Good Day and 24 happy hours everybody, ¿does anybody know where Jack
Alexander had born? The date? If any, please share the information to
this alcoholic anonymous.
Thanks a lot.

Jaime F. Maliachi Pedrote

57 85 68 00   57 85 68 26
fax 57 85 68 44



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

When you look at the Amazon site, you can check the table of
contents of the book.  The source pointing to p 192 is in a chapter
titled "Closed Head Injury" by a David I. Graham.  So the chapter is
not even by Herbert Spencer.  Maybe Mr. Graham metions the quote,
but I doubt if he cites its source as anything other than Herbert
Spencer or the Big Book.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/

The bigger question I had was how much influence did the ideas of
Herbert Spencer have on Bill Wilson.

By the way Herbert Spencer was a big influence on Henri Bergson who
in turn had a big influence on William James.

Mary C Darrah's excellent biography "Sister Ignatia" (pgs 128-129) states
that Bill wrote to Dr Bob that he thought Anne (Dr Bob's wife) should write
the chapter. Anne declined. Darrah goes on to state that a discrepancy
exists in comparing NY and Akron archive records regarding the authorship of
"To Wives." At the end of her commentary, Darrah reports that Marie B wrote
a draft that Bill W revised. I presume this was premised on the Akron
archives records.



Other sources state that Bill W wrote the chapter:



(1) Lois W's in "Lois Remembers" (pg 114) states that Bill wrote the chapter
although she suggested to him that she should write it.



(2) Francis Hartigan in "Bill W" (pgs 114-115) cites Lois as being far
angrier than she described herself in "Lois Remembers" and also states that
Bill W wrote the chapter. Hartigan was Lois W's personal secretary and
confidant.



(3) "Dr Bob and the Good Oldtimers" states "Bill himself wrote the chapter
that came to be called 'To Wives' and Marie B, the wife of a member from
Cleveland, wrote a personal account for the story section of the first
edition."



More sources may comment on the matter, however, barring revelation of the
details in the Akron archive's "indication" the weight of evidence leans to
concluding that Bill W was the author of the chapter rather than Marie B.



But I'd still be very curious to learn what is in the Akron archives data.
Does anyone know?



Cheers

Arthur

   _____

From: Diz Titcher [mailto:rtitcher@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:44 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives



In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@...>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives


>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing."
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>





   _____

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi

Just checked with the webmaster of the link via e-mail.

He replied that the cited source is still not verified.

I'd buy that book if I was sure the quotation is in it.

Sure don't want to pay a $225 tuition to learn that it's not though.

Cheers

Arthur



From:  "Tom P." <tomper99@y...
<http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AAHistoryLovers/post?postID=4Ak-8lWjaa
SZYeCpCv8eZorpjTVULZwo0AzMkETZClojkxB8LhiEcexINAHDuCosf0p9lmIKO1qr-hhBjw> >
Date:  Thu Jan 27, 2005  1:16 am
Subject:  Re: Herbert Spencer

"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet. If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
but I don't. And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear Nancy,

My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in
Bombay India in April 1990. I was going through the
brief biograpies of the authors of the stories and I
notices that you did not have the name or accurate
sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words"
from the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends
involved in service in India and am forwarding you
some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots
started a meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but
it did not survive the war. Till 1957 a few
individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early
1957, a Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to
the Candian Embassy at New Delhi. Prior to his coming
to India, Charley wrote to our co-founder, Bill W.
informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A.
activities, and if there are any contacts there, that
I can get in touch with, I would surely welcome the
opportunity". The reply from General Service Office,
N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti
M. to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence
indicates that Charley M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th
January 1957 and was able to locate Sylvia and
Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to
those with a drinking problem.

The FIRST Indian who responded to the advertisemet was
a schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harold
Mathias, who called on Charley M. personally in New
Delhi. Harry M. spent some days with Charley at Delhi
learning about the disease of alcoholism and the
program and spiritual principles of Alcoholics
Anonymous. He returned to Mumbai armed with the
literature given to him and stopped drinking from 5th
May 1957 till his premature sober death on 5th June,
1967. On his return to Bombay he twelve-stepped John
G., Ignatius P., Tony M., and Vithal P., who were
(are) some of the pioneers in India.

A letter from G.S.O. New York to Charley M. dated 5th
March 1957 saying "Thanks so much for your letter
dated 24th February 1957 and the enclosed registration
card for the New Delhi Group". This indicates that an
A.A. group was started in New Delhi in early February
1957.

The efforts of Harry M. in spreading the message were
indeed stupendous, and by November, 1957, after about
six months, a small group was already functioning in
Mumbai. A letter from G.S.O. New York to Harry M.
dated 17th March 1958, discussed several issues and
enclosed such literature as "The Structure and
Services of AA", and also material on "A.A. and
Hospital Co-operation".  Within less than a year the
A.A. group in Mumbai had become active. In the A.A.
Grapevine of October 1958, there was a two page report
of A.A. in India written by Charley M. The report
says that the largest concentration of A.A. members
was in Mumbai mentioning the figure as 23. The A.A.
directory card of December 1958 records that A.A. in
India consisted of 48 members, of whom Mumbai had 30,
Delhi 7, Calcutta 5 and one or two in other cities.

