Morgan R.'s radio appearance on Gabriel
Heatter's NBC program was in 1939, not in
1945. Previous postings, including one from
NBC licensing, indicate that the actual date
of the program was April 25, 1939, shortly
after the publication of the Big Book. Morgan
was sequestered in the Downtown Athletic Club
to ensure a sober appearance on the 1939 radio
show. I believe Morgan was the guy who ran a
multilith copy of the Big Book past the New
York Catholic Publications Office for its
comments. His crisp appearance at the 1940
Rockefeller dinner at the Union Club is also
noted in the Conference literature.

   John Lee
   Pittsburgh

- - - -

Message 5043 from <chesbayman56@...>
(chesbayman56 at yahoo.com) said:

June 13:
1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for
AA with large audience. He was kept under
surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.

- - - -

From the moderator:

Hmmm. Could this have been an error that
crept into this year's date list? or has
there been reason to change the dating?

The date given up to this point has been
in the April section of the date list, as
in for example Messages 4941 (in 2008),
4206 (in 2007), and so on:

"April 25, 1939 - Morgan R interviewed on
Gabriel Heatter radio show."

See also:

- - - -

Message 4020: We The People Radio program 1939
From: <leeannplatner@...>
(leeannplatner at yahoo.com)

We are searching for an episode of WE THE PEOPLE
radio program from April 1939 featuring Gabrielle
Heatter with guest, Morgan R and his discussion
of AA.

We produced the program, and have a transcript,
but we do not have a copy of the audio recording
and the holdings we donated to the Library of
Congress do not include this episode. We would
love to borrow and/or pay to have a dub made if
any member has an actual copy of this recording.

- - - -

Message 589: People in AA History - pt 4
From: <tcumming@...>
(tcumming at airmail.net)

Morgan R. - Irish Catholic, ex-ad man; came
A.A. early January 1939; had friend on Catholic
Committee Publications New York Archdiocese,
delivered mimeograph copy Big Book to committee,
they approved; spoke popular radio program
'We The People ' April 1939 shortly after
release Greystone institution; attended John
D. Rockefeller 's A.A. dinner Feb 1940; Wilson's
stayed his apartment about 2 months

(A 168-169,174-175,183) (B 286,295) (H 62)
(L 115,127) (N 47,75,90, 93) (P 201,207,208,
209,215,221,232-233)

June 1:
1949 - Anne Smith, Dr. Bob's wife, died.

June 4:
2002- Caroline Knapp, author of "Drinking: A Love Story" died sober
of lung cancer.


June 5:
1940 - Ebby Thatcher took a job at the NY Worlds Fair.

June 6:
1940 - The first AA Group in Richmond, VA, was formed.
1979 - AA gave the two-millionth copy of the Big Book to Joseph
Califano, then Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare.  It was
presented by Lois Wilson, Bill's wife, in New York.

June 7:
1939 - Bill and Lois Wilson had an argument, the first of two times
Bill almost slipped.
1941 - The first AA Group in St. Paul, Minnesota, was formed.

June 8:
1941 - Three AA's started a group in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

June 10:
1935 - The date that is celebrated as Dr. Bob's last drink and the
official founding date of AA.  There is some evidence that the
founders, in trying to reconstruct the history, got the date wrong
and it was actually June 17.

June 11:

1945 - Twenty-five hundred attend AA's 10th Anniversary in Cleveland,
Ohio.
1969 - Dr. Bob's granddaughter, Bonna, daughter of Sue Smith and
Ernie Galbraith (The Seven Month Slip in the First Edition) killed
herself after first killing her six-year-old child.
1971 - Ernie Galbraith died.

June 13:
1945 - Morgan R. gave a radio appearance for AA with large audience.
He was kept under surveillance to make sure he didn't drink.

June 15:
1940 - First AA Group in Baltimore, MD, was formed.

June 16:
1938 - Jim Burwell, "The Vicious Cycle" in Big Book, had his last
drink.


June 17:
1942 - New York AA groups sponsored the first annual NY area
meeting.  Four hundred and twenty-four heard Dr. Silkworth and AA
speakers.

June 18:
1940 - One hundred attended the first meeting in the first AA
clubhouse at 334-1/2 West 24th St., New York City.


June 19:
1942 - Columnist Earl Wilson reported that NYC Police Chief Valentine
sent six policemen to AA and they sobered up.  "There are fewer
suicides in my files," he commented.


June 21:
1944 - The first Issue of the AA Grapevine was published.


June 24:
1938 - Two Rockefeller associates told the press about the Big
Book "Not to bear any author's name but to be by 'Alcoholics
Anonymous.'"

June 25:
1939 - The New York Times reviewer wrote that the Big Book is "more
soundly based psychologically than any other treatment I have ever
come upon."


June 26:
1935 - Bill Dotson. (AA #3) entered Akron's City Hospital for his
last detox and his first day of sobriety.

June 28:
1935 - Dr. Bob and Bill Wilson visited Bill Dotson at Akron's City
Hospital.

June 30:
1941 - Ruth Hock showed Bill Wilson the Serenity Prayer and it was
adopted readily by AA.
2000 - More than 47,000 from 87 countries attended the opening
meeting of the 65th AA Anniversary in Minneapolis, MN.

Other significant events in June for which we have no specific date:

1948 - A subscription to the AA Grapevine was donated to the Beloit,
Wisconsin, Public Library by a local AA member.
1981 - AA in Switzerland held its 25th Anniversary Convention with
Lois Wilson and Nell Wing in attendance.

Mates:

I have been trying to locate in A.A. literature
the part where "cooperation with Al-Anon and
Alateen" is encouraged.

We are having a problem with Tradition 6 in that
some people want to put include ACA (Adult
Children of Alcoholics) in meetings and meeting
schedules.

I understand that Tradition 6 should be
sufficient to cover this matter, but the
exact wording of the "cooperation with other
activities" statement would help.

Thanks for your assistance.

Pat Jehn, RN,C
Legal Nurse Consultant
MEDICAL-LEGAL CONSULTING, LLC
399 S. 12th St.
DeFuniak Springs, Fl 32435

PatJehn@...
(PatJehn at Embarqmail.Com)

850-951-9899

I just received word that Bob Corwin (Sybil
Corwin's husband) died Saturday 24 May 2008
at the age of 86.

According to Matt M. Bob had a stroke last
year and had an assisted-living housekeeper
since then. Bob suffered from a second stroke
on Friday, was taken to the hospital and died
the next day. His son was at his bedside.

