From John B (jax760), J. Lobdell, and Baileygc23

- - - -

From: "jax760" <jax760@...> (jax760 at yahoo.com)

"It does not seem necessary to defer to the feelings of our agnostic and atheist
newcomers to the extent of completely hiding our light under a bushel."  Bill W.
to Russ R. 1959 LTR

As he did so many times in many of his writings Bill quotes the Bible in
expressing everyday ideas. Here of course it's the Sermon on The Mount,  Matthew
5:14-16

Bill frequently disguised his religious (or spiritual if you prefer) thought so
as to not scare away the newcomer but his views and his "biblically based" ideas
i.e. "ancient principles" can be found throughout his published and personal
writings.

I think we can find the roots of all the slogans and substantiate them, or cite
sources for most of them.

From the AA History Book "Pass It On"

"Bill now joined Bob and Anne in the Oxford Group practice of having morning
guidance sessions together, with Anne reading from the Bible. "Reading… from her
chair in the corner she would softly conclude `Faith without works is dead.' "
As Dr. Bob described it they were convinced that the answer to our problem was
the Good Book. To some of us older ones, the parts that we found absolutely
essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th Chapter of First Corinthians
and the Book of James. The Book of James was so important, in fact, that some
early members even suggested "The James Club" as a name for the fellowship." –
p. 147

From the AA History Book "Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers"

"We already had the basic ideas, though not in terse and tangible form. We got
them…as a result of our study of the Good Book. We must have had them. Since
then we have learned from experience that they are very important in maintaining
sobriety. We were maintaining sobriety – therefore we must have had them." – p.
97

"Dr. Bob noted there were no 12 steps at that time and that `our stories didn't
amount to anything to speak of,' later said they were convinced that that the
answer to their problems was in the Good Book. `To some of us older ones the
parts that we found absolutely essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the 13th
Chapter of First Corinthians and the Book of James' he said. This was the
beginning of A.A.'s "flying blind period." They had the Bible; they had the
precepts of the Oxford Group. They also had their own instincts. They were
working, or working out, the A.A. program – the Twelve Steps – without quite
knowing how they were doing it." – p. 96

The Biblical Roots of the Slogans are as follows"

Live and Let Live (The Golden Rule) - Matthew 7:12
"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise."

Easy Does it (One Day at a Time) Matthew 6:34
"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for
the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

But for the Grace of God - 1 Corinthians 15:10
"But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon
me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all:  yet not I,
but the grace of God which was with me."

Think Think Think - Romans12:3
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not
to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly,
according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."

First Things First Matthew 6:33
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness;
and all these things shall be added unto you."

Some of these slogans are first discussed (from a history perspective) in one of
the Earliest Akron Pamphlets, The Akron Manual circa 1940-41 which tells the
newcomer: "There is the Bible that you haven't opened for years. Get acquainted
with it. Read it with an open mind. You will find things that will amaze you.
You will be convinced that certain passages were written with you in mind. Read
the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew V, VI, and VII). Read St. Paul's inspired essay
on love (I Corinthians XIII). Read the Book of James. Read the Twenty-third and
Ninety-first Psalms. These readings are brief but so important."

From this pamphlet:

Shortly after you leave the hospital you will be on your own. The Bible tells us
to put "first things first." Alcohol is obviously the first thing in your life.
So concentrate on conquering it."

"Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for
the things itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. -- Matthew VI,
34.
These words are taken from the Sermon on the Mount. Simply, they mean live in
today only. Forget yesterday. Do not anticipate tomorrow. You can only live one
day at a time, and if you do a good job of that, you will have little trouble.
One of the easiest, most practical ways of keeping sober ever devised is the day
by day plan, the 24-hour plan. You know that it is possible to stay sober for 24
hours. You have done it many times. All right. Stay sober for one day at a time.
When you get up in the morning make up your mind that you will not take a drink
for the entire day. Ask the Greater Power for a little help in this. If anyone
asks you to have a drink, take a rain check. Say you will have it tomorrow. Then
when you go to bed at night, finding yourself sober, say a little word of thanks
to the Greater Power for having helped you. Repeat the performance the next day.
And the next. Before you realize it you will have been sober a week, a month, a
year. And yet you will have only been sober a day at a time.

"There is an old saying, "Easy does it." It is a motto that any alcoholic could
well ponder. A child learns to add and subtract in the lower grades. He is not
expected to do problems in algebra until he is in high school. Sobriety is a
thing that must be learned step by step. If anything puzzles you, ask your new
friends about it, or forget it for the time being. The time is not so far away
when you will have a good understanding of the entire program. Meantime, EASY
DOES IT!"

From another of the earliest Akron Pamphlets:

"The road to rehabilitation is not as long as the road to alcoholism, but
neither is it as tough. If you have successfully made the Sixth and Seventh
Steps you will fully understand this. Always remember, easy does it. We must
take life and its problems a single thing at a time" The Akron Guide to the 12
Steps

a single thing at a time……… as in one day at a time…….. as in easy does it?)

As Jared mentions, one of the earliest uses of "But for the grace of God"….. is
John Bradford who I would suggest took it from Paul's letter to the Corinthians
slightly out of context but expressing the identical idea as Saint Paul.

As for Think Think Think and how it is used in Romans 12:3………..you be the judge.

Knowing the Biblical roots of our program as noted above,the fledgling
fellowship (the First Forty and One Hundred)modeling itself after another
fledling fellowship (The Oxford Group) modeling itself after another fledgling
fellowship (The First Century followers of the teachings of the Man from
Galillee) why should it surprise us that our slogans all came from the bible?

God Bless

John B

- - - -

From: "J. Lobdell" <jlobdell54@...> (jlobdell54 at hotmail.com)

I'm not sure what different slant is given by the word "there" before "the grace
[or Grace] of God" tho' there might well be a different slant according to
whether "Grace" is capitalized.  But my point was that the phrase long antedates
AA (so, for example, does "One Day At A Time" -- which was the title of a column
by William Lyon Phelps in the newspapers in the 1920s) and I figured AA history
doesn't start with AA (Washingtonians? Oxford Group?), so perhaps AA
historylovers might be interested in how this slogan started.  As I say, I'm not
sure I see a significant difference between "but for the Grace of God" and
"[There] but for the Grace of God" -- but they may well have different
connotations to different people.  I certainly agree that contentiousness is in
the eye of the beholder: it just happens that -- just in my experience -- the
view that alcoholics do not get sober on their own isn't particularly
contentious -- which was my other point here.

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@... (Baileygc23 at aol.com)

Although Bill W most likely went along with the
slogans, he did point out that the new comer is
sensitive to aggression in the name of spirituality.
God making me better off than the next person is
aggression. The beholder may think that we are
making fun of him.

So was he the first person to use the Twelve
Steps for another program?



from: "boydpickard" <boydpickard@...> wrote:
>
> Houston S. found AA in Montgomerty, Alabama in June 1944. He helped a man
named Harry, who also had a drug problem, get sober. Through this interaction
Houston was convenced that 12 Tweleve Steps could be applied to drug addiction
as well.
>
> So convinced that when his company transfered him to Frankfort, Kentucky,
Houston contacted Dr.Vogel of the US Public Hospital in Lexington Kentucky (
specializing in drug addiction)and Dr. Vogel allowed Houston start an Addicts
Anonymous Meeting using a modified version of the 12 steps of AA.
>
> Houston remained a loyal supportor attending meetings nearly week until 1963
when he turned his duties over to Sterling S. another AA member.
>
> Does anyone know this story and can anyone help me track down Houston's last
name. Some people say Houston Sewell and some say Houston Smith.
> Any help would be appreciated.
>

Thank you Jared

It's refreshing in a history forum to see a
posting with citation and source reference
rather than assertion and editorial. The
following citation is from the very first
chapter drafted by Bill W in preparation for
the publication of the Big Book. That chapter
is  "There Is a Solution" (pgs 24-25):

"When this sort of thinking is fully established
in an individual with alcoholic tendencies, he
has probably placed himself beyond human aid,
and unless locked up, may die or go permanently
insane. These stark and ugly facts have been
confirmed by legions of alcoholics throughout
history. But for the grace of God, there would
have been thousands more convincing demonstrations.
So many want to stop but cannot.

====================

AA's popular slogan plaques were first published
in 5 Grapevine issues from September-December1956
and February 1957. Four slogans are from the Big
Book: "But for the Grace of God" is from the
chapter "There Is A Solution" (on pg 25) as noted
above.

"Easy Does It," "First Things First" and "Live
and Let Live" are from the chapter "The Family
Afterward" (on pg 135). The slogan "Think,
Think, Think" is a bit of a mystery. Some say
it originated in Cleveland, Ohio in the mid-1940s,
however, its actual source is unknown.