AUTHOR OG LIFE SAVING WORDS
Another pioneer of the A.A. movement outside Mumbai
was Lieutenant Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment
of the Indian Army. He to responded to the newspaper
advertisemnt, and had the opportunity to come in
contact with Charley M. through correspondence. After
receiving literature from Charleyin the mail, Trevor
K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his
death on 31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K.
appears in the BIG BOOK entitled - "Life-saving
words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had the good
fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M. for
the first time, almost a month after the sobered up
through the mail. Charley suggested that he register
as a "loner" due to his army postings. Trevor's
service postings took him to new places in India and
he became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in
India sowing the seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore,
Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

In Mary Darrah's book on Sister Ignatia, she backs that up. To my knowledge,
Bill never said he wrote it but he did edit the chapter.
Diz T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <ny-aa@...>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:31 PM
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] To Wives


>
> The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
> the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
> "To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
> story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
> been found to support that?
> ___________________________________________
>
> An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
> Cleveland, Ohio
> p. 378 in 1st edition
>
> Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
> Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.
>
> There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
> the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
> and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
> wrote it.
>
> She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
> should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
> misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
> and good fortune because we found a new way of living."
>
> Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
> to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
> and their son.
>
> When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
> soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
> to give their problems to God.
>
> She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
> problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
> When we live with God we want for nothing."
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Dear Nancy,

I may have inadvertantly caused some confusion when I
sent in the email regarding Trevor K., the author of
"Life Saving Words" in the 3rd Edition of the Big
Book. I may have given the impression that Trevor K.
was the founding member of AA in India. In actual fact
the FIRST Indian who sobered up in response to the
Canadian Charley Marshall's advertisemet was a
schoolmaster from Bombay (Mumbai) called Harry
Mathais, to be soon followed by John G., Ignatius P.,
Tony M., and Vithal P. The author of the story Trevor
K. INDEPENDENTLY saw the advertisement, wrote to
Charlie in Delhi, received literature and sobered up
as the result of studying the literature and later had
the opportunity to meet Charley. I apologise for any
confusion caused and am sending you a revised email.

Thank you for letting me share,
Roy T.




__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

"Nov 2003 Final Answer?? has come that this quote is from his
Herbert Spencer
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

  We are Verifying this Nov 16 2003
Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido California for sending me this Info!!"

This is from  http://www.aabibliography.com/hspencer.html

Nov 2003 has come and gone and no verification yet.  If I had $225.00
I would order the 3d Edition from Amazon
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0340691891/102-0608968-
7623353
  but I don't.  And I have had enough trauma in my life I do not need
to read about any more anyway.

Tom P.








--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Bill Lash <barefootbill@o...>
wrote:
> This just in.  Can anyone verify this?
>
> Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
> "The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
> Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192
>
> Special Thanks to Dave Howard
> of Escondido CA for sending this.
>
> Just Love,
> Barefoot Bill
>
>
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@p...]
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
>   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
>   I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were
taken
>   from an unpublished letter.
>
>   any truth to that?
>
>   Rob W.
>   Baltimore
>
>   >>> ArtSheehan@m... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>
>
>   Hi Nicholas
>
>
>
>   In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd
printing
>   of the
>   1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
>   to
>   "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
>   steps" was
>   changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
>   changes to
>   Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
>   appendix I
>   then, not appendix II).
>
>
>
>   The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought
that they
>   had
>   to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to
the
>   one
>   Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
>   spiritual
>   experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James
called
>   the
>   "educational variety."
>
>
>
>   The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
>   contain
>   the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the
appendix
>   until
>   mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd
printing
>   of
>   the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the
term
>   "those
>   steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
>   originally
>   appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
>   Concept" by Ray
>   C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
>   C's story
>   was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the
quotation was
>   added
>   to the appendix.
>
>
>
>   The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
>   written
>   work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the
quotation
>   (a
>   few works have been cited but not verified).
>
>
>
>   I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had
much, if
>   any,
>   influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis
to the
>   last
>   sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
>   mindedness are
>   the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."
>
>
>
>   Cheers
>
>   Arthur
>
>
>
>   PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
>   "survival of
>   the fittest."
>
>
>
>     _____
>
>   From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@y...]
>   Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
>   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer
>
>
>
>
>   How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson?  Was he
>   mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or
was
>   his work more thouroughly studied?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

naomi,

well, my sponsor taught me to ID my self (in any open meeting) as:

     "My name is Steve, and I'm a member of Alcoholics Anonymous..."

he showed me a paragraph in the BBook forwords that came from the first edition
where Bill wrote:

     "When writing or speaking publicly about alcoholism, we urge each of our
Fellowship to omit his personal name, designating himself instead as 'a member
of Alcoholics Anonymous.' "

this is on page xiii of the fourth edition.

i do refer to myself as "I'm Steve and i'm an alcoholic" at our Home Group
business meetings or at any closed meeting i might attend.

this is just the way we do it here in Casper, Wyoming.

or at least this is the way i do it here in town.

thanks, and maybe i'll see you on the Great Highway down the road!

i remain,

love&peace, steve a.  dos: April 24, 1998
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Naomi Blankenship
   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 10:45 AM
   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: I am an alcoholic?



   Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

   I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
   of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
   started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
   on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
   name.  On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
   At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

   I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
   have yet to come across here I picked up the note from.  Then again
   it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too.  My sponsor told me
   long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
   to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

   I'll keep looking for the reference.  Thanks for letting me sharing
   and sharing in my sobriety.

   Naomi




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This just in.  Can anyone verify this?

