Try the 12&12 on page 119:

"A.A. has many single alcoholics who wish to
marry and  are in a position to do so. Some
marry fellow A.A.'s. How do they come out? On
the whole these marriages are very good ones.
Their common suffering as drinkers, their
common interest in A.A. and spiritual things,
often enhance such unions. It is only where
'boy meets girl on A.A. campus,' and love
follows at first sight, that difficulties may
develop. The prospective partners need to be
solid A.A.'s and long enough acquainted to know
that their compatibility at spiritual, mental,
and emotional levels is a fact and not wishful
thinking. They need to be as sure as possible
that no deep-lying emotional handicap in either
will be likely to rise up under later pressures
to cripple them. The considerations are equally
true and important for the A.A.'s who marry
'outside' A.A. With clear understanding and
right, grown-up attitudes, very happy results
do follow."
__________________________________

---- a year might be rushing it! to achieve
that compatibility at spiritual, mental and
emotional levels ... rule out any deep lying
emotional handicaps... gain clear understanding
and right grown-up attitudes.


teeper@... wrote:

>AAHL,
>
>    A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically
>in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject
>of refraining from relationships (or any other
>thing that might interfere with sobriety) for
>the first year or so.
>
>    That's the general wisdom of my home group
>and I've heard that advice given before, but
>I don't know if it's ever been addressed in
>any Conference-approved literature, or on this
>site, for that matter.
>
>

I have used the Hazelden index cost about 3.00 at my Central
Office/intergroup. I use a Concordance that include words in context
for the Twelve and Twelve and Big Book called "164 and More" compiled
and edited by Ralph T.

The website for it is excellent and is as follows:

http:\\www.164andMore.com

The book sells for 15.00 post-paid and has been a great resource for me
during book studies and the like. Yours in Service,
Brewster B.

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "gcb900"
<Baileygc23@...> wrote:
>
> AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W.
> as part of its history.  There is also an
> important letter where Jung gives his opinion
> of the Oxford Group which I believe should be
> included among the materials on the AA History
> Lovers website, as what others think of AA and
> its freedoms is important.
>

Jung's thinking did go through some changes over
time, and he seems to have been a little more
positive, or at least less negative, about the
OG during the 1920s. In the "Collected Letters"
there is an early letter mentioning the Groups,
which was apparently written to a member of his
extended family or a close friend (I assume
this because he signed it "Carl" which he almost
never did). The person had already become
involved with the OG and Jung made the observation
that, for that particular person at least, Group
involvement was probably a good thing. The
recipient of the letter is not identified, and
the endorsement -- if endorsement is even the
right term -- is certainly tentative.

In the 1930s, Jung became critical or even
contemptuous of the Groups. The reason may have
been partially a personal one. A friend and
colleague, Alphonse Maeder, had become involved
with the Groups in the mid-20s. Maeder was one
of the few men in the analytic community with
whom Jung remained on good terms over a long
period of time, probably because  Maeder had
an easy-going personality and more humility
than most people in the field.

The two of them eventually parted company,
primarily because Jung wanted Maeder to take
on the leadership of a professional organization
with Nazi connections. Maeder's excuse (purposely
lame?) was that he was devoting too much time
to the OG to take on anything else. This may
have contributed to Jung's disapproval of the
Group.

So the situation is as usual a little complicated.
Certainly Jung's distrust of "group think," the
psychology of crowds, was consistent thoughout
his career. So it is understandable that he
would have questioned the wisdom of joining an
organization like the Oxford Group.

Cora

Cheryl,

I have a dictionary/concordance that is prooduced
by an outfit called the "Big Book Dictionary."
It was given me by a friend.  Their web site is

http://www.bigbookdictionary.com

It is conveniently sized to fit inside the Big
Book and is current for the 4th edition - the
first 192 pages [through Dr Bob's Story].
Currently their price is $4.00 each and that
includes shipping.

In Love,

John S.

- - - -

From: "Bob S." <rstonebraker212@...>
(rstonebraker212 at insightbb.com)

Question:  "Does any one know where I can get
a complete concordance like the one referred
to below?"

Answer:
A Concordance to Alcoholics Anonymous
By Stephen and Frances E. Poe

Purple Salamander Press
1625 Heitman Court
Reno, NV  89509

This book is nearly 1000 pages - I have found
it very useful.

Bob S.

- - - -

From: "momaria33772" <jhoffma6@...>
(jhoffma6 at tampabay.rr.com)

I'm not sure specifically which Concordance is
referred to here, however, my friend Ray G.,
the Dr. Bob's Home archivist,is a snow bird
here in Florida.

He has a few copies of the huge blue hardcover
available, this is written by Stephen Poe
printed by Purple Salamander press 1990.

Hi Folks,

Here on my desk is a paperback with a blue
coated stock cover with the numeral "12" in
gold on it, upper right corner.

Cover is glued to stapled text pages, 5 1/2"
x 7 1/8"

Inside is the title page:
"TWELVE STEPS and the older Member"

Publisher line is:
"Older Member Press,Box 25, Guilford, Conn"

Copyright page:
"Copyright 1964 by Older Member Press
First Serial rights granted A.A. Grapevine
1954 through 1963; all other rights retained
by copyright owner.
First Printing June, 1964.
Library of Congress catalog number:64-22572
Price Two Dollars"

Great lines from the intro:

"The newest newcomer is just as authentically
an explorer into the infinite as were Bill and
Bob when they founded AA on June 10,1935.
Nobody can take the Tweve Steps for anybody
else. Each individual who sets his foot on
the road suggested by the Steps finds himself
on his own endlessly challenging, sometime
perilous journey into undiscovered territory."

In Gratitude 12/24/06
Happy Christmas from Barrington, IL
Barry

Barry Murtaugh
CMLJBM@...