Bob C. came into AA in 1948 (Sybil had come
into AA in 1941) and after several relapses,
Bob maintained continuous sobriety for 44 years
until his death.

It has been Matt M's habit to call Bob C.
once a week but this time, Bob's son called
Matt.

Alex H.

I am revising my beginners AA history book page.

http://www.aabibliography.com/beginnersbooks.htm

Suggestions and input are needed.

I certainly need to add Glenn'ss books. Any
other suggestions?

I am trying to keep this to one 8-1/2 by 11
inch page to make it easily printable.

Email me personally at <eztone@...>
(eztone at hotmail dot com)

I would increase this list to two pages, if
the group thought there were that many books
that need to be added.

LD Pierce
editor aabibliography.com

I've seen in documentaries about the Manhattan
Project the slogan "Whom you see here.  What
you see here.  When you leave here let it stay
here" posted in the factories.

I think it did may have originated from there.

Blessings,
Steven L.

- - - -

From the moderator:

The Manhattan Project (1941-1946) was the top
secret World War II project in which the United
States, Canada, and the United Kingdom worked
together to produce the first atomic bomb.
Research took place at over thirty sites in
the United States, Canada, and United Kingdom.

If this was a Manhattan Project slogan, it
seems likely that it was they who invented it,
and our Al-Anon sisters and brothers who then
later on "went nuclear" by adapting the slogan
for their use.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, U.S.)

Dear Alan,

This card is indeed published by Al-Anon Family Groups.

The official anonymity policy can be found in their Service Manual 2006 - 2009
on pages 83 and 84. The service manual is also available on the web site
http://www.al-anon.org/members

I copied the reference below my signature. The part in italics is often read at
open Al-Anon meetings.

Sincerely,

Art Boudreault
Anonymity

The experience of our groups suggests that the principle of anonymity—summed up
in Tradition Twelve as “the spiritual foundation of all our Traditions”—has
three elements: There is anonymity as it applies outside Al-Anon, governing our
contacts with nonmembers and organizations; anonymity within the fellowship; and
anonymity as it contributes to our personal growth.

Anonymity Outside Al-Anon

Tradition Eleven gives a specific guideline: “we need always maintain personal
anonymity at the level of press, radio, TV and films.” This gives potential
members confidence that their identity will not be revealed when they join
Al-Anon. Also, personal anonymity at the public level guards the fellowship from
the Al-Anon/Alateen member who may be tempted to seek public recognition. When
speaking or writing as an Al-Anon/Alateen member at the level of press, radio,
TV or films, use only first names or pseudonyms. In photographs for publication
and in TV appearances, faces should not be recognizable. This may be achieved by
back-tocamera or blurring of features in some way. It is, however, important to
make Al-Anon known through our public information work with professionals who
come into contact with families still suffering from the effects of alcoholism.
Such contacts, of course, make it necessary for the Al-Anon and Alateen members
involved to give their full names. Al-Anon members also give their full names to
interested doctors, spiritual leaders, school or industrial personnel.

Anonymity Within Al-Anon

Members use their full names within the fellowship when they wish. The degree of
anonymity a member chooses (first name, pseudonym, or full name) is not subject
to criticism. Each member has the right to decide. Regardless of our personal
choice, we guard the anonymity of everyone else in the fellowship,
Al-Anon/Alateen and A.A. This means not revealing to anyone—even to relatives,
friends, and other members—whom we see and what we hear at a meeting. Anonymity
goes well beyond mere names. All of us need to feel secure in the knowledge that
nothing seen or heard at a meeting will be revealed. We feel free to express
ourselves among our fellow Al-Anons because we can be sure that what we say will
be held in confidence.

84 Al-Anon/Alateen Members’ Web site: Digest of Al-Anon and Alateen Policies

At open Al-Anon meetings, group anniversaries, conventions, or workshops where
nonmembers are present, Al-Anon and Alateen members are free to decide how much
anonymity they prefer. It is well to open such meetings with a brief explanation
of the Eleventh and Twelfth Traditions. One suggestion is as follows:

There may be some who are not familiar with our Tradition of personal anonymity
at the public level. If so, we respectfully ask that no Al-Anon, Alateen or A.A.
speaker or member be identified by full name or picture in published or
broadcast reports of our meeting. The assurance of anonymity is essential to our
efforts to help other families of alcoholics, and our Tradition of anonymity
reminds us to place Al-Anon and Alateen principles above personalities.

At the service level (Group Representatives, District Representatives, World
Service Conference members, etc.) it is practical to use full names and
addresses to facilitate communication. Letters (including the return address) to
an Al-Anon or Alateen member should never have the name Al-Anon or Alateen on
the envelope. Letters to The Forum should give full names, addresses and phone
numbers. Material that is published will be signed any way the writer wishes:
first name and initial, initials only, “Anonymous”—either with or without
geographical location. Area Newsletter Editors usually follow this procedure.

Anonymity in Our Personal Growth

Each member has the right of decision regarding personal anonymity within the
fellowship. We share as equals, regardless of social, educational or financial
position. Common sense in the use of anonymity provides freedom and the security
each member is assured in Al-Anon. Our spiritual growth has its roots in the
principle of anonymity.

2. Anonymity statement
     Posted by: "Alan Spencer" alan.nm46@... alan.nm46
     Date: Thu May 29, 2008 12:53 pm ((PDT))

Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not too long ago I was at a meeting that had
the statement displayed:

"Whom you see here, what you hear here, when
you leave here, let it stay here. Anonymity
is the spiritual foundation of our program."

At the bottom it said Al-Anon. Is this where
this saying came from and is this what Al-Anon
calls their anonymity statement?

Alan S., New Mexico

- - - -

From the moderator:

Some of the AA meetings in my part of the US
have a reading which is read at the beginning
of meetings, called "The Tools of Recovery"

See http://hindsfoot.org/tools.html

It was put together by two of my sponsor's
sponsors. The seventh tool is that anonymity
statement. Some of the local folks say that
this statement was first read by one of the
people who put together the seven "tools of
recovery" when he was attending an Al-Anon
meeting (or in another version of the story
an O.A. meeting). I have never checked that
out though.

Do any members of our group know more about
this?

We also need to remember that, as Bill W.
himself once pointed out, everything in AA
was originally borrowed from someone else.

The "Think Think Think" signs came from IBM,
the Serenity Prayer from a newspaper obituary,
the Lord's Prayer at the end of meetings
from the Oxford Group, and so on.

