Nobody says it better than the 'Ode' one..<G>

I'm forever surprised that more people do not 'get' reading people,
body languague, what they 'don't say', how they say what they 'do'
say, etc..

Hillary.. Took the UNELECTED position of First Lady to a position of
making policy for this country (let me say again, UNELECTED), used
the coat tails of her sorry excuse of a President husband to garner a
Senate seat from New York with a bit of dubious dealing from the
bottom, does little but blame Bush for everything that the Democrats
have done that goes sour, sneaks rider bills (that could not pass on
their own merits) onto legislation of others... You can bet she is
STILL seething that she lost the nomination... Something she NEVER
thought would happen...

Watching this witch makes me wonder just what in the hell has she
said that was ever good for this country and a look at her career
would never get her a security clearance to be her own bodyguard..

Having said all of that, and realizing this county elected Clinton
TWICE and made the run of Gore and Kerry close races I have to wonder
JUST WHAT IN THE HELL IS IN THE BLEEPING WATER??

Oh, and before I close... Palin is the ONLY one of the three that has
made many decisions at an Executive Brand level, decisions that she
has to answer for while the other three get to vote with no
responsibility attached. Good enough for me...

Uncleben ..

At 07:19 PM 10/30/2008 +0000, you wrote:

>Adult conversation..love  it.
>
>In this group,A person can express their personal views and they can be
>directly opposite of others and yet it is good to hear each position.
>
>I am done going over this in my head...I will cast my vote
>Tuesday  knowing that it probably doesn't matter...the outcome has been
>planned ...long before these debates even began.
>
>If I had had my druthers...Dame Hillary would have taken the lead and KEPT it.


   ##  IMO  Palin is the only clean [ish] one in this deal.
   McCain has had to double deal for survival in a pack of cannibalistic
alligators.


   Hillary:
   Most don't remember the CIA / Clinton cocaine smuggling out of Mena
Arkansas, the real estate corporation to launder the cash and the over 100
people associated with Bill that wound up dead with a lot of first person
testimony and circumstantial evidence to back up the story, but not solid
enough to make it a try-able crime. [not to mention possible CIA protection]

I saw last night that "Palin shares oil" [and spreads the wealth] implying
that she is a socialist.
   NOT true.
   Most of Alaskan oil comes out of public lands owned by "Alaskans"
All native born Alaskans that actually live in Alaska get a cut of the
leases and production just like any private land owner would...at last
check, $1400 a year.
   Palin simply confronted the oil companies with the fact that they weren't
paying based on the current price of the barrel.
   The facts are the facts and they had nowhere to roll.

   Were she to tap private land leases and distribute THAT...THEN she would
be a socialist.
   If she were to claim that Alaska doesn't belong to Alaskans.....socialist.

   All she did was make sure that the owners of the land got their proper
dividends as per contract.
   If anyone would just nail down who this country belongs to, a whole lot
would start to make sense.

Ode

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "cncsmetal75708" <cncsmetal@...>

Record Versus Rhetoric
By Thomas Sowell
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell101708.php3

Apparently there is something about Sarah Palin that causes some
people to think of her as either the best of candidates or the worst
of candidates. She draws enthusiastic crowds and provokes visceral
hostility in the media.

The issue that is raised most often is her relative lack of
experience and the fact that she would be "a heartbeat away from the
presidency" if Senator John McCain were elected. But Barack Obama has
even less experience ­ none in an executive capacity ­ and his would
itself be the heartbeat of the presidency if he were elected.

Sarah Palin's record is on the record, while whole years of Barack
Obama's life are engulfed in fog, and he has had to explain away one
after another of the astounding and v ile people he has not
merely "associated" with but has had political alliances with, and to
whom he has directed the taxpayers' money and other money.

Sarah Palin has had executive experience ­ and the White House is the
executive branch of government. We don't have to judge her by her
rhetoric because she has a record.

We don't know what Barack Obama will actually do because he has
actually done very little for which he was personally accountable.
Even as a state legislator, he voted "present" innumerable times
instead of taking a stand one way or the other on tough issues.

"Clean up the mess in Washington"? He was part of the mess in Chicago
and lined up with the Daley machine against reformers. He is also
part of the mess in Washington, not only with numerous earmarks, but
also as the Senate's second largest recipient of money from Fannie
Mae, and someone whose campaign has this year sought the advice of
disgraced former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines, who was at the heart
of the subprime crisis.

Why then the enthusiasm for Obama and the hostility to Sarah Palin in
the media? One reason of course is that Senator Obama is
ideologically much closer to the views of the media than is Governor
Palin. But there is more than that. There are other conservative
politicians who do not evoke such anger, spite and hate.

Sarah Palin is the one real outsider among the four candidates for
the presidency and vice-presidency on the Republican and Democratic
tickets. Her whole career has been spent outside the Washington
Beltway.

More than that, her whole life has been outside the realm familiar to
the intelligentsia of the media. She didn't go to the big-name
colleges and imbibe the heady atmosphere that leaves so many feeling
that they are special folks. She doesn't talk the way they talk or
think the way they think.

Worse yet, from the media's perspective, Sarah Palin does not seek
their Good Housekeeping seal of approval.