AAHL,

     A sponsee asked me if I knew specifically
in either the Big Book or the 12&12 if the subject
of refraining from relationships (or any other
thing that might interfere with sobriety) for
the first year or so.

     That's the general wisdom of my home group
and I've heard that advice given before, but
I don't know if it's ever been addressed in
any Conference-approved literature, or on this
site, for that matter.

     Any help would be greatly appreciated!

           Spiritus contra spiritum!
           Terry P.

Hola,

I read that book review in 2002 and reacted in
horror at how misleading his perceptions were.
Trying to fit AA into preconceived ethnological/
anthropological parameters.  His observations
may be true for the group he observed, but it
is misleading to say it applies to all AA in
Mexico.

My first 8 years of sobriety (sobriety date
Sept 6, 1986) were almost exclusively in Spanish
language meetings in the  Mexican states of
Michoacan, Sinaloa, Nayarit and Jalisco,
including a national AA convention in Mexico
City.

My personal observations of these meetings are
not in agreement with his.  (I have a degree
in Art History/Anthropology from UC Berkeley).
I had planned to order the book and see for
myself ... but that idea faded ... now will
do it...the reviewer may have made mistatements.

It is mileading what Marcelo Suarez-Orozco,
co-director of the Harvard (University)
Immigration Project, said when he praised
"Staying Sober in Mexico City." He said it
likely will become not only the standard
reference on the cultural study of
alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the
best overall social science contributions to
the study of Mexican culture in the last
50 years," with the study of one group.

It is similar to a non AA making a study of
an AA group in a small town in the US and
calling it "the standard reference on the
cultural study of alcoholism in the US."

Yes. Photos of Bill W and Dr. Bob often have
candles and flowers placed below them. I have
not noticed the Mexicans being any more boastful
than American men on their sexual prowess or
manliness.  Guadalajara had six Women´s AA groups
in 1988, now who knows, I attended most of them.
Now living in Puerto Vallarta, I have attended
three different Mexican all Women AA groups.

I have had the opportunity to travel with Mexican
AA carrying the message to Isla Marias Penal
Colony 1,500 men and 53 women ... to work with
the women. Here, almost to a person, the
prisoners had been incarcerated for a crime
committed while drunk.

To Sierra Madre mountain villages outside of
Guadalajara ... 1/2 hour by twin engine plane
the 15 minutes. Here we helped form a new AA
group, they had been meeting for a years, but
were not a registered group. And did not
perceive the same things as Mr. Brandes.

Angela Corelis
Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco
Mexico

P.S. Just finished a presentation on AA History
in Mexico at the 5th Annual Sobriety Under the
Sun AA Conference in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico,
January 26, 27, 28, 2007.

I asked Fernando Q. (25 years sober) to present
the same talk he gave on that topic at the
International AA Convention in San Diego. Plus
invited local English speaking Mexican AA member
(4 years sober, but interviewed Pedrito the only
still living founder of Spanish language AA in
Vallarta) to present the history of Mexican AA
in Vallarta and Ray (30 years sobriety, visiting
Vallarta for 6 months each year since sober) to
present the history of English Language AA in
Vallarta.

I believe I met Stanley Brandes in 1997 at a seminar
held at Brown University in 1997. He was discussing
his work in Mexico at that time.

I wonder if the finished product included Seccion
Mexico which is a true Fellowship of the Spirit in
Mexico where they are living the Traditions and freely
carrying the message to all who seek recovery.

- - - - - -

Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:

> A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,
> "Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of
> Texas Press, 2002.
>
> John Blair <jblair@...> (jblair at wmis.net)
> sent me the following article about Brandes'
> research:
>
> From the Berkeley campus of
> the University of California:
>
>
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html
>
> UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's
> rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous
>
>   30 April 2002
>
>   By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations

Dear Glenn:

I was much stimulated by your first question
below to think about whether or not AA and the
OG might have stuck together. I think not,
because each was, from fairly early times, on
a quite clearly different track to the future.
My remarks here are based on much reading
about AA, and about the OG and its successor
organizations, and on considerable personal
knowledge of AA and its history. But in the
end I am writing here essentially just my own
impressions and theories. The hypothetical
question as to whether the two groups could
have stuck together is really unanswerable
because what happened is that they did not,
and real history, real events, are irreversible.
One can't step in the same river twice.

First, look at the leaders. Buchman and Wilson
both had extraordinary spiritual experiences
of the transformative type so well described in
James's "Varieties of Religious Experience"
and Bucke's "Cosmic Consciousness." Both men
came out of their brief but intense illuminations
with completely changed characters. Both became
strong, magnetic leaders, originators of world-
changing movements. Neither had been that
before the experiences, although they were
both thought highly talented in various ways.
It was perhaps inevitable that two such "large"
men would bump heads when it finally came to
a showdown over their ideas.

But having cited some equivalencies, I now
suggest some strong differences:

Buchman (1878-1961) was Bill's (1895-1970) senior
by 17 years; he was one year older than Dr. Bob.
Buchman's spiritual experience in 1908, when he
was 30, antedated Bill's in 1934 (when Bill was 38)
by 26 years. Buchman was established as a leader
with an international group in existence when
"the alcoholic squad," led by Bill and Dr. Bob
formed itself in Akron under OG auspices in
late 1935.

AA ideas would not come together and be presented
to the public for several more years; the Big
Book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") was published in
1939. But AA's "Big Book," was more completely
an action program, and a more detailed one than
the OG ever printed, despite the immense amount
of often excellent OG literature that was created
over many years. Of course AA's Big Book was
based largely on Oxford Group principles, but
already somewhat modified to fit the AA
circumstance.

Both groups depended, to begin with, on one-on-one
personal contacts more than on anything written
to accomplish their goals. In the matter of
movement goals, of course, is where major
differences arose. Buchman aimed at all men
(meant in the sense of all men and women); Bill
and Dr. Bob (mostly, as far as the public was
concerned Bill's silent partner) soon realized
—- as early as their months together in Akron
in the summer of '35 —- that they were out after
only their fellow alcoholics. I seem to recall
reading that Buchman disapproved of such
"specialism" and told the alkies that, perhaps
through Sam Shoemaker.

