In order to keep the first 25 list accurate

with source references please cite your source

for dates of groups.

 

i.e. Philadelphia & Chicago.

 

Thanks



- - - -



From J. LOBDELL

<jlobdell54@...>

(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)



> Original message from: "John Barton"

> <jax760@yahoo. com> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

>

> TIMELINE OF THE FIRST 25 A.A. GROUPS

>

> 14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13,

1940) WRONG -- FEB 28 -- Jim moved to Phila Feb 13



- - - -



From: DONALD BENNITT

<dbennitt@sbcglobal. net>

(dbennitt at sbcglobal.net)



The Chicago date is incorrect... ..September 13,

1939 is Sylvias' sober date, the first meeting

was September 20 1939.....



Don

For Philadelphia both Johnny L's letter to

Ruth Hock and Jimmy B's reminiscences are

available on line (silkworth and barefoot,

I think).



- - - -



> From: jax760@...

> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009

> Re: Timeline of the First 25 A.A. Groups

>

> In order to keep the first 25 list accurate

> with source references please cite your source

> for dates of groups.

>

> i.e. Philadelphia & Chicago.

>

> Thanks

>

> - - - -

>

> From J. LOBDELL

> <jlobdell54@...>

> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

>

> > 14. Pennsylvania: Philadelphia (February 13,

> 1940) WRONG -- FEB 28 -- Jim moved to Phila Feb 13