Much is made of Senator Joe Biden's "experience." But Frederick the
Great said that experience matters only when valid conclusions are
drawn from it.

Senator Biden's "experience" has been a long history of being on the
wrong side of issue after issue in foreign policy. He was one of
those Senators who voted to pull the plug on financial aid to South
Vietnam, which was still defending itself from Communist invaders
after the pullout of American troops.

Biden opposed Ronald Reagan's military buildup that helped win the
Cold War. He opposed the surge in Iraq last year.

Sarah Palin will not be ready to become President of the United
States on the first day that she and John McCain take office. Nobody
is.

But being Vice President is a job that can allow a lot of time for
studying, and everyth ing about Governor Palin's career says that she
is a bright gal with her head on straight. The country needs that far
more than it needs people with glib answers to media "gotcha"
questions.

Whatever the shortcomings of John McCain and Sarah Palin, they are
people whose values are the values of this nation, whose loyalty and
dedication to this country's fundamental institutions are beyond
question because they have not spent decades working with people who
hate America. Nor are they people whose judgments have been proved
wrong consistently during decades of Beltway "experience."

Uncleben .. and you're welcome..<G>

Record Versus Rhetoric
By Thomas Sowell
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell101708.php3


Apparently there is something about Sarah Palin that causes some
people to think of her as either the best of candidates or the worst
of candidates. She draws enthusiastic crowds and provokes visceral
hostility in the media.

The issue that is raised most often is her relative lack of
experience and the fact that she would be "a heartbeat away from the
presidency" if Senator John McCain were elected. But Barack Obama has
even less experience ­ none in an executive capacity ­ and his would
itself be the heartbeat of the presidency if he were elected.

Sarah Palin's record is on the record, while whole years of Barack
Obama's life are engulfed in fog, and he has had to explain away one
after another of the astounding and vile people he has not
merely "associated" with but has had political alliances with, and to
whom he has directed the taxpayers' money and other money.

Sarah Palin has had executive experience ­ and the White House is the
executive branch of government. We don't have to judge her by her
rhetoric because she has a record.

We don't know what Barack Obama will actually do because he has
actually done very little for which he was personally accountable.
Even as a state legislator, he voted "present" innumerable times
instead of taking a stand one way or the other on tough issues.

"Clean up the mess in Washington"? He was part of the mess in Chicago
and lined up with the Daley machine against reformers. He is also
part of the mess in Washington, not only with numerous earmarks, but
also as the Senate's second largest recipient of money from Fannie
Mae, and someone whose campaign has this year sought the advice of
disgraced former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines, who was at the heart
of the subprime crisis.

Why then the enthusiasm for Obama and the hostility to Sarah Palin in
the media? One reason of course is that Senator Obama is
ideologically much closer to the views of the media than is Governor
Palin. But there is more than that. There are other conservative
politicians who do not evoke such anger, spite and hate.

Sarah Palin is the one real outsider among the four candidates for
the presidency and vice-presidency on the Republican and Democratic
tickets. Her whole career has been spent outside the Washington
Beltway.

More than that, her whole life has been outside the realm familiar to
the intelligentsia of the media. She didn't go to the big-name
colleges and imbibe the heady atmosphere that leaves so many feeling
that they are special folks. She doesn't talk the way they talk or
think the way they think.

Worse yet, from the media's perspective, Sarah Palin does not seek
their Good Housekeeping seal of approval.

Much is made of Senator Joe Biden's "experience." But Frederick the
Great said that experience matters only when valid conclusions are
drawn from it.

Senator Biden's "experience" has been a long history of being on the
wrong side of issue after issue in foreign policy. He was one of
those Senators who voted to pull the plug on financial aid to South
Vietnam, which was still defending itself from Communist invaders
after the pullout of American troops.

Biden opposed Ronald Reagan's military buildup that helped win the
Cold War. He opposed the surge in Iraq last year.

Sarah Palin will not be ready to become President of the United
States on the first day that she and John McCain take office. Nobody
is.

But being Vice President is a job that can allow a lot of time for
studying, and everything about Governor Palin's career says that she
is a bright gal with her head on straight. The country needs that far
more than it needs people with glib answers to media "gotcha"
questions.

Whatever the shortcomings of John McCain and Sarah Palin, they are
people whose values are the values of this nation, whose loyalty and
dedication to this country's fundamental institutions are beyond
question because they have not spent decades working with people who
hate America. Nor are they people whose judgments have been proved
wrong consistently during decades of Beltway "experience."

Uncleben .. and you're welcome..<G>

I want to meet you. Give me a chance! Click here to chat with me online:
http://dabneysg.zoomshare.com/files/chat.htm

We've already got it over here. Its called a GST - Goods and Services Tax. I
guess its the same as the UK VAT.  Its 10% and goes on top of just about
everything new except food. (It doesnt apply to used goods, land or houses).
We've had it for about 10 years.  Big argument when it was first proposed but
no-one seems to worry much about it now.

It replaced lots individual taxes that were added here and there in the sales
and manufacturing chain. Now, everyone (in business) adds 10% to anything
they sell but they can claim it back if they on-sell that product to someone
else. So ultimately only the final consumer/user of the product pays the 10%
tax on the final sale price.  Each 3 months we provide a statement to the tax
office advising how much tax we collected on goods we sold versus how
much we paid on goods we bought.  The only way to 'cheat' the system is to
pay cash for small labour jobs but I don't think theres enough of that going on
to be a big deal.