The following is posted on the AA.org web site
at http://aa.org/subpage.cfm?page=287

". Q: What's the history of typical AA slogans
like "First Things First" and "One Day at a Time"?

A. We don't have a great deal of information
about the origins of AA's slogans and acronyms,
but we can provide some sharing and preliminary
information. Many of these slogans, as with
other practices in AA, were simply passed
along verbally to other members, so it is
impossible to know who started using them first.
It is possible that some of the slogans may
have originally stemmed from a part of the
Oxford Group Movement language, but it could
also be that they were original with Bill and
Dr. Bob and the early members.

Members have always inquired as to the origins
of various slogans, and it has always been
difficult to narrow down; in our research, we
discovered a letter written by former GSO
Archivist, Frank M., dated 1989, who responded
to a similar question that was posed to him.
This was Frank's response,

"Your interest in the origins of 'One Day at a
Time' is shared by many of us. Like hand-holding,
however, it's difficult to pin-point the exact
'moment.'"

That is the problem we find with most of our
AA slogans, unfortunately!

We do know, however, that many slogans commonly
heard have been around since the early days of
the Fellowship. In December of 1958 Ruth Hock
(non-alcoholic), who was AA's first secretary,
wrote a response to a similar question concerning
different slogans.  In her reply Ruth wrote:

"Bill [W.] and I first worked together in January
1936 when he had been sober just a little over
one year and at that time 'Easy Does It,' 'Live
and Let Live,' and 'First Things First,' were
part of the daily conversation. They were also
used in the very first drafts of the book, but
probably only Bill himself could tell you where
he picked them up.

"As far as I'm concerned all of the above were
introduced into A.A. by Bill W. himself although
not original with him. "Some of these could have
been used in Oxford Group meetings but there is
no way for sure."

In addition to Ruth's response, page 220 of
Bill W.'s biography, Pass It On, also addresses
this topic:

"Some 'A.A. saws' were also used as long ago as
the late 1930s: 'First Things First,' 'Easy Does
It,' 'Live and Let Live.'  Because these appear
in the first edition of the Big Book (at the end
of the chapter on 'The Family Afterward'), it's
probable that the use of the slogans originated
with Bill and that he brought them with him from
Vermont - old saws with new teeth. ."

====================

In regard to the Traditions, they are to the
Legacy of Unity what the Steps are to the Legacy
of Recovery and what the Concepts are to the
Legacy of Service - namely, the core spiritual
principles of the Three Legacies. The Traditions
are a body of spiritual principles whose objective
is unity not lock-step conformity. Likewise, by
explicit statement in its own Charter (Article
12), the Conference does not function in a
governance role.  The Conference Charter has 12
Articles, the 12th of which is also called "The
General Warranties of the Conference" or just
"Warrantees" for short. The 6 Warrantees in
Article 12 are a condensed version of the
Traditions to ensure that the Conference always
functions in the spirit of the Traditions.

In 1962, the General Warranties of the Conference
formed Concept 12 of the Twelve Concepts for
World Service.

The slogans are most definitely Conference-
approved. The 1952 Conference approved a list
(proposed by a special Trustees Committee on
Literature) of the then existing literature
items that were to be retained with Conference-
approval. Among those items were the Big Book
and the Long form of the Traditions (previously
released as a pamphlet in 1947). The 5 slogan
signs have been available as published AA
literature from the Grapevine for decades.

How someone wishes to view or interpret the
word "addiction" or any other term is a matter
of their individual conscience and it is
neither right nor wrong based on any notion
of Conference-approval - "Conference-approval"
has never been intended to be used in that
manner.

Literature is Conference-approved, thought is not.

Bill W was very explicit in "AA Comes of Age"
in stating: "For example, in its original "long
form," Tradition Four [sic - should be Tradition
Three] declares: 'Any two or three gathered
together for sobriety may call themselves an
A.A. group, provided that as a group they have
no other affiliation.' This means that these
two or three alcoholics could try for sobriety
in any way they liked. They could disagree with
any or all of A.A.'s principles and still call
themselves an A.A. group. But this ultra-liberty
is not so risky as it looks. In the end the
innovators would have to adopt A.A. principles
- at least some of them in order to remain sober
at all. If, on the other hand, they found something
better than A.A., or if they were able to improve
on our methods, then in all probability we would
adopt what they discovered for general use
everywhere. This sort of liberty also prevents
A.A. from becoming a frozen set of dogmatic
principles that could not be changed even when
obviously wrong. ."

Cheers

Arthur



-----Original Message-----

From: J. Lobdell
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 10:15 AM
Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"

"There but for the Grace of God [goes old John Bradford]" is the first use I
know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a former paymaster of the
King's forces at Calais who had embezzled funds (possibly for drinking), but
been converted by Hugh Latimer and made amends and restitution, on seeing
another embezzler of the King's funds being taken away to execution.  There
is no particular question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to
alcoholics -- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic"
existed.  It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may be)
don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided efforts -- and
I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or elsewhere.



> From: jennylaurie1@...
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:46:39 +0000
> Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
>
>
> Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example,
establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision
to publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be
diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans
which adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved;
though three of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz:
First Things First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but
for the grace of God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some
alcoholics are chosen for salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the
Serenity Prayer is not Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an
established part of our oral tradition. So, unless tested by the
Fellowship's group conscience as expressed at Conference, expressions heard
at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid, should be taken with a pinch
of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some are contrary to our
tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness."
>
> Laurie A.



> From: jdf10487@...
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700
> Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"

> AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and
common expressions.
>
> Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others
can't.  Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part
of authentic AA History as the coffee pot.  AA is as AA does, and AA does
use sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will.
>
> Sincerely, Jim F.



> From: johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...>
> Subject: RE: "Powerless over people places things"
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM
>
> The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is
absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon.  The topic is not
"people, places and things."  According to the Unofficial Big Book Search
Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text.  "People"
isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people
places things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic
literature of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation
"avoid people places and things" in the basic literature of those three
fellowships, although that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings
and NA meeetings. You'll hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at
virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in the basic text of AA either. I
don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book either [the one with the
black cover and ribbon].   Christ never said, "Keep coming back." He
> said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give."   In AA we
carry the message to those who still suffer.
> Pass it on.
> John Lee
> Pittsburgh



> From: Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@ comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: "People places things"
> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM
>
> The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page
> Dr. Paul's quote from page 417.
>
> The answer:
>
> The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the
> clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut
directions
> are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two
> personal experiences. "
>
> The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions.
>
> Bob S.



> From bridgetsbuddy
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
> Subject: Re: "People places things"
>
> What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some
person,
> place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me,
> and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or
> situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."
> ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No?
>

The more I think about it, the more I think "I find some person, place, thing,
or situation unacceptable to me" and "I must accept that person, place, thing,
or situation" means I'm powerless over it.  As somebody else said, the concept
is the same, & those words are in the Book.

Interestingly enough, if you go back & read that story (which is funnier than
Reader's Digest, IMHO), you'll notice that a LOT of the most frequently repeated
"cliches" come from that one story.

"A new pair of glasses," my "magic magnifying mind," "acceptance was the answer"
(heck!  people recommend reading that whole paragraph/page!), "my serenity is
inversely proportional to my expectations" - a BUNCH of them!

So I still don't think it is impossible for the use of the phrase "powerless
over people, places, & things" to have originated as a paraphrase, or
mis-quotation, from this story.  It may not have in actual fact come from that
story, but it is certainly not  beyond the realm of possibility.

That's my story, & I'm stickin' to it.

Marlo D.
Del Valle, Texas

On Jun 27, 2009, at 11:14 AM,
J. Lobdell wrote in Message 5835:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/5835

>"There but for the Grace of God [goes old John Bradford]" is the
>first use I know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a
>former paymaster of the King's forces at Calais who had embezzled
>funds (possibly for drinking), but been converted by Hugh Latimer
>and made amends and restitution, on seeing another embezzler of the
>King's funds being taken away to execution.  There is no particular
>question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to alcoholics
>-- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic"
>existed.  It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may
>be) don't recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided
>efforts -- and I'm not sure that should be contentious in A.A., or
>elsewhere.

Our slogan is not the same as the quote being "But for the Grace of
God," and I'm not at all sure "grace" is capitalized.  Quibbling,
perhaps, but it gives the meaning a different slant.

I belive the five slogans which start "live easy but think first" are
available from the New York Office, which lends a certain amount of
authority to them.  They originally appeared as slogans in the
Grapevine in the middle '50s according to Art Sheehan.

As far as any of them being contentious, I think that is entirely
dependent on the eye of the beholder.

Tommy H in Baton Rouge

- - - -

From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@...>
(serenitylodge at mac.com)

I do agree however, that the clear implication is that God's Grace is
predetermined to be available to some people but not all.
(Predestination is indeed a very hotly contentious religious dogma).