Herbert Spencer quote is from his book
"The Pathology of Trauma" 2nd Edition,
Edited by J.K.Mason, page 192

Special Thanks to Dave Howard
of Escondido CA for sending this.

Just Love,
Barefoot Bill



   -----Original Message-----
   From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@...]
   Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:15 PM
   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer


   I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
   from an unpublished letter.

   any truth to that?

   Rob W.
   Baltimore

   >>> ArtSheehan@... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

   Hi Nicholas



   In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
   of the
   1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
   to
   "spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
   steps" was
   changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
   changes to
   Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
   appendix I
   then, not appendix II).



   The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
   had
   to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
   one
   Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
   spiritual
   experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
   the
   "educational variety."



   The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
   contain
   the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
   until
   mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
   of
   the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
   "those
   steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
   originally
   appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
   Concept" by Ray
   C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
   C's story
   was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
   added
   to the appendix.



   The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
   written
   work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
   (a
   few works have been cited but not verified).



   I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
   any,
   influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
   last
   sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
   mindedness are
   the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



   Cheers

   Arthur



   PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
   "survival of
   the fittest."



     _____

   From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@...]
   Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
   To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




   How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson?  Was he
   mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
   his work more thouroughly studied?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I had the same thought about the source of the quotation - that it might
come from a piece of correspondence rather than a published work.



A reputable web site has had a posting for over a year now asking anyone who
might be aware of the source of the quotation to please identify it. Some
citations were sent in but they haven’t been verified.



Searches through web sites specializing in quotations, either will not have
the quotation in their data base or cite the Big Book as its source (not
surprising since there have been so many Big Books distributed).



Arthur



   _____

From: Rob White [mailto:rwhite@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:15 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer



I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



   _____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson?  Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








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/S=:HM/A=2532114/rand=773622983>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The "Biographies of the Authors" says there is indication in
the Akron archives that the first draft of the Big Book chapter
"To Wives" was written by Marie Bray who wrote the First Edition
story "An Alcoholic's Wife." That sounds interesting. What has
been found to support that?
___________________________________________

An Alcoholic's Wife - Marie Bray
Cleveland, Ohio
p. 378 in 1st edition

Marie, a non-alcoholic, was the wife of Walter Bray ("The Backslider").
Walter first joined A.A. in September 1935.

There is indication in the Akron archives that Marie may have written
the first draft of "To Wives," which Bill then edited. But "Dr. Bob
and the Good Oldtimers" and "Lois Remembers" both state that Bill
wrote it.

She started her brief story by saying "I have the misfortune, or I
should say the good fortune, of being an alcoholic's wife. I say
misfortune because of the worry and grief that goes with drinking,
and good fortune because we found a new way of living."

Marie worried constantly about her husband's drinking, went to work
to pay the bills, covered his bad checks, and took care of their home
and their son.

When he stopped drinking she thought their problems were over, but
soon found she had to work on her own defects and that they both had
to give their problems to God.

She ended her story by saying "My husband and I now talk over our
problems and trust in a Divine Power. We have now started to live.
When we live with God we want for nothing."

I heard someone chairing a meeting say that Spencer's words were taken
from an unpublished letter.

any truth to that?

Rob W.
Baltimore

>>> ArtSheehan@... 01/26/05 03:21PM >>>

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing
of the
1st edition Big Book. The term "spiritual experience" was changed
to
"spiritual awakening" and the term "as the result of these
steps" was
changed to "as the result of those steps." Along with the wording
changes to
Step 12, the appendix, "Spiritual Experience" was added (it was
appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they
had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the
one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most
spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called
the
"educational variety."



The initial version of the "Spiritual Experience" appendix did not
contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix
until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing
of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term
"those
steps" back to "these steps." The quotation attributed to Spencer
originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled "An Artist's
Concept" by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book's dust jacket). Ray
C's story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was
added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no
written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation
(a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if
any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the
last
sentences of the appendix that "Willingness, honesty and open
mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable."



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term
"survival of
the fittest."



   _____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson?  Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Nicholas



In March 1941, the wording of Step 12 was changed in the 2nd printing of the
1st edition Big Book. The term “spiritual experience” was changed to
“spiritual awakening” and the term “as the result of these steps” was
changed to “as the result of those steps.” Along with the wording changes to
Step 12, the appendix, “Spiritual Experience” was added (it was appendix I
then, not appendix II).



The Big Book revisions were done because many members thought that they had
to have a sudden and spectacular spiritual experience similar to the one
Bill had in Towns Hospital. The appendix emphasized that most spiritual
experiences were of the type that the psychologist William James called the
“educational variety.”



The initial version of the “Spiritual Experience” appendix did not contain
the quotation attributed to Spencer. It was not added to the appendix until
mid-1955 when the 2nd edition Big Book was published. The 2nd printing of
the 2nd edition Big Book changed Step 12 again, to restore the term “those
steps” back to “these steps.” The quotation attributed to Spencer originally
appeared in a 1st edition Big Book story titled “An Artist’s Concept” by Ray
C (who also designed the 1st edition Big Book’s dust jacket). Ray C’s story
was not carried over to the 2nd edition Big Book and the quotation was added
to the appendix.



The Spencer quote might not be an accurate attribution. So far, no written
work by Spencer can be positively confirmed as containing the quotation (a
few works have been cited but not verified).