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana)

Circuit judge Diane Wood's ruling would be
incontrovertible if AA members were required
to practice the 12 Steps as a religious
discipline; but as we know, the only require-
ment for AA membership is a desire to stop
drinking (or, as in my case, to stay stopped).
There is no creedal imperative in the AA
program.

Complications arise when, for example, patients
in a treatment centre are indeed required to
practice some or all of the 12 Steps as part
of that institution's regime. As Dave reminds
us, this dissonance goes to the heart of our
Traditions.

Bill W. wrote: "As a society we must never
become so vain as to suppose that we are
authors of a new religion. We will humbly
reflect that every one of AA's principles
has been borrowed from ancient sources."
(Alcoholics Anonmymous Comes of Age).

- - - -

From: Baileygc23@...
(Baileygc23 at aol.com)

AA says it is not a religion and the written
word of AA reinforces this thought, but some
of the religious-minded within AA have
presented AA as a God-based thing. What can
the courts do but react to the vast majority
of the members and their need to expound on
their view of AA?

Raymond Campbell also misquoted Thoreau.  The
correct quote from Thoreau is, "The mass of
men lead lives of quiet desperation." The quote
can be found in Walden, published 1854.
   John Lee
   Pittsburgh

- - - -

See Ray C.'s story, "An Artist's Concept,"
First Edition pp. 380-385, where he alters
that line from Thoreau to say:

"'Most men,' wrote Thoreau, 'lead lives of
quiet desperation.' It was the articulation
of this despair that led to my drinking in
the beginning."

I did a Westlaw search in California reported
and unreported cases from 1990-1999 and did
not find the word "Hazelden."

In California criminal sentencing law, AA is
considered a sectarian group.  Attendance at
AA can still be made a condition of probation
but only if the probationer has an option to
attend a non-sectarian self-help group, and
only if the probationer does not object to it.
Cal. Code of Regulations, Title 9, Section 9860.

General Service Board of Alcoholics Anonymous (Great Britain) Limited
publishes much of its own literature. The hard cover Big Book is one
of these items (other versions of the BB are purchased from AAWS and
imported). Also some pamphlets it has borrowed and "anglecized" and
others produced by and for the population they serve. T
  The "circle triangle" is used by the GSB GB (the body who publishes
this literature. The circle triangel was not "banned", AAWS chose to
drop it as a registered trademark for reasons probably detailed
elsewhere on this site and others. The version used on GB literatures
has the words unity, service, recovery around the outside of the
triangle.
I served as a conference delegate for the standadrd three years term
in GB. during that time, I learned a great deal about AA literature
in GB and its conference approval, development, and publication
differ significantly from the process in US/Canada.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "ginnymatthew"
<ginnymatthew@...> wrote:
>
> I just received a fourth edition 2001 Big Book
> printed in Great Britain.  The dust jacket and
> the title page have the AA circle and triangle
> logo that I thought was 'banned' from being
> used back in 1996.  How is it that they are
> able to use this logo?
>
> Also on the front page is a disclaimer which
> states "No part of this publication may be
> reproduced, stored in a retrievable system,
> or transmitted in any form or by any means
> without the prior permission of the publisher."
>
> U.S. texts don't seem to have this disclaimer.
> What is that about?
>
> Gratefully,
> Ginny
>

Your desire to draw a point of significant distinction between the
concepts of religion and religious are explicitly rejected by the 7th
Circuit Court in it's ruling:

In the United States Court of Appeals For the Seventh Circuit

No. 95-1843

JAMES W. KERR,
Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
CATHERINE J. FARREY and LLOYD LIND,
Defendants-Appellees.

Appeal from the United States District Court for the Western District
of Wisconsin. No. 94-C-942--John C. Shabaz, Chief Judge.  ARGUED
JANUARY 12, 1996--DECIDED AUGUST 27, 1996

Before CUMMINGS, FLAUM, and DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judges.

DIANE P. WOOD, Circuit Judge, in her explication of the Circuit ruling:
The district court thought that the NA program escaped the "religious"
label because the twelve steps used phrases like "God, as we
understood Him," and because the warden indicated that the concept of
God could include the non-religious idea of willpower within the
individual. We are unable to agree with this interpretation. A
straightforward reading of the twelve steps shows clearly that the
steps are based on the monotheistic idea of a single God or Supreme
Being. True, that God might be known as Allah to some, or YHWH to
others, or the Holy Trinity to still others, but the twelve steps
consistently refer to "God, as we understood Him." Even if we expanded
the steps to include polytheistic ideals, or animistic philosophies,
they are still fundamentally based on a religious concept of a Higher
Power. Kerr alleged, furthermore, that the meetings were permeated
with explicit religious content. This was therefore not a case (again,
on the present record) where the only religious note was struck by the
insertion of the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, or
other incidental references that the courts have upheld. See, e.g.,
Sherman v. Wheeling School District, 980 F.2d 437 (7th Cir. 1992).
Because that is true, the program runs afoul of the prohibition
against the state's favoring religion in general over non-religion.

The Court of Appeals of New York has recently come to the same
conclusion we reach today in Matter of David Griffin v. Coughlin, No.
73, 1996 WL 317180, 63 USLW 2003 (N.Y. App. Ct. June 11, 1996). In
that case, the Court of Appeals held that the Establishment Clause
does not permit the state to deprive an atheist or agnostic inmate of
eligibility for an expanded family visitation program because of his
refusal to participate in the sole alcohol and drug rehabilitation
program at his state correctional facility--the same AA and NA
programs at issue here. Two federal district courts have also decided
similar cases. In Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 870 F.
Supp. 69 (S.D.N.Y. 1994), the court decided that the Establishment
Clause was violated when the only option available to a convicted
motorist for required rehabilitation was the program run by AA.

I'd have to say this topic and the question which raised it have a
great deal to do with AA history.  The influence of the courts, both
mandating AA attendance and then not doing so, have profoundly
affected AA groups- at least in the U.S.  It brings up issues which go
to the heart of our traditions, aspects like affiliation, the
"lending" (volunteered or not) of our names and requirements for
membership.







