In the Toronto Area, we traditionally leave a
donation basket by the coffee pot at hospital
meetings and detox center meetings and do not
pass it around. As a result, most of the time
there is never enough collected to pay for the
coffee and/or literature and these meetings do
not have the tools to help the suffering
residents who ask for books or literature.

I started passing a donation basket and was
soon able to help not only the one meeting
but many others in the area.

I was ordered to stop by our DISTRICT because
this is against the Traditions and the Principles
of Service as set down by New York.

Is this accurate historically?

Murray E.

The pages of the original manuscript that Sotheby's
displayed on their website had a number of interesting
notations in the margins.  One note, or rather a set
of two notes, interests me in particular.

Over the title of Chapter Five, someone wrote in (in a
cursive hand): "Should be studied from the mold
angle."

This comment doesn't appear to be directed at any
particular passage, but is rather intended as a
general comment on the introduction to the Steps.

On the page that describes Step Eleven, someone wrote
in printed capital letters: "POURING THE MOLD."  This
comment is in the margins next to the paragraph
describing the morning meditation.

The comments appear to be in different hands, but
allude to the same metaphor.  Some person or persons
thought of this program in terms of this metaphor.

A mold is a container that gives shape to a hot liquid
that solidifies when it cools.  We have molds for
plastics, metals, even jello.

I get that part of the metaphor, and I can speculate
as to how it might apply to the program, but I wonder
if anyone out there might have some historical or
anecdotal knowledge about this one.

Where does "the mold angle" come from?  How did the
folks in '39 talk about it as a way of thinking about
the program?

These comments were not adopted into the text of our
Big Book, but they seem to be a way of thinking that
was important enough to get a couple mentions in the
notes.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Thanks,
James

I would love to hear anyone's experience with
AA membership and time in the program being
mentioned in the individual's obituary.

These are the first twelve members of AA:

Bill Wilson
Dr. Bob Smith
Bill Dotson
Eddie Reilly
Dr. McK.
Bill Dotson
Ernie Galbraith
Hank Parkhurst
Phil Smith
Wes Wymans
Fitz Mayo
Freddie B. NY
Brooke B. NY
Some of these were failures.

Can someone tell me; Who were the failures ?

Thanks
Aloke D
in India

Fr. Ed Dowling.



   -----Original Message-----
   From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of lmarcia46
   Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 6:52 PM
   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] 12 and 12 quote


   I am trying to find out the clergyman who made the quote:
   "This is the Step that separates the men from the boys." found on page
   63 of the 12 and 12. Thanks for your help.






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am trying to find out the clergyman who made the quote:
"This is the Step that separates the men from the boys." found on page
63 of the 12 and 12.  Thanks for your help.

To:  Tom White
    I didn't know that a group once accused you of misusing its funds.  I often
mention in my talks that I was in three groups where the treasurer ran off with
the money.
    Then I add this comment:  "But they always welcomed me back!"
     All the best to you, Tom.
     Mel Barger

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@...

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Tom White
   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 10:15 PM
   Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] AA at it's best.


   Dear Byron:

   It sounds like Bill to me. I did not hear him make that remark, but
   he did tell me once, when I complained to him at NYC HQ that a new
   group I had just joined in upstate New York had accused me of wanting
   to steal their treasury (they didn't like some proposal I made for
   disposing of excess funds in it), that I should start a new group and
   forget about the accusation of wanting to raid their funds. "That's
   how AA grew," he said. Tom W. Odessa, TX

   On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:35 AM, Byron Bateman wrote:

   > I have a question I'd like to post.
   >
   > Somewhere in the past I seem to remember reading about a question
   > that was posed to Bill. It concerned him being asked about all the
   > arguments/contention that could surround AA business meetings, or
   > assemblies. He is supposed to have answered with; "That's A.A. at
   > it's best."
   >
   > Does anyone know the validity of this statement, or if so, where I
   > may find it?
   >
   > Byron Bateman
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >
   >
   >

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I would like to thank Bill for sharing the below with us.

Fiona

Given the current excitement surrounding the sale of the "Master Copy" of
the Original Manuscript, there was a request here for more information on
Jim Burwell’s copy of the Original Manuscript and I will try to supply as
much detail about it below as possible.