Buchman and the OG generally operated on the
theory that if they could change "leaders" and
otherwise important people ("key people" in
their expression), the mass of people would
ultimately tend to change with them. There is
no reason to say they were essentially wrong.
Protestantism advanced because some German
princes took it up, and their people followed
them. My impression has been that all through
their changes of name and policies and
locations, this emphasis by the OG on "changing
leaders first" has stayed constant. As has the
emphasis on publishing their successes on the
world stage, so that their movement might
grow and make beneficial changes in the lives
of many everywhere, and not unimportantly,
lead to significant donations to the OG work.
The OG published and reiterated its successes
among the prestigious and powerful to the point
of turning off many; I expect Bill and Bob were
among those turned off by this extravagance.
Even when AA collected some "celebrities" there
was no desire by AA to capitalize on their
attachment; some early "anonymity-breakers"
among that population were thought actually
harmful to the fellowship.

One can perhaps put it this way: Buchman's traits
included an extravagance of language when making
claims for his OG (and later MRA); he was often
accused of being extravagant in his style of
living -— expensive clothing, "posh" hotels,
luxurious traveling. He, in fact, owned very
little personal property, so there was a
principled side to his methods; his expenses were
for his work. His style was rather derivative
of Philadelphia, a city of great wealth and even
elegance, under the English Quakers and Protestant
Germans who settled in Pennsylvania. Whereas
Bill and Bob for all their education and urban
sophistication retained through their lives a
kind of "Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter" outlook
that disliked ostentation, bragging, and
extravagance, without, I think, their ever
being cheapskates.

Bill and AA ultimately went in quite an opposite
direction from the OG organizationally: personal
anonymity, meaning there would be no publicity
sought for big-name adherents of their cause,
no money sought from anyone not an alcoholic,
no expensive buildings and "centers," none of
the trappings of institutional wealth for any
aspect of AA itself, however the individual
members might disport themselves.

But perhaps the biggest difference between the
two groups and their founding leaders was in
their handling of the twin problems of leadership
(that "L" word again) and succession that beset
every social movement.

Buchman stayed in charge of the OG/MRA until his
death in 1961.  He had delegated Peter Howard,
an Englishman, as his successor. Howard died
unexpectedly in Lima, Peru, in 1965. (I have run
across at least one writer who thinks Howard
was murdered. He did not say who, supposing the
suspicion were correct, might have done it, or
why.) Howard's death precipitated a leadership
crisis in MRA, which was ultimately solved by
the movement's heavyweights (a board of directors
or trustees presumably) which instituted a change
of policies. These in turn have led, whether or
not deliberately I do not know, to the essential
disappearance of the organization from the U.S.
and Britain, and developments towards the East
(India) and South (Africa) from their long-time
European HQ at Caux, Switzerland. A name change
to Initiates of Change occurred along the way.

Bill Wilson's solution to the leadership-succession
problem seems, by contrast, extraordinarily
successful —- so far. Way back in the 1940s he
had complained in the Grapevine that he wished
he and Bob could "join AA." He was lamenting
their lionization and consequent isolation as
"founders." Surely Bob  had no heart for
lionization at all; he firmly declined some
Akron AAs' proposal for a stately mausoleum for
him and Anne, and he told Bill he thought they
both should be buried "like other folks."

Bob spoke for the last time at the 1950
International Conference in Cleveland. By 1955
Bill had made his decision: he would foreclose
the founder/Big Shot role in AA for (he hoped)
all time. He stepped down as founder-leader at
the 1955 "Coming of Age" Conference at St. Louis
(marvelously reported on by him in "AA Comes
of Age") and "turned the movement over to the
members." He worked at getting a majority of
alcoholics on the GSO board of trustees and at
starting the annual GSO delegates meeting in
New York City every April, and, in the Third
(Service) Legacy, he accomplished two things of
major importance (among other things): (1) he,
as it were, wrote out of AA's permanent structure
any need for, or means to achieve, replacements
of himself and Bob; there would be no "designated
successor" to them as there had been to Buchman
in OG/MRA, and (2) he deposited all authority
and power in the individual AA Group; there
would be no rule "from the top," as in the
OG/MRA. The NYC HQ would be subservient to the
Delegates's conferences and ultimately only a
publishing, not a control, operation. This he
clearly hoped would squeak AA safely around the
bugaboo that assails all top-down organizations
like governments and churches, namely the rise
and steadily increasing empowerment of an HQ
bureaucracy.

As to that there is Mosca's Iron Law to keep in
mind, which runs to the effect that all
organizations (top-down rule assumed) end up
ultimately serving the people who run it rather
than the mission it was originally set up to
serve.

The Puritan-Yankee-Vermonter master publicist,
lawyer, speculator, magnetic leader, etc., etc.,
did his level best to protect AA from the
future's swollen egos, and even, as he said,
from himself; he lived 16 years past his
step-down as leader and never made any attempts,
so far as I know, to reassert himself as the
man in charge. It was quite a wondrous working,
a very rare case of selflessness.

- - - -

On Jan 22, 2007, at 11:33 AM, Glenn Chesnut wrote:

> There is a nice little summary of the later
> history of the Oxford Group at:
>
> http://www.uk.initiativesofchange.org/index.php?sn=2,2#top
>
> Could AA have in fact remained linked to the
> Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of
> the OG and the way they were evolving? In AA,
> we tend to focus only on the parts of the Oxford
> Group that we are interested in, and ignore
> other things that were essential parts of the
> movement.
>

I reviewed this book for American Ethnologist.
It's an online review:

http://www.aaanet.org/aes/bkreviews/result_details.cfm?bk_id=632

It's a really good book.