The tax is collected by the Feds and then distributed to the states. This system
collects much more tax than the old system because it cant be significantly
cheated. I think the feds and states were surprised how much they started
receiving.

When this system was introduced the states were supposed to drop most of
there taxes but in many cases they didnt. They just changed the name to a
'fee' or a 'duty' or a 'levy'  so they could keep on double dipping.

But ultimately I think its a better and fairer system than we had previously.

David



--- In 4COLLOIDALSILVER@yahoogroups.com, "cncsmetal75708" <
cncsmetal@...> wrote:
>
> I love the idea of a National SALES Tax for several good reasons. The
> collection apparatus is already in place nation wide. It's difficult
> to cheat on sales tax. Once you pay it, you own it. Period. A
> National Sales Tax gets us all at the same percentage so it is
> inherently fair.
>
> But to work well and stay totally nondiscriminatory it would have to
> replace ALL OTHER TAXES.. The states collect it, take their share and
> send the rest to the fed.. Also, to aid the poor there would need to
> be some things outside the tax code, things like food, utilities,
> medicine, things deemed as `necessities' which, of course, would be
> tax free for the rich as well as the poor.. Like I said,
> nondiscriminatory.
>
> Idealistic? Of course, but all it would take to work is to IMPLEMENT
> IT!! Even if the bleeping tax were 100% you would only pay it ONCE,
> not like this horrific, never ending, yearly property tax and the
> obscene `death tax' on an estate that has be put together with AFTER
> TAX DOLLARS for cryin' out loud… If that's not double taxation I
> don't know what is..
>
> Uncleben ..
> >
>

I love the idea of a National SALES Tax for several good reasons. The
collection apparatus is already in place nation wide. It's difficult
to cheat on sales tax. Once you pay it, you own it. Period. A
National Sales Tax gets us all at the same percentage so it is
inherently fair.

But to work well and stay totally nondiscriminatory it would have to
replace ALL OTHER TAXES.. The states collect it, take their share and
send the rest to the fed.. Also, to aid the poor there would need to
be some things outside the tax code, things like food, utilities,
medicine, things deemed as `necessities' which, of course, would be
tax free for the rich as well as the poor.. Like I said,
nondiscriminatory.

Idealistic? Of course, but all it would take to work is to IMPLEMENT
IT!! Even if the bleeping tax were 100% you would only pay it ONCE,
not like this horrific, never ending, yearly property tax and the
obscene `death tax' on an estate that has be put together with AFTER
TAX DOLLARS for cryin' out loud… If that's not double taxation I
don't know what is..

Uncleben ..
>

NOT SURE IF ANY OF YOU HAVE KIDDOS WHO WILL BE TRICK OR TREATING.
NOT EVEN SURE IF ANY OF  YOU ARE INTERESTED IN THIS POST...SENDING IT ANYWAY...SEEMS TO BE LEGIT...WILL CHOOSE TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF SAFETY...SITLL SICK...SILVER BARELY TOUCHING THIS ONE...EXCUSE THE MISTAKJS   V.

PLEASE READ AND PASS IT ON...SNOPES HAS THIS LISTED AS RECENTLY AS THIS YEAR...V.

 

HALLOWEEN CANDY RECALLED

 

(verified on snopes: http://www.snopes.com/food/warnings/coins.asp)

 

There is a new warning put out by the Canadian Food Inspection Agency....

 

Sherwood brand Pirate's Gold Milk Chocolate coins are being recalled due to the fact that they contain Melamine, the ingredient in milk product that has caused many infant deaths in china.

These candies are sold at Costco, as well as many bulk and dollar stores.

 

please make sure to check your childrens halloween candy and DO NOT LET THEM EAT THE PIRATE COINS (you know the ones wrapped in the shiny gold foil)

 

and please let other parents know about this!

---

Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registration required and great graphics – check it out!

-------------- Original message --------------
From: Ode Coyote <odecoyote@...>

>
> Proper Communication is the key to ending
>strife in so many areas of life, true?
>
>-Carl

It's also an opening for manipulation if "proper" is taken too loosely.
The world would just love a gullible and pliable prez of the USA, so, OF
COURSE Obama is popular.

..one little problem for all.
Those who are secretly insecure tend to over react so they don't show
that hidden weakness.
Obama shows that he wants to "please" people over and over again and
that's why people like him.

Heck. ***I*** like Obama, he is much like me....but "like" isn't the point.
I.... would make a CRAPPY President, always looking for the best in
people. [and not seeing KGB in Putins eyes like GWB didn't ]
At least "I" know that I can be conned. It doesn't look like Obama knows that.
One of MY biggest problems is a tendency to "Give away the store"
**I** tend to get overly defensive when I bury myself too deep in take r
gamers who are playing my giver game with me.
My only defense is to go stony, seemingly without reason...and NOT
justify it.

"Looking for love" doesn't make for the best decisions in a hard loveless
world.
It makes for an easy mark...a "pushover". [like myself]
Joe Biden said that Obama wasn't qualified, then "changed his mind" when
selected as a running mate.
Joe Biden is a well tested manipulator with decades of back stabbing
Washington experience.