My Lady Sara and I are the current owners of the Burwell copy of the
"Original Manuscript" – one of the multilith copies of the proposed text of
the Big Book that were circulated in late 1938 and early 1939 for review and
comments.

A standard bibliographical description of the book would read as follows:

Alcoholics Anonymous, Works Publishing Co., 17 William St., Newark, N.J.
[dated by hand: "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938"]. Original front board cover + TP +
1 leaf = Index + 1 leaf = Index -- (2) + 1 leaf = Foreword + 1–4 = The
Doctor’s Opinion + 1–76 + 1 leaf = The Alcoholic Foundation + 1–79 =
Personal Stories. [note: with p. 64 printed upside down] + original rear
board cover, 8½ " x 11", First Mulitlith Edition ("The Original Manuscript
Edition").


The book has been rebound twice. Once at some point in the past, Jim Burwell
had the book rebound with a uniform black cloth binding that had the title
"Alcoholics / Anonymous // Book No. 2. / of the / First Hundred Mimeographed
/ Copies" on the front cover in gilt lettering. By 1993, this second binding
was in need of replacement so an identical looking black cloth binding (with
exactly the same front cover title information) was created by Ron M. The
first black cloth binding has been separately preserved along with the
original endpapers from that binding.


NOTE: The phrase "First Hundred Mimeographed Copies" is problematic both in
the number and the use of the word ‘mimeo,’ but it seems clear that Jim
Burwell selected and approved the wording of this title.


PROVENANCE: Jim’s copy was lost to him at some point (a fact noted in at
least one of his recorded talks), but it was returned to him at some later
date. When Jim died in 1974, his wife Rosa gifted this copy to Jim’s nephew,
who was also named Jim. The book comes with the accompanying note from Rosa
to Jim’s nephew:


Dear Jim:


This was Jim’s original "book". In "AA Comes of Age" Bill [Wilson] tells how
they had no money to get the plates made for the hard cover book, so, if you
bought and paid for this mimeo edition, you were promised (the promise was
kept) a free copy of the Big Book when it was printed!


Incidently in 1954 when the 2nd Edition was printed it was discovered that
while the mimeo was copy-written (copy righted!) the Big Book was not –
until 1954. Good AA thinking to be sure.


Jimmy valued this more than anything he had of AA material and wanted you to
have it eventually. The names of the original people are all in there and I
have included the "Grapevine" article and the letter from New York which was
read at the Memorial Service we had for Jimmy. The phrase "God as you
understand him" was what Jimmy fought for so hard, and it has changed the
lives of thousands of people, including myself, who could not accept any
dogma when they arrived in AA.


I want to thank you and also Alice for your kindness and affection when you
came out here.


Lovingly


Rosa


When this nephew died in 1991, the book became his wife’s property. The next
year, she gifted it to Jim’s sister Sally who later needed to offer the book
for sale at Pacific Book Auctions – where my wife and I bought it in
September of 2001.


The unique features of this copy include:


INSIDE FRONT COVER:

Jim’s handwritten name and New Jersey address (crossed out)

beneath which is are two of his later San Diego addresses (crossed out)

and below this (but covered up with white-out), in another hand, is the name
and address of Clarence Snyder in Florida (it seems likely from this and
other internal evidence – see below – that at some point the ‘lost’ copy
ended up with Clarence before making its way back to Jim)


TITLE PAGE:

With the title "Alcoholics / Anonymous" (NOTE: not "Alcoholic’s" as in some
other copies)

Under which Jim has written in black ink: "#2 Copy / Dec. 8, 1938"

VERSO OF INDEX PAGE:

This originally blank page is filled with a wealth of historically important
information (written in blue ink by Jim) including:

"Those Dry + Active Since AA Book 4/1/39"

beneath this header are two columns with subheads: "N.Y. Group" and "Akron"
listing the full names of five NY AA’s in the order of their sobriety (with
dates) along with six full names and dates from Akron. Death dates are also
included for those who died before 1956 in one style of handwriting
(indicating that this page might have been written out at that time) along
with other death dates added later – including Jim’s.