--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton
>
> - - - -
>
> From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@...>
> (mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)
>
> It is interesting that this would even be called a
> subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the
> writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers
> or some other AA bashing site.
>
> I would think right off the top of my head that no
> suppreme court would ban all literature from any
> publisher regardless whether or not that publisher
> promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks
> in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall
> any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts
> have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a
> religious activity but again, I do not recall any
> ruling stating that AA was a religion.
>
> I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially
> students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great
> Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"
> on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really
> neat arguments. One will never win with these folks
> (whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate
> or discuss but to frustrate.
>
> Upon review of the web site of the California Courts
> ( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about
> this what I believe is another urban legend. I also
> reviewed the California Department of Education web
> site and again, found nothing relating to this.
>
> Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings
> stating that AA is a religious activity no longer
> mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA
> literature. One such edict can be found at
> http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm
> - The New York State Office of Alcoholism and
> Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin
> #2002-05
>
> It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate
> participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle
> of separation of church and state."
>
> Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -
> URBAN LEGEND
>
> - - - -
>
> From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@...>
> (wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)
>
> I "Googled" that sentence and it returned
> this address....
>
> http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html
>
> That article said:
>
> "Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
> Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large
> treatment agency accounts for two thirds of
> the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.
> Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is
> Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute
> A.A. literature that the California Supreme
> Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature
> removed from the California schools on the
> grounds that Hazelden was promoting a
> religion."
>
> May GOD Bless You!
> Bill
>
> - - - -
>
> Original message from <jax760@...>
> (jax760 at yahoo.com)
>
> Does anybody have any information on this
> subject?  Thanks
>
> ....the California Supreme Court ordered all
> Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
> California schools on the grounds that
> Hazelden was promoting a religion.
>

Friends,

The notice sent out by the group is incorrect-
It is the Annual Steppingstones picnic in Bedford-
It is always the first Saturday in June

This year the date is June 7th
http://www.steppingstones.org/house.html

Gene in Westchester

Even though this is a reply to an oldie here is some
more biographical info about Ray...

Raymond M. Campbell was approximately 44 years old
when he designed the Dust Jackets for the Big Book. He
was born on 12, September 1894 in New Haven
Connecticut. During his lifetime he lived in
Connecticut and Manhattan (NYC). In 1938, Ray lived at
the Gipsy Trail Club in Kent, NY which had a Carmel,
NY mailing address. Circa 1921 he married a woman
named Fanny who was born in NY around 1891. Fanny
predeceased Ray.

Ray died in Orange, Connecticut (New Haven County) on
15, January 1986.

Even though according to the US Census, Ray was listed
as a printer and artist and folks have said he was a
recognized artist, I have yet to find any examples of
his art work other than the Dust Jacket. Nell Wing
told me that Ray had painted a portrait of Jesus that
was supposed to have been a real work of art. Neither
she nor Lois remembered where that portrait ended up.
I am continuing to research to find more information.

I also tracked down a relative of T. E. Borton whose
home one of the early Cleveland meeting was held. Mr.
Borton was not a member of AA but the relative has not
answered any of my attempts at contacting him. T.E.
Borton IV lives in Atlanta, GA

Lots of living relatives I have been trying to locate
appear to be reluctant to answer any attempts at
contact. It would be nice to find out how our founding
members spent the rest of their lives.

Irwin Meyerson, the Jewish Venetian Blind salesman
from Cleveland and sponsored by Clarence Snyder and
helped start AA in Atlanta, GA, West VA and had some
influence in Indiana and orher places was living in
Los Angeles, CA in 1964. His father Meyer died in 1964
in North Hollywood, CA.

I'm trying to do a research piece on whatver happened
to....



--- Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:

> Here is Nancy Olson's short bio of Ray Campbell,
> who designed the Big Book dust jackets we have
> been discussing:
>
> http://www.a-1associates.com/aa/Authors.htm
>
> An Artist's Concept -- Ray Campbell
> New York City
> p. 380 in 1st edition
>
> Ray joined the fellowship in February 1938.
>
> He began his story by quoting Herbert Spencer:
> "There is a principle which is a bar against
> all information, which is proof against all
> arguments and which can not fail to keep a man
> in everlasting ignorance-that principle is
> contempt prior to investigation."
>
> He said that the quotation is descriptive of
> the mental attitudes of many alcoholics when
> the subject of religion, as a cure, is first
> brought to their attention. "It is only when
> a man has tried everything else, when in utter
> desperation and terrific need he turns to
> something bigger than himself, that he gets
> a glimpse of the way out. It is then that
> contempt is replaced by hope, and hope by
> fulfillment."
>
> Ray chose to write of his search for spiritual
> help rather than "a description of the neurotic
> drinking that made the search necessary."
>
> After investigating his alcoholic problem from
> every angle, medicine, psychology, psychiatry,
> and psychoanalysis, he began "flirting" with
> religion as a possible way out. He had been
> approaching God intellectually. That only
> added to his desperation, but a seed had been
> planted.
>
> Finally he met a man, probably Bill Wilson,
> who had for five years "devoted a great deal
> of time and energy to helping alcoholics."
> The man told him little he didn't already know,
> "but what he did have to say was bereft of all
> fancy spiritual phraseology -- it was simple
> Christianity imparted with Divine Power."
>
> The next day he met over twenty men who "had
> achieved a mental rebirth from alcoholism."
>
> He liked them because the were ordinary men
> who were not pious nor "holier than thous."
>
> He notes that these men were but instruments.
> "Of themselves they were nothing."
>
> He must have been an intellectual type. He not
> only quotes Spencer, but Thoreau: "Most men
> lead lives of quiet desperation."
>
> It was Ray, a recognized artist, who was asked
> to design the dust jacket for the 1st edition
> of the Big Book. He submitted various designs
> for consideration including one that was blue
> and in an Art Deco style. The one chosen was
> red, and yellow, with a little black, and a
> little white. The words Alcoholics Anonymous
> were printed across the top in large white
> script. It became known as the circus jacket
> because of its loud circus colors. The unused
> blue jacket is today in the Archives at the
> Stepping Stones Foundation.
>
> His story was not included in the Second
> Edition of the Big Book but the Spencer quote
> was placed in the back of the book in
> Appendix II, "Spiritual Experience."
>
>
>


The most wonderful thing about losing my memory is that now I will always be
able to discover new places, meet new people and make new friends...

From crescentdave, dikilee, and chief_roger

- - - -

From "David" <crescentdave@...>
(crescentdave at yahoo.com)

Here's one piece of the puzzle: per Michael J.
Bohn, M.D., Clinical Associate Professor,
Department of Psychiatry, U.W. Medical School,
Gateway Recovery, Madison, WI reported in 1994:
AA and Hazelden materials religious and banned
from California Youth Authority classrooms.

Note: this is NOT the same as regular public
schools.

cit:
http://dhfs.wisconsin.gov/substabuse/Education/Teleconference/ArchivedMaterials/\
2002presentations/AATALK021202.pdf.