Forget about the warm fuzzies "love" and look at the hard cold facts.

Every time the "peeps" get what they "want", the economy goes to shit, the
process is ignored and gets buried and a fixer that can't fix it gets the
blame.
With that failure comes *more of the previous same* in retaliation ....to
make it worse.
Dumping money into a poor pit will not, can not and never did make the
poor, rich.

Personality wise, Obama is more like GWB than GWB is like M cCain.
He's more like GWB than GWB is...not more OF the same but more so THAN
the same.

If you look at the record "honestly" and without bias, it wasn't Bush that
killed the economy, it was FDR, LBJ, J Carter and B Clinton...every one of
them "looking for the peoples love" and giving the store away to get it.
[Let the next guy take the risk of being unpopular and when THAT fails, it
gets handed back to the originators of the problem!]

...AND, every one of the originators ignoring/avoiding bad guys whenever
possible or mollifying them when not, just as they ignore and bury the
problem with blame.
Nobody "wants" a fight. Getting into one make you unpopular. If all that
can be done is avoid destruction ie "no way to win", unpopular is a
given...give it to the next guy.

J Carter STILL believes that weasel Arabfat had a thread of honesty in him.
B Clinton ***ran away*** from Osama Bin Laden at least three times, once
actually refusing to take him when offered up on a silver platter.

It wasn't Democrats cleaning up after Republicans. It was Republicans
FAILING to clean up after Democrats, then being blamed AS *cause* be-cause
off that failure.
THAT is why there are these "cycles" being obscured with delays.
Since voters decide who wins, both parties are forced to make promises
they can't keep.
In the pure sense:
The honest Democrat believes the impossible can be true.
The honest Republican is a true liar.
In reality:
Neither 'party' is particularly honest as neither knows what they are
doing, each always distracted by the other...thus "impure".

The political "LOVE" game is a con game on BOTH ends with hidden
manipulators in the middle. [That would be anyone who decides to secretly
cash in and arranges the game to favor them via a myriad of ways on
different days..*Symbol Sellers* *Guilt Trippers*, the manipulators of
"hope and em otions".]
Pawns, by definition, don't know they are playing and always insist there
is no game.
Anyone who has a desire for love is a pawn.

The big bad bottom line:
YOU CANNOT help someone be different, you can ONLY help them be like they are.

THEY decide to change when you DON'T help them remain the same.

There is no "help" possible, there is only enable.... being mis-defined.
A con man "helps" you con yourself.
A con man that doesn't know he's a con man is also a pawn, ripe and ready
for one who does know, to manipulate.

Almost without exception, anyone who yells the loudest "look there" is
really saying "don't look here".....whether they know it or not.

If you yell "look here" to find independence and the majority refuses to
look, all that's left is "look there" at dependency in it's true light.
..the light of moths and flames...the Hell of the same old salvation
swapping sides.

The difference betwee n the saviours you want and the saviours that save:
Mohammad: "I'm going to help you by hurting them" [what is wanted,
result, endless cycles of the same old thing over and over being CALLED change]

The same thing changing sides is not change.

Jesus: "You are going to have to save yourself, Rome isn't the true
problem" [what is needed, result, loop busters and something as yet
unknown...ACTUAL change.]

It's

" Better the Devil you know" [ The comfortable cyclic misery stolen and
re-stolen] vs "The Risk of Heaven as yet unknown." [The true scariness of
an uncertainty owned]

Hitting someone does not show bravery, it shows your fear.
Yes, McCain is afraid...AND...well knows what fear is. [ And he's a
crappy liar ]

Obama is oblivious. 'Kicked upstairs" to unknowingly? represent the kickers.

Joe Biden is an experienced oblivion expert, a finely honed manipulator of
widely respected skill. [Intent irre levant to the means ]

HE will be the "President" if Obama is elected, with all of the power and
none of the blame.
Good or bad?
Only Joe Biden knows Joe Bidens intent...but the *set up* is as near
perfect as a really good manipulator can make it.
Joe is on Joes side, not Obamas. [He'll be behind the president all the
way..as puppeteer. ]

..that *could be* better, given how "people" are...maybe even better than
McCain.....WILL be a surprise.
A promise of a surprise has been made. [ a con mans "Set Up" ? ]

It has been made clear that we won't like it.
But what we like is what got us into all this trouble.
EVERY side played a co-operative role for their own reasons...even the
foreign investors....even the terrorists who, if they win anything at all,
pull the rug out from under their own feet.

Joe Biden appears to be one of a very high intelligence and admirably
devious nature. [a mentality similar to Robert Anton Wilson and L. Ron
Hubbard ..both a LOT smarter than the average bear and hard to follow even
with the path laid out and well marked]
A CON is not good or bad, it's just hidden.
..he might just con the con the con. [Like in the "Illuminatus Trilogy" and
it's Scientology "bullshit beats the crap out of nonsense" brother , cousin
to watered down for the imbecile, EST and it's Family Forum twin]

If America is to survive it's desires, something different will have to
happen.
More of the same swapping sides with blame doesn't work...that is crystal
clear.
By the devious path, or the straight forward path makes little difference.