Below this is another major header: "Others who contributed to writing the
book. / Some have died, + some have now recovered."

Again, this list is broken down into two columns with subheads for "N.Y.
Group" and "Akron Group." There are twenty full names listed alphabetically
in the N.Y. Group column – with some marked "(D)" for ‘dead’ in both ink and
pencil. The Akron Group column lists seventeen names listed alphabetically –
again with "(D)" noted. Below this are four new names, which are not in
alphabetic sequence, that have been added in another hand – which I would
suspect to be Clarence Snyder’s, since his name appears among these. (NOTE:
three of these four additions are for names that already appear in the
‘Sober Akron Six’ column at the top of the page – bringing the real count
for this Akron column up to eighteen.)

NOTE: I have always understood the above information to say that, to the
best of Jim’s recollection (with one new name added by Clarence?) that, by
late 1938, there were 48 men and 1 woman who were "active" in AA and who
"contributed" to the writing of the Big Book. Of these, 11 stayed
continuously sober while the other 38 drank again at least once more.

Below this is a final major header: "Non Alcoholics Who Were So Helpful"
listing seven full names – Dorothy Snyder appearing in a different hand at
the end. NOTE: Dr. Howard is listed here as being from "(N.J. State Hosp)"

INDEX – (2) PAGE:

All of the "Personal Stories" on this page have been identified in Jim’s
handwritten notations with the full names of the writers – except for "Ace
Full – Seven – Eleven" which is left blank.

The story "My Wife and I" is here attributed to Marie Bray (wife of Walter
Bray) and has the additional interesting notation: "To Wives" followed by an
arrow pointing to her name. (I thought Bill wrote that chapter by himself!)

Below this is a subheader "Added in Book" and below that the names of eight
other Personal Stories along with the writers full names.

There are seven large ‘X’ marks to the left of seven of these Personal
Stories. (I had thought that these checks might apply to those who stayed
continuously but only five of the seven qualify on that account.)

OTHER NOTATIONS:

The "Foreword" page has a number of words underlined in pencil indicating
changes to text as it was finally printed and a large parenthesis around the
final statement about this being a "multilith" copy.

Similarly the first three pages of Chapter Five have underlinings indicating
where changes were made to the text along with three small marginalia
entries.

There are no other markings in the book.

Old Bill


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The location used by the Alcoholic Squadron was Sheridan Sq, Christopher St., in
the West Village.

jlobdell54 <jlobdell54@...> wrote:          There's been a discussion of
the location of Stewart's Cafeteria where
some of the Alcoholic Squad (and others) used to meet. I know there
was a Stewart's at Christopher Street, a Stewart's at 7th and 23rd, a
Stewart's at Columbus Circle, and obviously there were others. I
think 7th and 23rd was where Kitty R worked (a long-time North Jersey
member who died fifty-plus years sober a few years ago). I would
guess the Museum of NY City might have a record of all the Stewart's
locations, but I'm not in a position to look them up. Perhaps someone
in the city might be able to find the addresses at least for those
south of Central Park.






---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Do you have an example of such a quote?

Scores of phrases might have entered into usage within
the fellowship, but I can't think of a Big Book phrase
which has entered into common usage by the general
public which wasn't already in use before the book was
written.

The Big Book has much colorful, if dated, language
like "the goose hung high," and "even plain ordinary
whoopee parties."

I think there is no conspiracy with the editors of
Bartlett's or anybody else.  We're simply not as
quoted
by the public at large as some might imagine.

Sam Sommers
Elkhart Indiana



--- spebsqsa@... wrote:

> Scores, perhaps hundreds, of phrases entered into
> common usage
> direct from the Big Book of of Alcoholics Anonymous
> and from
> other A.A. books and pamphlets. Yet I haven't found
> any of
> them in "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" or other
> similar
> reference books tracing the origins of common
> quotations.
>
> I can't see that happening without a conscious
> decision by
> the editors of these collections, either on their
> own or at
> the request of Alcoholics Anonymous, to avoid
> sourcing any
> quotations to A.A. literature. Can anyone offer some
> insight
> on this topic?
>




________________________________________________________________________________\
____
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469

Dear Byron:

It sounds like Bill to me. I did not hear him make that remark,  but
he did tell me once, when I complained to him at NYC HQ that a new
group I had just joined in upstate New York had accused me of wanting
to steal their treasury (they didn't like some proposal I made for
disposing of excess funds in it), that I should start a new group and
forget about the accusation of wanting to raid their funds. "That's
how AA grew," he said. Tom W. Odessa, TX

On Jun 25, 2007, at 4:35 AM, Byron Bateman wrote:

> I have a question I'd like to post.
>
> Somewhere in the past I seem to remember reading about a question
> that was posed to Bill. It concerned him being asked about all the
> arguments/contention that could surround AA business meetings, or
> assemblies. He is supposed to have answered with; "That's A.A. at
> it's best."
>
> Does anyone know the validity of this statement, or if so, where I
> may find it?
>
> Byron Bateman
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Mike:

Tom Powers died a year or two ago at 93. His son, Thomas R. Powers,
is, I understand,, now in charge of Tom's old entity, "East Ridge,"
in Hankins, NY. Some years earlier he started an organization, "AAA,"
All Addicts Anonymous, which very likely still exists but how widely
known it is I do not know—not very I'd guess. Very long and very
complicated story to all this. I don't know if it will ever be told
either in full or to some extent even. That's probably up to his son.
Tom W., Odessa, TX


On Jun 24, 2007, at 5:45 PM, Mike wrote:

> I read a few years ago that Tom Powers was still alive. I also read
> that quite awhile ago he had started his own anonymous group. Anyone
> have any info? Thanks, Mike
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Except maybe for "A man of thirty was doing a great deal of spree drinking",
which as I understand it Bill took from a character in "The Common Sense of
Drinking" by Richard Peabody, all the "characters" in the book are based on real
people.
   I've always thought that the Jaywalker was metaphorically based on real
people, too...all us alcoholics.
   When Bill wrote, "We, who have been through the wringer, have to admit if we
substituted alcoholism for jay-walking, the illustration would fit exactly. 
However intelligent we may have been in other respects, where alcohol has been
involved, we have been strangely insane.  It’s strong language—but isn’t it
true?", I think he meant the parable to fit all us "real alcoholics."


terry144434 <terry@...> wrote:
           Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker?

I fully understand the connection between relapsing, lack of thought
and the links between the fellow having a queer sense of fun, but is
there any particular why reason Bill Jaywalking?

regards

Terry






"Everywhere is within walking distance if you have the time."

---------------------------------
Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.  Join Yahoo!'s user panel and
lay it on us.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Terry wrote
Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker?

I spent a couple of years in the McGill Medical Library collecting articles
on or about AA. They had a storage area which contained periodicals
published prior to 1930 and while looking around I came across a set of
bound copies of the Brooklyn Medical Journal.

I can't remember the issue but one of them contained a letter from a doctor
complaining about a patient who had been struck by various vehicles while
rushing about. My first thought was of the Jaywalker.

I was unable to gain access later as they were moved to a dead storage area.
Jim

There's been a discussion of the location of Stewart's Cafeteria where
some of the Alcoholic Squad (and others) used to meet.  I know there
was a Stewart's at Christopher Street, a Stewart's at 7th and 23rd, a
Stewart's at Columbus Circle, and obviously there were others.  I
think 7th and 23rd was where Kitty R worked (a long-time North Jersey
member who died fifty-plus years sober a few years ago).  I would
guess the Museum of NY City might have a record of all the Stewart's
locations, but I'm not in a position to look them up.  Perhaps someone
in the city might be able to find the addresses at least for those
south of Central Park.

Hi Terry,
   I've sometimes thought the Jaywalker example was a bit far-fetched, as I've
never heard of such a person except in the Big Book.  I think Bill made it up
just because it did sound so ridiculous, just as an alcoholic's drinking is when
we look at it honestly.  However, there are people who do dangerous things
repeatedly, such as speeding, and keep it up even after serious trouble.
Mel Barger

Mel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mel Barger
melb@...

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: terry144434
   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, June 25, 2007 9:41 AM
   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] The Jaywalker


   Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker?