- - - -

From: "Dick" <dikilee@...>
(dikilee at yahoo.com)

There was a 1994 California case: California
State Employees Association vs. The California
Youth Authority, in which the court held that
Hazelden materials could not be used in CYA
classrooms.  I do not believe this was the
California Supreme Court as a year later it
was thrown out by another judge.

- - - -

From: ROGER WHEATLEY <chief_roger@...>
(chief_roger at yahoo.com)

I found this on an atheist website along with
other litigation supporting their view that AA
is a religious organization.

"In 1994, all materials from Hazelden
Publications, a publishing arm of AA, were
ordered out of California Youth Authority
classrooms. Additionally, decrees announcing
the right to refuse Twelve-Step participation
were posted in all living quarters."

http://www.americanatheist.org/spr97/T2/piety.html

- - - -

Original message from <jax760@...>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject?  Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

From Mitchell K. and Bill Middleton

- - - -

From "Mitchell K." <mitchell_k_archivist@...>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

It is interesting that this would even be called a
subject. It sounds like something quoted out of the
writing of Secret Agent Orange from the Orange-Papers
or some other AA bashing site.

I would think right off the top of my head that no
suppreme court would ban all literature from any
publisher regardless whether or not that publisher
promoted religion. Secondly, despite what those folks
in AA Basher land would like to think, I do not recall
any court ruling that AA was a religion. Many courts
have ruled that AA was religious in nature and a
religious activity but again, I do not recall any
ruling stating that AA was a religion.

I don't engage in a debate with AA bashers, especially
students of Secret Agent Orange. Orange has a great
Curriculum called "Propaganda and Debating Techniques"
on how to engage "steppers" in debate with some really
neat arguments. One will never win with these folks
(whatever win means) as their agenda is not to debate
or discuss but to frustrate.

Upon review of the web site of the California Courts
( http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/ ) I found nothing about
this what I believe is another urban legend. I also
reviewed the California Department of Education web
site and again, found nothing relating to this.

Most governmental agencies, bowing to court rulings
stating that AA is a religious activity no longer
mandate attendance at meetings or mandating reading AA
literature. One such edict can be found at
http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/mis/bulletins/lsb2002-05.cfm
- The New York State Office of Alcoholism and
Substance Abuse Services Local Services Bulletin
#2002-05

It goes into detail about "the providers who mandate
participation in A.A., is a violation of the principle
of separation of church and state."

Simply put according to what I looked at on the net -
URBAN LEGEND

- - - -

From: William Middleton <wmiddlet44@...>
(wmiddlet44 at yahoo.com)

I "Googled" that sentence and it returned
this address....

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-spirrel.html

That article said:

"Kurtz, in Not-God: A History of Alcoholics
Anonymous, 1991, page 281, says that one large
treatment agency accounts for two thirds of
the outside sales of A.A.W.S. literature.
Without a doubt, that one treatment agency is
Hazelden. They so aggressively redistribute
A.A. literature that the California Supreme
Court ordered all Hazelden and A.A. literature
removed from the California schools on the
grounds that Hazelden was promoting a
religion."

May GOD Bless You!
Bill

- - - -

Original message from <jax760@...>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject?  Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

I know there were simlar court cases slightly
related to it. There is a movement to have AA
labeled as religion:

http://www.sfgate.com/flat/archive/2007/09/07/chronicle/archive/2007/09/07/BA99S\
1AKQ.html

San Francisco Chronicle

Parolees can't be forced into
Alcoholics Anonymous, court rules

Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer

Friday, September 7, 2007

SAN FRANCISCO - Alcoholics Anonymous, the
renowned 12-step program that directs problem
drinkers to seek help from a higher power,
says it's not a religion and is open to
nonbelievers. But it has enough religious
overtones that a parolee can't be ordered
to attend its meetings as a condition of
staying out of prison, a federal appeals
court ruled today.

In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of
Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional
dividing line between church and state in such
cases is so clear that a parole officer can be
sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go
through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous
or an affiliated program for drug addicts.

Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have
established that "requiring a parolee to attend
religion-based treatment programs violates the
First Amendment," the court said. "While we in
no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics
Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance
in their programs may not be coerced by the
state."

The 12 steps required for participants in both
programs include an acknowledgment that "a power
greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity," and a promise to "turn our will and
our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him." They also call for prayer
and meditation.

Today's 3-0 ruling allows a Honolulu man to go
to trial in a suit on behalf of his late father,
Ricky Inouye, who was paroled from a drug
sentence in November 2000. A Buddhist, he
objected to religiously oriented drug treatment
in prison, sued state officials over the issue,
and told Hawaii parole authorities just before
his release that he would object to any
condition that included a treatment program
with religious content.

When Inouye was arrested for trespassing in
March 2001 and tested positive for drugs, his
parole officer, Mark Nanamori, ordered him to
attend a Salvation Army treatment program that
included participation in Narcotics Anonymous
meetings, the court said.

Inouye showed up but refused to participate,
dropped out after two months, and, for that
and other reasons, was sent back to prison
in November 2001 for violating his parole.

After his release in 2003, he sued Nanamori
and others for violating his constitutional
rights. Inouye died while the suit was pending
and his son took over the case.

A federal judge dismissed the suit, saying
officers are required to pay damages for
violating constitutional rights only when
those rights are already clearly established.

But the appeals court said Nanamori should have
known in 2001 that coerced participation in a
religion-based program was unconstitutional,
because eight state and federal courts had
ruled on the issue by then and all had agreed
that a parolee has a right to be assigned to
a secular treatment program.

E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@...
(begelko at sfchronicle.com)

- - - -

Original message From <jax760@...>
(jax760 at yahoo.com)

Does anybody have any information on this
subject?  Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

A historical footnote to Pasadena AA:  Thanks
to the founding of an AA group around 1940
(this seems to be an unresolved date so far -
does GSO have a record?), a local resident,
Tom Pike, joined in 1946. Three years later,
in 1949, his equally famous wife, Katherine,
already a community leader (but not an
alcoholic), founded the Pasadena affiliate
of the National Council on Alcoholism.
Pasadena was the second Calif NCA affiliate,
after Santa Barbara. Both Pikes became
prominent leaders in NCA nationally.

This is a good example of AA's spillover
effect in many, many communities. Once AA was
established, NCA (NCADD today) then became
a primary mover and shaker in stimulating
communities to undertake the myriad tasks of
reducing the stigma of addiction that AA could
not, e.g. education beyond the AA membership
about addiction, lobbying for adequate medical
care of alcoholics, influencing local, state,
and federal legislation on behalf of alcoholics,
etc.