That makes me neutral.
I prefer the straight forward, but know that most folks can't see
straight even if it kicks them in the face.
.......I have the bruises to prove it. [I AM most folks and that was MY
foot you kicked me with.]

Ode

>
>  Proper Communication is the key to ending
>strife in so many areas of life, true?
>
>-Carl


   It's also an opening for manipulation if "proper" is taken too loosely.
The world would just love a gullible and pliable prez of the USA, so, OF
COURSE Obama is popular.

..one little problem for all.
   Those who are secretly insecure tend to over react so they don't show
that hidden weakness.
   Obama shows that he wants to "please" people over and over again and
that's why people like him.

   Heck.  ***I***  like Obama, he is much like me....but "like" isn't the point.
   I.... would make a CRAPPY President, always looking for the best in
people. [and not seeing KGB in Putins eyes like GWB didn't ]
At least "I" know that I can be conned. It doesn't look like Obama knows that.
   One of MY biggest problems is a tendency to "Give away the store"
   **I**  tend to get overly defensive when I bury myself too deep in taker
gamers who are playing my giver game with me.
   My only defense is to go stony, seemingly without reason...and NOT
justify it.

"Looking for love" doesn't make for the best decisions in a hard loveless
world.
   It makes for an easy mark...a "pushover". [like myself]
   Joe Biden said that Obama wasn't qualified, then "changed his mind" when
selected as a running mate.
   Joe Biden is a well tested manipulator with decades of back stabbing
Washington experience.

   Forget about the warm fuzzies "love" and look at the hard cold facts.

Every time the "peeps" get what they "want", the economy goes to shit, the
process is ignored and gets buried and a fixer that can't fix it gets the
blame.
   With that failure comes *more of the previous same* in retaliation ....to
make it worse.
   Dumping money into a poor pit will not, can not and never did make the
poor, rich.

Personality wise, Obama is more like GWB than GWB is like McCain.
   He's more like GWB than GWB is...not more OF the same but more so THAN
the same.

If you look at the record "honestly" and without bias, it wasn't Bush that
killed the economy, it was FDR, LBJ, J Carter and B Clinton...every one of
them "looking for the peoples love" and giving the store away to get it.
[Let the next guy take the risk of being unpopular and when THAT fails, it
gets handed back to the originators of the problem!]

...AND, every one of the originators ignoring/avoiding  bad guys whenever
possible or mollifying them when not,  just as they ignore and bury the
problem with blame.
   Nobody "wants" a fight. Getting into one make you unpopular.  If all that
can be done is avoid destruction ie "no way to win", unpopular is a
given...give it to the next guy.

   J Carter STILL believes that weasel Arabfat had a thread of honesty in him.
   B Clinton ***ran away*** from Osama Bin Laden at least three times, once
actually refusing to take him when offered up on a silver platter.

It wasn't Democrats cleaning up after Republicans.  It was Republicans
FAILING to clean up after Democrats, then being blamed AS *cause* be-cause
off that failure.
   THAT is why there are these "cycles" being obscured with delays.
   Since voters decide who wins, both parties are forced to make promises
they can't keep.
   In the pure sense:
   The honest Democrat believes the impossible can be true.
The honest Republican is a true liar.
   In reality:
   Neither 'party'  is particularly honest as neither knows what they are
doing, each always distracted by the other...thus "impure".

   The political "LOVE" game is a con game on BOTH ends with hidden
manipulators in the middle. [That would be anyone who decides to secretly
cash in and arranges the game to favor them via a myriad of ways on
different days..*Symbol Sellers*  *Guilt Trippers*, the manipulators of
"hope and emotions".]
   Pawns, by definition, don't know they are playing and always insist there
is no game.
   Anyone who has a desire for love is a pawn.

   The big bad bottom line:
YOU CANNOT help someone be different, you can ONLY help them be like they are.

THEY decide to change when you DON'T help them remain the same.

There is no "help" possible, there is only enable.... being mis-defined.
   A con man "helps" you con yourself.
   A con man that doesn't know he's a con man is also a pawn, ripe and ready
for one who does know, to manipulate.

   Almost without exception, anyone who yells the loudest "look there" is
really saying "don't look here".....whether they know it or not.

   If you yell "look here" to find independence and the majority refuses to
look, all that's left is "look there" at dependency in it's true light.
..the light of moths and flames...the Hell of the same old salvation
swapping sides.

   The difference between the saviours you want and the saviours that save:
   Mohammad:   "I'm going to help you by hurting them"  [what is wanted,
result, endless cycles of the same old thing over and over being CALLED change]

   The same thing changing sides is not change.

Jesus: "You are going to have to save yourself, Rome isn't the true
problem" [what is needed, result, loop busters and something as yet
unknown...ACTUAL change.]

It's

" Better the Devil you know" [ The comfortable cyclic misery stolen and
re-stolen]  vs "The Risk of Heaven as yet unknown." [The true scariness of
an uncertainty owned]

Hitting someone does not show bravery, it shows your fear.
   Yes, McCain is afraid...AND...well knows what fear is. [ And he's a
crappy liar ]

Obama is oblivious. 'Kicked upstairs" to unknowingly? represent the kickers.