If/when I use that platitude, I always make sure that the grace *I*
understand is free and available to anyone and everyone.  The only
thing that makes the difference, is whether or not each of us chooses
to make use of that empowering grace.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

Houston S. found AA in Montgomerty, Alabama in June 1944. He helped a man named
Harry, who also had a drug problem, get sober. Through this interaction Houston
was convenced that 12 Tweleve Steps could be applied to drug addiction as well.

So convinced that when his company transfered him to Frankfort, Kentucky,
Houston contacted Dr.Vogel of the US Public Hospital in Lexington Kentucky (
specializing in drug addiction)and Dr. Vogel allowed Houston start an Addicts
Anonymous Meeting using a modified version of the 12 steps of AA.

Houston remained a loyal supportor attending meetings nearly week until 1963
when he turned his duties over to Sterling S. another AA member.

Does anyone know this story and can anyone help me track down Houston's last
name. Some people say Houston Sewell and some say Houston Smith.
Any help would be appreciated.

Hello Bill,
Thanks for the link to the "Big Book Name, Place, & Date References" – I
recently wondered if Jim and Fred were based on real individuals – this
reference gave some names I can track down.
On another note – I noticed an error that might bear correction. I don’t
know who wrote the reference, so I am putting this into the ether.
Listed under ‘We Agnostics’ (Page 56), the ‘approached by an alcoholic’
is linked to Bill Wilson, but based on Fitz’s story (Our Southern Friend), the
man who made this approach was another patient in Town’s Hospital. After this
approach was made Fitz had the ‘who are you to say there is no God’
experience. The following day he met some of the folks that had gotten free
(assumedly Bill was one of them). Nancy O’s bio of Fitz states essentially the
same thing.
I’m interested in finding out who the patient was, and what happened to him. I
wonder at the wording applied to this individual, being described as ‘an
alcoholic who had KNOWN a spiritual experience’ not ‘an alcoholic who HAD a
spiritual experience’ – as if to infer the man that made the approach
didn’t benefit from the info he transmitted to Fitz.  This may simply be a
matter of style and not substance.
In any case I would like any information other members might have about this
man.
Thanks so much,
Ron

--- On Thu, 6/25/09, Bill Lash <barefootbill@...> wrote:

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists,
and the hospitals?
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, June 25, 2009, 6:04 AM

For all the "Big Book Name, Place, & Date References" please go to:

http://www.justlove audio.com/ resources/ Assorted/ Big_Book_ Name_and_
Date_References.pdf

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

"There but for the Grace of God [goes old John Bradford]" is the first use I
know (1550?) of the phrase in English -- said, by a former paymaster of the
King's forces at Calais who had embezzled funds (possibly for drinking), but
been converted by Hugh Latimer and made amends and restitution, on seeing
another embezzler of the King's funds being taken away to execution.  There is
no particular question of predestination, nor is the phrase peculiar to
alcoholics -- in fact it was popularized long before the word "alcoholic"
existed.  It refers quite simply to the fact that we (whoever we may be) don't
recover (from any sin or sickness) by our own unaided efforts -- and I'm not
sure that should be contentious in A.A., or elsewhere.

> To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: jennylaurie1@...
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 07:46:39 +0000
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things"
>
>
> Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example,
establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision to
publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be
diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans which
adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved; though three
of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz: First Things
First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but for the grace of
God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some alcoholics are chosen for
salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the Serenity Prayer is not
Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an established part of our oral
tradition. So, unless tested by the Fellowship's group conscience as expressed
at Conference, expressions heard at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid,
should be taken with a pinch of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some
are contrary to our tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness."
>
> Laurie A.
>
>
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: jdf10487@...
> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700
> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and common
expressions.
>
> Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. 
Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of
authentic AA History as the coffee pot.  AA is as AA does, and AA does use
sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will.
>
> Sincerely, Jim F.
>
> --- On Wed, 6/24/09, johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...> wrote:
>
> From: johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...>
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things"
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM
>
> The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is
absent from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon.  The topic is not
"people, places and things."  According to the Unofficial Big Book Search
Engine, the word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text.  "People"
isn't the topic either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places
things" in the basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature
of NA or Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people
places and things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although
that nugget is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll
hear the chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but
that's not in the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the
Bigger Book either [the one with the black cover and ribbon].   Christ never
said, "Keep coming back." He
> said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give."   In AA we
carry the message to those who still suffer.
> Pass it on.
> John Lee
> Pittsburgh
>
> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@ comcast.net> wrote:
>
> From: Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@ comcast.net>
> Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"
> To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM
>
> The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page
> Dr. Paul's quote from page 417.
>
> The answer:
>
> The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the
> clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions
> are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two
> personal experiences. "
>
> The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions.
>
> Bob S.
>
> www.4dgroups. org
>
> ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========
>
> From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLo vers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy
> Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"
>
> What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person,
> place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me,
> and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or
> situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."
> ("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No?
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
> <mailto:AAHistoryLo vers%40yahoogrou ps.com> , Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ ...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
> > things" come from?
> >
> > Hugs for the trudge.
> >
> > Jon (Raleigh)
> > 9/9/82
> >
> > "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
> > Williams)
> >
> > "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
> > permanent." (M.McLaughlin)
> >
> > "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
> > stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
> > when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get the best of MSN on your mobile
> http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmailź has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_St\
orage_062009

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marcus Curry would fit for "Chief Psychiatrist of the State of NJ" -- more or
less -- but there's the possibility (given the "Dr. Howard") that it might be
Dr. Howard W. S. Potter (1892-1984), of New York (Letchworth Village), a
native-born Jerseyan (Elizabeth, I think) -- tho' I don't know where he was
living in 1939.  Perhaps someone could check the MS of Howard Potter's
reminiscences in the Columbia Medical Library.

> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> From: jax760@...
> Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 16:50:40 +0000
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2
psychiatrists, and the hospitals?
>
> Dr. "Howard" is thought to be an alias. He may have been Dr. Marcus Curry,
head of Greystone in 1939.
>
> Regards
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Carroll" <FriendLeeCPA@...>
wrote:
> >
> > The AA member was Hank Parhurst - he was living in Montclair NJ at the time.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Prominent psychiatrist was Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ
> >
> >
> >
> > Second psychiatrist was Dr Russell E. Blaisdell, Rockland State Hospital
> > near Orangeburg NY.
> >
> >
> >
> > My interpretation of ".the doctor agreed to a test among his patients." is
> > not that he had a test, per se, but rather, to test this program, which our
> > friend (Hank) had described.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Lee Carroll, CPA
> >
> > (805) 938-1981
> >
> >
> >
> > IRS Circular 230 Tax Advice Disclaimer:  As required by U.S. Treasury
> > Regulations governing tax practice, you are hereby advised that, if any
> > advice concerning one or more U.S. Federal tax issues is contained in this
> > communication (including any attachments), such advice is not intended or
> > written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding
> > penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or
> > recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
> >
> >
> >
> >   _____
> >
> > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rickcard47
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:21 AM
> > To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists,
> > and the hospitals?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA
> > member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test
> > among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what
> > was the hospital and clinic?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Hotmailź has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_St\
orage_062009

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dr. "Howard" is thought to be an alias. He may have been Dr. Marcus Curry, head
of Greystone in 1939.

Regards

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Lee Carroll" <FriendLeeCPA@...> wrote:
>
> The AA member was Hank Parhurst - he was living in Montclair NJ at the time.
>
>
>
>
> Prominent psychiatrist was Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ
>
>
>
> Second psychiatrist was Dr Russell E. Blaisdell, Rockland State Hospital
> near Orangeburg NY.
>
>
>
> My interpretation of ".the doctor agreed to a test among his patients." is
> not that he had a test, per se, but rather, to test this program, which our
> friend (Hank) had described.
>
>
>
>
>
> Lee Carroll, CPA
>
> (805) 938-1981
>
>
>
> IRS Circular 230 Tax Advice Disclaimer:  As required by U.S. Treasury
> Regulations governing tax practice, you are hereby advised that, if any
> advice concerning one or more U.S. Federal tax issues is contained in this
> communication (including any attachments), such advice is not intended or
> written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding
> penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or
> recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rickcard47
> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:21 AM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists,
> and the hospitals?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA
> member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test
> among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what
> was the hospital and clinic?
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Among the plethora of ideas discussed by our pioneers - for example,
establishing "AA" hospitals - about the only one to survive was the decision to
publish the Big Book. Early members were aware that the message could be
diluted, distorted and misrepresented when passed on orally. The slogans which
adorn the walls at so many AA meetings are not Conference-approved; though three
of them appear at the end of chapter nine in the Big Book, viz: First Things
First; Live and Let Live; Easy Does It. One slogan - There but for the grace of
God - is contentious, suggesting as it does that some alcoholics are chosen for
salvation and others condemned. Likewise, the Serenity Prayer is not
Conference-approved, though undoubtedly an established part of our oral
tradition. So, unless tested by the Fellowship's group conscience as expressed
at Conference, expressions heard at meetings, like e.g. Keep it simple stupid,
should be taken with a pinch of salt. Some are more helpful than others; some
are contrary to our tradition, e.g. "It (addiction) is all the same illness."