Marty Mann, the founder of NCA and herself a
very early member of AA (1939, NYC), said her
organization might never have got off the
ground if AA didn't already exist as an
excellent resource and solution for referral.

Shalom - Sally

Rev Sally Brown
Board Certified Clinical Chaplain
United Church of Christ

Coauthor with David R Brown: A Biography of
Mrs. Marty Mann: The First Lady of Alcoholics
Anonymous

1470 Sand Hill Rd, 309
www.sallyanddavidbrown.com
Palo Alto, CA  94304
Phone/Fax:  650/325/5258

- - - -

Note from the moderator:

Tom Pike and Brinkley Smithers personally
lobbied President Nixon, their fellow
Republican, in support of the Hughes Act.
Brink eventually also enlisted the support
of Don Kendall, the CEO of Pepsi, and Nixon
finally signed the bill, which was the most
important piece of successful alcoholism
legislation in U.S. history. This provided
the basis, in many crucial ways, of the
modern alcoholism and drug addiction
treatment center.

See the book by Nancy Olson, who founded
the AAHistoryLovers, "With a Lot of
Help from Our Friends: The Politics of
Alcoholism," for the full story of how a
small number of AA members combined forces
to get that epoch-making piece of legis-
lation passed and implemented by the U.S.
Congress.

http://hindsfoot.org/kNO1.html

Glenn C. (South Bend, Indiana, US)

Unless I am mistaken, didn't Duke P. start AA
in Toledo? I heard him speak at his 56 year
(I think) anniversary in 99 or 2000 near
Jacksonville Florida.

He spoke a little about Toledo but that was
all. He didn't mention California.

We are talking about the Duke P. from "Dr Bob
and the Good Oldtimers," correct?

- - - -

Message #5022 from
"Doris Ringbloom" <dringbloom@...>
(dringbloom at netzero.net)

Re: The dispute over who
founded AA in Los Angeles

Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club.  When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

From: "John Blair" <jblair@...>
(jblair at wmis.net)

Jung & Alcoholics Anonymous:
Nautis Project on UTube

See http://www.nautis.com/2008/05/22/jung-alcoholics-anonymous/

Or go directly to YouTube and see the original
video directly. It was posted by: amourxxx112,
and is entitled "Jung, Alcoholics Anonymous,
And Drug Seeking Behaviour"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceoB-tE5yWI

Does anybody have any information on this
subject?

Thanks

....the California Supreme Court ordered all
Hazelden and A.A. literature removed from the
California schools on the grounds that
Hazelden was promoting a religion.

Regarding Pasadena, I had always heard it was
Duke P that started in AA in Pasadena in 1940
at the South Pasadena Women's club.  When
people talk of AA in Los Angeles, it's not
clear whether they mean L.A. the city proper,
or Los Angeles county.

Doris R.

Message #5003 from <jlobdell54@...>
(jlobdell54 at hotmail.com) noted that

"the chief editor for the second edition was
Edward Hale B."

It went on to say that other editors included
"Tom (whether P. – of the 12&12 - or Y. - of
the Grapevine - I don't know)."
______________________________

In a further message (18 May 2008) to
mdingle76@... (mdingle76 at yahoo.com)

Jared Lobdell added the following remark:

"Thanks very much.  My guess had been it was
Tom P (rather than Tom Y) but I wasn't sure.

I'd be interested to know which was the story
Tom included that some AAs didn't like (or
whose author they didn't like)."

From: "Debi Ubernosky" <dkuber1990@...>
(dkuber1990 at verizon.net)

A Google search of "Prayers of the Big Book"
returned this:

http://www.ppgaadallas.org/ppgaa6%20Articles/Big%20Book%20Prayers.doc

which is what I've seen before.

Alternately, go to
http://www.ppgaadallas.org/aa_articles.htm
and scroll down to "Prayers of the Big Book"
and click to download the MS Word doc.

Debi

- - - -

From: Bill Lash <barefootbill@...>
(barefootbill at optonline.net)

Please go to:

http://www.justloveaudio.com
click on "free resources"
then click on "12 Steps"
then click on "Step 10 & 11"
then click on "Step 11 Prayers in the Big Book"

Happy hunting!

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill

- - - -

From: "Donna Bridges"
<donnabridges1018@...>
(donnabridges1018 at gmail.com)

Start at page i, read through page 164 and note
as you find them...I'm sorry, I'm channeling my
sponsor

hugs to all,

db

- - - -

From: Jocelyn Geboy
<jocelyngeboy@...>
(jocelyngeboy at sbcglobal.net)

i'm curious what you find out ... i find these
places where prayer is *explicitly* mentioned,
but i was going through the book pretty fast ...

pp. 59, 63, 67, 68, 69, 76, 83, 84, 85, 86, 86,
87, and 87

    jocelyn

- - - -

Original Message No. 5015
From Hal <hallaws@...>
(hallaws at yahoo.com)

>   I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
> been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
> anyone help point me in the right direction?
>
> THANKS!

Hi Folks,

   This is Mel B. from Toledo offering an
opinion about the start of AA in Los Angeles.
I interviewed Kaye Miller in Sarasota and her
former husband, Ty Miller, in Cleveland, both
around 1980.  Ty, unfortunately, was so far
gone with Alzheimer's that he couldn't come
up with any accurate memories.

    In October, 1948, I heard a Glendale man
named Barney Haller speak in Santa Barbara.
He said that a group of them were meeting at
the request of the courts in 1939, but their
meeting wasn't AA at the time.  Then a woman
wearing a fur coat and carrying a Big Book
popped into one of their meetings and told
how the program had helped her ex-husband.
I believe this was Kaye Miller, and she had
carried the book from the East on a trip to
the West.  Barney apparently claimed this as
the start of AA in LA.

    I don't know if this can be verified or
not.  But I toss it into the hopper as another
opinion.  I did see Barney once again and as
late as 1959, when he was still an active
member of the Glendale group.

    However AA got to California, it really
took off when it did.  Ohio led all the states
in AA membership until 1948, when California
took the lead.  We can assume California has
had the lead ever since.  My theory is that
California was already full of people who had
taken geographical cures by moving west.  Once
they got to California, they couldn't go any
farther so they had no choice but to sober up!

Mel


Mel Barger < melb@... >
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

If you get the cassette tape of a program in
1975, hosted by Sybil, where Mort J. and some
of the old-timers who founded AA in Los Angeles
spoke, it will provide you with a lot of
information about how AA started in 1939 in
Los Angeles, died out, and was revived in 1940.