Joe Biden is an experienced oblivion expert, a finely honed manipulator of
widely respected skill. [Intent irrelevant to the means ]

   HE will be the "President" if Obama is elected, with all of the power and
none of the blame.
   Good or bad?
   Only Joe Biden knows Joe Bidens  intent...but the *set up* is as near
perfect as a really good manipulator can make it.
   Joe is on Joes side, not Obamas. [He'll be behind the president all the
way..as puppeteer. ]

..that *could be* better, given how "people" are...maybe even better than
McCain.....WILL be a surprise.
   A promise of a surprise has been made. [ a con mans "Set Up" ? ]

   It has been made clear that we won't like it.
   But what we like is what got us into all this trouble.
   EVERY side played a co-operative role for their own reasons...even the
foreign investors....even the terrorists who, if they win anything at all,
pull the rug out from under their own feet.

   Joe Biden appears to be one of a very high intelligence and admirably
devious nature. [a mentality similar to Robert Anton Wilson and L. Ron
Hubbard ..both a LOT smarter than the average bear and hard to follow even
with the path laid out and well marked]
   A CON is not good or bad, it's just hidden.
..he might just con the con the con. [Like in the "Illuminatus Trilogy" and
it's Scientology "bullshit beats the crap out of nonsense" brother , cousin
to watered down for the imbecile, EST and it's Family Forum twin]

   If America is to survive it's desires, something different will have to
happen.
   More of the same swapping sides with blame doesn't work...that is crystal
clear.
   By the devious path, or the straight forward path makes little difference.

    That makes me neutral.
   I prefer the straight forward, but know that most folks can't see
straight even if it kicks them in the face.
.......I have the bruises to prove it. [I AM most folks and that was MY
foot you kicked me with.]

Ode

Weapons of mass destruction are alive and well.
The most dangerous of all could very well be the human mind. The
second is our news media. Third may well be our education system..
The thought of the likes of a Bill Ayers teaching our kids should be
enough to solicit a 'no vote' for Obama..

The life blood of this country is bleeding out almost as fast as the
effect of the drain of foreign aid, social programs, etc. on our
economy, without which (the life blood) we cease to exit...
Lest we forget...

"You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich. You cannot
strengthen the weak by weakening the strong. You cannot bring about
prosperity by discouraging thrift. You cannot lift the wage earner up
by pulling the wage payer down. You cannot further the brotherhood of
man by inciting class hatred. You cannot build character and courage
by taking away people's initiative and independence. You cannot help
people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do
for themselves." Abraham Lincoln

Thomas Jefferson once wrote:
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who
are willing to work and give to those who would not."

Uncleben ..

At 09:52 PM 10/18/2008 -0400, you wrote:

>Thanks Ode.  That sounds right - that it's continuing to brew.  I now
>remember that it's what it used to look like when I was using the battery
>to make cs and forgot about it.  I still don't like what it looks like,
>but it makes me feel better that it may not be the water.  (although I
>still may do what David suggests and see what the difference is with some
>demin. water.)  I got my silver puppy in January 2006 - is that 'really' old?


   Nope....up to 1999 maybe.  Don't recall exactly when I changed em.

Silver slick on top comes mostly from a surface tension transfer between
Hydrogen bubbles and the water surface. When the Hydrogen bubble pops it
transfers silver particles imbedded on it's surface to the surface tension
on top.
   It's actually very little silver collected in a depression made by the
weight of the collection and looks a lot worse than it is.

Ode

>
>And to answer your other email, under normal light I see nothing, no
>cloudiness; it makes sense that the light bulb beneath the cs is acting
>like a laser...
>
>thanks again!
>francie
>
>

Yes, get some demin water and see the difference. It may be better or worse but
at least
you'll have something to compare your current batches with. By the way, is this
a recent
problem or has it always happened?

David


--- In 4COLLOIDALSILVER@yahoogroups.com, "Francie" <francieww@...> wrote:
>
> hmmmm  Still the water.  To answer your other email, there's some
demineralised water
in the nearby village.  I know you use that, but I've always had my brother
bring me "life"
distilled water from Ottawa.  I don't usually wash the brewing glass unless it
does sit there
and turn hazy - then there's stuff lying on the bottom (and there were large
flakes of
'silver' floating on the top yesterday).  I always rinse well after washing and
then spray with
lots of cs, but just using a clean brush (no soap) and the cs would work too
when this
happens, maybe better.
>
> I could try the demin. water to see if would work better.
>
> thanks again, David.
>
> Francie
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: alchemysa
> To: 4COLLOIDALSILVER@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2008 5:04 AM
> Subject: [4COLLOIDALSILVER] Re: is cloudy cs okay?
>
>
> Water, water, water. Its always the water.
>
> David
>
>
> --- In 4COLLOIDALSILVER@yahoogroups.com, "Francie" <francieww@> wrote:
> >
> > I guess my question really is why is it clear as soon as the cs is ready,
but becomes
hazy
> if it's sitting on the light for 10 minutes or longer after turning off. 
(Unless the light
goes
> out but it's not really turning off...?)
> >
> > francie
>

No, that's a normal TE.
   The light is acting like a laser.
   If it looks cloudy under diffused light, [vs direct light]  that's
something different.

   Generally, the stronger the CS is made, the more distinct the TE will be.