Laurie A.


To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
From: jdf10487@...
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:36:02 -0700
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things"







AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and common
expressions.

Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. 
Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of
authentic AA History as the coffee pot.  AA is as AA does, and AA does use
sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will.

Sincerely, Jim F.

--- On Wed, 6/24/09, johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...> wrote:

From: johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM

The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent
from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon.  The topic is not "people,
places and things."  According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the
word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text.  "People" isn't the topic
either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the
basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or
Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and
things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget
is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the
chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in
the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book
either [the one with the black cover and ribbon].   Christ never said, "Keep
coming back." He
said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give."   In AA we carry
the message to those who still suffer.
Pass it on.
John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@ comcast.net> wrote:

From: Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@ comcast.net>
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM

The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page
Dr. Paul's quote from page 417.

The answer:

The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the
clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions
are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two
personal experiences. "

The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions.

Bob S.

www.4dgroups. org

============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========

From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:AAHistoryLo vers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"

What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person,
place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me,
and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or
situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."
("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No?

--- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:AAHistoryLo vers%40yahoogrou ps.com> , Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
> things" come from?
>
> Hugs for the trudge.
>
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
> "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
> Williams)
>
> "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
> permanent." (M.McLaughlin)
>
> "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
> stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
> when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









_________________________________________________________________
Get the best of MSN on your mobile
http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

AA has a rich oral tradition which includes many sayings, slogans and common
expressions.
 
Some of these expressions can be found in the AA literature and others can't. 
Regardless of that fact, these saying and slogans are as much a part of
authentic AA History as the coffee pot.  AA is as AA does, and AA does use
sayings and slogans. It always has and I believe that it always will.
 
Sincerely, Jim F.

--- On Wed, 6/24/09, johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...> wrote:


From: johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] RE: "Powerless over people places things"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 4:56 AM









The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent
from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon.  The topic is not "people,
places and things."  According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the
word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text.  "People" isn't the topic
either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the
basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or
Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and
things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget
is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the
chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in
the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book
either [the one with the black cover and ribbon].   Christ never said, "Keep
coming back." He
said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give."   In AA we carry
the message to those who still suffer.
Pass it on.
John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@ comcast.net> wrote:

From: Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@ comcast.net>
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM

The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page
Dr. Paul's quote from page 417.

The answer:

The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the
clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions
are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two
personal experiences. "

The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions.

Bob S.

www.4dgroups. org

============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========

From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:AAHistoryLo vers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"

What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person,
place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me,
and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or
situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."
("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No?

--- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:AAHistoryLo vers%40yahoogrou ps.com> , Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
> things" come from?
>
> Hugs for the trudge.
>
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
> "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
> Williams)
>
> "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
> permanent." (M.McLaughlin)
>
> "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
> stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
> when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

For all the "Big Book Name, Place, & Date References" please go to:

http://www.justloveaudio.com/resources/Assorted/Big_Book_Name_and_Date_Refer
ences.pdf

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill




   -----Original Message-----
   From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of rickcard47
   Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:21 AM
   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2
psychiatrists, and the hospitals?




   I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA
member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test
among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what
was the hospital and clinic?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The AA member was Hank Parhurst - he was living in Montclair NJ at the time.




Prominent psychiatrist was Dr Howard of Montclair, NJ



Second psychiatrist was Dr Russell E. Blaisdell, Rockland State Hospital
near Orangeburg NY.



My interpretation of ".the doctor agreed to a test among his patients." is
not that he had a test, per se, but rather, to test this program, which our
friend (Hank) had described.





Lee Carroll, CPA

(805) 938-1981



IRS Circular 230 Tax Advice Disclaimer:  As required by U.S. Treasury
Regulations governing tax practice, you are hereby advised that, if any
advice concerning one or more U.S. Federal tax issues is contained in this
communication (including any attachments), such advice is not intended or
written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding
penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or
recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein.



   _____

From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of rickcard47
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:21 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Pg 163 who is the AA member, the 2 psychiatrists,
and the hospitals?








I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA
member was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test
among his patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what
was the hospital and clinic?





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am asuming that the large community is NY, but was wondering who the AA member
was, and what the test was that "that the doctor agreed to a test among his
patients". Also it mentions 2 psychiatrists, any ideas? And what was the
hospital and clinic?

--- Jon Markle <serenitylodge@...> wrote:
>
> It [sponsorship] is a part of the AA program that is not only "suggested" but
> essentially, a "must" if we want the full benefits of real recovery.
> Only those who are isolationists think otherwise.  IMO.
>
>> Just to play devil's advocate, Chuck Chamberlain in _A New Pair Of Glasses_
said "I've never had a sponsor in this program. Never." He elaborated (I can't
hold on to a copy of that book and so don't have one to quote from exactly) that
when he got to AA he didn't feel like he deserved that much attention from
anyone, and when he began to get better, he used everyone to help him learn what
to do and avoid doing. Clancy Imislund relates that when he made an appointment
with Chuck to ask for sponsorship, Chuck made small talk with him until the
question was popped and then said "My, I thought you were coming here to offer
to sponsor _me_."
Y'all's in service
Ted G.

The topic is "powerless over people, places and things", wnich cliche is absent
from the basic literature of AA, NA and Al-Anon.  The topic is not "people,
places and things."  According to the Unofficial Big Book Search Engine, the
word "people" is found on 78 pages of the basic text.  "People" isn't the topic
either. You won't find the cliche "powerless over people places things" in the
basic literature of AA. You won't find it in the basic literature of NA or
Al-Anon either. You won't locate the recommendation "avoid people places and
things" in the basic literature of those three fellowships, although that nugget
is heard frequently in rehabs, AA meetings and NA meeetings. You'll hear the
chanting of "keep coming back" at virtually every AA meeting, but that's not in
the basic text of AA either. I don't believe you'll find it in the Bigger Book
either [the one with the black cover and ribbon].   Christ never said, "Keep
coming back." He
  said, "Heal the sick...Freely have you received, freely give."   In AA we carry
the message to those who still suffer.
Pass it on.
John Lee
Pittsburgh

--- On Tue, 6/23/09, Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@...> wrote:


From: Robert Stonebraker <rstonebraker212@...>
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 5:50 PM








The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page
Dr. Paul's quote from page 417.

The answer:

The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the
clear cut directions. Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions
are given showing how we recovered. These are followed by forty-two
personal experiences. "

The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions.

Bob S.

www.4dgroups. org

============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========

From: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"

What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person,
place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me,
and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or
situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."
("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No?

--- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com
<mailto:AAHistoryLo vers%40yahoogrou ps.com> , Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ ...>
wrote:
>
> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
> things" come from?
>
> Hugs for the trudge.
>
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
> "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
> Williams)
>
> "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
> permanent." (M.McLaughlin)
>
> "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
> stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
> when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 6/24/2009 1:51:54 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
serenitylodge@... writes:

It is  a part of the AA program that is not only "suggested" but
essentially, a  "must" if we want the full benefits of real recovery.
Only those who are  isolationists think otherwise. IMO.
Bill W said there was no dogma.  Is there dogma  now?

We have to  be careful we do not end up a  cult. The only way not to be a
cult is not to do cultist things.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My . . . thanks for all that hard work.

Unfortunately, concrete evidence of the phrase "powerless over people
places and things" is still very illusive.

The phrase / concept I'm trying to trace is *POWERLESS OVER PEOPLE
PLACES AND THINGS" . . . not just the words/phrase, "people places and
things".  There's a big difference.

In fact almost all of these quotes are in contexts that appear to
reference empowerment . . . not powerlessness . . . and the emphasis
is on "over alcohol" with regard to "powerlessness" . . .

The only one that did directly reference the phrase, Grapevine article
April 1994, the writer seems to contradict herself . . . as being
powerless over people places and things, then through prayer, becoming
empowered . . . I guess the whole article there would clarify.  But,
as this quote stands, it's a weak argument at best.  More indicative
of the error of quoting such a thing in an AA meeting as "gospel".  It
has no reference to any AA material at all.  Just that one person's
opinion which upon thoughtful reflection, is obviously confused.