Hello Group,

   I don’t know if I can answer the question
how to determine when AA officially comes to
a city, but I might be able to shed some light
on early AA  in Southern California. How and
when AA came to Los Angeles is not as heated
a topic today as it used to be.  It is my
understanding this topic actually divided some
of the early members here.  According to
Kaye Miller the first AA meeting was held in
her home December 19, 1939. She was a
nonalcoholic who offered her home for that
meeting.

   In a letter to Bill W., dated February 8
1947, she wrote about her recollection of
early AA in LA. In this letter she states
that her meeting moved to Glendale after a
couple weeks and rotated back and forth.
She also stated Mort J., attended her meeting
and didn’t come to LA until April 1940. In a
February 1952 Grapevine article it also cast
a shadow on the starting date for Mort’s
Cecil Hotel meeting and goes along the same
lines of Kaye’s recollections. ( Don't have a
copy of that article handy)

   I do not have the whole story, but what I
have pieced together so far as to who founded
AA in Los Angeles came to a head in March 1951.
Bill came out to the West Coast to help members
elect a delegate to the first General Service
Conference. During the Saturday night meeting
the story of how AA got started in LA was
told and apparently made it look like Mort
was the sole founder of AA in Los Angeles.
The story did not settle well with some of
the early AAs and this started a heated letter
writing campaign to set the record straight.
Letters were sent to members, groups and central
offices with a copy of Kaye’s 1947 letter trying
to show what they believed to be an accurate
account of how AA got started in LA, but it
didn’t do much good.

   The little blue booklet "How A. A. Came to
Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us now)" was
printed in the early 1980’s by the Southern
California Archives Committee.  When it first
came out there were jokes that they had to wait
until some long timers died before they dared
published their version. From what I know now
I am not surprised if there was some truth in
those jokes.

   Even AA Comes of Age (page 91) has a version
similar to the blue booklet.  Kaye Miller had
gotten an advanced cope of AA Comes of Age and
was very irritated with Bill’s version of
events.  While doing research a couple years
age at the GSO Archives in New York I saw at
least 2 letters from  Kaye to Bill pleading
with him to revise his version before it was
published. He did make a couple of changes but
nothing like Kaye  wanted.   In one of Kaye’s
letters she even hinted some of the blame
falls with Mort for not setting the record
straight back in 1951 when he had a chance.

   The 1947 letter might generate more questions
than answers, but I feel it shows Kaye's
meeting was going strong when Mort started
his meeting despite what the booklet says.
I plan on doing some research in the LA Central
Office Archives in June on other topics but
maybe I can find out some additional informa-
tion on this subject at that time.

   I have included the redacted text of the 1947
letter for you to enjoy.

   Hope this helps

   Charles from California

******************************************

February 8, 1947

   To: Messrs: Bill W., Luis A., Barney H.,
Clarence O’B., Ham B., Fred H., Frank S.,
Pete C., Johnny Howe, Hal S., Dee G., Mort J.,
Cliff W., “Doc” H., Al M., Editor, The Eye
Opener

   This is just one of those rambling "remem-
bering when" things. If most of you think I'm
off my rocker for writing this, that's O.K.,
because where else but in A.A. could I do odd
things without fear of finger pointing? It's
a "first among you cast the first stone" deal,
isn't it?

   Third time's the charm. I first heard about
A.A. though Andy in 1937 -- remember, Bill?
It wasn’t AA then -- The Book hadn't been
published yet. But I was sure Ty wouldn't go
for it. Smart guy I was -- I didn't even tell
him, just because God was involved. Then we
telephoned you in 1938, Bill -- but Ty wasn't
"ready". Then in April 1939 came to us in
West Los Angeles a mimeographed copy of the
Book. Did you keep that hysterical and
(I fear) dramatic telegram I sent - and the
follow-up? I shall never forget the utter
despair that filled me at your reply: "There
is a group in Akron, Ohio". Ohio! where Ty was
facing commitment for life if I returned him
and left him. Well- that ended right--with Ty
in A.A. But I remember that though I couldn't
believe you were alcoholics--you and Bob and
Hank and Marty, I still said that when I
returned to L.A. that I'd be glad to tell
anyone who was as desperate as I had been
that I'd seen 100 of you who said you'd been
alcoholics and that I knew you were decent
members of society now. But I got on an A.A.
jag  on the boat coming back to L.A. Remember
Pat C. and how he got sober  on the advance
sheets of the Book--his story "Lone Endeavor"
was in the first edition. I looked him up as
you asked me to Bill. I know he slipped and
went Fast--but at long last he is again trying
A.A. He may make it this time. You sent me
contacts, Bill, but there wasn't enough of
them, so I asked Alma Whitaker of the Times
to help--and she did.

   From June 1939 to late November and nothing
definite accomplished--then our great and
wonderful break! On December 1st, 1939 was
sent to Johnny Howe, who was then Psychopathic
Probation Officer of A.A. county. He devoured
the Book and turned over to help A.A. all the
vast resources of L.A. County He and that
wonderful Mrs. Dodge! Then almost the same
day came the letter from Ruth Hock, New York
office's secretary, telling me that Lee T. was
coming to L.A. Here was opportunity -- a real
live member of A.A. coming here! We chose
December 19th as the date and I wrote to
everyone who'd contacted me, and on that date
in my little house on Benecia in West Los
Angeles the following met: Lee and Chuck T.,
Barney and Ethel H., Chauncey and Edna C.,
Dwight S.  and his sister, Joey and Mrs. S.,
three non-alcoholic women, Johnny Howe and me!
Do you still have that telegram I sent in such
triumph: "Los Angeles held its first meeting
tonight. Fifteen present." Two meetings at my
house, then we moved to Barney H.s in Glendale,
then back to my house on Gower in Hollywood in
February, 1940. We alternated between Barney
and Ethel's house and mine. By then Hal and
Estelle S. had joined us (January 18, 1940).
What a terrific thing you did in starting the
San Diego group in the jail, Hal, and in
starting the groups in Lincoln Heights.