Ode


At 11:20 PM 10/17/2008 -0400, you wrote:

>Thanks David - I forgot that you're also the one to ask!  I can easily see
>through it - in fact I can only really see the cloudiness when it's
>sitting on the silver puppy stand with the light still on.  Do you think
>that's impurities, or would the cloudiness be more pronounced?  I hope
>it's not that.  And why would it only happen if I don't remove the rods
>immediately?  Ten minutes later there are long strands from one of the
>rods, and it's got this mild cloudiness....
>
>(I try to be really careful with detergent, but I have only one choice in
>water, one suggested by Mike so it should be okay, although he later
>changed to something else.)
>
>thanks again,
>francie
>
>----------
>
>From: <mailto:mail@...>alchemysa
>Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 10:38 PM
>
>Cloudiness means the water contains impurities. (salts).
>
>Pure water may go a tiny bit grey or yellow if you run the gen too
>long, but it doesn't go cloudy, it still remains 'clear'. If its going
>cloudy (white/grey) then you should try different water. And make sure
>you havent got detergent remnants in the brewing jar.
>
>David
>
>----------
>
>"Francie" <francieww@...> wrote:
> >
> > I have a silver puppy (older version; light bulb underneath; no
>stirrer).  Usually I lift the rods out of the water now and then and
>keep an eye on it so that I can remove the rods the moment the cs is
>done.  If I forget about it and leave it there, it turns off as it's
>meant to, but the cs turns cloudy.  I use that for various things, but
>I don't give it to my animals or me.  I've now accidentally done that
>twice in a row so I have too much of it, and am wondering about the
>cloudiness.
> >
> > Why does it become cloudy, and does that matter?
> >
> > thanks for any replies,
> > francie
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1730 - Release Date: 10/17/2008
>8:07 AM

The light bulb is the stirrer, makes temperature differential convection
currents to move water.

If it's a *really* old one, it might be leaking a little after it turns off
and continue to make CS very slowly.
   If left in the water for a long time, it can develop some pretty thick
crud deposits on the electrodes that may account for cloudiness if mixed in.

   I can fix that now, using the LEDS breakover threshold.
   Took a while to figure that out.
   You can tell by looking at the PC board.  If the resistor right next to
the LED isn't connected to the LED, it's one of those.
   Golly, I don't even have the prints anymore.  It think it's R1..between
the LED legs and the power plug.

   I don't think the cloudiness is harmful in any way...just some silver
hydroxide.
   It's never kept me from using it.


Ode

At 03:19 PM 10/17/2008 -0400, you wrote:

>I have a silver puppy (older version; light bulb underneath; no
>stirrer).  Usually I lift the rods out of the water now and then and keep
>an eye on it so that I can remove the rods the moment the cs is done.  If
>I forget about it and leave it there, it turns off as it's meant to, but
>the cs turns cloudy.  I use that for various things, but I don't give it
>to my animals or me.  I've now accidentally done that twice in a row so I
>have too much of it, and am wondering about the cloudiness.
>
>Why does it become cloudy, and does that matter?
>
>thanks for any replies,
>francie
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1730 - Release Date: 10/17/2008
>8:07 AM

Somehow the reference wasn't included so I'm not too sure what you are
referring to.

I did say something about income taxes that business pays...that you pay
them when you buy something .... like a material cost of doing business
like the price of steel and plastic.
   Sales tax goes straight from your pocket to the gubernor  and county
via  a retailer.  Manufacturers don't get involved in that, but you do in
effect have a point.
   Minor difference between imbedded and direct tax, same drain on the wallet.

ode



At 06:21 AM 10/17/2008 -0500, you wrote:

>Ode,
>
>You do mean Sales Tax - right? That money belongs to the government,
>you just have to keep track of it and turn it in quarterly. In
>Arkansas, you get to keep something like 2% of it for paying on time.
>If you don't meet the deadline, the penalties are absurd.
>
>Paula
>
>No virus found in this incoming message.
>Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
>Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.8.1/1730 - Release Date: 10/17/2008
>8:07 AM

If anyone quotes back to you the warnings about CS that are listed on the
website of The National Centre FOR Complementary and Alternative
Medicine just remember this...

The NCCAM used to be called simply and more honestly The Office OF
Alternative Medicine. The name was changed to the current misleading title in
1998. (The NCCAM aint FOR alternative medicine at all).

It has an an 18 member Council appointed by the Secretary of Health and
Human Services. According to the charter 15 of these members shall be from
conventional medical, scientific and professional backgrounds. (At least 9
must be doctors)

Only 3 of the 18 members of the council "shall represent the interests of
individual consumers of complementary and alternative medicine".

The first stated mission of the NACCM is to "Explore complementary and
alternative healing practices in the context of rigorous science". In other
words, its all about alternative medicine being judged by conventional
medicine.

The NCCAM also funds studies into alternative medicine. But check these out.
I don't think theres much alternative MEDICINE actually being studied here..


Examples of Currently Funded Research
A few examples illustrate the broad array of basic, preclinical, and clinical
research projects—related to various health conditions and CAM modalities—
supported by NCCAM:
* Randomized study of tai chi in the management of chronic heart failure
* Clinical trial to test S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAMe) for the treatment of
depression in patients with Parkinson's disease
* Randomized study of the effects of massage on the immune system of
preterm infants
* Analysis of U.S. health surveys to examine CAM use among racial and
ethnic minorities
* Exploratory study of the effects of pulsed electromagnetic fields on
rheumatoid arthritis symptoms
* Study of the neurochemical mechanisms in the placebo response
* Study to measure the effects of Reiki on stress-induced intestinal damage
using an animal model
* Research center grants to support basic and clinical research on botanicals
* Research center on the neurobiology of acupuncture
* Developmental center on chiropractic manipulation.