I doubt that, other than the attributed quotation, Spencer had much, if any,
influence on Bill W at all. The quotation superbly adds emphasis to the last
sentences of the appendix that “Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are
the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.”



Cheers

Arthur



PS - By the way, Spencer is credited with originating the term “survival of
the fittest.”



   _____

From: Nicholas J. Hernandez [mailto:bankndraw@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 AM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Herbert Spencer




How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson?  Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?








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phealth/S=1705237878:HM/EXP=1106848870/A=2532114/R=2/SIG=12kcu6pau/*http:/cl
k.atdmt.com/NFX/go/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=1106762470184944>


<http://view.atdmt.com/NFX/view/yhxxxnfx0020000014nfx/direct/01/&time=110676
2470184944>



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How influential was Herbert Spencer on Bill Wilson?  Was he
mentioned in the appendix II just to prompt open-mindedness or was
his work more thouroughly studied?

Hey there alcoholic Naomi here,

I have a note in my BB, with mention of Mort J., that says the custom
of IDing oneself as alcoholic was besides giving your name wasn't
started until the 50s in Southern CA. I know from going to meetings
on the West Coast that they start with alcoholic first then the
name.  On the East Coast they say their name first then alcoholic.
At least that has been my experience of nearly 18 years.

I have read a lot of program lit and other historical accounts so I
have yet to come across here I picked up the note from.  Then again
it could have been in a Joe & Charlie Study too.  My sponsor told me
long ago that saying alcoholic first is because it is more important
to remember that I am one than it is to know my name.

I'll keep looking for the reference.  Thanks for letting me sharing
and sharing in my sobriety.

Naomi

It's probably simpler to combine these two postings into a single message:

"Stephanie Burgess" <SBURGESS2004@...> wrote in and said: "Stools and
Bottles is written by the same person who wrote The Little Red Book & Our
Devilish Alcoholic Personalities. It comes out of the Nicolette Group in
Minnesota, and was published originally by ?Cobb Webster as I seem to remember.
Since my copies are in storage in Michigan and I am in New Mexico, I cannot
verify the publisher."



James Bliss <james.bliss@...> wrote in and said: "For what it is worth,
the page at:  http://www.martydee.com/AA/archives/000825.html states: 'Ed
Webster (who later wrote Stools and Bottles and Our Devilish Alcoholic
Personalities) was probably the principal author.' Talking about The Little Red
Book."

To this let me add just a few of notes of my own:

When "The Little Red Book" first came out, the short title was simply "The
Twelve Steps." The long title was "An Interpretation of THE TWELVE STEPS of the
ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS PROGRAM." It had a dark burgundy cover, and therefore
eventually came to be referred to by AA people as "the little red book," which
was eventually used as the official title.

It said on the title page of the first edition (1946) that it was published by
"Coll-Webb Co., Publishers" in Minneapolis. This simply meant that Barry
COLL-ins and Ed WEB-ster paid for printing it themselves. There was not really
any commercial publishing firm called Coll-Webb. Ed Webster and Barry Collins
did it under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group in Minneapolis. It was based
on the beginners' lessons which Ed Webster had been giving at the Nicollet Group
for some time. These were the earliest known AA beginners' classes, on the basis
of our current knowledge.

Jack H., the AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, who has all of Ed Webster's
papers, says that Ed was the one who did all the writing on all four books (The
Little Red Book, Stools and Bottles, Barroom Reveries, and Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities). Barry Collins seems to have helped pay for getting The
Little Red Book published, Jack says, and that sort of thing, but not to have
been involved in the writing itself.

Well, the one exception to the statement that Ed did all the writing on all four
books, is that Dr. Bob sent a lot of comments to Ed as he published the various
early editions of The Little Red Book, so in one sense we could say that Ed
Webster was the primary author of The Little Red Book, but that Dr. Bob also
played a part in writing it.

If you find a copy of Barroom Reveries anywhere, this is a VERY rare book. Ed
intended it to be a book of AA humor, and it fell flat on its face, Jack says,
so it was never reprinted. The "first edition first printing" is the only
version of this book that exists, and there could not be many copies at all
surviving by this point.

                         Glenn Chesnut (South Bend)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dear John (and Victor),

Ed Webster (who lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota) published The Little Red Book
in 1946 under the sponsorship of the Nicollet Group. Ed had the help and support
of Dr. Bob, who gave numerous suggestions for wording various passages. That was
his most famous book, but Ed also wrote the book you were asking about, Stools
and Bottles (1955), and he also wrote Barroom Reveries (1958) and Our Devilish
Alcoholic Personalities (in 1970, just a year before his death). In various
places in the U.S. and Canada, Ed was the third most widely read A.A. author.

For more information see http://hindsfoot.org/redbk1.html

Jack H., an AA archivist from Scottsdale, Arizona, has all of Ed Webster's
papers, and knows an extraordinary amount about him.  We need someone to write a
biography of Ed.  Jack's material would be invaluable for that.

Bill Pittman at the Hazelden Archives also knows a good deal.  See the Foreword
which Bill wrote for the Fiftieth Anniversary Edition of the Little Red Book for
more about Ed Webster.

Ed went to the famous Founders Day Camping Trips in Minnesota held from 1944 to
1947 (see the photo of Dr. Bob holding a fish he caught on one of these trips in
Dr. Bob and the Good Oldtimers) and was close to many of the early AA leaders
from places like Chicago, Detroit, Toledo, and Winnipeg.  He was especially
close to Dr. Bob, and Dr. Bob warmly supported Ed in his writing and publishing.