   Maria

Maria G. Swora, Ph.D. MPH
Department of Sociology
Benedictine College
Atchison, Kansas 66002

- - - -

Glenn Chesnut <glennccc@...> wrote:

A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,
"Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of
Texas Press, 2002.

John Blair <jblair@...> (jblair at wmis.net)
sent me the following article about Brandes'
research:

From the Berkeley campus of
the University of California:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html

UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's
rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous

30 April 2002

By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations
________________________________________

The full text of Kathleen Maclay's article
is given in AAHistoryLovers Message 4039:
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/message/4039
________________________________________

Gary,

Bertha died on November 19th, 1912 at the Flower
Hospital in New York City.  Her death certificate
indicates she died during surgery to remove a
sarcoma of the right kidney.

She was interred at Walnut Ridge Cemetery in
Jeffersonville, Indiana (across the river from
Louisville, KY) on November 28, 1912.

Robert Thomsen, in his book "Bill W", indicates
that Bertha's body laid in an above-ground crypt
(the earth too frozen for burial) at the Factory
Point Cemetery (in Dorsett, VT) that winter.  But
this seens unlikely since only 9 days separated
her death in Manhattan and burial in Indiana.

Bill's account makes for an impelling story.
I take it as only that.

John K.

- - - -

From: Shakey1aa@... (Shakey1aa at aol.com)

Please read pg. 36 in Pass It On. She was buried
in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

yis
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

- - - -

From: "Mitchell K."
<mitchell_k_archivist@...>
(mitchell_k_archivist at yahoo.com)

"I wonder if someone could clarify for me
how Bill could leave his school in Manchester,
Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours
in Jeffersonville, Indiana."

The same way that many other so-called "facts"
are presented in AA literature -- it sounds
better than the truth. (Or ... there are lots
of other women by that same name in the world.)

- - - -

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "garylock7008"
<garylock7008@...> wrote:
>
> I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking -
> Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter
> 2006 about the final resting place of Bertha
> Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend.
>
> The author of the article - William W., from
> New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried
> in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents.
>
> [See photo on page three.]
>
> As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill
> Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue
> of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am
> preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA
> meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of
> that issue Bill discribes his great depression
> following Bertha's death, in fact he writes:
>
> "I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard
> where the girl was buried, sitting there for
> hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly
> collapsed."
>
> I wonder if someone could clarify for me how
> Bill could leave his school in Manchester,
> Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours
> in Jeffersonville, Indiana.
>
> Gary
>

Hi Gary,
   I was one of the authors of "Pass It On," so
I had the same question you posed here.  I
concluded that Bertha's body was temporarily
stored in a vault before being taken to
Jeffersonville for a later service and burial.
It's also possible that she might have been
buried in Manchester and then exhumed and
reburied in Jeffersonville.  I also understand
that winter burials are delayed in part of New
England because the ground is frozen over.  I
think that was the case when Bill died in
January, but was not buried in East Dorset
until spring.

   Incidentally, I asked a good friend in
Louisville, Paul L., to make a search for
Bertha's grave back in 1980.  He was a very
capable man and made a diligent search, but
couldn't find it.  So we have to give William
W. high marks for this successful search.
We should also thank Amy Filliatreau, the
new archivist, for getting the photo.  She
was visiting in Louisville and went over and
snapped it on her own.

Mel Barger

melb@...
(melb at accesstoledo.com)

Greetings.... I have heard this story quite a
few times from my Grandsponsor( Alf S.) who
also contributed to the funds along with his
good friend Wesley P. in the house purchase
along with a few others.

He's still alive and in the nursing home. I see
him every so often he's 92 and still has some
stories to tell myself and others. He was a Panel
Delegate and came into the Oxford Group in 1934.

THX! Corey F.

In reference to the post by bobnotgod and his
statement that Gail L. signed for the  mortgage
in 1984, I doubt that it was Gail L. of Akron
Archives.  I've met her several times and I'm
sure she would have been a teenager in 1984 and
unable to sign a mortgage. (Aren't I a diplomat!)

Perhaps another AAHL can shed some more light
on that.

I have a  copy of the Extensions newsletter
from the Founders Foundation dated Jan. 1988
that says “The Home is Now Ours." It has a
picture of a ceremonial mortgage  burning with
Don C., Kurt S., Kay S., Mel B., K-C S., Ron S.,
and Joe G. The  article states, “The home is
now ours! The Mortgage Has Been Paid."

In the  newsletter entitled Founders Foundation
News the Articles of Incorporation are listed
and show Sue S. Windows, Kay S., and Joseph G.
as the initial trustees. It is dated Jan. 14,
1985. Was the house paid  off in 3 years?

In reference to trying to find out more about
Wesley P, Kay and Oscar -- I received many
e-mails -- thank you to Sherry, Old Bill, Don B
(who will be a speaker at the next Founder's Day
on Saturday afternoon), Tommy H., Woody of
Akron and Diz T. Diz referred me to the next
best thing than the horses' mouth; he sent me to
his sponcee John W. and he has sent me the
following which he has allowed me to share with
you.

Dear  Mike,

Wes was upset when he heard the news that Dr.
Bob's home was in bad shape and was in danger
of being  bulldozed to make room for a parking
lot.  The mortgage that existed at that time was
rather small as I remember but Wes felt that
interested members of AA should participate in
the purchase and it should be done outside of AA.
He was in Pompano but he had plenty of support
in Akron and he was asked to  be the "point" man
and raise the funds to pay off the mortgage.  He
took on the assignment and Wes had a lot of
friends whose wealth had increased because of
sobriety and Wes asked for contributions and
of course they responded.