The quote I really latched on to, as one might suspect <GRIN>:

> "Then I launched into a dissertation on
> powerlessness. I really couldn't wait to get to this. I mentioned
> how we
> were powerless over people, places, and things. On and on I went,
> giving
> various examples — this was a full-blown, definitely AA-grounded,
> exposition. I waited for Vince to tell me how wonderfully I'd mastered
> the Step. I was ready to swell with pride. Then, in a soft voice he
> said: "It says 'powerless over alcohol.' "

<BIG GRIN>

Another couple of quotes seems to suggest agreement with some
contributors here that it comes out of therapy or treatment.  I
dispute that claim as unfounded, because I am retired from that field
and it is not a concept that I would suggest to any client.  Far from
the opposite, in fact.

It would appear from the responses here and subsequent review of
referenced materials that even the notion that it's from Al-anon, is
about as factual as saying it's from AA.

But, thanks.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

"The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
Williams)

"Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
permanent."  (M.McLaughlin)

"You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
stations.  I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)




On Jun 24, 2009, at 12:57 AM, t wrote:

>
> here are a few examples of this phrase that I have run across. All but
> the first are from the AA Grapevine
> I'll paste the whole paragraph [not whole article though] so the
> phrase
> can be seen in the context it was used.
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-----------------------
>
> from "As Bill Sees It" [page/reading 251]
> "Are you really placing recovery first, or are you making it
> contingent
> upon other people, places, or circumstances? You may find it ever so
> much better to face the music right where you are now, and, with the
> help of the A.A. program, win through. Before you make a decision,
> weigh
> it in these terms."
>
> LETTER, 1949
>
> ----------------------
> AA Grapevine, August 1971
> from article titled "Now I Want Myself" by F.H., Chicago, Ill.
>
> AA has given me keen insight into my limitations, and it enables me
> each
> day to remove myself from people, places, and things that tend to
> threaten my sobriety. Since being in AA, I have gained more friends
> than
> I could ever have imagined, friends who sincerely care about me and my
> welfare. I have one friend in particular, whom I call my guardian
> angel.
> Recently, I was in an automobile accident that almost cost me the
> use of
> my writing hand, and she encouraged me to write.
>
> ----------------------
> AA Grapevine, June 1978
> from a letter by D. H. from San Francisco, Calif.:
>
> When are we going to learn to be responsible for our own feelings?
> Let's
> grow up and stop blaming "people, places, and things" for our
> feelings.
>
> ----------------------
> AA Grapevine, July 1981
> from an article titled "Steps to Awareness" by T.J., Houston, Tex.
>
> The First Step gave me my first step in identity. I had always looked
> outside myself — for my name, for the answer to all my needs. I looked
> to people, places, and things and, of course, to booze. Ironically,
> the
> alcohol I used to find answers gave me the first step in identity —
> I am
> an alcoholic.
>
> ----------------------
> AA Grapevine, September 1981
> from an article titled "Action Begins at Home" by C.A., Houston, Tex.
>
> The thought of spending hours and hours with me, just me, threw me
> into
> a terrifying, gut-wrenching panic. Alone within my four walls, I
> finally
> had to face the fact that in all those months of staying busy, I had
> taken no real action at all. I had completed tasks, even AA tasks
> like a
> Fourth and Fifth Step and a daily Tenth Step, but I had done them as a
> child does homework to avoid getting in trouble with his teacher at
> school. I finally realized that I had used constant activity, the
> distraction of people, places, and things, to avoid bumping into
> myself.
>
> ----------------------
> Grapevine, February 1983
> from an article titled "Acceptance" by E.B., Dover, Del.
>
> intro states:
> She finally stopped blaming people, places, and things for her
> drinking
>
> and in the article:
> Only this time, I realized I was drinking because I wanted to and not
> because of any other people, places, or things. I could finally see
> the
> truth of what I had been told so many times: We get drunk because we
> take that first drink, not for any other reason. My emotions finally
> caught up with my intellect, and the two merged for a short time.
>
> ----------------------
> Grapevine, July 1984
> from an article titled "Sobriety Is an Inside Job" by L.P.,
> Huntsville, Tex.
>
> After several months in prison, my attitude toward people, places,
> things, and ideas was still very poor a lot of times. I hid this as
> best
> I could. The AA program was getting into a lot of areas of my life —
> what a revelation! Now another action step was required, because I had
> become more conscious of yet another character defect after these few
> months of youthful sobriety.
>
> ----------------------
> Grapevine, March 1988
> from a letter by E. B. of Wentzville, Mo.:
>
> As I read the November issue on sponsorship, I felt the usual
> reactions
> which I feel when I read the Grapevine: I agree with this person, this
> person is way off base, but I guess it works for them, etc. However,
> my
> overall feeling was one of indifference. I didn't have a lot of
> interest
> in an issue on sponsorship because there was no direct connection to
> my
> program. After all, I had gone by the book. Shortly after treatment I
> got a sponsor who helped me through the Steps and helped me keep in
> balance when people, places, and things started to become my higher
> power. I always appreciated him very much and didn't take him for
> granted. We saw each other once a week and I called him once a week.
> On
> the other side of the coin my few attempts at sponsorship were
> disappointing. As you can see, the issue didn't apply to me since my
> little world was all neat and tidy. Then I got a phone call from a
> friend in the Fellowship last Saturday. My sponsor had died suddenly
> of
> a heart attack. I had never in my life had to deal with such a loss.
> The
> immediate feeling of aloneness was hard to bear.
>
> ----------------------
> AA Grapevine, May 1989
> from an article titled "Bingo Card of Life" by Joseph O., Meade, Md.
>
> I was close to being chaptered out of the Army with a bad conduct
> discharge. I had two article fifteens, one court-martial, seventeen
> days
> AWOL, thirty days' stockade time, and barely six months in the Army.
> Never mind the countless jobs I'd lost on the outside and my two
> alcohol-related civilian convictions. Drinking wasn't my problem; it
> was
> people, places and things. I wasn't sick — everyone else was. I wasn't
> ready for the First Step. I couldn't admit my powerlessness over
> alcohol
> or the unmanageability in my life.
>
> ----------------------
> AA Grapevine, April 1994
> from an article title "Time for Transition" by Annemarie M.,
> Raynham, Mass.
>
> I'm in an entirely new professional setting now. It has not been
> dull. I
> don't drink and I go to AA meetings. I'm even more aware of just how
> powerless I am over other people, places, and things. Change has
> challenged me to turn more than ever to my home group, my sponsor, my
> service work in AA, my sponsees, the Steps, Traditions, and
> Concepts. To
> the God of my understanding, asking only for knowledge of his will for
> me . . . and the power to carry that out.
>
> ----------------------
> AA Grapevine, December 1995
> from an article titled "Singleness of Purpose" by Lynn J., Saint
> John, N.B.
>
> When I first came into the program, I didn't understand anything about
> the disease of alcoholism and how it had made my life unmanageable. I
> thought that people, places, and things were the real problems. It
> took
> AA members with good long-term sobriety to help me get the focus
> back on
> me. When newcomers come in talking about outside issues, it's my
> responsibility to keep things on track in the same loving and careful
> way that others used to walk me through my early sobriety.
>
> ----------------------
> Grapevine, January 1997
> from an article titled "A Powerful Assignment" by Ben N., White
> Plains,
> New York
>
> Nervous? Yes, I was. As the phone was ringing, I rehearsed what I was
> going to say. But I was already quite proud of what I knew that I knew
> about the First Step. Then Vince answered. Everything got jumbled up
> but
> he put me at ease and I began to explain the First Step to him. I told
> him about the unmanageability — that my life had become very small;
> everything reduced to shoebox size. There wasn't very much in my life
> and no room for people. Then I launched into a dissertation on
> powerlessness. I really couldn't wait to get to this. I mentioned
> how we
> were powerless over people, places, and things. On and on I went,
> giving
> various examples — this was a full-blown, definitely AA-grounded,
> exposition. I waited for Vince to tell me how wonderfully I'd mastered
> the Step. I was ready to swell with pride. Then, in a soft voice he
> said: "It says 'powerless over alcohol.' "
>
> ------------------------------
> AA Grapevine, April 1997
> from an article titled "From Two-Stepping to Twelve-Stepping" by John
> M., Santa Barbara, California
>
> I learned from Al-Anon and private therapy that I'm powerless not only
> over alcohol, but also people, places, and things.
>
> ------------------------------
> Grapevine, July 1997
> from an article titled "EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE" by
> Niurka R., Houston, Texas
>
> I've been in and out of several juvenile and adult penal
> institutions. I
> always made resolutions to change and never return. At the age of
> eighteen attempted to attend AA meetings in prison to change my life
> around and combat my alcoholism, but there was no sincerity in my
> heart.
> was only doing it for my mother and to please other people; it wasn't
> for myself. When I was released I went back to the old people, places,
> and things that caused me to pay so much. I still viewed the drinking
> life as being fun. I was reincarcerated again at the age of twenty.
> I've
> been here now for sixteen months. This time I've had an opportunity to
> sit and take a personal inventory of my life. I came to the conclusion
> that I want to change and need to change if I am to live. I was never
> more serious about anything in my life. I've started attending AA
> meetings and substance abuse meetings, and reading my Big Book every
> day.
>
> ------------------------------
> AA Grapevine, September 1997
> from an article titled "Reintroduced To Myself" by Jody B., New Bern,
> North Carolina
>
> The seed of AA was there, and on mornings when I hurt physically and
> didn't remember the night before, I'd wonder: should I give AA a fair
> shot? For six months I'd pull a few days together, then celebrate
> with a
> drink. I really felt as though I was going crazy. I was afraid to
> believe in a higher power and I continued downhill, never remembering
> the night before, still going to AA while comparing my way out. I was
> constitutionally incapable of being honest. The law brought me to my
> bottom and I decided to give AA an honest try. At twenty-three months
> sober, I had changed people, places, and things, gotten a sponsor, and
> worked Steps One through Five. I was doing the things suggested but I
> still felt alone and didn't know myself.
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Jon Markle wrote:
>
> I don't want to debate this here.  (I have, obviously a different
> experience <grin>).
>
> I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA.
>
> It's not in the Big Book.  I don't think it's in any of AA's other
> literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete
> authority -- yet. <grin>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Hugs for the trudge
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
>
>
> From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ mac.com>
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things"
> To: "AAHistoryLovers" <AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com>
> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM
>
> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
> things" come from?
>
> Hugs for the trudge.
>
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