                         Glenn Chesnut (South Bend IN)

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@...> wrote:

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" wrote:

I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles". I was wonder if
anyone new who the author was and when it was first publish.
Thank you in advance
  Victor F.
Austin, Texas

i have looked and the listed author is anonymous this is from review listed on
retail sites,it might worth a try to try some a.a.autors bios to see if it is
listed to any one



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

HI Victor.  We at www.archivesinternational.org have a picture of Ed Webster
along with Barry Collins those two are the authors of that book and a few others
you may recognize. Take a look we also have much more information on both of
them and will be putting it on out site soon. THX! Corey F.

john pizzamiglio <flogging_god@...> wrote:
--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles".   I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
i have looked and the listed author is anonymous  this is from review
listed on retail sites,it might  worth a try to try some a.a.autors
bios to see if it is listed to any one





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello everyone,

Thanks to Mel and others who helped me build an archive for the
kalamazoo Michigan area--it is now safely in the hands of the current
Delegate.

I have moved to Mount Pleasant Michigan and am at it again...if
anyone has any info please pass along, I'm starting from near nothing
here.

Also I've recently heard of a recording of Glenn Cofee sp? in 1969 in
Indiana at a conference--if anyone has any info on him or a Don
Stevens from Michigan that would help too...Thanks a bunch

Steve

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor" <victhor90@y...>
wrote:
>
> I was looking for info on the book titled "Stools and Bottles".   I
> was wonder if anyone new who the author was and when it was first
> publish.
>
> Thank you in advance
>
> Victor F.
> Austin, Texas
  i have looked and the listed author is anonymous  this is from review
  listed on retail sites,it might  worth a try to try some a.a.autors
  bios to see if it is listed to any one

On Jan 25, 2005, at 6:40, hrlywolfiz wrote:

> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
>  addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
>  meeting.

It's fairly common here in Honolulu, in some meetings, to read the
beginning of "More About Alcoholism" in the 3rd Chapter. In the history
meeting (see below), we read the preface to "Pass It On," where it
explains how the book got its name.

Arkie

PS & FWIW:  I attend two meetings which have slightly "off the beaten
path" reading formats:

1. Thursday noon, "AA History 101."  We read from the
conference-approved histories; we're currently reading "Pass It On."
It's a new meeting, gaining popularity. Not geared at newcomers,
obviously. The way I position it is that I gain a greater appreciation
for my Program by knowing its history; just as I understand my country
better by knowing its history.

2. Friday "High Nooners." Having completed reading all the stories in
the 4th edition, the group purchased several copies of "Experience,
Strength & Hope," the conference-approved collection of all the 1st,
2nd and 3rd Ed. stories no longer appearing. We read a story a week,
and it's wonderful seeing some of the old stories again or coming upon
stories for the first time.

Arkie

The title of the story you are looking for is in the
Second Edition 499 - 508

THERE'S NOTHING THE MATTER WITH ME!


That's what the man said as he hocked his shoes for
the price of two bottles of Sneaky Pete. He drank
bayzo, canned heat, and shoe polish. He did a
phoney routine in A.A. for a while. And then he got
hold of the real thing.


I found it in a search on silkworth.net.  Enjoy!

Paula Barnette


=====
in the right formation, the lifting power of many wings can achieve twice the
distance of any bird flying alone.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

The quote is from "There's Nothing the Matter with Me!" (page 499 in
the Second Edition of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous).  The
story is in the section "They Nearly Lost All," and the complete quote
reads:

"That taught me the most important lesson I have ever learned in my
entire life. That is that A.A. doesn't need me, but I need A.A. Very
desperately, very sincerely, very humbly. Not all at once, because you
can't get it all at once, just a little bit at a time. They told me,
"You've got to get out and work a little; you've got to give." They
told me that giving was living, and that living was loving, and loving
was God. And you don't have to worry about God, because He's sitting
right in front of your eyes.
        You get just a little sobriety, and you get just a little
humility. Not much, just a little. Not the humility of sackcloth and
ashes, but the humility of a man who's glad he's alive and can serve.
You get just a little tolerance, not too much, but just enough to sit
and listen to the other guy."

(quoted text is from page 507 of the Second Edition of the Big Book of
Alcoholics Anonymous)

p2

--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, "hrlywolfiz" <wolfdancer@c...>
wrote:
>
> A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
> of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
> important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
> need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely.  It has
> something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
> how to pray you learn a little about that too.
>
> Can anyone tell me the title of that story?  It seems different
> groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.
>
> I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
> addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
> meeting.
>
> thanks
> Sheila H

A couple of groups around my town read an excerpt from a story out
of the second edition(?)that starts with something like: The most
important lesson I have every learned in my life is that AA doesn't
need me, that I need AA. Very humbly, very sincerely.  It has
something about sack cloth and ashes in it and if you have forgotten
how to pray you learn a little about that too.

Can anyone tell me the title of that story?  It seems different
groups have different versions, and I am wondering what is correct.