He also conducted a  raffle of a first edition
Big Book with Bill Wilson's and Ebby Thatcher's
signature on the inside covers.  The tickets
were sold for $25.00 per chance and plenty were
sold.  If you purchased a ticket, Wes would
send you  back a concordance to the Big Book and
12x12 to acknowledge receipt of your  purchase.
Wes died in November, 1985 and the drawing was
set for January, 1986.  I had Wesley's widow,
Rena, draw the winning ticket and I presented
the book to Ray G. in St. Petersburg in February,
1986.  I don't think Ray was ever the same after
that as he and his wife have become archivist
for Dr. Bob's home.

Charlie P. from Maysville, AR became the chief fund
raiser after that and has been successful at
getting a principal of close to $500.00 so that
the interest is divided each year between Dr.
Bob's home and  Bill's birthplace in East Dorset,
VT.

Wes never purchased  the mortgage although he
could have.  He thought it better to have
interested members contribute so that it would
be a collective effort which  seems to work
best with AA members. Wes was quite a salesman
and got the job started.

Kay and Wes were good buddies and all of that
committee worked very hard to achieve something
really  great for the members of AA.  Wes would
keep me posted as to the progress  in our daily
conversations if anything significant occurred
in Akron.  He was pleased with the progress
and on the evening of his death, according to
Rena, he had been on the phone to Akron before
he retired for the night and later died in
his sleep.

I understand his  picture is displayed somewhere
in the home and as is with most of what Wes
stood  for, he's just as happy to remain anonymous.
All of those involved know the part he played
and as the one who started the Founder's
Foundation, it  goes on and the homes can never
be taken away.

As  ever,
John  W.

The  original mortgage for the house was $38,000
according to the Founders Foundation  news. The
lending institution was the First National Bank,
Akron, Ohio, and the rate was 1 1/2 % over the
prime interest rate. The down payment was 25% or
$9,500.00.  It was a commercial loan and they
also had to pay 2 points ($570.00) plus closing
costs (~$500.00). The monthly payment was
$360.00 per month for 15 years plus taxes and
insurance. The law required 5 people to sign for
it and the committee thought the house would
cover any risk involved by those 5 people.
Tradition Six was not broken by the members
having a Foundation and as Kay said  "Come home
often, it’s yours," "The Home of Dr. Bob is
yours," "God will do the impossible."

John also shared, "Wes started a big book study
on January 5, 1976, and that group has evolved
into the Wednesday Night Study Group in Pompano
Beach.  Since I was there when it started and
was part of the group until I moved to
Tallahassee last summer, I know its history.
Wes was also responsible for getting the Big
Book Seminars and Studies off the ground.  As
I was his pigeon, I saw this all unfold and
fortunately for me, Wes asked me to be part of
the program."

Yours in Service,
Shakey Mike  Gwirtz

See Ya in Phoenix Sept.6-9 at the
11th National Archives Convention.

Does any one know where I can get a complete
concordance like the one referred to below?

   Cheryl Fitzsimmons
   http://my2.tupperware.com/CherylFitz

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2007
To: AA History Lovers
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Wesley Parrish
and Dr Bob's House

I have a letter from Wesley that I received in
July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the
Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed
himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included
a copy of his Concordance, which I have used
many, many times over the years.

     Mike Barns

You write:

> Could AA have in fact remained linked to the
> Oxford Group at all, given the inner dynamic of
> the OG and the way they were evolving?

Evidently Clarence S. felt not ... citing specific
reasons to Dr.Bob (as presented in Mitchell K.'s
"How It Worked) pp.136-141.  Then there's "AA
The Story," by Kurtz, pp 45-57, which go into
some detail the myriad reasons why AA naturally
and inevitably separated from the Oxford Group
in order to even proclaim "a primary purpose,"
let alone anonymity, attraction rather than
promotion, no opinion on outside matters, no
outside affiliation, and a God of our own
understanding.

I would also say before we get into a "true
assessment" of the Oxford group-even as it went
through its various permutations, we would do
well to first of all understand the biases of
the Oxford Group, as dominated by Buchman, during
this period of time in the 30's and 40's.

For example: From "What is the Oxford Group,"
1933, P. 6:"Their aim is A New World Order for
Christ, the King," and "The Oxford Group works
within churches of all denominations, planning
to bring those outside back into their folds
and to re-awaken those within to their
responsibilities as Christians."

Then there's their strategy of trying to bring
the "movers and shakers" into the fold so that
"money, property and prestige" might serve to
influence the masses more quickly.

Then there's the Oxford Group's take on
homosexuality: "There are many who wear suede
shoes who are not homosexual, but in Europe
and America the majority of homosexuals do.
They favor green as a color in clothes and
decorations. Men are given to an excessive
display and use of the handkerchief. They tend
to let the hair grow long, use scent and are
frequently affected in speech, mincing in gait
and feminine in mannerisms. They are often very
gifted in the arts. They tend to exhibitionism.
They can be cruel and vindictive, for sadism
usually has a homosexual root. They are often
given to moods....There is an unnecessary
touching of hands, arms and shoulders. In the
homosexual the elbow grip is a well-known sign.
Of course, they were condemned.
  (See Remaking Men, Paul Campbell, M.D. and
   Peter Howard, 1954, pages 60-62.)

Probably the most famous of the Buchman
utterances:

"On returning from Europe, Frank Buchman, Oxford
group revivalist, is quoted by a reputable New
York paper as having said: "I thank heaven for
a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front-line
defense against the anti-Christ of communism....
My barber in London told me Hitler saved all
Europe from communism. That's how he felt. Of
course I don't condone everything the Nazis do.
Antisemitism? Bad, naturally. I suppose Hitler
sees a Karl Marx in every Jew. But think what
it would mean to the world if Hitler surrendered
to the control of God. Or Mussolini. Or any
dictator. Through such a man God could control
a nation overnight and solve every last
bewildering problem."