The phrase, "powerless over people, places and things" is not in the
ODATT . . . at least I can't find it in my copy.  Can you site the
page for me, if you found such reference . . .

The concept of not having power over another human being has to do
with control issues and detachment skills in Al-anon as applied to
making someone else stop drinking -- which converts to "powerless over
alcohol", but has nothing or little to do with the phrase I'm trying
to trace, "Powerless over people places and things."  That specific
phrase and concept is what I am attempting to trace, for origin and
how it got accepted as "gospel" in AA meetings.

Thanks.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

"The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
Williams)

"Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
permanent."  (M.McLaughlin)

"You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
stations.  I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)




On Jun 22, 2009, at 2:29 PM, James Flynn wrote:

> The phrase can be found in the Al-Anon literature specifically the
> ODATT Daily Meditation Book.  It does not come from the much
> maligned treatment industry!
>
> Sincerely, Jim F.
>
> -

The inquiry comes from the previous message concerning the validity of page
Dr. Paul's quote from page 417.



The answer:



The stories in the second section of the book are not considered as the
clear cut directions.  Please read page 29: "Further on clear cut directions
are given showing how we recovered.  These are followed by forty-two
personal experiences."



The personal experiences are not the clear cut directions.



  Bob S.

www.4dgroups.org



=================================================================



From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bridgetsbuddy
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:39 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: "People places things"








What about this one? "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person,
place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me,
and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or
situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."
("Acceptance was the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417) No?

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers%40yahoogroups.com> , Jon Markle <serenitylodge@...>
wrote:
>
> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
> things" come from?
>
> Hugs for the trudge.
>
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
> "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
> Williams)
>
> "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
> permanent." (M.McLaughlin)
>
> "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
> stations. I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
> when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am looking for a picture of Bill and Ebby lying on the grass. I remember
seeing this and can't seem to remember where. can someone give me a steer?

Just to update some research on this question.

I looked up the suggested references given here so far, for Al-anon
and NA.  I do not find that this concept "powerless over people places
and things" is founded in either of those two 12-step programs
referred to here in the answers given so far.  Certainly not Al-anon,
and certainly not NA.  Those references have to do with something else.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

"The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
Williams)

"Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
permanent."  (M.McLaughlin)

"You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
stations.  I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)




On Jun 23, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Jon Markle wrote:

> I don't want to debate this here.  (I have, obiously a different
> experience <grin>).
>
> I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA.
>
> It's not in the Big Book.  I don't think it's in any of AA's other
> literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete
> authority -- yet. <grin>
>
> Thanks.
>
> Hugs for the trudge
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
> If it appears I was all thumbs when I wrote this, I was!  Sent from
> my iPhone.
>
> On Jun 22, 2009, at 3:20 PM, James Flynn <jdf10487@...> wrote:
>
>> The notion that we are "powerless over people places and things"
>> comes directly from Al-Anon and has nothing to do with avoiding
>> anything. It is all about acceptance of other people's, things or
>> situations as autonomous. A similiar concept promoted by Al-Anon is
>> known as "the three C's."  That is I didn't cause it, I can't
>> control it and I can't cure it.  It is the conclusion that one
>> reaches when one aknowledges their limitations and finally
>> understands that certain things have to be left in God's hands.
>> You could say it is the realization that I am not God and that
>> pretending otherwise is just inviting another lesson in futility.
>> Basically it's about letting GO and letting God, rather than
>> playing God.
>>
>> Jim F.
>>
>> --- On Mon, 6/22/09, johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: johnlawlee@... <johnlawlee@...>
>> Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things"
>> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>> Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 7:20 AM
>>
>>
>>    The cliche "people, places and things" comes from the Basic Text
>> of Narcotics Anonymous, specifically page 15 of the Sixth Edition.
>> It's not found in the AA literature, and it is contradictory to the
>> AA message.  The NA Basic Text converts the
>> three pertinent ideas of the BIg Book to "three disturbing
>> realizations. "  The third "disturbing realization" is , "we can no
>> longer blame people, places and things for our addiction."
>>     The treatment industry has gotten ahold of the NA language and
>> converted it to a claim that "we are [supposedly] powerless over
>> people, places and things" or even worse, that "we should avoid
>> people, places and things."
>>     The  "people places things" cliche is absent from the basic
>> literature of AA; more importantly, the cliche is contradictory to
>> the AA message.  Page 102 of the Big Book assures us, "...any
>> scheme...which proposes to shield the sick man from temptation is
>> doomed...he usually winds up with a bigger explosion... "  The Big
>> Book also indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page
>> 132 of the AA basic text promises, "We have recovered, and been
>> given the power to help others."
>>     Nothing in the basic literature of AA says we're powerless.
>> The FIrst Step doesn't say we're powerless. It's in the past tense,
>> The FIrst Step says that we WERE powerless, that we USED TO BE
>> powerless [before taking all 12 Steps].  The Big Book further
>> indicates that we don't stay powerless over people. Page 132 of the
>> Big Book promises, "we have recovered and been the power to help
>> others."   To claim that "we stay powerless" , or that "we'll
>> always be powerless" is the exact opposite of the AA message.
>> love+service
>> John Lee
>> Pittsburgh-- - On Sun, 6/21/09, Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ mac.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ mac.com>
>> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things"
>> To: "AAHistoryLovers" <AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com>
>> Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM
>>
>> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
>> things" come from?
>>
>> Hugs for the trudge.
>>
>> Jon (Raleigh)
>> 9/9/82

here are a few examples of this phrase that I have run across. All but
the first are from the AA Grapevine
I'll paste the whole paragraph [not whole article though] so the phrase
can be seen in the context it was used.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
-----------------------

from "As Bill Sees It" [page/reading 251]
"Are you really placing recovery first, or are you making it contingent
upon other people, places, or circumstances? You may find it ever so
much better to face the music right where you are now, and, with the
help of the A.A. program, win through. Before you make a decision, weigh
it in these terms."

LETTER, 1949

----------------------
AA Grapevine, August 1971
from article titled "Now I Want Myself" by F.H., Chicago, Ill.

AA has given me keen insight into my limitations, and it enables me each
day to remove myself from people, places, and things that tend to
threaten my sobriety. Since being in AA, I have gained more friends than
I could ever have imagined, friends who sincerely care about me and my
welfare. I have one friend in particular, whom I call my guardian angel.
Recently, I was in an automobile accident that almost cost me the use of
my writing hand, and she encouraged me to write.

----------------------
AA Grapevine, June 1978
from a letter by D. H. from San Francisco, Calif.:

When are we going to learn to be responsible for our own feelings? Let's
grow up and stop blaming "people, places, and things" for our feelings.

----------------------
AA Grapevine, July 1981
from an article titled "Steps to Awareness" by T.J., Houston, Tex.

The First Step gave me my first step in identity. I had always looked
outside myself — for my name, for the answer to all my needs. I looked
to people, places, and things and, of course, to booze. Ironically, the
alcohol I used to find answers gave me the first step in identity — I am
an alcoholic.

----------------------
AA Grapevine, September 1981
from an article titled "Action Begins at Home" by C.A., Houston, Tex.