   I fully understand the connection between relapsing, lack of thought
   and the links between the fellow having a queer sense of fun, but is
   there any particular why reason Bill Jaywalking?

   regards

   Terry





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone know why Bill used the Jaywalker?

I fully understand the connection between relapsing, lack of thought
and the links between the fellow having a queer sense of fun, but is
there any particular why reason Bill Jaywalking?

regards

Terry

Scores, perhaps hundreds, of phrases entered into common usage
direct from the Big Book of of Alcoholics Anonymous and from
other A.A. books and pamphlets. Yet I haven't found any of
them in "Bartlett's Familiar Quotations" or other similar
reference books tracing the origins of common quotations.

I can't see that happening without a conscious decision by
the editors of these collections, either on their own or at
the request of Alcoholics Anonymous, to avoid sourcing any
quotations to A.A. literature. Can anyone offer some insight
on this topic?

I have a question I'd like to post.

Somewhere in the past I seem to remember reading about a question that was posed
to Bill. It concerned him being asked about all the arguments/contention that
could surround AA business meetings, or assemblies. He is supposed to have
answered with; "That's A.A. at it's best."

Does anyone know the validity of this statement, or if so, where I may find it?

Byron Bateman

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Any attempt to Google a phrase from A.A. literature is bound
to find many examples derived from that same A.A. literature.
You need sources of older quotations. That is not a trivial
task.

Note that the 12&12 does not put the phrase in quotation marks.
It is only paraphrasing the concept. This was in a 1919 edition
of Bartlett's Familiar Quotations. It (a Beaumont and Fletcher
play) is not necessarily the source but it is old enough that
it could have been. At least it demonstrates that the concept
did not originate with the A.A. use of it:

http://www.bartleby.com/100/158.8.html
   NUMBER: 2227
   AUTHOR: Beaumont and Fletcher
   QUOTATION: Calamity is man’s true touchstone. (see Note 1)
   ATTRIBUTION: Four Plays in One: The Triumph of Honour. Sc. 1.

   Note 1.
   Ignis aurum probat, miseria fortes viros (
   Fire is the test of gold; adversity, of strong men).
   —Seneca: De Providentia, v. 9.

Mine is not a scholarly effort to identify one true source.
I merely illustrate some difficulties. Don't look for an exact
quotation if none is implied. Limit your search to texts that
predate the A.A. use of a phrase or concept. A more qualified
researcher than I might know what books were required reading
at Bill's schools and what plays he saw and what lecturers
he heard.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "whr122001" <whr122001@...>
>
> The actual text states "Someone who knew what he was talking about once
> remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress."
> As I read it, "someone" does not denote Bill or any of the other
> writers of the 12X12.
>
>

I read a few years ago that Tom Powers was still alive. I also read
that quite awhile ago he had started his own anonymous group. Anyone
have any info? Thanks, Mike

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...> wrote:
>
> I know of at least two major authors of the book
> Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (12&12)- Bill
> Wilson and Thomas E. Powers. There also appears to be
> at least one minor author or someone with a great deal
> of input, Dr. Harry Tiebout.
>
> Any of these people may have authored this quote and
> unless specific evidence exists (e.g. personal
> correspondence using this phrase)true authorship would
> be uncertain or at the least stated "as attributed
> to..."
>
>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > You will find this quote in the last line of page 93
> > of the 12 X 12
> >
> > Hope this helps
> >
> > Charles from California
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> > Of Matthugh Bennett
> > Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:19 AM
> > To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for
> > this quote?
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was
> > responsible for, "Pain
> > is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not,
> > then who is?
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places
> > on Yahoo! Travel.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

And I was inclined to guess that the source was either Father Edward
Dowling or Rev. Sam Shoemaker or Dr. Harry Tiebout, to each of whom Bill
referred in other contexts as "someone who knew what he was talking
about."  That was my guesswork order of probability, but I was never
able to get any further in that research.  The phrase becomes more
common in Bill's letters after 1957, as I believe an endnote in
*Not-God* evidences.

Wish I could be of more help.

ernie kurtz

whr122001 wrote:
>
>
> The actual text states "Someone who knew what he was talking about once
> remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress."
> As I read it, "someone" does not denote Bill or any of the other
> writers of the 12X12.
>
>

The actual text states "Someone who knew what he was talking about once
remarked that pain was the touchstone of all spiritual progress."
As I read it, "someone" does not denote Bill or any of the other
writers of the 12X12.