I am also looking for comments or ideas what other groups read in
addition to "How it works" and the "12 Traditions" when starting the
meeting.

thanks
Sheila H

Hi,
   I appreciate Arthur's observations here.  I have occasionally pulled up
Stanton Peele's website in the hope of finding him saying something good
about AA, but he rarely does.
   I do think being an alcoholic gives us a good understanding of the nature
of compulsion.  I am not a compulsive gambler, for example, but in knowing
how the first drink affected me, I can well understand how some gamblers can
be swept into insane, irrational behavior after experiencing or expecting a
win.
   Mel Barger
~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@accesst ~~~~~~~~ Mel Barger melb@...
----- Original Message -----
From: "ArtSheehan" <ArtSheehan@...>
To: <AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:42 PM
Subject: RE: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some


>
> Hi
>
> I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
> academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
> perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.
>
> For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there
> will
> be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
> dishonest).
>
> I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
> non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
> with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
> be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
> when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
> contrarian theories.
>
> Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
> debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He
> asserts
> that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
> somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
> founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
> later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
> months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.
>
> I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
> disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
> are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
> Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
> Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
> and telling Bill to go start a meeting.
>
> We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
> to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
> something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
> doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating
> illness
> and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
> illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
> clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
> spiritual living.
>
> Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta
> Sieberling,
> T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
> Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs
> and
> Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
> experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
> alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
> afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.
>
> Cheers
>
> Arthur
>
>  _____
>
> From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@...]
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it.  I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do.  As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving.  Attitude does
> not cause this craving.  It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>
>
> --- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>
> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
>> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
>> others' awareness if pretty pitiful.  I know some of these people,
>> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
> some of
>> us.  Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
> supporters
>> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
> can
>> verify what they say.  I know you are not interested in my
> biography,
>> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
>> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
>> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
> ditches
>> today.
>>
>> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
>> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
> 9th. She
>> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
> We
>> will miss her.
>>
>> ernie kurtz
>>
>> MARCH 10-12, 2005
>> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION:  SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
>> PERSPECTIVES:  A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>>
>> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>>
>> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
> alcohol
>> problems.  However, until recently little scientific research has
>> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
> related or
>> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
>> prevention, and recovery.  This three-day conference presents the
> latest
>> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
> and
>> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
> and
>> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
> full
>> day applied workshops.  In addition, breakout sessions will address
>> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
>> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
>> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>>
>> Keynote Speakers:
>> .      Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
> Center,
>> University of Washington:  "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
> of
>> Addictive Behaviors"
>> .      Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
> at the
>> Methodist Theological School in Ohio:  "Spiritual Roots of
> Addiction and
>> Recovery"
>>
>> Other Presenters:
>> .      Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
> Berkeley:  "The Good,
>> the Religious, and the Spiritual:  The Same?"
>> .      Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
> University:  "Explaining the
>> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
>> .      Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City:  "What's
> God Got to
>> Do With It?  A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
> African
>> American Youth"
>> .      Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan:  "Six-
> Month
>> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
>> .      Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University:  "Eating
>> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
>> .      Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden:  "The
> Spiritual
>> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
>> Sweden:  The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
> in
>> Addiction Research"
>>
>> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
>> .      Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
> Marlatt &
>> Jean Kristeller)
>> .      Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
> Kathy Goggin)
>>
>> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
>> .      Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
> Addiction (Tom
>> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
>> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
> may do
>> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
> workshop)
>>
>> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
> Education
>> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana.  The cost of the
>> three-day conference is $150  ($65 for full time students), and
> includes
>> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
>> reception on Thursday early evening.  You can also elect to attend
> only
>> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
> continental
>> breakfast, and lunch).  Continuing Education Credits are available
> for
>> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
> (see
>> the conference web-site for details).  For more information about
> the
>> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
> 2449.
>>
>> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
>> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
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>
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi

I'm not trying to start a chat room exchange but an announcement of an
academic conference presenting "scientific, theological and clinical
perspectives" related to "spirituality and addiction" merits discussion.

For every Stanton Peele (whom I view as intellectually arrogant) there will
be, thank God, a George Vaillant (who Peele slanders as intellectually
dishonest).

I would love to see a debate between Peele and Vaillant (who served as a
non-alcoholic Trustee on AA's General Service Board). How Vaillant's work
with "The Natural History of Alcoholism" (and its "revisited" edition) can
be branded as "intellectually dishonest" by Peele escapes me. Particularly
when Peele offers little more than personal conviction to support his own
contrarian theories.

Peele's "intellectual honesty" in trying to disassociate himself from the
debacle of early endorsement of Moderation Management is telling. He asserts
that the MM founder's conviction of 2 counts of drunken vehicular homicide
somehow rests on the shoulders of AA. After returning to drinking, MM's
founder left her creation and rejoined AA. Continuing to drink, 3 months
later, she caused the death of 2 innocents. Peele asserts her 3 drunken
months in AA demonstrates the Fellowship's shortcoming.

I guess one cannot rise to the level of intellectual giant unless one
disavows the concept that abstinence has a 100% success rate and all bets
are off if you succumb to the insanity of the 1st drink. However, our
Fellowship didn't get started by God showing up in Bill W's room in Towns
Hospital with 164 stone tablets, a dozen ash trays and 5 pounds of coffee
and telling Bill to go start a meeting.

We in AA should be careful to also avoid arrogance, particularly in regard
to the infamous "E word." The notion that someone must "experience"
something to understand it doesn't stand under scrutiny. An oncologist
doesn't have to experience cancer to understand it as a devastating illness
and define its treatment. A psychiatrist doesn't have to experience mental
illness to understand how fatal it can be unless treated. A member of the
clergy doesn't have to descend to depravity to understand the blessings of
spiritual living.