Regards
David

http://nccam.nih.gov/about/advisory/naccam/charter.htm

Water, water, water. Its always the water.

David


--- In 4COLLOIDALSILVER@yahoogroups.com, "Francie" <francieww@...> wrote:
>
> I guess my question really is why is it clear as soon as the cs is ready, but
becomes hazy
if it's sitting on the light for 10 minutes or longer after turning off. 
(Unless the light goes
out but it's not really turning off...?)
>
> francie
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
>
> Thanks David - I forgot that you're also the one to ask!  I can easily see
through it - in
fact I can only really see the cloudiness when it's sitting on the silver puppy
stand with the
light still on.  Do you think that's impurities, or would the cloudiness be more
pronounced?  I hope it's not that.  And why would it only happen if I don't
remove the rods
immediately?  Ten minutes later there are long strands from one of the rods, and
it's got
this mild cloudiness....
>
> (I try to be really careful with detergent, but I have only one choice in
water, one
suggested by Mike so it should be okay, although he later changed to something
else.)
>
> thanks again,
> francie
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
>
>
> From: alchemysa
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 10:38 PM
> Cloudiness means the water contains impurities. (salts).
>
> Pure water may go a tiny bit grey or yellow if you run the gen too
> long, but it doesn't go cloudy, it still remains 'clear'. If its going
> cloudy (white/grey) then you should try different water. And make sure
> you havent got detergent remnants in the brewing jar.
>
> David
>

Francie

You were right the first time.  Ode IS the one to ask. I was just butting in.
I'm sure he'll add
his bit.

But I wouldn't have any concerns about using that CS. If its clear its fine. Its
certainly good
enough for your animals.  But the best thing to do if you have problems is to
give the jars
a good warm rinse (with no detergent) and try a different water. You must have
some
alternative water somewhere. You can use distilled, demineralised, de-ionised,
or reverse
osmosis. What brand/type are you using at the moment?

David






--- In 4COLLOIDALSILVER@yahoogroups.com, "Francie" <francieww@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks David - I forgot that you're also the one to ask!  I can easily see
through it - in
fact I can only really see the cloudiness when it's sitting on the silver puppy
stand with the
light still on.  Do you think that's impurities, or would the cloudiness be more
pronounced?  I hope it's not that.  And why would it only happen if I don't
remove the rods
immediately?  Ten minutes later there are long strands from one of the rods, and
it's got
this mild cloudiness....
>
> (I try to be really careful with detergent, but I have only one choice in
water, one
suggested by Mike so it should be okay, although he later changed to something
else.)
>
> thanks again,
> francie
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
>
>
> From: alchemysa
> Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 10:38 PM
>
>
> Cloudiness means the water contains impurities. (salts).
>
> Pure water may go a tiny bit grey or yellow if you run the gen too
> long, but it doesn't go cloudy, it still remains 'clear'. If its going
> cloudy (white/grey) then you should try different water. And make sure
> you havent got detergent remnants in the brewing jar.
>
> David
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
>
>
> "Francie" <francieww@> wrote:
> >
> > I have a silver puppy (older version; light bulb underneath; no
> stirrer).  Usually I lift the rods out of the water now and then and
> keep an eye on it so that I can remove the rods the moment the cs is
> done.  If I forget about it and leave it there, it turns off as it's
> meant to, but the cs turns cloudy.  I use that for various things, but
> I don't give it to my animals or me.  I've now accidentally done that
> twice in a row so I have too much of it, and am wondering about the
> cloudiness.
> >
> > Why does it become cloudy, and does that matter?
> >
> > thanks for any replies,
> > francie
>

Cloudiness means the water contains impurities. (salts).

Pure water may go a tiny bit grey or yellow if you run the gen too
long, but it doesn't go cloudy, it still remains 'clear'. If its going
cloudy (white/grey) then you should try different water. And make sure
you havent got detergent remnants in the brewing jar.

David




--- In 4COLLOIDALSILVER@yahoogroups.com, "Francie" <francieww@...> wrote:
>
> I have a silver puppy (older version; light bulb underneath; no
stirrer).  Usually I lift the rods out of the water now and then and
keep an eye on it so that I can remove the rods the moment the cs is
done.  If I forget about it and leave it there, it turns off as it's
meant to, but the cs turns cloudy.  I use that for various things, but
I don't give it to my animals or me.  I've now accidentally done that
twice in a row so I have too much of it, and am wondering about the
cloudiness.
>
> Why does it become cloudy, and does that matter?
>
> thanks for any replies,
> francie
>

Well, DAMN. Where were you guys when I needed you???
I owned a small business for years. No matter how I handled it, I had
to pay taxes on income every year. It was no different than receiving
a paycheck. Well, actually, it was worse.

Definition of a SMALL business: Gross income of less than $250,000 -
choke, gasp, wheeze, faint!

Paula