   From December 19, 1939 to the present time,
Barney has never let a week go by without at
least one meeting attended. Clarence Mc.
joined us in early February or late January,
1940, and though he was a bar-tender, never
so much as sniffed at a drink from that time
on. All unbeknownst to us, another grand
member had been born. Mort J. got sober in
Palm Springs between Christmas and New Years
of 1939. It was in early April, 1940 you
telephoned me, Mort, wasn't it? You said
you had tried to start a group in Denver and
hadn't had too much success and had decided to
come back to L.A. and had gotten my name and
address from Bill. I treasured for years the
florist card on which you said: "For you
graciousness, you friendship and unfailing
hospitality", and the postscript you wrote on
one of those letters I sent weekly and some-
times daily to Bill reporting your progress:
"What this country needs is not a good five
cent cigar, but more Kayes." Is that still on
file, Bill? I blessed my secretarial training
for those carbon copies I kept, so I could
trace our progress. In February Lee started the
group that became the Pasadena Home Group. One
very illustrious early member of that group was
"Doc" H. – he led the downtown beginners group
for years. Then she went to San Francisco. Now
I hear she's in Florida. Los Angeles will always
be grateful to Lee for her untiring efforts for
us here. It was she who got the City Mother of
the Examiner to give us a break, and it was she
who got Ted Le Berthon's  publicity for us.
Bill B. came to us in about March of 1940 and
what a God-send he was. Sober - a member of the
Chicago Group--wonderfully steady. How he
helped us in those trying early days. Then he,
too, went to San Francisco. Frank C. joined us
while we were meeting in the house we'd rented
as a clubhouse on Crescent Heights in 1940
(either March of April). What a relief it was
to be able to be sure the group was in your
capable hands, Mort, when I went back to
Honolulu in May of 1940, and what a splendid
job you did in building up the group and
laying the foundation for all the many groups
here in the Los Angeles area. L.A. will never
forget Frank R., and the wonderful work he and
you did working together. I don't know exactly
when Frank came in, but it was after May 5, 1940.

   Now that I am again faced with leaving
Southern California A.A., I desperately want
to straighten up any misunderstanding. Joy S.
is the oldest member in point of sobriety in
A.A., but he hasn’t been to a meeting since
April or May of 1940. Barney H. was at the
first meeting, too, but he had a little
trouble at first. Hal S. is the oldest member
who stayed sober and came to meetings starting
January 18, 1940. Mort Joseph was sober three
weeks before Hal, but didn't come to a meeting
in L.A. until about April (1940) (Bill's office
would have the exact date). That original gang
was the foundation of the group now known as
the "Mother Group". They outgrew our homes and
rented space at the Cecil Hotel, from there
they progressed--when I was here in March of
1941 they met at the Elk's Temple.

   A.A. in Southern California is so pure and
unadulterated, don't spoil it EVER. If there
MUST be any glory attached to A.A., let it
rest equally on Barney, Hal and Mort, and on
all those people who tried so valiantly in
those earl days-- and Bill P., Wally K.,
Owen F. --A.A. is too big for petty squabbles.
The truth is bound to come out. What does it
matter who was first? We've pioneered so many
things here in L.A.-all men and all women
groups, colored groups and non-alcoholic
groups. If they exist in the East, I couldn't
find them in Chicago or Washington, D.C.

   I shall always remember Bill Wilson's words
to me: "Though I am proud to have been an early
member of Alcoholics Anonymous, I'd still sell
my title as `Founder' for $1.98." That's true
humility, and if it's good enough for Bill,
it's good enough for me.

   /s/ Kay Miller
   `Scuse the lousy typing

******************************************

Shakey1aa@... wrote in Message 5010, "What
determines the date AA is founded in a city?"

Los Angeles says their 1st meeting was
December 19, 1939. In the booklet "How A. A.
Came to Los Angeles (Nothing can stop us
now)",it says, "Mort J came to Los Angeles.
He telephoned A. A. in New York and Ruth
Hock gave him Kaye Miller's telephone
number and address where she lived and had
meetings. He went over and asked "Where's
the meeting?" "There are no meetings any
more." Kaye said, "I'm disgusted. I'm going
to Hawaii or Europe." "Where are all the
members of A. A," he asked. "They are all
drunk," she said bitterly.

Mort J got in touch with Dr. Ethyl Leonard.
She worked with alcoholics. She happened to be
the house physician for the Cecil Hotel on
Main street. Through the good offices of Dr.
Leonard, Mort J rented a large room on the
mezzanine for $5.00. This was the first
public meeting of A. A. It was on a Friday at
8 PM, in March of 1940,"and meetings in LA
have continued uninterrupted since that date.

The first printing of the Big Book was printed
by Cornwall Press in 1939. Some NYC filmmakers
are seeking memorabilia about this press for
a film they are making on the history of A.A.
______________________________

I came across the following story:

"NYC filmmakers seek memorabilia on
Cornwall Press era for A.A. film"

By Michael Randall

Times Herald-Record

May 12, 2008

CORNWALL - Check your attic, your basement
and your storage space. You might be able to
help make a movie.

Some New York City-based documentary film-
makers are working on a movie that will tell
the story of Alcoholics Anonymous.

The story has a local angle: The first edition
of "Alcoholics Anonymous," the fellowship
group's basic textbook (also commonly known
as "The Big Book") was printed by the Cornwall
Press in 1939.

But the business is long gone, and director
Kevin Hanlon and co-producer Dahlia Kozlowsky
say they've run into dead ends trying to
locate films, photographs or any other kind
of visual memorabilia of the Cornwall Press,
particularly from the '30s or '40s that would
evoke the era when the book was published.

So they're appealing to the public for help.
They figure somebody who used to work at the
Cornwall Press, or perhaps their sons and
daughters, might have some old movies or
photos from that era stored away somewhere.

A.A. grew out of a meeting in Akron, Ohio,
between a New York stockbroker, Bill W., and
an Akron surgeon, Dr. Bob S.

The beginnings of A.A. were detailed in a
1989 TV movie, "My Name is Bill W.," starring
James Woods and James Garner, but this will
be the first feature-length documentary on
the subject, Hanlon said.

"I was shocked nobody ever made a documentary
(about this) before," he said.

Hanlon said he was inspired to do the film
because he's known a number of alcoholics who
got sober through A.A. and its 12-step program.

The filmmakers haven't shot any local footage
yet, but they say that could happen later.
They don't know when it will be released;
they're still sorting through what Kozlowsky
describes as enough material "to make a 10-week
series on PBS, but that's probably not" where
it will end up playing.

mrandall@...

Anyone with film, photographs or other
memorabilia of the Cornwall Press in the
1930s/1940s can call Kozlowsky at 212/229/1358
or e-mail her at

Dkozlowsky@...
(Dkozlowsky at gmail.com)

I am on the hunt for a list of what I have
been told are 26 prayers in the BIG BOOK. Can
anyone help point me in the right direction?

THANKS!