Dr Strong, Charles Towns, Dr Silkworth, Sam Shoemaker, Henrietta Sieberling,
T Henry and Clarace Williams, Norman Sheppard, Sister Ignatia, Dr Tiebout,
Father Ed Dowling, E M Jellinek and numerous non-alcoholic Board Chairs and
Trustees, et al, very much had "a clue" about alcoholism without having
experienced it. In the grand scheme of things, I respectfully suggest that
alcoholism does not rise to such a special esoteric status that only the
afflicted have "a clue" of what it is and how to deal with it.

Cheers

Arthur

   _____

From: Tom P. [mailto:tomper99@...]
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 10:02 PM
To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some




Thanks for the info Ernie.
I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
alcoholism unless he has experienced it.  I have experienced it and
the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
when I take that first drink; but believe me I do.  As we all know
people without the DISEASE do not have this craving.  Attitude does
not cause this craving.  It is chemical and the inability of the
alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
Tom P.


--- In AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com, Ernest Kurtz <kurtzern@u...>
wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
> presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
> others' awareness if pretty pitiful.  I know some of these people,
> though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to
some of
> us.  Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA
supporters
> will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who
can
> verify what they say.  I know you are not interested in my
biography,
> but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
> agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
> claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging
ditches
> today.
>
> For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
> researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan.
9th. She
> worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest.
We
> will miss her.
>
> ernie kurtz
>
> MARCH 10-12, 2005
> SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION:  SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
> PERSPECTIVES:  A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY
>
> www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm
>
> Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and
alcohol
> problems.  However, until recently little scientific research has
> explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be
related or
> ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
> prevention, and recovery.  This three-day conference presents the
latest
> research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality
and
> addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological
and
> clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three
full
> day applied workshops.  In addition, breakout sessions will address
> responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
> treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
> cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.
>
> Keynote Speakers:
> .      Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research
Center,
> University of Washington:  "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment
of
> Addictive Behaviors"
> .      Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology
at the
> Methodist Theological School in Ohio:  "Spiritual Roots of
Addiction and
> Recovery"
>
> Other Presenters:
> .      Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California -
Berkeley:  "The Good,
> the Religious, and the Spiritual:  The Same?"
> .      Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State
University:  "Explaining the
> Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
> .      Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City:  "What's
God Got to
> Do With It?  A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among
African
> American Youth"
> .      Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan:  "Six-
Month
> Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
> .      Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University:  "Eating
> Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
> .      Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden:  "The
Spiritual
> Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
> Sweden:  The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis
in
> Addiction Research"
>
> Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
> .      Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan
Marlatt &
> Jean Kristeller)
> .      Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley &
Kathy Goggin)
>
> Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
> .      Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and
Addiction (Tom
> Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
> (Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop
may do
> so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the
workshop)
>
> The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health
Education
> 1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana.  The cost of the
> three-day conference is $150  ($65 for full time students), and
includes
> continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
> reception on Thursday early evening.  You can also elect to attend
only
> one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee,
continental
> breakfast, and lunch).  Continuing Education Credits are available
for
> psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors
(see
> the conference web-site for details).  For more information about
the
> conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-
2449.
>
> To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
> 800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.






   _____

Yahoo! Groups Links

* To visit your group on the web, go to:
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AAHistoryLovers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> From: "Tom P." <tomper99@...>
> Date: 2005/01/22 Sat PM 11:01:54 EST
> To: AAHistoryLovers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [AAHistoryLovers] Re: Conference of possible interest to some
>
>
>
> Thanks for the info Ernie.
> I do not see how someone like Stanton Peele can have a clue about
> alcoholism unless he has experienced it.  I have experienced it and
> the disease still tries to tell me I do not have a craving set up
> when I take that first drink; but believe me I do.  As we all know
> people without the DISEASE do not have this craving.  Attitude does
> not cause this craving.  It is chemical and the inability of the
> alcoholics body to assimilate alcohol.
> Sorry to all, this is not history but Ernie's post mentioning Peele
> obviously touched a nerve; and this alcoholic is still damn touchy.
> Tom P.
>

Are there any references that go into the specific differences between the
metabolism in non-alcoholics and alcoholics? As a chemist I have been intrigued
but haven't been able to uncover anything specific for over a decade.

Tommy in Baton Rouge

Hi,

Although this is not primarily an AA History project, some of the
presenters at this conference have a good knowledge of AA history,
others' awareness if pretty pitiful.  I know some of these people,
though, and I think what they have to say will be of interest to some of
us.  Also, from my own lengthy experience, I know that the AA supporters
will need all the help they can get from the presence of AAs who can
verify what they say.  I know you are not interested in my biography,
but if a lot of AAs had not been present and nodding their heads in
agreement while most professional present were incredulous about my
claims for AA way back in the mid-1970s, I'd probably be digging ditches
today.