The thought of spending hours and hours with me, just me, threw me into
a terrifying, gut-wrenching panic. Alone within my four walls, I finally
had to face the fact that in all those months of staying busy, I had
taken no real action at all. I had completed tasks, even AA tasks like a
Fourth and Fifth Step and a daily Tenth Step, but I had done them as a
child does homework to avoid getting in trouble with his teacher at
school. I finally realized that I had used constant activity, the
distraction of people, places, and things, to avoid bumping into myself.

----------------------
Grapevine, February 1983
from an article titled "Acceptance" by E.B., Dover, Del.

intro states:
She finally stopped blaming people, places, and things for her drinking

and in the article:
Only this time, I realized I was drinking because I wanted to and not
because of any other people, places, or things. I could finally see the
truth of what I had been told so many times: We get drunk because we
take that first drink, not for any other reason. My emotions finally
caught up with my intellect, and the two merged for a short time.

----------------------
Grapevine, July 1984
from an article titled "Sobriety Is an Inside Job" by L.P., Huntsville, Tex.

After several months in prison, my attitude toward people, places,
things, and ideas was still very poor a lot of times. I hid this as best
I could. The AA program was getting into a lot of areas of my life —
what a revelation! Now another action step was required, because I had
become more conscious of yet another character defect after these few
months of youthful sobriety.

----------------------
Grapevine, March 1988
from a letter by E. B. of Wentzville, Mo.:

As I read the November issue on sponsorship, I felt the usual reactions
which I feel when I read the Grapevine: I agree with this person, this
person is way off base, but I guess it works for them, etc. However, my
overall feeling was one of indifference. I didn't have a lot of interest
in an issue on sponsorship because there was no direct connection to my
program. After all, I had gone by the book. Shortly after treatment I
got a sponsor who helped me through the Steps and helped me keep in
balance when people, places, and things started to become my higher
power. I always appreciated him very much and didn't take him for
granted. We saw each other once a week and I called him once a week. On
the other side of the coin my few attempts at sponsorship were
disappointing. As you can see, the issue didn't apply to me since my
little world was all neat and tidy. Then I got a phone call from a
friend in the Fellowship last Saturday. My sponsor had died suddenly of
a heart attack. I had never in my life had to deal with such a loss. The
immediate feeling of aloneness was hard to bear.

----------------------
AA Grapevine, May 1989
from an article titled "Bingo Card of Life" by Joseph O., Meade, Md.

I was close to being chaptered out of the Army with a bad conduct
discharge. I had two article fifteens, one court-martial, seventeen days
AWOL, thirty days' stockade time, and barely six months in the Army.
Never mind the countless jobs I'd lost on the outside and my two
alcohol-related civilian convictions. Drinking wasn't my problem; it was
people, places and things. I wasn't sick — everyone else was. I wasn't
ready for the First Step. I couldn't admit my powerlessness over alcohol
or the unmanageability in my life.

----------------------
AA Grapevine, April 1994
from an article title "Time for Transition" by Annemarie M., Raynham, Mass.

I'm in an entirely new professional setting now. It has not been dull. I
don't drink and I go to AA meetings. I'm even more aware of just how
powerless I am over other people, places, and things. Change has
challenged me to turn more than ever to my home group, my sponsor, my
service work in AA, my sponsees, the Steps, Traditions, and Concepts. To
the God of my understanding, asking only for knowledge of his will for
me . . . and the power to carry that out.

----------------------
AA Grapevine, December 1995
from an article titled "Singleness of Purpose" by Lynn J., Saint John, N.B.

When I first came into the program, I didn't understand anything about
the disease of alcoholism and how it had made my life unmanageable. I
thought that people, places, and things were the real problems. It took
AA members with good long-term sobriety to help me get the focus back on
me. When newcomers come in talking about outside issues, it's my
responsibility to keep things on track in the same loving and careful
way that others used to walk me through my early sobriety.

----------------------
Grapevine, January 1997
from an article titled "A Powerful Assignment" by Ben N., White Plains,
New York

Nervous? Yes, I was. As the phone was ringing, I rehearsed what I was
going to say. But I was already quite proud of what I knew that I knew
about the First Step. Then Vince answered. Everything got jumbled up but
he put me at ease and I began to explain the First Step to him. I told
him about the unmanageability — that my life had become very small;
everything reduced to shoebox size. There wasn't very much in my life
and no room for people. Then I launched into a dissertation on
powerlessness. I really couldn't wait to get to this. I mentioned how we
were powerless over people, places, and things. On and on I went, giving
various examples — this was a full-blown, definitely AA-grounded,
exposition. I waited for Vince to tell me how wonderfully I'd mastered
the Step. I was ready to swell with pride. Then, in a soft voice he
said: "It says 'powerless over alcohol.' "

------------------------------
AA Grapevine, April 1997
from an article titled "From Two-Stepping to Twelve-Stepping" by John
M., Santa Barbara, California

I learned from Al-Anon and private therapy that I'm powerless not only
over alcohol, but also people, places, and things.

------------------------------
Grapevine, July 1997
from an article titled "EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE" by
Niurka R., Houston, Texas

I've been in and out of several juvenile and adult penal institutions. I
always made resolutions to change and never return. At the age of
eighteen attempted to attend AA meetings in prison to change my life
around and combat my alcoholism, but there was no sincerity in my heart.
was only doing it for my mother and to please other people; it wasn't
for myself. When I was released I went back to the old people, places,
and things that caused me to pay so much. I still viewed the drinking
life as being fun. I was reincarcerated again at the age of twenty. I've
been here now for sixteen months. This time I've had an opportunity to
sit and take a personal inventory of my life. I came to the conclusion
that I want to change and need to change if I am to live. I was never
more serious about anything in my life. I've started attending AA
meetings and substance abuse meetings, and reading my Big Book every day.

------------------------------
AA Grapevine, September 1997
from an article titled "Reintroduced To Myself" by Jody B., New Bern,
North Carolina

The seed of AA was there, and on mornings when I hurt physically and
didn't remember the night before, I'd wonder: should I give AA a fair
shot? For six months I'd pull a few days together, then celebrate with a
drink. I really felt as though I was going crazy. I was afraid to
believe in a higher power and I continued downhill, never remembering
the night before, still going to AA while comparing my way out. I was
constitutionally incapable of being honest. The law brought me to my
bottom and I decided to give AA an honest try. At twenty-three months
sober, I had changed people, places, and things, gotten a sponsor, and
worked Steps One through Five. I was doing the things suggested but I
still felt alone and didn't know myself.

------------------------------



Jon Markle wrote:

I don't want to debate this here.  (I have, obviously a different
experience <grin>).

I just want to find out where or how it got into the rooms of AA.

It's not in the Big Book.  I don't think it's in any of AA's other
literature or textbooks, either, but I can't say that with complete
authority -- yet. <grin>

Thanks.

Hugs for the trudge
Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82



From: Jon Markle <serenitylodge@ mac.com>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "People places things"
To: "AAHistoryLovers" <AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com>
Date: Sunday, June 21, 2009, 9:45 PM

Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
things" come from?

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

Dear Dave,
I first heard " Wino Joe's " recording at a meeting in Tullahoma Tenn. I
remember laughing at that list but for the life of me I cannot recall it .Itr
was a great lead !

Wes




________________________________
From: doci333 <doci333@...>
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 4:21:37 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Wino Joe?





Hi All,

I heard from the Joe and Charlie Tapes, mention "Wino Joe's" list of being an
alcoholic. Joe mentioned only 2 or three from this humorous list.

Anyone have the list.

AA Love and Hugs,
Dave G.
Illinois







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I had asked the same question to Ray G., archivist at Dr. Bob's House & Ray said
that Bill probably walked to Henrietta's (about three & a half miles).  After
talking to Dr. Bob, Bill was offered a ride back to the Mayflower but said he
would rather walk.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill




----- Original Message -----
From: Gregory Harris
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 1:14 pm
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Mayflower Hotel to Sieberling
Gatehouse.....transportation?
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com

> Hello all
> There is some discussion in our local group...this is along the
> lines of trivia but some of us are curious....does anyone know
> HOW Bill got from the hotel to the Gatehouse (i.e. bus..cab..or
> what?)  Thanks
> Greg H. in Illinois
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Although the word "sponsor" or "sponsorship" does not appear in the
first 164 pages of the Big Book, the whole chapter on "Working with
others" certainly very well defines it.  Perhaps the only reason the
word was not used is that the membership at the time simply did not
use that word/label as something associated with AA.  "Sponsor" had a
completely different meaning back then.  And it would have been
foreign, even conflicting, with the basic concept of our program at
the time.  Today, we know it differently.  And it fits the description
found in the Big Book, "Working with Others".

However, not long after the Big Book was published, another text was
written, which DOES use the word and clearly by then, it was in common
use and application.

It is a part of the AA program that is not only "suggested" but
essentially, a "must" if we want the full benefits of real recovery.
Only those who are isolationists think otherwise.  IMO.