"In this interview the social philosophy of the
Oxford group, long implicit in its strategy,
is made explicit, and revealed in all its
childishness and viciousness. This philosophy
has been implicit in Buchmanite strategy from
the beginning. It explains the particular
attention which is paid by Mr. Buchman and his
followers to big men, leaders, in industry and
politics. The idea is that if the man of power
can be converted, God will be able to control
a larger area of human life through his power
than if a little man were converted. This is
the logic which has filled the Buchmanites
with touching solicitude for the souls of such
men as Henry Ford or Harvey Firestone and
prompted them to whisper confidentially from
time to time that these men were on the very
threshold of the kingdom of God. It is this
strategy which prompts or justifies the first-
class travel of all the Oxford teams. They hope
to make contact with big men in the luxurious
first-class quarters of ocean liners."

Excerpted from "Christianity and Power Politics"
by Reinhold Niebuhr, the eminent theologian who
is associated with The Serenity Prayer. This
appears to be a word-for-word reprint of
Niebuhr's criticism of Buchman that first
appeared in The Christian Century magazine,
October 7, 1936, pages 1315 and 1316.

Isolated thought?  Not really.  Here's another:
"... Human problems aren't economic. They're
moral and they can't be solved by immoral measures.
They could be solved within a God-controlled
democracy, or perhaps I should say a theocracy,
and they could be solved through a God-controlled
Fascist dictatorship."

Initiatives of Change, the Oxford group's latest
reincarnation, seems admirably multi-cultural
and focused on the the interpersonal and what
each of us can do to make the world a better
place.  In addition, there are stories where
such changes have taken place with some idea
of how they've occurred.  It seems that the
insistence upon change from the "top down"
and Jesus Christ as the only way have been
dropped.  More power to them.

Does anyone know the identity of the first
black woman in AA?

A book about AA in Mexico City: Stanley Brandes,
"Staying Sober in Mexico City," University of
Texas Press, 2002.

(AA historians should certainly be doing
more work on Spanish-speaking AA, because
Latin America accounts for one third of AA's
membership worldwide.)

John Blair <jblair@...> (jblair at wmis.net)
sent me the following article about Brandes'
research:

From the Berkeley campus of
the University of California:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2002/04/30_alano.html

UC Berkeley anthropologist examines Mexico City's
rapidly proliferating Alcoholics Anonymous

   30 April 2002

   By Kathleen Maclay, Media Relations

Berkeley - When University of California,
Berkeley, anthropologist Stanley Brandes was
invited by his Mexico City shoeshine man to
join him at a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous,
the longtime scholar of Spain and Latin America
was a bit surprised, but he immediately agreed.

After attending that first meeting, Brandes
returned for hundreds more over the course of
several years as he launched a detailed
ethnographic study of one AA group among the
thousands flourishing in Mexico and Latin
America. The stories of the men in that group
are told in the just-published, "Staying Sober
in Mexico City" (University of Texas Press).

Latin America is calculated to account for
one-third of AA's membership worldwide, and
El Salvador is said to have the highest AA
membership per capita of any nation. Throughout
Mexico, about 90 percent of AA's members are
male.

Brandes said he was intensely curious to learn
how AA, which in the United States is generally
associated with Protestant faiths and a middle-
class clientele striving to maintain sobriety,
proliferates in a Mexican culture characterized
by ardent Catholicism, poverty and often a
hard-drinking machismo. What he learned, Brandes
said, may add to the understanding of 12-step
groups, in general, and of Latino participation
in such groups.

The first Alcoholics Anonymous groups in Mexico
began in the 1940s with English-speaking,
"gringo" residents of the country. Some 16
years later, records show that the organization
had just three Spanish-speaking AA groups in
that country.

Current estimates, however, indicate that,
today, Mexico City counts more than 1,500 AA
groups and about 300,000 members. In a Mexican
village of 3,000 people where Brandes has long
done anthropological fieldwork, there are at
least two regular AA meeting groups.

Although Alcoholics Anonymous is the subject
of hundreds of books and extensive research,
"Staying Sober" is different because it takes
a single AA group as its subject and deals not
only with the members' ideology, but how AA
works for them through social relationships
and group dynamics.

"I am less interested in therapeutic outcomes
than in the fate of the group itself: in
questions of leadership, social control, and
the identity of individuals as members of the
group," Brandes wrote.

With men comprising the majority of the AA
membership in Mexico and its capital, he said,
an interesting thing happens in the group
meetings as participants redefine what it means
to be a man in Mexico City. (Working-class women
in Mexico are more likely to join Neurotics
Anonymous or Al-Anon, a group for family members
of alcoholics, Brandes said).

"A lot of what goes on in the bars goes on in
the meeting rooms," Brandes said, recalling
meetings of the AA group he called "Moral
Support," where he repeatedly heard men brag
about sexual exploits and misbehavior.

Brandes noted in his book that, although AA is not
allied with any religion, it is often associated
with Protestant faiths because of the religion
of its founders, its somewhat Puritanical focus
on abstinence from drinking, and a linkage of
its 12-step program with a multitude of Biblical
references. Yet, he said, Mexican AA members
have managed to infuse much of the typical
meeting and group structure with popular Catholic
symbolism and form.

One way, Brandes said, is the use of the AA
member's telling of personal stories in a way
similar to Catholic confessionals. Another is
the use of alcohol-free fiestas to celebrate
sobriety anniversaries to mimic the typical
merriment of Catholic celebrations for baptisms,
confirmations, marriages and other events.

Also, Brandes found that the use of "sponsors"
to guide newer AA members has been co-opted by
the Mexicans as the equivalent of religious
godparents, or "padrinos."

"The Moral Support meeting room is certainly not
a church," Brandes wrote. "But, in a number of
ways, it replicates the kind of sacred space
that would be familiar to any Mexican Catholic.
The chairs are arranged, as in any church, in
congregational fashion. The podium functions
as a kind of altar...Sacred texts hanging on the
meeting room walls add to the overall religious
imagery."