For those who may not have heard, Edith Lisansky Gomberg, premier
researcher and lover of AA, died in her sleep at age 85 on Jan. 9th. She
worked hard to keep others, including even Stanton Peele, honest. We
will miss her.

ernie kurtz

MARCH 10-12, 2005
SPIRITUALITY AND ADDICTION:  SCIENTIFIC, THEOLOGICAL, & CLINICAL
PERSPECTIVES:  A CONFERENCE FOR RESEARCHERS, CLINICIANS, & CLERGY

www.indstate.edu/psych/cshrs/addictions%20Conference.htm

Religiousness and Spirituality seem to protect against drug and alcohol
problems.  However, until recently little scientific research has
explored the means by which spirituality and addiction may be related or
ways that spirituality and religion may be involved in treatment,
prevention, and recovery.  This three-day conference presents the latest
research on the relationships between religiousness/spirituality and
addiction, discussions by clergy and clinicians on the theological and
clinical implications of the work, and a choice from one of three full
day applied workshops.  In addition, breakout sessions will address
responses by congregations and faith based programs, assessment and
treatment issues, 12-step programs, Eastern Spirituality, and
cross-cultural, historical, and epidemiological issues.

Keynote Speakers:
· Alan Marlatt, Ph.D. - Director, Addictive Behaviors Research Center,
University of Washington:  "Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of
Addictive Behaviors"
· Linda Mercadante, Ph.D. - Robert B. Straker Chair of Theology at the
Methodist Theological School in Ohio:  "Spiritual Roots of Addiction and
Recovery"

Other Presenters:
· Sarah Zemore, Ph.D., University of California - Berkeley:  "The Good,
the Religious, and the Spiritual:  The Same?"
· Thomas J. Johnson, Ph.D., Indiana State University:  "Explaining the
Connection Between Religiousness/Spirituality and Alcohol Problems"
· Kathy Goggin, University of Missouri-Kansas City:  "What's God Got to
Do With It?  A Cognitive Model of the Influence of Faith Among African
American Youth"
· Elizabeth Robinson, MSW, Ph.D., University of Michigan:  "Six-Month
Changes in Spirituality and Religiousness in Treated Alcoholics"
· Jean Kristeller, Ph.D., Indiana State University:  "Eating
Disregulation and Mindfulness Meditation"
· Valerie Demarnis, Ph.D., Uppsala University, Sweden:  "The Spiritual
Dimension as Existential Meaning Making in Addiction Treatment in
Sweden:  The Importance and Challenge of Cultural Context Analysis in
Addiction Research"

Clinical Workshops (All Day on Saturday):
· Mindfulness Meditation in the Treatment of Addictions (Alan Marlatt &
Jean Kristeller)
· Introduction to Motivational Interviewing (Delwyn Catley & Kathy Goggin)

Research Workshop (All Day on Saturday):
· Conducting Research on Religiousness/Spirituality and Addiction (Tom
Johnson, Virgil Sheets, Peter Hill, & others)
(Full time students who wish to attend only the research workshop may do
so free of charge, but must still register to hold a place in the workshop)

The conference will be held at the Landsbaum Center for Health Education
1433 North 6 1/2 Street in Terre Haute, Indiana.  The cost of the
three-day conference is $150  ($65 for full time students), and includes
continental breakfast and lunch each day of the conference, plus a
reception on Thursday early evening.  You can also elect to attend only
one of the Saturday workshops for $75 (including CE fee, continental
breakfast, and lunch).  Continuing Education Credits are available for
psychologists, nurses, social workers, physicians, and counselors (see
the conference web-site for details).  For more information about the
conference visit the web-site or call Dr. Tom Johnson at (812) 237-2449.

To register by phone using Visa or Master card, call (toll free)
800-234-1639, Monday through Friday from 8:00 am - 4:00 pm, EST.

Dear Nancy,
My name is Roy T. and I am an alcoholic. Sobered up in Bombay India
in April 1990. I was going through the brief biograpies of the
authors ot the stories and I notices that you did not have the name
or accurate sobriety dates of the author of "Life Saving Words" from
the 3rd Ed. I contacted some of my friends involved in service in
India and am forwarding you some exerpts form the G.S.O. (India) AA
Manual (Historical section):

HOW THE MESSSAGE FIRST CAME TO INDIA : American pilots started a
meeting in Calcutta during World War II, but it did not survive the
war. Till 1957 a few individuals attempted sobriety through direct
correspondence with G.S.O., New York. FInally in early 1957, a
Canadian named Charley Marshall was posted to the Candian Embassy at
New Delhi. Prior to his coming to India, Charley wrote to our co-
founder, Bill W. informing that he was being sent to New Delhi
and "naturally I would like to keep up my A.A. activities, and if
there are any contacts there, that I can get in touch with, I would
surely welcome the opportunity". The reply from General Service
Office, N.Y. gave the contact names of Sylvia M. and Suppatti M.
to Charley Marshall. Confirmed correspondence indicates that Charley
M. arrived in New Delhi on 12th January 1957 and was able to locate
Sylvia and Suppatti M. within a week. He then began to place
advertisements in local newspapers offering help to those with a
drinking problem. It was through one of these "ads" that Lieutenant
Colonel Trevor King of the Jat Regiment of the Indian Army had the
opportunity to come in contact with Charley M. From his response,
Trevor K. remained sober from 24th October 1957 till his death on
31st Dec. 1986. The story of Trevor K. appears in the BIG BOOK
entitled - "Life-saving words". In November 1957, Trevor K. had
the good fortune to go to New Delhi where he met Charley M., who
suggested that he register as a "loner" due to his army postings.
Trevor's service postings took him to new places in India and he
became a roving ambassador of the A.A. movement in India sowing the
seeds of the fellowship at Bangalore, Kanpur, Lucknow, Allahabad,
Calcutta and other cities.

in fellowship
Roy T.
Baldwin, NY/Bombay, India