Hugs for the trudge.

Jon (Raleigh)
9/9/82

"The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
Williams)

"Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
permanent."  (M.McLaughlin)

"You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
stations.  I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)




On Jun 23, 2009, at 3:17 AM, John R Reid wrote:

> Please refer to 100
>  ----- Original Message -----
>  From: allan_gengler
>  To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 5:45 AM
>  Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship
>
>
>
>
>
>  Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics
> Anonymous (The Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the
> rule, from the beginning, and not something added later.
>
>  Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped
> a few times. But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland
> Hazard, who sponsored Shep Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored
> Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored Bob who, together, sponsored
> Bill D., etc.
>
>  In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just
> sauntered in off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they
> were sponsored into the group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even
> attend a meeting unless they went through Dr. Bob's Upper Room
> treatment where they "made a surrender," often a key element missing
> from modern AA.
>
>  Also in that book it's described how the group got together and
> pooled their money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to
> get sober on JUST THE BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching
> his description, didn't get off the bus, the group asked the bus
> driver. They were told of a guy under the seat drunk on his but. The
> group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and began to
> sponsor him.
>
>  I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it
> was truly possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did,
> you would need to take the advice in A Vision For You and seek out
> drunks to form a fellowship, thus becoming a sponsor.
>
>  I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional
> and how sober drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for
> someone to ask them. Or even the notion of being told "you must get
> a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily and man decided to be my
> sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision in the
> beginning.
>
>  --Al
>
>  --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Charlie C <route20guy@...>
> wrote:
>>
>>   I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed
>> here at times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's
>> 5th Step with a non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing
>> the 8th Step, it mentions that one may want to refer to "older
>> members" when unsure of how to proceed with amends. In neither
>> place is a sponsor mentioned.
>>
>>   My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA
>> practice of the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is
>> this correct?
>>
>>   Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know
>> it today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the
>> Big Book, of discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the
>> exception, and using one's sponsor the rule? Are there any
>> interviews with old timers or other records documenting this shift?
>> Thanks, I learn so much from this group!
>>
>> Charlie C.
>> IM = route20guy
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Sponsorship like everything else in the AA program is optional (including
misery).  Also not everyone believes that the sponsor/sponsee relationship
should gone on indefinately or that an AA member should be permitted to become
overly dependant on their sponsor.  Below are a couple of interesting passages
taken from AAWS's Questions and Answers on Sponsorship Pamphlet.
 

“To join some organizations, you must have a
sponsor - a person who vouches for you, presents you as being suitable for
membership. This is definitely not the case with A.A. Anyone who has a desire to
stop drinking is welcome to
join us!”
 
How can a sponsor handle an overdependent newcomer?
In the first days of sobriety, a newcomer is sometimes so bewildered and
frightened -
or so mentally fuzzy and physically weak - that he or she needs to be taken to
each meeting
and perhaps helped in making personal decisions. But such utter dependence on
the sponsor,
when carried past the earliest stages of recovery, often becomes damaging to
both parties. It
has already been pointed out that we stay sober through reliance on the A.A.
program, not on
any one member, so the newcomer’s chances in this situation may not be very
good. And the
sponsor may either feel harried by constant, unreasonable demands, or feel
flattered and let
the ego build up dangerously.
How can this dilemma be solved without leaving the newcomer disheartened?
Supposedly,
the sponsor has been seeing that the newcomer meets many other A.A.s; maybe now
is the time to redouble the effort, seeking out those likely to be extra
congenial. If this tactful
gambit fails, some sponsors have tried a direct approach, talking over the
problem frankly
with the newcomer. And if even this has no effect, the sponsor's best solution
may be to say,
firmly and kindly, that he or she will no longer be available any time the
newcomer wishes -
but will keep in touch, with an occasional friendly call.
Now it is up to the newcomer. One course is to find another sponsor. Or the
newcomer may have achieved enough inner strength without realizing it, and can
now go on
to the next stage, substitute other kinds of A.A. friendship for sponsorship,
start working the
program in his or her own way, and take on personal responsibility in everyday
life.
 
When and how does the sponsor let the newcomer go?
Usually the relationship does not really end at any definite point. Without any
discussion, it just changes gradually as the newcomer grows in A.A. A wise
sponsor is
delighted when the new member begins to take initiative in making a widening
circle of
friends, becomes active in the group, and extends the hand of welcome to the
latest
newcomers.
A successful sponsor-newcomer partnership is a special sort of bond, remembered
gratefully on each side, even if the two no longer are close. But it may also
develop into a
lasting friendship, and when it does, both partners have been heard to say, "Now
we sponsor
each other."
 
From the AA Pamphlet Questions and Answers on Sponsorship
 

--- On Mon, 6/22/09, allan_gengler <agengler@...> wrote:


From: allan_gengler <agengler@...>
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: History of sponsorship
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 12:45 PM








Even though SPONSORSHIP is not mentioned in the book Alcoholics Anonymous (The
Big Book) I would suggest that sponsorship was the rule, from the beginning, and
not something added later.

Bill called Ebby his sponsor until death, even though Ebby slipped a few times.
But the chain of sponsorship starts with Rowland Hazard, who sponsored Shep
Cornell and Cebra Graves, who sponsored Ebby, who sponsored Bill, who sponsored
Bob who, together, sponsored Bill D., etc.

In "Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers," it's clear that NO ONE just sauntered in
off the streets and decided to join AA. Instead they were sponsored into the
group FROM a hospital and wouldn't even attend a meeting unless they went
through Dr. Bob's Upper Room treatment where they "made a surrender," often a
key element missing from modern AA.

Also in that book it's described how the group got together and pooled their
money to bus a guy in who "supposedly" was the first to get sober on JUST THE
BOOK. When the bus arrived and a man, matching his description, didn't get off
the bus, the group asked the bus driver. They were told of a guy under the seat
drunk on his but. The group of sober drunks, of course, helped the drunk off and
began to sponsor him.

I always thought that was interesting and have often wondered if it was truly
possible to get sober ON THE BOOK ALONE. Even if you did, you would need to take
the advice in A Vision For You and seek out drunks to form a fellowship, thus
becoming a sponsor.

I think the real question is when did sponsorship become optional and how sober
drunks stopped seeking to sponsor and waited for someone to ask them. Or even
the notion of being told "you must get a sponsor," when did that start. Luckily
and man decided to be my sponsor so I never got to make that misguided decision
in the beginning.

--Al

--- In AAHistoryLovers@ yahoogroups. com, Charlie C <route20guy@ ...> wrote:
>
>    I have been revisiting the "Little Red Book," a title discussed here at
times, and was struck by the way it recommends doing one's 5th Step with a
non-AA, e.g. a clergyman, doctor... In discussing the 8th Step, it mentions that
one may want to refer to "older members" when unsure of how to proceed with
amends. In neither place is a sponsor mentioned.
>  
>    My understanding is that the Little Red Book represents AA practice of
the 1940s, in particular that developed by Dr. Bob. Is this correct?
>  
>    Most of all though, I am curious: when did sponsorship as we know it
today become the norm? When did the tradition, suggested in the Big Book, of
discussing one's 5th Step with an outsider become the exception, and using one's
sponsor the rule? Are there any interviews with old timers or other records
documenting this shift? Thanks, I learn so much from this group!
>
> Charlie C.
> IM = route20guy
>



















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What about this one?  "When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person,
place, thing, or situation -- some fact of my life -- unacceptable to me, and I
can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as
being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment."  ("Acceptance was
the Answer," BB, 4th Ed., p.417)  No?

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Jon Markle <serenitylodge@...> wrote:
>
> Where does the concept of powerlessness over "people, places and
> things" come from?
>
> Hugs for the trudge.
>
> Jon (Raleigh)
> 9/9/82
>
> "The violets in the mountains have broken the rocks." (Tennessee
> Williams)
>
> "Hope is the feeling we have that the feeling we have is not
> permanent."  (M.McLaughlin)
>
> "You know, I occasionally watch those preachers on the Christian TV
> stations.  I always think to myself: How can I believe your theology
> when I can't believe your hair?" (Patricia Clarkson)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

A great recording of Joe can be found at www.xa-speakers.org -- I have the link
as http://xa-speakers.org/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=290 or search "wino" and
he'll pop up ..
(My favorite of Joe's "questions" was "Have you ever had malfunction of the
zipper?" .. Then after the laughter subsides, he says wistfully "They used to
call me 'Rusty' ..")
Y'all's in service
Ted G.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "doci333" <doci333@...> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I heard from the Joe and Charlie Tapes, mention "Wino Joe's" list of being an
alcoholic.  Joe mentioned only 2 or three from this humorous list.
>
> Anyone have the list.
>
> AA Love and Hugs,
> Dave G.
> Illinois
>