So, Brandes said, "To join AA in working-class
Mexico City does not mean abandoning one's
religious tradition. It means adapting it to
the circumstances at hand."

He theorizes that the growth of AA membership
in Mexico is due, in part, to more villagers
heading to urban centers in search of work.
Among these migrants, many workers with drinking
problems turn to Alcoholics Anonymous groups as
substitutes for the familiar, small communities
they lost when they left rural villages or to
replace their drinking buddies.

Surprisingly, AA in Mexico City is anything
but anonymous, and no one seems to mind, Brandes
found. The small storefront meetings he attended
were interrupted by small children racing in
to chase dogs or retrieve balls, and neighbors
looking for each other. Members routinely keep
the meeting entrance open, and passersby can
easily overhear what is said inside, Brandes
said.

This open identification of AA members is
probably the most dramatic difference between
the organization in Mexico and the United
States, he said.

While Brandes still is uncertain about the
effectiveness of AA, he said he did become
"a true Triple A, or Admirer of Alcoholics
Anonymous," in that he held every one of the
members of his group in high esteem and
developed affection for them.

Marcelo Suarez-Orozco, co-director of the
Harvard (University) Immigration Project,
praised "Staying Sober in Mexico City." He
said it likely will become not only the
standard reference on the cultural study of
  alcoholism in Mexico, but also "one of the
best overall social science contributions to
the study of Mexican culture in the last
50 years."

Brandes, a social cultural anthropologist, has
spent more than 30 years in the study of Latin
American and European ethnography, writing
about peasant society and culture, folklore,
symbolism, ritual and religion, as well as
food and drink.

Brandes' future projects will include a study
of Latino AA or 12-step groups in the United
States, as he assesses the impact of migration
on drinking patterns and treatment strategies.
Brandes also is engaged in a long-term study
of the Day of the Dead.

###

I was just reading the lastest copy of Marking -
Your Archives Interchange Vol. 26 No. 3 - Winter
2006 about the final resting place of Bertha
Bamford - Bill W.'s teenage girlfriend.

The author of the article - William W., from
New Albany, Indiana states that she is buried
in the Jeffersonville Cemetery, near her parents.

[See photo on page three.]

As I am writing this on Jan.24 - the date Bill
Wilson died, I was reading the Memorial issue
of the Grapevine dated March 1971 as I am
preparing to do a brief talk at our local AA
meeting on the life of Bill W. On page 14 of
that issue Bill discribes his great depression
following Bertha's death, in fact he writes:

"I used to sneak out and go to the graveyard
where the girl was buried, sitting there for
hours, convinced that my whole life had utterly
collapsed."

I wonder if someone could clarify for me how
Bill could leave his school in Manchester,
Vermont, and sit by a grave site for hours
in Jeffersonville, Indiana.

Gary

AA includes Carl Jung's exchanges with Bill W.
as part of its history.  There is also an
important letter where Jung gives his opinion
of the Oxford Group which I believe should be
included among the materials on the AA History
Lovers website, as what others think of AA and
its freedoms is important.


"The group confessions of sects like the Oxford
[Group] Movement are well known; also the cures
at Lourdes, which would be unthinkable without
an admiring public. Groups bring about not only
astonishing cures but equally astonishing
psychic changes and conversions precisely because
suggestibility is heightened ....

"But in view of the notorious tendencies of
people to lean on others and cling to various
-isms instead of finding security and
independence in themselves, which is the prime
requisite, there is danger that the individual
will equate the group with father and mother
and so remain just as dependent, insecure and
infantile as before ....

For what we are dealing with is only the passing
and morally weakening effects of suggestion
(that is why medical psychotherapists, with
few exceptions, have long since abandoned the
use of suggestion therapy).

C. G. Jung, letter to Hans A. Illing,
January 26, 195570

My background is in archives, not history, and
that makes life easier for us so involved because
we do not have to furnish opinions. A lot of
people were involved in the purchase and
restoration of Dr. Bob's. Indeed anyone who
has ever made a contribution to them (even me,
though a small one) can take credit for this.

What should not be overlooked is the original
sales agreement was signed by Gail La C., the
current Akron AA Archivist, on October 5th, 1984.
Her rear end was on the line for many thousands
of dollars at that point and, while she had
promises that she would not have to come up
with (all of) the money, there are few of us
that would have the courage (and the credit
rating?) to make that big a commitment. Her
contribution should neither be forgotten nor
minimized.

I had letters re this deal from Wesley P., he
& old Sherry shared a podium or so back in the
late '70s-80s.  Nice fellow, well known here
in Texas and respected as a good member and
speaker, though best known for his efforts with
BB studies; we visited a lot in Colorado and
New Orleans during those Internationals, he
visited in Dallas a few times and we'd talk.

sherry

Any questions about Wesley can be addressed to
John W. as he is Wesley's oldest sponsee:

JWill60366@...
JWill60366 at aol.com

<<Does anyone know more about Wesley putting up
his own money to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he
was paid back? >>

I have a letter from Wesley that I received in
July 1985 thanking me for my donation to the
Founders Foundation. At that time, Wesley signed
himself as "Public Relations Servant" and included
a copy of his Concordance, which I have used
many, many times over the years. He was quite
a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. There was
also a drawing for a 1st edition, 1st printing
of the Big Book as a fund raiser.

Mike Barns




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From: "Fiona Dodd" <fionadodd@...>
(fionadodd at eircom.net)

I received the following communiqué from the
Archivist of the Avon South Intergroup on the
passing of Frieda M-M.

On a personal note, the Archivist's parents
were stationed in Washington D.C. during 1941.
(Her brother was born in the Bethesda Military
Hospital two days before Pearl Harbour) There
was a lot of entertaining and inspiration
offered by the British Ambassador and her mother
used to tell of the parties held at the Embassy.
When her mother herself got sober in Alcoholics
Anonymous in Bath in the Eighties, which was
not long before her mother died in 1992, it was
realised that John and Frieda who were Butler
and Housekeeper to the British Ambassador in
Washington would have undoubtedly served her
parents their drinks on many occasions! It was
there that the seeds of her mother's alcoholism
were sown and it was in the Bath group which
John started in 1955 that her mother got sober
twenty-five years later!