I know of at least two major authors of the book
Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions (12&12)- Bill
Wilson and Thomas E. Powers. There also appears to be
at least one minor author or someone with a great deal
of input, Dr. Harry Tiebout.

Any of these people may have authored this quote and
unless specific evidence exists (e.g. personal
correspondence using this phrase)true authorship would
be uncertain or at the least stated "as attributed
to..."



> Hello,
>
> You will find this quote in the last line of page 93
> of the 12 X 12
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Charles from California
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Matthugh Bennett
> Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:19 AM
> To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for
> this quote?
>
> I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was
> responsible for, "Pain
> is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not,
> then who is?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places
> on Yahoo! Travel.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

While we are on this topic, it seems that I have mostly seen this phrase
interpreted as meaning 'pain is required for spiritual growth'. Indeed, from the
context in which Bill wrote it, that seems correct. Had I been sober when Bill
was alive (I was not yet an alcoholic), I would have asked him what he really
meant.  Historically, we may never know. But a look in any dictionary or
thesaurus tells a different story.

     The first definition is of an actual 'stone':

A hard black stone, such as jasper or basalt, formerly used to test the quality
of gold or silver by comparing the streak left on the stone by one of these
metals with that of a standard alloy.

     Then it gets interesting:

             touch·stone (plural touch·stones)
             noun

             Definition:

             excellent example: a standard by which something is judged



By extension, the metaphorical use of touchstone means any physical or
intellectual measure by which the validity of a concept can be tested.

An excellent quality or example that is used to test the excellence or
genuineness of others: "the qualities of courage and vision that are the
touchstones of leadership"

Synonyms: criterion, benchmark, yardstick, hallmark, standard, acid test, litmus
test.



     So I think what the phrase really means is that 'How we handle pain (in
comparison to how we used to) is the test of our spiritual progress'.

     I have no idea if this will make it to the group but it does seem to be a
question of historical significance. I am sure that it also has great spiritual
significance for the readers of Bill's words.

                                                                                                    
G



   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Matthugh Bennett
   To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 11:18 AM
   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for this quote?


   I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain is
the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is?

   ---------------------------------
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   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i googled this and all references i could find attribute it to bill wilson.


   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Matthugh Bennett
   To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 12:18 PM
   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for this quote?


   I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain is
the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is?

   ---------------------------------
   Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

You will find this quote in the last line of page 93 of the 12 X 12

Hope this helps

Charles from California





-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Matthugh Bennett
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:19 AM
To: aahistorylovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Is Bill responsible for this quote?

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain
is the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is?


---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Yahoo! Groups Links

I was wondering if anyone could tell me if Bill was responsible for, "Pain is
the touchstone for spiritual growth" and if not, then who is?


---------------------------------
Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-----Original Message-----
From: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com [
<mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
mailto:AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernest Kurtz
Sent: Friday, June 22, 2007 3:29 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] "aaholygrail"
Might anyone know the provenance of this mss. from the time it left the
hands of Barry L.?
Thank you.
ernie kurtz


Barry Leach's estate legally gave the inheritance to a nephew or
grand-nephew from what I remember of the posting of three years ago. The
question is exactly when Lois gave the "printer's draft" to Barry, after his
failed effort with AAWS for writer's fees on Living Sober or after he
collaborated on Lois' Story? He was her friend and no speculator...

There's a hidden blessing in the 40% depreciation of this year's auction
price-- if the poster 'Old Bill (is that you, Barefoot Bill?)' is correct,
the preserved 180 pages in viewable scanned formats would be a great
adventure.

I wonder about Jim Burwell's edit copy notes, too. However possesses it
these days, please never auction it, share it!

Amusingly when I think of an 'aaholygrail' I think of a plain, old stoneware
Horn & Hardart's coffee cup!

Love and serenity to you all,

Rick, Illinois



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Might anyone know the provenance of this mss. from the time it left the
hands of Barry L.?

Thank you.

ernie kurtz