John M. served as the first sponsor to Travers
of Bristol until his death in 1964.

Fiona
_ _ _ _ _ _

   Frieda M-M

   R.I.P.
_ _ _ _ _ _

Only today did the news come of the passing of
Frieda M-M who died on 17th December, 2005.

Frieda was John M's wife and aided all his
efforts to establish Alcoholics Anonymous in
the West Country when they left their employment
with His Excellency the British Ambassador in
Washington and returned to England in 1947 with
his redundancy pay of £100 to seek employment
and carry THIS message. In 1948 John held the
first meeting known in the West Country at
Mickleton, Glos.

John did obtain employment and worked diligently
and in 1955 helped open the Bath Group, along
with Frank HS, Teddy and Joe G (Croydon).

Travers of Bristol (1959) used to describe the
meeting in the front parlour of Frieda's
hairdressing salon being conducted amongst the
old fashioned driers. He also used to tell
of John and Freida's kindness to him in his
own early days.

After hearing much about Al-Anon taking shape
in Canada and the United States, in 1955
Frieda began Al-Anon in Bath (believed to
be the first Al-Anon meeting in England).

John died the day after returning from the
National Convention at Clacton in 1964. Frieda
eventually returned to her native Berne,
Switzerland and while already not young she
began Al-Anon in that city. There was a report
to the Intergroup in the mid-Nineties about an
interview held with Frieda during a visit she
made to her nephews and nieces in the West
Country. She was a most energetitc and charming
lady and kept in close touch over the years with
the editors of the journal, 'Bristol Fashion'.

Her life story is in the Archives. What an
amazing lady, travelling all over the world,
married to John and founding Al-Anon in more
than one country! She would have been a 100
years of age, if not more, when she died!
Surely, she was the last of our founding
members.

The Archivist, Avon South Intergroup, Bristol.

Have you checked with the Chicago Area Service
Office @ 312/346-1475  ??

The Area Code may have changed to 773, (it's
been a long time since I've been in touch with
them).

Hank Groat
Piney Flats, TN.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Does anyone know the address of the first Mustard
Seed Group location?

I know it was in a basement apartment, near Astor
and Division, in Chicago, but I'm really curious
about the exact address.

Thanks.

Getting feedback about Dr Bob and some amusing
anecdotes about Him, Kay and Oscar. Does anyone
know more about Wesley putting up his own money
to buy Dr.Bob's House and how he was paid back?
This man needs to be given the credit he deserves
if what I am hearing is true.

Having fun in AA,
Shakey Mike Gwirtz

See you in Phoenix Sept.6-9 for the
11th Nat'l Archives Workshop



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike,

You may want to be looking into the story of
Wesley Parrish (Florida) who spearheaded the
movement to purchase and make Dr. Bob's Home
available to all of us, also, two folks around
today that you should interview are Akron
Intergroup's Archivist Gail L. and Don C.,
current Chairman of the Board at Dr. Bob's
House, they were both involved early on, and
should have some very interesting stories to tell.
I imagine that you know Ray G. too, Dr. Bob's
House's Archivist, a lot of materials and
wonderful photographs ar available there.

Dr. Bob's daughter Sue stayed at the York St.
address until the end of her life.

Kay Stewart (Grand Dame of Akron's Flame
Breakfast Group) was active until the end of
her life, serving as a Vice-Chairman on the
Board of the Akron Intergroup Council in her
last years and speaking at the Intergroup's
Anniversary Dinner just before her passing.

Her accomplishments were considerable and I am
sure that her story (and probably that lead) is
available on tape (try contacting the Akron
Intergroup Archives...they are working now to
put together "Voices from the Past" to be
utilized in conjunction with the Archives page
at the AkronAA.org. website and they have an
aggressive program going to digitize remaining
materials for back up use while the originals
are preserved.

Oscar Futrell was the first man in Alcoholics
Annonymous that I ever met...in the Summit
County Jail in 1971...he was quite candid...
I distictly remember him telling me "I believe
that you are an Alcoholic... this program will
save your life...If you don't want what we've
got then go die damn you!!!"

For a long time I never trusted Oscar, whenever
I saw him he was either in a uniform or a suit...
(that same check Jacket in which he apperars in
so many photographs...even at Dr. Bob's graveside
monument with Bill W.) I trust Oscar today...
that is what I have come to understand...

Oscar was sponsored by Dr. Bob and was a great
friend of Bill Wilson..I've been told it was
Oscar that Drove Bill around on his visits to
Akron.

What he "tried" to carry to me was the straight
message of Alcoholic's Annonymous although I
did not understand that then,  Guess I was
more interesterd in the doughnuts (glazed),
the "ready-made" cigarettes available at the
meeting and the packs of Bugler Tobacco you
could get if you asked for it...to take back
to the range.

I think the most important thing was perhaps
the fact that going to the meeting allowed me
to communicate with the other inmates from the
different floors of the jail...yes communication
was the great thing then and subtly? I began
to get the message.

This is hearsay, but my Sponsor (who was for many
years the Chairman of the Founders Foundation)
explained to me that at the end of his life
Sgt. Oscar Futrell suffered from alzheimers,
or something similar, and that it was very
difficult and sad when people tried to take
him to meetings.

If you want to contact me directly I will do
what I can to help you....

Be a good guy and keep you powder dry,

Woody in Akron

I belong to a very old AA group and am trying
to figure out how old it is, and any other
information on this group that has been meeting
since at least 1940.

The group is now called the Top of the Hill
Group and meets on Monday nights off Southwest
Highway [Route 7].

Thanx in kind and service

dan babs